Pre-fit barrel alignment

memilanuk

memilanuk

F'ing nuke
Full Member
Minuteman
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Mar 23, 2002
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1,260
East Wenatchee WA
#1
So... over the years I've used, removed, installed, replaced a fair few 'pre-fit' barrels - almost all Savage barrel nut style, though. Along the way, via the school of hard knocks, I found out about the joys of barrels... not always pointing where you want them to - as in having to use up most of your windage or elevation (or both) to get the gun zeroed. *Especially* with factory nuts and lugs. Switching to quality aftermarket lugs - surface ground flat and parallel - and aftermarket barrel nuts, with the mating surface machined perpendicular to the axis of the threads, made a *huge* difference. Basically eliminated it, in my experience.

Fast forward to more recently... I've got a couple barrel-nut pre-fits - one a Proof CF, and the other a Shilen, both with aftermarket nuts - and an Origin action. And they both 'point' about 5-6 mils off to the left :oops:

I didn't really notice it at first, because the first scope (Bushnell XRSii 4.5-30x) I had on that gun with the first barrel (Proof CF 6.5CM) had a wider range of adjustment, so I never really bumped into the edge of the range of travel. The second barrel (NSS/Shilen 223 Rem) actually points a little less off to the side, so I didn't notice that one either, even when I changed the scope out for a Burris XTRiii 5.5-30x. But when I swapped back to the Proof barrel, I got it zeroed... but started having all kinds of problems with the scope not following the adjustments, or randomly changing POI.

After taking everything apart - barrel off, rail off, scopes out of the rings, etc. - and not finding anything loose, I put it back together with the Burris scope and Proof barrel. Since it'd been completely disassembled, I figured I'd stick the bore sighter on it, and holy $hit 🤬 I was about 3 clicks off the far left side of the windage travel. Swapped out the Burris for the Bushnell, and while it wasn't up against the edge of it's range, it was definitely way, way further over than I would like. Pulled the Proof barrel and put the Shilen back on. As mentioned earlier, it didn't point *quite* as far over, enough so that the Burris would actually work with it. Barely.

FWIW, both barrels have the nuts (red) loctite'd on, after setting the headspace with the appropriate gauges.

Unfortunately, I don't have a *shouldered* barrel handy for this action to test this out further. Might be able to borrow one from someone local.

I'm *pretty* sure the face of the receiver, the face of the nut(s), and both sides of the lug were as clean as I could get them. Not sure what else might be the culprit as far as pushing both barrels over that far. Or more specifically... I can think of a few things, but I'm really not liking the direction those thoughts are headed.

Curious what else folks here think might be the cause - or the solution.
 
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#4
If the barrel nuts were not loctited, you could rotate the barrels 180º and see where they point.

Also, what was the vertical deviation?

Interesting coincidence, I just got back from shooting a new Origin with a new Shilen using a NSS ground nut. I did not mechanically zero the scope as I do sometimes when putting new stuff together. Now, I'm wondering.
 
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#5
anon said:
If the barrel nuts were not loctited, you could rotate the barrels 180º and see where they point.
Click to expand...

Trust me, I'm kicking myself over that right now :rolleyes:

I mean, not really, in that having spent years and years faffing about with barrel nuts and go/no-gauges, having the nut 'fixed' once I have the headspace where *I* want it is very, very nice. It's just that in this particular situation, I literally just loctite'd the nut on the Proof CF barrel a couple days before I started clueing in as to what the problem might be. And when I realized I'd just cut off one of my avenues of troubleshooting... yes, there were a *lot* of bad words in the shop that night.

If push comes to shove, I guess I can always heat up the nut on the NSS/Shilen barrel and loose that one up. Not sure I want to do that with the Proof CF barrel until it's ready for permanent retirement - I've seen people mention that putting that kind of heat on/around the carbon fiber is a no-no?

A friend loaned me a shouldered pre-fit to test / see where it 'points', so I'll try that either tonight or tomorrow night, depending on how things go.

what was the vertical deviation?
Click to expand...

Not that much. Or more specifically, not enough that I was worried about it, compared to the windage where I was right up against the edge of travel.
 
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#9
Well... nuts.

Got home, took the gun apart, pulled the NSS/Shilen barrel off, put the loaner shouldered pre-fit barrel on, put everything back together and... it's still pointing way the heck off to one side.

Both scopes are pointing pretty much the same place as they were on the NSS/Shilen barrel - the Burris XTR III is just off the left edge of travel, the Bushnell XRS ii is way over, but not butted up against the edge. The difference seems to be that the XRS has two full revolutions of windage (20 mil), where the Burris has only one revolution (10 mil)* - at least at this point in the field, sitting on a 20 moa rail.

* I know their website says 15 mil, but I'm getting a couple clicks over exactly one revolution, so...

Also, I checked the lug real quick with a micrometer; it's within a tenth (0.2500-0.2501") all the way around the hoop. I guess it could still not be 'flat', but I'm not really equipped to measure that. Beyond that... it sure seems like it's got to be in the action somewhere 🤷‍♂️

I'll reach out to Zermatt and see what they say, but at this point, for an action purchased in late 2018 / early 2019 I'm not really sure what to expect.

Might just be time to put it back the way it was Originally (pun intended!), with the Proof CF 6.5CM barrel and the Bushnell XRSii 4.5-30x with its gobs of windage, and just leave it alone. Everything was fine (ie blissfully ignorant) until I tried changing the scope.
 
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#11
This is a little more than that... but it does raise an interesting question: what's considered reasonable, and what's considered 'too much'?

I ask because I have a Solus on order, and you can be *very* sure that I will be paying closer attention to this sort of thing when it gets in.
 
#12
This probably doesn't apply but I'll throw it out there just in case. I bought a benchrest rifle off a guy and at some point realized the scope windage was a few clicks off one of the extreme endpoints. To make a long story short, it was the two-piece rings that were the problem.
 
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#13
@memilanuk This is Ray with Zermatt hes a good dude and I am pretty sure if its an action issue he will get you squared away @Zermatt Arms
I had an issue with a RimX action and Ray got me taken care of in a week, I can't say enough good about Ray and his team.

Also like @ShtrRdy said if you haven't tried swapping rings/mount you may want to. I got a smoken deal on a vortex scope in a warren mount off another site...long story short...windage bottomed out left and still had to hold 5 more mils to get on paper...checked the tracking and the reticle moved so threw it in a set of rings and was 2/10s left of center of windage adjustment...then I knew why it was such a god deal.
 
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#14
Is there any chance you have another complete set of Origin optic rail and rings you can try? If something happened to the rail or its screws during the work, even though you've re-torqued it, it might be pointing off to one side or another. Same story with the rings - if you've swapped scopes but not yet swapped rings, could easily be that the rings got damaged somehow along the way.

Certainly let Zermatt take a look at it if they offer to, but if you have another complete set of rail/rings, could be an easy thing to rule out before shipping the action and waiting.
 
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#15
The XRSii is in Seekins 34mm rings; the XTRiii is in Vortex Precision Matched 34 mm rings (afaik, made for Vortex by Seekins). Somehow the odds of both of them pointing the same direction, the same amount seems... low. I guess I could flip one set around and see if they point back to center, or off to the right. Could it be that easy? God, that would be nice for a change!

The rail is the Origin pinned rail, so I don't really have another pinned rail (99% of everything else in the shop still fits a Savage of some flavor) to test against.
 
#16
Ok, good info. That seems to be a good alibi for your rings... but does make me start to wonder about that optic rail. I know you removed and re-torqued it, I'm not suggesting it's loose, I'm just worried some part of that system took some damage somehow.

Honestly, if you don't have another rail, it almost doesn't matter if it's the rail or some other part of the action that's not happy. I'd let Zermatt take a look for you and see if they can help.
 
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#17
The rail was never touched from the time I got the action and put everything together, until recently, when I finally tore everything apart and removed and checked every fastener trying to figure out WTF was going on. So if there was a problem with the rail (or action), it was there before the last few iterations of scope/barrel swaps. There were a time or two, looking back at my notes, that I had to put more work than expected into sighting in the gun when changing barrels/scopes, having to resort to dirt berm impacts to get on paper because it was pointing way off, that sort of thing. Wasn't until I started running out of adjustment, or more specifically, getting erratic movements and/or POI shifts that I started questioning what was going on. Which started this whole trip down the rabbit hole...
 
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#19
What stock/chassis is it in?
Can you see if the barrel is evenly spaced in that channel and pointing true and straight?
It’s not free floated and all that jazz, right?
(Assuming it wasn’t custom sanded to fit making centerline determination not possible)
Triggers not impinging and rotating/lifting the action on the stock?
 
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#20
memilanuk said:
Well... nuts.

Got home, took the gun apart, pulled the NSS/Shilen barrel off, put the loaner shouldered pre-fit barrel on, put everything back together and... it's still pointing way the heck off to one side.

Both scopes are pointing pretty much the same place as they were on the NSS/Shilen barrel - the Burris XTR III is just off the left edge of travel, the Bushnell XRS ii is way over, but not butted up against the edge. The difference seems to be that the XRS has two full revolutions of windage (20 mil), where the Burris has only one revolution (10 mil)* - at least at this point in the field, sitting on a 20 moa rail.

* I know their website says 15 mil, but I'm getting a couple clicks over exactly one revolution, so...

Also, I checked the lug real quick with a micrometer; it's within a tenth (0.2500-0.2501") all the way around the hoop. I guess it could still not be 'flat', but I'm not really equipped to measure that. Beyond that... it sure seems like it's got to be in the action somewhere 🤷‍♂️

I'll reach out to Zermatt and see what they say, but at this point, for an action purchased in late 2018 / early 2019 I'm not really sure what to expect.

Might just be time to put it back the way it was Originally (pun intended!), with the Proof CF 6.5CM barrel and the Bushnell XRSii 4.5-30x with its gobs of windage, and just leave it alone. Everything was fine (ie blissfully ignorant) until I tried changing the scope.
Click to expand...

@Zermatt Arms will get you squared away if the issue is on their end. I wouldn't be concerned about that.
 
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#21
kthomas said:
@Zermatt Arms will get you squared away if the issue is on their end. I wouldn't be concerned about that.
Click to expand...
If, the issue is in the action I agree, they will take care of it. They are fantastic. I'd flip the front and back ring 180 degrees and try it, and then swap the front and back rings, then flip 180 degrees one ring at a time and try that as well.
 
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#22
spife7980 said:
What stock/chassis is it in?
Click to expand...
McMillan A6 adjustable PRS

spife7980 said:
Can you see if the barrel is evenly spaced in that channel and pointing true and straight?
Click to expand...
The barrel looks generally centered in the channel. Definitely not touching on either side; I can take a 3x5 note card wrap it around the barrel and run it all the way down to the barrel nut with no interference.

spife7980 said:
It’s not free floated and all that jazz, right?
(Assuming it wasn’t custom sanded to fit making centerline determination not possible)
Click to expand...
Not sure what you're asking here.

spife7980 said:
Triggers not impinging and rotating/lifting the action on the stock?
Click to expand...
The barreled action drops in and out of the stock without binding.
 
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#25
I've got an origin and I like it. Having said that, the chances of having 2 crooked barrel, or 2 crooked nuts, or 2 sets of bad rings is pretty small. I was always led to believe that tolerance in thread fitment will allow action/lug/barrel shoulder square-ness to keep things straight. If both barrels are crooked in same direction, makes it hard to blame 2 things, vs the 1 action.
 
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#26
memilanuk said:
Well... nuts.

Got home, took the gun apart, pulled the NSS/Shilen barrel off, put the loaner shouldered pre-fit barrel on, put everything back together and... it's still pointing way the heck off to one side.

Both scopes are pointing pretty much the same place as they were on the NSS/Shilen barrel - the Burris XTR III is just off the left edge of travel, the Bushnell XRS ii is way over, but not butted up against the edge. The difference seems to be that the XRS has two full revolutions of windage (20 mil), where the Burris has only one revolution (10 mil)* - at least at this point in the field, sitting on a 20 moa rail.

* I know their website says 15 mil, but I'm getting a couple clicks over exactly one revolution, so...

Also, I checked the lug real quick with a micrometer; it's within a tenth (0.2500-0.2501") all the way around the hoop. I guess it could still not be 'flat', but I'm not really equipped to measure that. Beyond that... it sure seems like it's got to be in the action somewhere 🤷‍♂️

I'll reach out to Zermatt and see what they say, but at this point, for an action purchased in late 2018 / early 2019 I'm not really sure what to expect.

Might just be time to put it back the way it was Originally (pun intended!), with the Proof CF 6.5CM barrel and the Bushnell XRSii 4.5-30x with its gobs of windage, and just leave it alone. Everything was fine (ie blissfully ignorant) until I tried changing the scope.
Click to expand...
Quit wasting time. The front face of the action is not perpendicular to the centerline datum.

Get it faced so that it becomes perpendicular. Pay what you need to pay.
 
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#28
memilanuk said:
Not gonna lie... that thought has been percolating through my head the last few days.

The question in my mind is "what will that do to it's ability to take pre-fit barrels?" Better? Worse?
Click to expand...
That depends entirely on face runout because that will tell how much length needs to come off the face from the high point to square it up. And it's extremely likely that you don't have an action fixture that you can use to rotate it about centerline to measure it.

Your best bet is to send it off and accept the fact that you might be limited to nut prefits from then on.
 
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#31
BuildingConceptsllc said:
Call Ray tomorrow before you do anything else. My experience as well as countless others is extremely great with Zermatt and Ray.
Click to expand...
Not sure why anyone would not make that plan A and B, C, D ect. Zermatt does have a great rep for customer service, they have earned it, take advantage of it.
 
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#33
Zermatt went thru the action pretty much the same day they got it on their end. From the emails and phone conversations, it sounds like they checked everything out; nothing was out of spec from normal. As an aside, they said it had one of the last few 'gen 1' bolts (whatever that means) so they updated the appropriate parts on that.

Still waiting for the action to get out of 'jail' back on this end. With the holidays... probably won't get it til after the first of the year.

When I get it back, I'm planning to mount up one or both of my nutted pre-fits (both have the nut loctite'd at this point) and check both scopes out again... but with the barrel in a vise, not in any stock. The original bedding job extended up around the barrel nut on the Proof CF barrel, and the current thought is that any change in the position of that nut from one mounting to the next, or to a different barrel nut (like on the NSS/Shilen barrel) might be enough to 'push' or tension things off to one side. Dunno, we'll see. Also, I now have another stock - KRG Bravo gen 2 - that is unbedded to drop the barreled action into and see if the 'problem' persists there.

And just to add another wrinkle to things... the old bore sighter / 'collimator' that I have gave me some weirdness on another gun - one where the barrel/action have never been apart, and I'm *pretty* sure the scope hasn't been off it either - but it was suddenly saying the scope needed dialed way off to one (the other) side. Usually that's mainly a matter of playing with how the spud sits in the muzzle, and getting it to behave consistently. It didn't seem to want to play nice this time, for whatever reason.

I'm sure there'll be a bunch of people that will jump on that and say "See? See? There's the problem all along!" To which I'd say... maybe. Just remember, this all *started* because I was trying to track down a *physical* problem with the gun not holding POA, and not tracking as expected. It was only *after* literally tearing the gun apart and not finding anything that the bore sighter came into play.

If anything... I'm starting to question the Burris XTRiii more than anything else. Things didn't immediately go to hell when I put it on with the NSS/Shilen .223 Rem barrel... but when I swapped the Proof CF 6.5CM barrel back in, and put that scope back on... things went down hill from there. But there remains the question of how/why two scopes and three barrels all 'appear' to point off to the one side, approximately the same amount.
 
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#34
Keep on keepin on until you figure it out. There are some experts and very good troubleshooters on here, just have to winnow through some BS to get to them. Sounds like you are on the right track. I’m interested in the outcome, not too proud to learn from others and I have several Origin and Solus actions.

I’ve run into issues so many times, I bought a fixed 10x scope and keep it in mounts just to isolate scope issues when troubleshooting rifles. Saves me a lot of headaches but I worked on a lot of rifles.
 
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#35
Funny you should mention that... I was thinking the other day that I still have my 'troubleshooter' scope somewhere in the back of a cabinet here somewhere. Laugh if you want, but it's an old SWFA fixed 16x scope that used to get pulled out when my 'good' scopes (Leupold, then later Nightforce) would act up on occasion. Might be time to dust that bad boy off again...
 
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#36
If you decide you need to move the locktited nuts on the carbon fiber barrel, I’ve used a paint strip gun to control the heat. I haven’t used it on CF. I would maybe consider using one of the big soldering iron “guns” and put the tip against the nut for better control to keep as much of the heat as possible in just the nut.
Good luck and update please when you figure out something.
 
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#37
I think you are on the right track. Using your head. Eliminate the variables one at a time.
Continue on down the line.

-Swap to the Bravo2 stock. Eliminates or confirms bedding around nut.

-Swap to 16x scope ,w rings hopefully, confirm or eliminate optics and rings.

Doesn’t have to be in that order, swap whichever is easiest first.

Additional-
Take your old scopes off the rifle. Place the objective flat against a mirror and shine a light on the mirror. Look inside, you will see the crosshair and a reflection shadow crosshair. Adjust the scope E & W knobs until the two meet and match. You are now optically centered. Remount the scope. You mentioned a vice, put the barreled action in a vise and bore sight on a target or landmark, check the scope POA keeping in mind the 20 moa rail. If it’s that far off to the side you should be able to see it at 100 yards or more. Repeat with the other scope?

If it’s off to the side, back the barrel and locktite nut off 180 degrees. Look again boresighting and see if there is a shift.

If all matches, put the barreled action and scope back in the original stock and bore sight again to repeat looking for side shift from the bedded nut or bedding job.

Hire a witch doctor.
 
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#38
My thought would be that it's far more likely that the pinned rail is out of alignment than there being something wrong with the action body. Machining a square face and square lugs on the action tube is a pretty simple task that is unlikely to go wrong in the CNC manufacturing process.

My guess is that there could be tolerance stacking with the pins for the rail, because those are multiple sets of holes drilled on each part that are supposed to align with the action body centerline. Trying another scope rail would be a good way to check for this.
 
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#39
I believe they (Zermatt) checked the rail alignment also... actually I think their words were "the squareness of the rail on the receiver body".

But it's a good point, and if I don't find the solution otherwise I'll have to see about borrowing a rail from someone local to try out.
 
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#40
I’d pull your barreled-action and then reset it in the stock making sure that the lug is up against the back of the slot by bouncing it on the butt-pad on the floor a couple/few times. Once you are sure the action’s recoil lug is flat up against where it needs to be, torque your front action screw first, then the rear action screw… that could be all it is.

I little while back I thought I had a scope that wasn’t holding zero because my zero changed wildly between range trips, and then I remembered that I’d swapped barrels in a rush and probably just tightened the action screws in no particular order… once I reset my barreled action and made sure to make sure my recoil lug was seated properly and remembered to tighten the front action screw first, voila, problem solved (and I felt like a dumbass lol).
 
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#42
kravi said:
Any news on this? Genuinely curious as to causality here!
Click to expand...

You and me both :rolleyes:

Got the action, took it home, screwed one barrel on, with scope A. Put it in the bench vise, no stock. Still pointed the same damn place - ~5 mils right. Took that scope off, put on scope B (FWIW, both had been mechanically centered at the start of the session). Same damn thing. Took that scope off, put the other barrel on with scope A. Same. Scope B. Same.

So... not saying that the original stock bedding doesn't have some areas that need addressed, but I think that's a separate issue and not a part of whatever fuckery is going on here.

Said 'fuck it' and put the first barrel (NSS/Shilen nutted .223 Rem, 26" med. Palma) and scope A (Burris XTRiii 5.5-30x) back on, and dropped it in the KRG Bravo. Took it to the range and... of course, this time of year, it's about 50/50 whether I can even *see* all the way to the 100yd targets. Had to go over to the 50yd pistol/carbine bay to bore sight it. Ended up... almost f'ing centered for windage, maybe 1 mil off by the time I got it on paper @ 100 when the high fog/low clouds cleared a little. Gun shot... okay, but then again the conditions were far from ideal.

Around about the same time, I got a lightly used Proof CF 20" .308 Win shouldered pre-fit. Boresighter/collimator seemed to put it close to the same POA as the NSS/Shilen barrel. Cleaned the snot out of it, grabbed a box of factory Berger 185 OTM, and got up to the range (another day). Still chilly, but better visibility. When I got it on paper, it was pretty much *exactly* centered. But...

Something just seems 'off' about that scope. Between the two sessions (30rds for the .223, 20 for the .308) there were multiple times where I'd shoot a group, look at the grid on target or use the reticle and decide I needed to come over X amount, and up Y amount. And every time, the corrections would way over shoot where I was aiming for.

Part of me want to put the .223 barrel back on, and just box-test the fuck out of this scope - and the Bushnell XRSii 4.5-30x, just for comparison. Hell, even drag out one of my old NF 12-42x scopes for a sanity check. The other part... thinks I should probably put the 6.5CM barrel back on, and see where it *actually* prints on paper with the Bushnell XRSii, vs. where it prints with the Burris XTRiii. Then box test it with *that*.

That's where things went off the rails to begin with: the Burris XTRiii on the Proof 6.5CM barrel not holding POA, not tracking as expected, and generally acting like it'd ran into the inside of the tube. *That* was why I originally tore the whole f'ing gun apart, and as a result of taking the scope out of the rings, that was why I stuck the boresighter/collimator in there to check.

At this point I don't *think* it's anything to do with the action. I don't think the stock / bedding was the primary culprit, though I'm guessing the bedding around the one nut might have caused some issues with the other nut. I also don't think the barrels or the nuts themselves are the root cause here either - the one shouldered pre-fit that I borrowed earlier 'pointed' the same place as the two nutted barrels, and so far the shouldered Proof barrel I have now 'prints' the same place as the NSS/Shilen nutted barrel.

I'm leaning towards it being a conspiracy between that damn Burris scope, and the boresighter. The one acted all fucky, which led me to tear down things, and the other - for some reason - has started pointing off to one side or the other.

So... no definitive answers yet, as far as I can tell. If someone else can suss out something from the above, I'm all ears.
 
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#45
memilanuk said:
Got the action, took it home, screwed one barrel on, with scope A.
Click to expand...
Curious...why was this action not just sent directly to your house?
memilanuk said:
That's not how that kind of boresighter works.
Click to expand...
No...but you can pretty much do this without any sort of device other than the rifle and a vise. Remove the bolt, clamp the rifle, use the scope to "bullseye" something at about 27 yards, now look down the barrel.
 
#46
Aftermath said:
Curious...why was this action not just sent directly to your house?
Click to expand...
Because WA state sucks.
Aftermath said:
No...but you can pretty much do this without any sort of device other than the rifle and a vise. Remove the bolt, clamp the rifle, use the scope to "bullseye" something at about 27 yards, now look down the barrel.
Click to expand...

While our part of the state is not at all like the Seattle/Tacoma/Olympia cesspool that drives the laws in this state... I generally try not to point my gun out the window/door towards my neighbors yard / animals / kids. There's just enough people migrating over from the coast that it could go poorly if the wrong person *thought* they saw something.

That said... I can probably find a way to rig something up that is discrete enough to avoid problems.

at about 27 yards
Click to expand...
That's... oddly specific.
 
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