They added a sportsman (Beretta) division
13.5 lbs 6.5
Discuss ?
13.5 lbs 6.5
Discuss ?
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The Sportsman Division
- Thread starter Lowlight
- Start date
I like it. Means I can shoot my coyote/deer rifle I hunt with against competitors that have real solid shooting skills. Saves running 2 guns PRS and NRL hunter.
I really hope I'm wrong, but my initial thought is that it's just another trophy for MD's to pony up for. I'm skeptical that shooting the same COF with the setup specified in the rules will change anything or bring new people in, but again, I hope I'm wrong for the sake of the sport.
IDK if I'll ever compete in it, but IMHO, coming from a USPSA background, at least it's a step in the right direction towards having some sort of a semi-legit Production Division seeing as the existing PRS "Production Division" is a total f'ing joke.
I mean Open is Open, and it's cool if guys want to run 30+lb Dashers or whatever, and even so, I know it's mostly about the Indian than the arrow...
But, that said, I think it's good to have a division where the arms race is somewhat capped and everyone is at least nearly on the same playing field as far as the gun is concerned.
I mean, JMHO, but in many ways I liked/like, learned more, and knew where I stood among the competition as a shooter
better, when shooting USPSA Production Division with my nearly stock Glock 17 with irons... more than I ever have shooting Carry Optics with my ~19lb tricked-out CZ against some of the other guys running similar blaster/boat-anchors we'd never actually carry IRL (with some running fake/dummy flashlights filled with lead and shit lol).
I mean Open is Open, and it's cool if guys want to run 30+lb Dashers or whatever, and even so, I know it's mostly about the Indian than the arrow...
But, that said, I think it's good to have a division where the arms race is somewhat capped and everyone is at least nearly on the same playing field as far as the gun is concerned.
I mean, JMHO, but in many ways I liked/like, learned more, and knew where I stood among the competition as a shooter
better, when shooting USPSA Production Division with my nearly stock Glock 17 with irons... more than I ever have shooting Carry Optics with my ~19lb tricked-out CZ against some of the other guys running similar blaster/boat-anchors we'd never actually carry IRL (with some running fake/dummy flashlights filled with lead and shit lol).
Seems pretty cool to me.
Weight limit is 13lb but that includes your magazine, so it's pretty much the same as an NRL Hunter open light gun (12lb max). It also encompasses most 6.5 Creed sporting rifles that an average Joe would buy at Sportsmans Warehouse, and that's a HUGE chunk of the market of rifles sold.
I think this is a division that has a lot of draw for a regular guy looking to try the sport and not be at a big gear disadvantage. A full blown custom 13lb 6.5 creed that shoots half inch groups is not that much of an advantage over an off the shelf 6.5 creed of the same weight that shoots 3/4" groups with quality handloads. Especially in comparison to a 23lb 6mm Dasher.
Hopefully it makes it easier to invite new people into the sport. Will there be some top level shooters who play in the division for fun, or to win the trophy? Sure. But I bet there will also be a group of new shooters who want to come play with their hunting rifle and compete against likeminded peers.
My NRL Hunter Open Light gun meets the criteria perfectly, and I'd actually thought about shooting it at a PRS match for fun even before they announced this division.
Weight limit is 13lb but that includes your magazine, so it's pretty much the same as an NRL Hunter open light gun (12lb max). It also encompasses most 6.5 Creed sporting rifles that an average Joe would buy at Sportsmans Warehouse, and that's a HUGE chunk of the market of rifles sold.
I think this is a division that has a lot of draw for a regular guy looking to try the sport and not be at a big gear disadvantage. A full blown custom 13lb 6.5 creed that shoots half inch groups is not that much of an advantage over an off the shelf 6.5 creed of the same weight that shoots 3/4" groups with quality handloads. Especially in comparison to a 23lb 6mm Dasher.
Hopefully it makes it easier to invite new people into the sport. Will there be some top level shooters who play in the division for fun, or to win the trophy? Sure. But I bet there will also be a group of new shooters who want to come play with their hunting rifle and compete against likeminded peers.
My NRL Hunter Open Light gun meets the criteria perfectly, and I'd actually thought about shooting it at a PRS match for fun even before they announced this division.
The same people that win in other PRS classes are going to win this division as well. This is basically another gear race, there is no price limit and customs are allowed. Because of that it's a little pointless really, a bit like how production class is just another rando trophy to hand out.
How can we sell more rifles? I got it! Sportsman division! Lol
Well GA Precision probably has a new rifle to sell haha
Well a picture of George holding a custom rifle with a Manners LRH, carbon fiber barrel was in the offocial division announcement post on Facebook so...
I mean GAP and MPA killed the Production Division so why not create a new one for them to sell more rifles lolWell a picture of George holding a custom rifle with a Manners LRH, carbon fiber barrel was in the offocial division announcement post on Facebook so...
I like it. Closer to stock car racing. Do anything you want inside the weight and caliber limits. It will still take a really fundamentally good shooter to execute consistently behind a 13 pound 6.5 CM. No hiding behind weight or low recoil. Buy it from George or build it yourself. That’s the same choice faced by every shooter of any of the games.
Also, I know I’ve avoided certain games (the various “hunter” stuff) because it would mean making another rifle to meet the weight limits. It seems like this is a way to invite NRL guys in without asking them to either accept a huge handicap or build yet another $5000 dollar rifle.
It doesn’t have to be one versus the other.
Also, I know I’ve avoided certain games (the various “hunter” stuff) because it would mean making another rifle to meet the weight limits. It seems like this is a way to invite NRL guys in without asking them to either accept a huge handicap or build yet another $5000 dollar rifle.
It doesn’t have to be one versus the other.
This is what happened to sillouette rifles...
TLDR...you rifle is now lighter, but its basically another open class rifle.
The weight is a limit, so what happens is the rifle builders start moving the weight around. You need UL parts here and weighted parts there, etc. Ultiately everything stock is replaced from heel to toe.
The search is for "balance" @ the best combination of fast stabilizing and flat-recoiling.
Even if the actual matches in this Division end up being less than desirable, the new gear produced will be interesting.
-Stan
-Stan
The one part that seems to be missing is ultralight FFP optics with reliable dialing turrets/RTZ,etc. You go to 20oz from 26-32 and thats more 6-12 more oz in weight you can add to other places, eg the barrel profile or stiffen the chassis/forend, etc.
I like this but just am wondering why 6.5 creed only?
Other rounds are used by sportsmen. This makes no sense.
But other than this I like it.
Other rounds are used by sportsmen. This makes no sense.
But other than this I like it.
Could be cool as long as top pros stay out of it and let the newer shooters play. Also I think it needs to be only one day with a reduced entry fee, and maybe larger targets. similar rules/allowances to what AMs get at the Grind maybe?
There's two parts to this issue...
1) Are the same people going to win?
Yes, absolutely. The experienced competitors who have invested time and money into traveling and shooting matches, burning through ammo, and practicing over multiple years are going to be WAY better at this sport. You don't get good at PRS without a lot of experience and practice and that takes money and time - a lot of it. I'd bet the annual ammo, match and travel costs for the average high level PRS shooter significantly exceeds their investment in equipment.
2) Is this new division going to be another gear race?
Not really. Yes, there will be an advantage to having a nicer custom rifle that shoots a bit better than a factory gun. But once you have a ~3/4 MOA gun with a magazine and a muzzle brake and an adequate scope you're pretty competitive against everyone else with 13lb rifles. And it's not hard for someone to put together a rig like that with stuff you could buy at Sportsmans Warehouse. Who knows, maybe @AlwineArcher will get bored with production and come skull drag the field with a Savage Axis or Predator.
So yes, there will be a lot of nice shiny custom lightweight rifles, and dudes with a lot of experience - who have the money to both play this game and to buy nice rifles - will probably win. But not because it's a gear race.
I first saw the title and it piqued my interest. That lasted up to the caliber restriction. Personally, I have a couple of custom hunting rifles in 22-250 fast twist and 7-08 that would work with a scope swap but don’t meet the caliber requirement. 
That being said, it is a new direction that can help bring in shooters who are on the fence. This is said by a USPSA Single Stack shooter FWIW.
That being said, it is a new direction that can help bring in shooters who are on the fence. This is said by a USPSA Single Stack shooter FWIW.
Maybe allow TAC calibers like .223 and .308 as caliber options?
I get the idea of keep-it-simple tho.
I get the idea of keep-it-simple tho.
Now I can take my Tikka action that I put in an MDT and made weigh 20 lbs, put it back in the factory stock and bam, sportsman’s class lol
@Lowlight you should make your team exclusively “Sportsman”. See if you can get Hornady to come in with help on the ammo. You could dispel the myth that custom wildcats, heavy weights, and reloading have anything to do with match success.
Also, you wouldn’t have to distinguish between PRs, nrl, ultimate hunter, etc. since all the shooters would be equipped for any of it (essentially, maybe not exactly).
Also, you wouldn’t have to distinguish between PRs, nrl, ultimate hunter, etc. since all the shooters would be equipped for any of it (essentially, maybe not exactly).
There are two issues with your reply:
1. We keep talking about low barrier to entry for new shooters
When PRS is allowing customs and no price limit then that becomes a gear race. You can say it won't all you want, George is literally illusttating this point right in the division announcement. There are plently of gamer rifles optimized for NRL already. PRS is a gear whore's dream with a high cost entry and that tends to be a barrier to getting new people interested.
It's redundant and stupid to remake another production division again. We all know that is really a joke now with gamer guns like the GAP PPR and MPA's Rifles permitted. Really we don't need more trophies to hand to the Doug Koenigs of the shooting world.
2. This is about business
I don't disagree it takes time, resources and effort to become a good shooter. We already have that.
For PRS as a business this is partly intended to solicit NRL hunter shooters. Come shoot PRS with your existing rifle. That also undercuts new shooters as in #1 but also helps to undercut NRL. Aside from the league itself, this is also defintitely going to sell more carbon barrels, stocks, lighweight, high end scopes and so on. In a way it'a a great way to drum up business. I have no doubt that some manufacturers will respond to demand for specialized stuff.
To your points if they had:
1. Limited it to factory rifles
2. Put a cap on price to avoid PPR repeats
3. Allowed for other 'sporting' calibers
It probably would have been a lot more successful in potentially recruiting new people. That feels a bit more like a hollow talking point at this point.
I like the weight limit personally, probably because I already have a setup around that weight. Shot my first match last year with it and honestly my misses were all wind calls, doubt having an extra 10lbs would’ve given me any more impacts. For people like me, probably the minority, it works because I won’t shoot enough matches to really justify a gamer gun specifically for PRS. Then again, I can shoot what I got in open so maybe it doesn’t matter. Guess I’d be in a smaller division tho so I could get the false sense of accomplishment by “placing higher” in my class 
Sportsman division
1. Long action cartridges of at least 270 caliber.
2. Blind or hinged floor plate magazines
3. No brakes
4. SFP optics with crosshair reticles only. Duplex is acceptable. No ranging, milling, or “Christmas” tree reticles.
5. Rifles must be able to hit a pie plate 3 times at 100 yards. Any rifle capable of MOA or better accuracy will be disqualified. (In)Accuracy will be confirmed by an independent tester at the match.
1. Long action cartridges of at least 270 caliber.
2. Blind or hinged floor plate magazines
3. No brakes
4. SFP optics with crosshair reticles only. Duplex is acceptable. No ranging, milling, or “Christmas” tree reticles.
5. Rifles must be able to hit a pie plate 3 times at 100 yards. Any rifle capable of MOA or better accuracy will be disqualified. (In)Accuracy will be confirmed by an independent tester at the match.
I think the point is to bring in people who are more hunters or casual shooters than competitors that look at all the gear your average PRS shooter uses and don't want to spend $5000 to lose. They could just call the category "Run What Ya Brung". I think it's great but the caliber may be limiting for some guys that don't have a 6.5cm. maybe it should have included 3-5 common calibers?
FIFY. People are going to bring custom rifles for this division because there is no cap. If they actually wanted to recruit casual shooters or hunters to PRS then why limit it to 6.5 cm when the majority of hunters don't shoot it.
Now they are having a suppressor division too! Yay! More divisions and more trophies at every match which will equal higher match fees! Great way to grow the sport. Lol.
Asking for a friend but when are the 90 degree bolt throw and transgender divisions happening? Lol
Asking for a friend but when are the 90 degree bolt throw and transgender divisions happening? Lol
I am waiting for the Cross-Dominant Divison.
-Stan
-Stan
Yes!! Been shooting that one for decades! Lol
Announced this morning, a special "category" specifically for supressor shooters.
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You guys are a freaking riot. This thread is exactly what I expected it to be.
Seriously though, I like the idea.
I'd like to see the weight a little higher to give some more weight budget for running a suppressor (maybe in line with NRL Hunter's 16lb limit for Open Heavy, though I'm sure many here would say that's too heavy) but I think the division is a step in the right direction.
A Tikka CTR, Leupold Mk4, a decent bipod, a gamechanger, and a case of Berger 6.5 Creed ammo and a guy is in business.
I can see some of my buddies who have avoided PRS actually giving it a try if they can shoot in this division and feel like they're competing against other dudes running basically the same rifle (even if it's built by GAP instead of the Finns) instead of just a bunch of guys with 25lb Dashers.
Seriously though, I like the idea.
I'd like to see the weight a little higher to give some more weight budget for running a suppressor (maybe in line with NRL Hunter's 16lb limit for Open Heavy, though I'm sure many here would say that's too heavy) but I think the division is a step in the right direction.
A Tikka CTR, Leupold Mk4, a decent bipod, a gamechanger, and a case of Berger 6.5 Creed ammo and a guy is in business.
I can see some of my buddies who have avoided PRS actually giving it a try if they can shoot in this division and feel like they're competing against other dudes running basically the same rifle (even if it's built by GAP instead of the Finns) instead of just a bunch of guys with 25lb Dashers.
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Wait a minute? I thought all those dudes with heavy ass 6mm Dashers were cheating because it gave them an unfair advantage...
Now you're telling me that there's no benefit to shooting a heavy rifle, using a benchrest caliber, or handloading ammo?
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Suppressor isn't a divison, it's a separate classification, like Mil/LE, Senior, or Lady (and you can select multiple classifications). So a guy could shoot Open + Suppressor, or Gas gun + Suppressor, or Tac + Suppressor + Mil/LE, so on and so forth.
Because SilencerCo is giving the shooter running a suppressor who places highest at year-end a check for $5000. And also because Ken and some of the other MDs on the rules committee would like to see more folks switch from brakes to cans on their match rifles
Brakes suck for everyone around them, especially ROs.
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A suppressor is far more of a hindrance than Production class is. I don't understand why people are against this one? It's a category option, and nobody is being forced to participate.
If suppressors weren’t NFA items then I’d 100% agree with you. But not all people have access to them. Idk. Overhauling Production would’ve made more sense than these two items but oh well.
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