The Sportsman Division

DeathBeforeDismount · Dec 10, 2024

I just gamed out a meta 13lb rifle build. It would cost about $7200 to build including everything and comes in right at 12.9 lbs with Bipod and Mag.

Then again my Open 24.2lb match rifle came out to a little over $11,000 total and that doesnt include bipod and mag.

See, Sportsman is the budget division. Saves you over $4,000!!!

Lowlight · Dec 10, 2024

Like noted, it shows the production division is a joke

They have no idea how to do this and honestly it only survives by shear will and stupidity

If I had the proper inclination I would create a new series but why bother, it honestly is not worth it in many ways

How do you not promote the bare bones factory rifles as a thing, out of the box, add a bipod, scope and give them a schmedium, call that the beginner kit or something and then hit box stores to add in postcards with every rifle like that sold

It's really a portajohn that has never been cleaned, yet used constantly they just pile the shit on top

DeathBeforeDismount · Dec 10, 2024

Lowlight said:
Like noted, it shows the production division is a joke

They have no idea how to do this and honestly it only survives by shear will and stupidity

If I had the proper inclination I would create a new series but why bother, it honestly is not worth it in many ways

How do you not promote the bare bones factory rifles as a thing, out of the box, add a bipod, scope and give them a schmedium, call that the beginner kit or something and then hit box stores to add in postcards with every rifle like that sold

It's really a portajohn that has never been cleaned, yet used constantly they just pile the shit on top

I think we are going to see movement towards what the IPRF is doing, division wise. As PRS going more international they may try to align the divisions so they match up. Limited would be 308 and Factory doesn't really have a price limit since they can shoot Sako and AI rifles. Not saying its what would be best for the PRS but if there is an international sanctioning body that is picking up steam, I could see it start moving in that direction.

One of the biggest problems is manufactures are not making that rifle. Take all the production rifles under $2500 and they all have serious flaws that don't make them well suited for PRS. It could be done, but they would have to change up. The market for PRS guns is also much smaller than people who just plink or hunt or trying to larp sniper. Those big companies are not going to make a niche rifle with little/negative ROI.

Lowlight · Dec 10, 2024

Funny, back in the day we all used rifles with serious design flaws to play a game

People, real people, don't want 10 rifles with limited application, they want to run what they have.

You guys and your excuses are crazy trying to justify bullshit, change the series to be more inline with reality

It was never meant to be such a niche sport, it was originally conceived to be practical

Rob01 · Dec 10, 2024

Paul Smith of Frontline Defense down here in NC and another range, Alliance Outdoors which has been running their own matches for years, will be running their own series this year after Paul was told that he didn’t have the “values” of the PRS which is a fucking joke. They will have three divisions open, tactical and gas gun. Only thing separate from that is a seniors class which is over 60 years old. Nice and simple. Anyone in the area should take a look in 2025. Below are the rules.

Absolute Zero Sniper Matches | Frontline Defense

www.frontlinedefenseusa.com

Lowlight · Dec 10, 2024

Ya, most people have woken up to their bullshit, hence them changing shit as they are bleeding and it's getting noticeable

The problem with the IPRF is it's too political, it's worse than the PRS, the underhanded shit that happens out of sight is crazy, them walking around in matching blazers, no thanks

DeathBeforeDismount · Dec 10, 2024

Rob01 said:
Paul Smith of Frontline Defense down here in NC and another range, Alliance Outdoors which has been running their own matches for years, will be running their own series this year after Paul was told that he didn’t have the “values” of the PRS which is a fucking joke. They will have three divisions open, tactical and gas gun. Only thing separate from that is a seniors class which is over 60 years old. Nice and simple. Anyone in the area should take a look in 2025. Below are the rules.

Absolute Zero Sniper Matches | Frontline Defense

www.frontlinedefenseusa.com

Well a big reason is Paul doesn't shoot PRS matches so he always has a bunch of gimmicky shit that people do not want. You cans tell the matches aren't really proofed. I know a bunch of guys who refuse to shoot there because of it. Shooting off floating platforms, Off rubber shoothouse blocks on MOA and sub MOA targets and some other shit that is more luck than skill. I shot the last 3 or 4 2 days he had and everyone had some shit that left you scratching your head. And some of the RO's he uses are strait up assholes and dicks. Its the only place people complain about the RO's at any of the East Coast venues. Paul has rubbed a lot of dudes the wrong way. He has a strong take it or leave it personality and it can clash with other people who are similar.

It should be a requirement that anyone MDing a 2 day match needs to shoot at least 3 of them a year to get a match. Some of these guys are so out of touch with the current pace and shooting styles. Alot of the gimmicky shit has been pushed out of PRS because shooters don't want that stuff. Par times are always fast there,rumor was he didn't want to buy timers that could go over 99 seconds

Its a shame too because its one hell of a facility with an awesome pro shop. It could be one of the gems of the east coast PRS if they had someone setting targets and running the matches who was an actual PRS competitor. I know after the 3rd time seeing the same shit it was the last time I was driving 6 hours to shoot that match unless someone else was going to MD it.

lash · Dec 10, 2024

I like the idea.

And as already said, this thread’s reactions were most predictable. Some people will never be happy even if you did everything exactly as they have asked for.

stanley_white · Dec 10, 2024

Lowlight said:
If I had the proper inclination I would create a new series but why bother, it honestly is not worth it in many ways

Would you consider writing a rule book that someone else could implement?

-Stan

Rob01 · Dec 10, 2024

DeathBeforeDismount said:
Well a big reason is Paul doesn't shoot PRS matches so he always has a bunch of gimmicky shit that people do not want. You cans tell the matches aren't really proofed. I know a bunch of guys who refuse to shoot there because of it. Shooting off floating platforms, Off rubber shoothouse blocks on MOA and sub MOA targets and some other shit that is more luck than skill. I shot the last 3 or 4 2 days he had and everyone had some shit that left you scratching your head. And some of the RO's he uses are strait up assholes and dicks. Its the only place people complain about the RO's at any of the East Coast venues. Paul has rubbed a lot of dudes the wrong way. He has a strong take it or leave it personality and it can clash with other people who are similar.

It should be a requirement that anyone MDing a 2 day match needs to shoot at least 3 of them a year to get a match. Some of these guys are so out of touch with the current pace and shooting styles. Alot of the gimmicky shit has been pushed out of PRS because shooters don't want that stuff. Par times are always fast there,rumor was he didn't want to buy timers that could go over 99 seconds

Its a shame too because its one hell of a facility with an awesome pro shop. It could be one of the gems of the east coast PRS if they had someone setting targets and running the matches who was an actual PRS competitor.

Some of those so called gimmicky stages are stages that have been shot for years in matches like the floating platform. Hell we shot out of an actual boat in a pond at Rifles Only. Wonder if it was the same guys complaining who are also the same guys pushing the PRS to be barricade benchrest?

And Paul had two 2 day matches down there a year as that’s all they gave him but also a bunch of one days and .22 matches. He does have a strong No BS attitude and maybe that is why they dropped him because they couldn’t control him. It’s funny the MDs don’t understand they are the ones who hold all the power as the PRS doesn’t run shit. They keep track of scores. If all the ranges told them to pound sand and ran what they wanted they would still fill matches and the PRS would be out of business. Lol

As to the ROs, I never had a problem with them. Maybe it’s some “pros” who think they run the match and don’t like being told how to do things. Lol

HardRockARC · Dec 10, 2024

Lowlight said:
How do you not promote the bare bones factory rifles as a thing, out of the box, add a bipod, scope and give them a schmedium, call that the beginner kit or something and then hit box stores to add in postcards with every rifle like that sold

Something like a Bergara HMR or Tikka UPR, MK4HD, harris bi-pod and shooting bag. Caliber is only limited to what the rifles come chambered in from the factory. Have to shoot factory ammo. No added weight, it weighs what it weighs. That would be a fun division.

Lowlight · Dec 10, 2024

Ya it was supposed to be called production

drglock · Dec 10, 2024

Lowlight said:
Ya it was supposed to be called production

Bingo

Niles Coyote · Dec 10, 2024

They have some sweet blaze orange Sportsman's gear.

Lowlight · Dec 10, 2024

F off Frank lol

That is funny

Lowlight · Dec 10, 2024

Where do I find the Fuck Frank Edition ?

sneakypayload · Dec 10, 2024

Lowlight said:
Everyone laughed and dismissed it, but honestly

Open, Limited, then add in divisions end of story

Open is any any, although I would add a maximum weight,
Limited is that, limited to 26" barrels, a weight, like 19LBS, and factory ammo

Done !

Literally have said this the past 2-3 years.

Open: Any .30 cal or smaller bullet max 3200 FPS max weight of 20 lbs
Limited: 26 barrels 18 lbs weight limit
Production: production rifle under 2k, scope under 2k, SAAMI or CIP cartridges only, 10 round mags, rifle manufacturer must sell atleast 500 rifles a year PER base configuration or whatever.

Same page though.

I know no one gives a shit, but I wont be giving PRS any more money, 1 day matches and outlaw matches it is for me.

Lowlight · Dec 10, 2024

With production you cannot put a price on anything, the moment you include a price limit you make it the minimum price for entry

The $2500 Rifle, $2500 Scope means, $5k minimum price of entry, everyone who spent $1200 on a rifle and $800 on a scope will say, not good enough and never show. It needs to be factory, if you want say no modifications, then when you burn out the barrel you move to Limited

Production or Run what you brung should have no barrier to entry, it should just be unmodified, or out of the box, with both ammo and accessories

021411 · Dec 10, 2024

I laughed when these custom shops turned out practically custom rifles right at the price cap and calling it a “production” rifle. Production to me is going to a sporting goods store and getting something off the shelf.

DeathBeforeDismount · Dec 10, 2024

021411 said:
I laughed when these custom shops turned out practically custom rifles right at the price cap and calling it a “production” rifle. Production to me is going to a sporting goods store and getting something off the shelf.

Why? It's great for the shooters and people who don't even compete. You can pick up a rifle for 3000 ( or 20% less if you know the code) that is 95% of a rifle that costs twice as much. They are not making hardly any money on these guns especially when you understand there is already a 11% FET baked into the cost. They are the best deals in rifles out there.

021411 · Dec 10, 2024

DeathBeforeDismount said:
Why? It's great for the shooters and people who don't even compete. You can pick up a rifle for 3000 ( or 20% less if you know the code) that is 95% of a rifle that costs twice as much. They are not making hardly any money on these guns especially when you understand there is already a 11% FET baked into the cost. They are the best deals in rifles out there.

I’m not shitting on the rifle or what you’re getting. Just the spirit of the division at least to my eyes.

Lowlight · Dec 10, 2024

Honestly the Custom Production guns are worth grabbing

I had a Hancock here I gave to a young shooter, cheap guns are easy to gift and the GAP production gun is is easily a $5k rifle any other time

The problem was the politics of them, who's is legal and who's isn't, they used that to tax and reward people

JoeZ · Dec 10, 2024

At a run and gun match the rifles aren't very heavy at all. And one of my stages had the shooters run up and begin the stage as they approached it, rifles slung, bags stowed, bipods retracted, etc. Seems to me that is a more practical rifle use.

Modoc · Dec 11, 2024

As a person on the outer edge of the PRS/NRL envelope, this has been a hilarious thread to follow. For multiple reasons I’m not in the running (distance, other shooting sports, etc). I have what I have in calibers that fill the needs, so why should I have to buy/build a rifle for a 2-3 match a year happening?

I WANT to learn to shoot better/PRACTICE at greater ranges than my local range can provide with the gear that I use, but this category still puts me in with the open shooters because of my cartridge. Too many custom rifles built before the whiz-bang cartridges came out.

If they want “Sportsmen” I feel that it needs to be unlimited cartridge, but either a blind or Obendorf style magazine that the majority of the general public have.

Modoc · Dec 11, 2024

Modoc said:
As a person on the outer edge of the PRS/NRL envelope, this has been a hilarious thread to follow. For multiple reasons I’m not in the running (distance, other shooting sports, etc). I have what I have in calibers that fill the needs, so why should I have to buy/build a rifle for a 2-3 match a year happening?

I WANT to learn to shoot better/PRACTICE at greater ranges than my local range can provide with the gear that I use, but this category still puts me in with the open shooters because of my cartridge. Too many custom rifles built before the whiz-bang cartridges came out.

If they want “Sportsmen” I feel that it needs to be unlimited cartridge, but either a blind or Obendorf style magazine that the majority of the general public have.

Can YOU shoot a stage efficiently having to load 3+ rounds into your rifle from the loading/ejection port under pressure of a timer?

Lowlight · Dec 11, 2024

I bet I can find guys with the rounds stuck in the plastic matting on the tower at rifles only feeding top loaders on a mover stage.

Modoc · Dec 11, 2024

Lowlight said:
I bet I can find guys with the rounds stuck in the plastic matting on the tower at rifles only feeding top loaders on a mover stage.

Truth! A matter of ammo management. Something most “sportsmen” do not think about. I.E. I practice reloading from the watch pocket of my jeans, similar to my Cowboy Action Shooting reloads but still different.

What is the “Sportsman” category really geared towards? Personally, I don’t think that it was well thought out.

The other issue is that PRS can end up like USPSA/IPSC/SASS with a plethora of categories which leads to a match management headache and expense (prior match director).

lte82 · Dec 11, 2024

Rifles adapted to the (lack of) skill requirements, which currently reward a 30 lb rifle and those who can create the best modified prone setup on a barricade. Create a course of fire that rewards or requires the 18-20 lb rifle and that’s what people will shoot. That likely means specifying or greatly limiting how certain stages have to be approached.

Artificially limiting the rifle weight or configuration for the current PRS course of fire does nothing more than handicap the shooter. Make the light rifle make sense to the competitors, otherwise it will never be widely adopted.

Edit: I still think the idea of this super light sportsman class is interesting, and if it attracts people to the sport then that's great. It's going to be really hard to compete with gjven the current courses of fire though. I feel like a good shooter behind a production or tactical class rifle can still win or at least go top 10 in most matches, but a 13 lb rifle will likely only be able to compete well within it's own class.

sierracharlie338 · Dec 11, 2024

I’m late to the party and don’t really have a dog in this fight but limiting the caliber to 6.5 creedmoor I guess allows me to shoot my 260, I mean it’s a 6.5 CALIBER but identifies as a man

On a serious note, it’s a great idea but terrible execution.

021411 · Dec 11, 2024

My nearest club is having their monthly match this Saturday and have added Sportsman division and the suppressor category to practiscore. I’m curious on how many will sign up to shoot Sportsman’s and from what I read, a scale will be present at check-in.

tsovern · Dec 11, 2024

I don't think it's a horrible idea, but can't see it making meaningful impact on match participation.
I think it would have made more sense mimicking the nrl heavy rules. ( Sub 16#, power factor instead of specific cartridge. )
Can you even build a 13# detachable mag rifle that balances on a bag?

Dead Eye Dick · Dec 11, 2024

tsovern said:
I don't think it's a horrible idea, but can't see it making meaningful impact on match participation.
I think it would have made more sense mimicking the nrl heavy rules. ( Sub 16#, power factor instead of specific cartridge. )
Can you even build a 13# detachable mag rifle that balances on a bag?

13 pound rifle that balances. I believe you could but the barrel would have to be so slender and so long, after a ten shot string in the middle of the summer, you could start a forest fire if you laid the barrel down. We could light cigarettes off our barrels in Vietnam after a sustained firing sequence. Can’t imagine how hard it would be on a pencil thin barrel, firing 10 to 12 shot strings for an entire afternoon.

Emerson0311 · Dec 11, 2024

tsovern said:
I don't think it's a horrible idea, but can't see it making meaningful impact on match participation.
I think it would have made more sense mimicking the nrl heavy rules. ( Sub 16#, power factor instead of specific cartridge. )
Can you even build a 13# detachable mag rifle that balances on a bag?

I don’t care about balancing on a bag if I can shoot in a class that my regular hunting rifle fits into nicely. I have no daily need of a 15+# carry rifle.

Waco Kid · Dec 11, 2024

Rob01 said:
Paul Smith of Frontline Defense down here in NC and another range, Alliance Outdoors which has been running their own matches for years, will be running their own series this year after Paul was told that he didn’t have the “values” of the PRS which is a fucking joke. They will have three divisions open, tactical and gas gun. Only thing separate from that is a seniors class which is over 60 years old. Nice and simple. Anyone in the area should take a look in 2025. Below are the rules.

Absolute Zero Sniper Matches | Frontline Defense

www.frontlinedefenseusa.com

Noticed the bag rule, only 1 per stage and not bigger than an og gamechanger. I like that. Maybe do away with the big pillows and rear tripod stuff, 16-18lbs max weight, in a common cartridge. Call it Practical class or division or whatever.

If you could keep sandbagging out somehow, I think class by match experience would help new ppl be less intimidated. Also, spread word that being new will actually get you a lot of guidance from great people. I squadded with the guy that ended up winning the match my first time out. He went out of his way to help me even though I never asked him to! Couple other squad mates did too.

That said, I’m just doing matches for fun and to improve, the class I sign up for is irrelevant, I’m bottom of the pack anyway. So I’m sure one of our resident know it alls will be along shortly to tell me since I don’t shoot 15 matches a year my opinion doesn’t count

Lawnboi · Dec 11, 2024

Emerson0311 said:
I don’t care about balancing on a bag if I can shoot in a class that my regular hunting rifle fits into nicely. I have no daily need of a 15+# carry rifle.

That’s the problem. I’d even shoot a match or 2 but limiting it to 6.5 creed means I have to buy more, which I won’t do.

The cartridge restriction really is what limits the class. Without that I see people shooting it more.

Emerson0311 · Dec 11, 2024

Lawnboi said:
That’s the problem. I’d even shoot a match or 2 but limiting it to 6.5 creed means I have to buy more, which I won’t do.

The cartridge restriction really is what limits the class. Without that I see people shooting it more.

That could well be. Minimum power factor that covered 6.5 CM factory ammo would work just fine for me. I’m getting old so have picked 6.5CM as my regular middle of the road poison.

ma smith · Dec 11, 2024

You train for F1 drives on a go-kart, not a mclaren.
You train fighter pilots on a trainer jet, not an f-35.
You train sailors on a Laser, not a 49er.
You train new shooters on 22LR, not a 338Lapua.

The PRS trainer should be something that

1. is cheap to buy
2. is cheap to shoot (ammo, maintenance)
3. is good for your fundamentals (low recoil, balanced)
4. is going hold value (not be obsolete in 3 months due to rules change)

The best rifle for something like this is what should be the sportsman's class.

The problem we need to solve is how to build this rifle...

Lowlight · Dec 11, 2024

This Apollo Lite, with a HTN 26, Bartlien CF barrel, MDT Brake, no bipod is 10.4 LBS using a 4-16x NF

So add in the bag and accessories

tsovern · Dec 11, 2024

Emerson0311 said:
I don’t care about balancing on a bag if I can shoot in a class that my regular hunting rifle fits into nicely. I have no daily need of a 15+# carry rifle.

16# max, not minimum. You could shoot it.

Emerson0311 · Dec 11, 2024

tsovern said:
16# max, not minimum. You could shoot it.

I don’t want to carry that weight hunting, and I want my match shooting to cross over for me. Matches are a “meh” at this point, due to time and $$$ cost for limited return do to long travel required.

Rob01 · Dec 11, 2024

Waco Kid said:
Noticed the bag rule, only 1 per stage and not bigger than an og gamechanger. I like that. Maybe do away with the big pillows and rear tripod stuff, 16-18lbs max weight, in a common cartridge. Call it Practical class or division or whatever.

If you could keep sandbagging out somehow, I think class by match experience would help new ppl be less intimidated. Also, spread word that being new will actually get you a lot of guidance from great people. I squadded with the guy that ended up winning the match my first time out. He went out of his way to help me even though I never asked him to! Couple other squad mates did too.

That said, I’m just doing matches for fun and to improve, the class I sign up for is irrelevant, I’m bottom of the pack anyway. So I’m sure one of our resident know it alls will be along shortly to tell me since I don’t shoot 15 matches a year my opinion doesn’t count

Yup I like the one bag rule also. Will make less to drag around and make it more about shooting. Also same for the tripod starting in a closed position. I am sure some will not be happy about both but it’s the rules and the name of the game is hit the most targets while staying within the simple rules set.

Pretty sure @Frontlinedefenseusa set the divisions already at the three listed which will work great for the first year. Nice and simple with three divisions.

1911Shootist · Dec 11, 2024

Emerson0311 said:
I don’t want to carry that weight hunting, and I want my match shooting to cross over for me. Matches are a “meh” at this point, due to time and $$$ cost for limited return do to long travel required.

So if you're only shooting matches occasionally and they aren't important to you, why do you need a division that fits your needs? You can run in open with a hunting rifle, or you could run against slightly heavier guns with only a minor disadvantage.

Emerson0311 · Dec 11, 2024

1911Shootist said:
So if you're only shooting matches occasionally and they aren't important to you, why do you need a division that fits your needs? You can run in open with a hunting rifle, or you could run against slightly heavier guns with only a minor disadvantage.

Same reason I don’t compete in the black belt division in a martial arts comp. No one is setting up this division for Emerson. I comment because I have an opinion and I shoot. If enough shooters are happy the org will grow. If not it will stagnate and change or get replaced.

Edit: If all this stuff was a 1/2 hr from my house, I would probably shoot them every weekend either way. The fact is, I drive 8-12hrs each way, hotels, food, match fees, time off work etc makes it a big investment, often over $1500+lost income. Getting savaged by a national class shooter with a much more capable system is not worth the effort, especially after a couple years. The decisions are made by those who care enough to comment. The funny part is, usually the matches I spend $$$ to attend are under subscribed by the shooters that live in the same fucking town the match is in. I’m not the problem. I’m the dumbass slow learner that is slowly getting a little less dense.

sneakypayload · Dec 12, 2024

Rob01 said:
Same here. I am going to go shoot matches and have fun and keep the money I would have sent the PRS for another match fee. Lol

There is zero benefit to joining PRS, at all.

sneakypayload · Dec 12, 2024

Rob01 said:
Yup I like the one bag rule also. Will make less to drag around and make it more about shooting. Also same for the tripod starting in a closed position. I am sure some will not be happy about both but it’s the rules and the name of the game is hit the most targets while staying within the simple rules set.

Pretty sure @Frontlinedefenseusa set the divisions already at the three listed which will work great for the first year. Nice and simple with three divisions.

If you’re gonna use tripod rear it 100% should start closed.

Tx_Aggie · Dec 12, 2024

sneakypayload said:
There is zero benefit to joining PRS, at all.

The discounts for members can be pretty good (especially the one through EuroOptic) and that alone can often make a regional membership make sense.

If a shooter has an interest in attending a finale match a membership might also make sense.

But yeah, if you don't care about the member discounts and only intend to shoot a few regional or rimfire matches throughout the year, there's no need to join. And no requirement that you be a member to shoot.

Rob01 · Dec 12, 2024

The number of matches you plan to shoot has nothing to do with membership. You can shoot every one and two day centerfire and rimfire match out there except the finale and not be a member.

The discount does help but if you felt you needed it you could join and use it.

superde · Dec 12, 2024

Lowlight said:
I bet I can find guys with the rounds stuck in the plastic matting on the tower at rifles only feeding top loaders on a mover stage.

I remember those days back in 2005. I think @Rob01 was the last one to top 5 place with a top loader.

Cjwise5 · Dec 15, 2024

lash said:
I like the idea.

And as already said, this thread’s reactions were most predictable. Some people will never be happy even if you did everything exactly as they have asked for.

That’s the problem though…they (PRS) never ask what the shooters actually want. All decisions are left up to the “inner circle”, and unfortunately usually have something to do with making money for their sponsors over and above providing good solutions that benefit the group of shooters that actually grow the sport…and that’s not the top pros.

DeathBeforeDismount · Wednesday at 9:13 PM

That's why I think there should be a board. PRS ownership 1/3, match directors 1/3 and shooters 1/3. Let the membership and MDs vote on who reps them. Then the board votes on rule changes. The optics alone from something like this will put the PRS leadership in a better light and add legitimacy to the rule making and governance process.

I still think the sport evolves into what the shooters want. If people aren't happy they won't shoot. If they have good ideas, they share them, make videos or submit to the committee at the end of the season. Can't make everyone happy.

Most the of the changes we have seen over time is due to what shooters want ( or what ownership thinks they want). Sportsman is a great example. Add another division that has less barriers to entry while letting the gamers and sponsors also play in the pool. Secondary effect is we get more product development gear towards weight savings that benefits everyone. I still think sportsman should be 16 lbs...but oh well. Maybe that will change too depending on how much success it achieves.

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