Are precision .22 rimfires ammo picky or
- Thread starter David Lott
- Start date
I don't really understand the question.... What process?
I'm assuming you are doing this purely for conversation sake because I'm sure Derek can easily answer your query.
But yes rimfire's seem to be choosey on what kind of ammo they like to eat.
I'm assuming you are doing this purely for conversation sake because I'm sure Derek can easily answer your query.
But yes rimfire's seem to be choosey on what kind of ammo they like to eat.
"It depends." My first-gen Vudoo (Bartlein barrel cut & installed at Vudoo) does quite well with a variety of Lapua, SK, Eley, and RWS SKUs. The labels it doesn't like - it definitely doesn't like and lots seem to have relatively little influence.
My Rim-X with Shilen barrel is far pickier. It was chambered by a highly-respected personal-friend smith who was reluctant to do the work - now we understand why. Eventually I'll either ask @jelrod1 to do a setback/rechamber or just ditch the thing and let somebody else fiddle with it (if I sell it, full disclosure is part of the deal).
My Rim-X with Shilen barrel is far pickier. It was chambered by a highly-respected personal-friend smith who was reluctant to do the work - now we understand why. Eventually I'll either ask @jelrod1 to do a setback/rechamber or just ditch the thing and let somebody else fiddle with it (if I sell it, full disclosure is part of the deal).
I edited to clarify, the process of chambering/crown. The same parts are available to anyone yet some rifles perform better than others across a wider variety of ammo and lots.
My personal experience says that it might, but I don't have a wide enough sample size to support that other than anecdotal as there were a few variables at play.
My first Vudoo was a factory barreled action, threaded 20" MTU, 1 in 16" twist. I shot a variety of Center-X and SK offerings through it fairly decently, but there were many Center-X and SK LR lots that it did not like. Best performance was one lot of SK LR, but I would currently classify that performance as "ok" at best. I was not yet really shooting Eley, and I wasn't in love with the idea of sending my only rifle off for lot testing. I played with different muzzle devices and tuners on it, and just never really found a substitute for lot testing. I couldn't get the tuner to really make the gun shoot any better than what I was already getting, but I sure could make it worse.
Vudoo #2 was a 360, and I had a 22" 1 in 12" twist 1.20 straight Lothar spun on by Modacam. I decided to go with a non-threaded muzzle/no tuner, and just commit to lot testing. I only shot Eley Tenex and Match through it, doing lot testing on my own via lot selection through Killough. It was more picky than my previous Vudoo, but was very good with the lots it liked.
I recently picked up a Vudoo 360 with a 25" 1.25 straight non-threaded 1 in 13" twist Mullerworks from DI Precision (wink). It shoots most of the lots of Eley and Lapua that I have on-hand pretty well. Definitely less picky than the 1 in 12" twist Lothar, which was really nice because I can use lots that did not do well in the previous rifles with it. There are still some lots that are not acceptable, but I went from having 1 "good" lot and 1 "ok" lot with 7 or 8 "not good" lots to having 2 "good" lots and 5 or 6 "ok" lots.
I also have a Bergara factory steel 18" threaded rifle that shoots one lot of Wolf Match almost as well as "ok" lots of Tenex and Center-X from my Vudoos, but shows very decent performance with one of my lots of Eley Match. It's currently getting rebarreled, as the 18" barrel is a pain in the ass to get balanced, and I like what I have been seeing with the 25" 13 twist Mullerworks barrels.
My factory T1X (first attempt at "precision" .22LR) was only really tested with SK offerings, but did decent with the Biathlon and Pistol lots I initially bought. I rebarreled it with a drop-in International mostly in an effort to get better balance in the chassis I had for it for my kid to shoot. It was also picky on ammo, and I never really found anything that I would consider "good". I retired it to the back of the safe and switched over to the Bergara (pre-rebarrel) for him due to never really getting what I wanted out of it, to include reliability after the barrel swap.
I don't know much about .22LR "match" chambers other than the fact that there are around 150 of them. I don't know exactly who does what, but I know that at least in the barrels I have I can see different performance with the same lot of ammo, and some are more picky than others. I am unsure how much of that is caused by the chamber or crown.
There are several indie reamers out there. My recent barrels are cut using a Lapua optimized chamber reamer. Not sure if the differences but they seem less picky.
I have been through many rifles over the years. If they were lot picky I sold them. I have 6 custom built vudoos and 4 custom built rimx rifles now. Not one of them are picky with ammo. I believe it is no tight spots in barrel and headspace that make a barrel not picky. I have a variety of different match chambers. All 1.5 degree leads. But they all still shoot eley well too.
Even if they did, every barrel is different regardless of the chamber/crown.
For me, sample sizes for accuracy and velocity for a given rifle/barrel are decided with a minimum of 25 rounds, preferably double that.
- Accuracy: consistent 3/8" at 50, one-MOA at 100 in optimal conditions, with a fair number of 5-shot groups 2/3 or even half that size. I am fortunate to have an indoor range with a 100-yard bay nearby. More and more, though, I check performance at 200 and 300 yards. So far, I'm finding the higher-velocity offerings from Lapua (Long Range) and RWS (R100) to be better "wayward out there." Unfortunately, both my rifles distinctly dislike the two lots of SK Long Range Match I've tried.
- Velocity: ES of 30-35, SD of ~8 over dozens (or in the case of my lot-tested Center-X, thousands) of rounds. A fair n umber of 5- or 10-shot strings will show ES/SD values in the 15/6 range.
We have more .22s being shot than ever before in the history of .22, how can we not know more and have answers?
Barrels are different from one to another but we have seen a trend over 300 barrels or so.
I want to see 3-5 reamers in 3-5 copies of each barrel. I want each barrel made in blanks from 3-5 makers. I wan to see 3-5 ammo types per brand/factory, and I want to see min 3-5 lots per type (but probably more like 10-20), across a production run is at least 5 if not 10 year in width. To be close to real world expectation, you'd also need to cut barrels in sharp, mid-life, and end-of life configurations of each specific reamer.
And that's not even being very demanding ...
And that's not even being very demanding ...
With everything the same you will still see a difference in one to the next due to the tooling used in the rifling one barrel could have a sharper edge on possibly just one of the lands versus another even though they are the same - at the end it distorts the bullet differently from the next barrel thus changing the BC slightly and impacts. Harmonics should be close but yet could be different the rifling/ lands after being cut by the same will still effect the end result.
When it gets close in reference to the comparisons then distance will weed things apart.
JH
When it gets close in reference to the comparisons then distance will weed things apart.
JH
Are precision rimfire rifles ammo picky?
Yeah. They require the uniformly best made cartridges available.
No rifle can fix problems caused by ammunition
that has variations in assembly, components, primer/powder amounts,
chemistry or has been subjected to rough handling, extreme temperatures.
Asymmetric bullets and variations in center of balance
will affect how the bullet reacts with the rifling and atmosphere
after it exits the barrel. If a box of cartridges produced good results,
it would do so from any properly built rifle.
If it produces strays and vertical spread,
that'll happen also with other competition grade rifles.
No two cartridges that roll off the assembly line are identical.
No two boxes, bricks, cases of cartridges are exactly the same.
Variations in trajectories are caused by lack of uniformity, cartridge to cartridge.
Get a run of well made cartridges, similar in quality,
you obtain similar behavior and trajectories.
If you are sold cartridges that have issues with components/assembly,
it doesn't matter how good the rifle, the ammunition will cause problems.
Well made cartridges produce predictable trajectories
when used in any competition grade rifles.
Cartridge quality, as it is made, is not a constant.
Some boxes, bricks, cases will be better/more uniform than others.
Get a bad box, the rifle gets blamed for having a brand preference.
Get a good box, then the rifle "liked" that brand.
Failure to recognize the existence of variations in cartridge quality
and thinking that every cartridge is identical,
is responsible for the concept of rifles having a "preference".
Uniformly well made cartridges will produce better results from all rifles
than cartridges with issues behave in those same rifles.
My rifle likes Lapua and hates Eley but loves RWS
can change with the next purchase of ammunition.
Now it likes Eley, loves Lapua and the RWS reeks.
Cartridge quality is not the same, moment to moment during manufacture.
Batch testing at the factory does not catch all the problems.
Welcome to the assembly line lottery.
Yeah. They require the uniformly best made cartridges available.
No rifle can fix problems caused by ammunition
that has variations in assembly, components, primer/powder amounts,
chemistry or has been subjected to rough handling, extreme temperatures.
Asymmetric bullets and variations in center of balance
will affect how the bullet reacts with the rifling and atmosphere
after it exits the barrel. If a box of cartridges produced good results,
it would do so from any properly built rifle.
If it produces strays and vertical spread,
that'll happen also with other competition grade rifles.
No two cartridges that roll off the assembly line are identical.
No two boxes, bricks, cases of cartridges are exactly the same.
Variations in trajectories are caused by lack of uniformity, cartridge to cartridge.
Get a run of well made cartridges, similar in quality,
you obtain similar behavior and trajectories.
If you are sold cartridges that have issues with components/assembly,
it doesn't matter how good the rifle, the ammunition will cause problems.
Well made cartridges produce predictable trajectories
when used in any competition grade rifles.
Cartridge quality, as it is made, is not a constant.
Some boxes, bricks, cases will be better/more uniform than others.
Get a bad box, the rifle gets blamed for having a brand preference.
Get a good box, then the rifle "liked" that brand.
Failure to recognize the existence of variations in cartridge quality
and thinking that every cartridge is identical,
is responsible for the concept of rifles having a "preference".
Uniformly well made cartridges will produce better results from all rifles
than cartridges with issues behave in those same rifles.
My rifle likes Lapua and hates Eley but loves RWS
can change with the next purchase of ammunition.
Now it likes Eley, loves Lapua and the RWS reeks.
Cartridge quality is not the same, moment to moment during manufacture.
Batch testing at the factory does not catch all the problems.
Welcome to the assembly line lottery.
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Spot on, which is why I chose my wording the way I did. I had a lot of midas+ that would shoot basically the same one hole 5 shot groups in every barreled action we built and tested. Other lots will group similarly across multiple barrels we do. If it is a .2 it will do .2 across many, if it is a .5 lot same scenario. We have seen this trend over 300 barrels with various actions(vudoo, rim x, bergara. Cz, volquartsen summit). That tells me how it is done(process) matters. The feed back from good shooters verifies our findings.Are precision rimfire rifles ammo picky?
Yeah. They require the uniformly best made cartridges available.
No rifle can fix problems caused by ammunition
that has variations in assembly, components, primer/powder amounts,
chemistry or has been subjected to rough handling, extreme temperatures.
Asymmetric bullets and variations in center of balance
will affect how the bullet reacts with the rifling and atmosphere
after it exits the barrel. If a box of cartridges produced good results,
it would do so from any properly built rifle.
If it produces strays and vertical spread,
that'll happen also with other competition grade rifles.
No two cartridges that roll off the assembly line are identical.
No two boxes, bricks, cases of cartridges are exactly the same.
Variations in trajectories are caused by lack of uniformity, cartridge to cartridge.
Get a run of well made cartridges, similar in quality,
you obtain similar behavior and trajectories.
If you are sold cartridges that have issues with components/assembly,
it doesn't matter how good the rifle, the ammunition will cause problems.
Well made cartridges produce predictable trajectories
when used in any competition grade rifles.
Cartridge quality as it made, is not a constant.
Some boxes, bricks, cases will be better/more uniform than others.
Get a bad box, the rifle gets blamed for having a brand preference.
Get a good box, then the rifle "liked" that brand.
Failure to recognize the existence of variations in cartridge quality
and thinking that every cartridge is identical,
is responsible for the concept of rifles being "picky".
Uniformly well made cartridges will produce better results from all rifles
than cartridges with issues behave in those same rifles.
My rifle likes Lapua and hates Eley but loves RWS
can change with the next purchase of ammunition.
Now it likes Eley, loves Lapua and the RWS reeks.
Cartridge quality is not the same, moment to moment during manufacture.
Batch testing at the factory does not catch all the problems.
Welcome to the assembly line lottery.
The chambering and crowning are only two parts. The round goes into the chamber and exits the muzzle.
The part in between -- the bore -- also has a role because not all bores are equal. The bore is at least as, perhaps more, important, as chambering and crowning in ammo performance. Performance is not dictated by one or two parts of the trifecta.
The trouble is the data is inconsistently collected and even more inconsistently analyzed. The vast majority of the shooters referred to are very casual shooters. The vast majority of results are little more than anecdotal reports, often tinged with misinformation and misunderstanding.
More serious shooters frequently don't record or analyze results in sufficiently similar or uniform ways. Reliable answers depend on comparing data that is as much apples to apples as possible.
To illustrate with an example, there's little or no accumulated reliable evidence for the performance of fast twist barrels versus standard twist. There are anecdotal reports one way or another but little that's the result of careful testing under similar conditions.
Barrels are indeed different. But each ostensibly does the very same thing, which is to send rounds downrange with as much accuracy and precision as possible.
Trends seen over hundreds of presumably good barrels may suggest that similarities are the result of the ammo. In other words, when ammo is good it does well in many barrels. When ammo is less-than-good, it does less well in many barrels.
Agree - I've seen this with my lot-tested (Lapua west facility in AZ) Center-X. Shoots well in every rifle in which it's been used. Unfortunately:
- I'm down to the last two bricks of the two cases I ordered. Ryan at the test center reported to me last week that wait time for a test slot is approximately seven months.
- They only test Center-X / Midas+ / X-Act.
My (unclear) point: Agree with David Lott that a good ammo lot shoots well in all rifles - problem is, good ammo costs $$$ and, short of getting Lapua, Killough (Eley), or Whidden to test whatever they have available, buyers could end up with "a lot of a bad lot."
I stopped agreeing with the idea of rifle preference by brand, years ago.
I had purchased a case of SK made Wolf Match Extra.
It produced results better than any supposed match ammunition purchased since.
Sub inch clusters, on center of bullseye, at 100 yards.
Consistent with multiple rifles off the bench on calm mornings.
MV spread per 50 shots less than 40 fps.
Next case purchased, nowhere near as good.
Same brand, same factory, different date of manufacture.
Odd lateral strays and vertical fliers, MV spread exceeding 60 fps.
Label does not guarantee results.
Finding those uniformly well made cartridges
is why I apply the idea of the assembly line lottery.
Ya' pays y'er money, ya' takes y'er chances.
I had purchased a case of SK made Wolf Match Extra.
It produced results better than any supposed match ammunition purchased since.
Sub inch clusters, on center of bullseye, at 100 yards.
Consistent with multiple rifles off the bench on calm mornings.
MV spread per 50 shots less than 40 fps.
Next case purchased, nowhere near as good.
Same brand, same factory, different date of manufacture.
Odd lateral strays and vertical fliers, MV spread exceeding 60 fps.
Label does not guarantee results.
Finding those uniformly well made cartridges
is why I apply the idea of the assembly line lottery.
Ya' pays y'er money, ya' takes y'er chances.
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Yes, inconsistent ammo is the devil in the details across all the testing in what may be very consistent high quality barrels. My experience with 12T was high risk, high return. My assumption is that well balanced projectiles benefited from the faster twist, but the few unbalanced ones in “match” ammo resulted in “flyers”. We see a similar situation with centerfire where 30-40 shot average group size or average distance from center trend towards unremarkable groups that most do not post online.
I will say I am always impressed on how my factory Sako Quad barrel shoots. Yes the expensive stuff shoots really nice out of it. But I am not afraid to run cheap CCI standard out of it either. I have yet to find an ammo that doesn’t shoot decent out of it.
Because none of us have any way of knowing who is doing what behind the scenes. We don't know if one individual is cutting corners getting poor results. We don't know if one person is getting great results because they are simply getting lucky or flat out overhype-ing their results.
And the ones who stand at the tippy-top of the leader boards aren't sharing their secrets or telling others the shear ludicrous amounts of money they have been spending on spare barrels/guns/optics/gear, or extra crates of ammo, and training/practice sessions. When you find out you've been outspent by a factor of 10 or even 20.....you start to realize how badly some want to win versus those who think it would be kinda cool to win.
The point of anything is to excel at it, sports, competitions, the Olympics etc are designed to produce winners, I don't find myself wanting to get out of bed to produce average results. I want to win by producing the very best possible. The guys winning at matches, finales, world championships do so because they strive to be better and work towards that goal. On FB (not on there anymore) I use to post pics of groups to show results not talk about them. I may need to start doing that on here,
Just to add David, your dedication to precision has resulted in some very impressive groups at some crazy distances that most say can’t be done.
Thank you
JH
The rifle was built in 2024 from DI Precision
Using Midas Plus ammo
A 3 shot group at 500 while trueing up Balistics APP
Another 5 shot group at 500 same time these two groups had a 4 MPH wind from 10:00
33.8 Mil elevation was needed and 3.4 mils of windage
Then an overlap of two 3 shot groups at 700 yards - yes a bullet is missing it went off the target plate just right of group. I was was holding for windage 12’ that was running 2 to 10pm from 10:30
58.5 mils of elevation and 6.6 mils of windage
Yes the $ bill was vertical in the target versus horizontal at 500
The dollar $ Bill represents the group size for reference
Crazy but fun, I like the science behind all of this and we take what we use on the big 416 ELR center fires and down size it for maga fun with the 22LR
Now lets just hope I can get some pictures to show
Thanks David to your dedication to precision
JH
Using Midas Plus ammo
A 3 shot group at 500 while trueing up Balistics APP
Another 5 shot group at 500 same time these two groups had a 4 MPH wind from 10:00
33.8 Mil elevation was needed and 3.4 mils of windage
Then an overlap of two 3 shot groups at 700 yards - yes a bullet is missing it went off the target plate just right of group. I was was holding for windage 12’ that was running 2 to 10pm from 10:30
58.5 mils of elevation and 6.6 mils of windage
Yes the $ bill was vertical in the target versus horizontal at 500
The dollar $ Bill represents the group size for reference
Crazy but fun, I like the science behind all of this and we take what we use on the big 416 ELR center fires and down size it for maga fun with the 22LR
Now lets just hope I can get some pictures to show
Thanks David to your dedication to precision
JH
I would say absolutely it does. If a particular barrel/chamber/process shoots say one lot of a particular ammo very well I'd expect that other barrels that were basically identical in material/cambering/rifling/tolerances would also shoot them very well.
Even in big box manufacturers we see this, typically CZ's shoot SK/Lapua better than Eley. Not that I haven't seen CZ's shoot Eley well, or a particular lot great, but overall they seem to prefer SK/Lapua. Why? I have no idea, barrel diameter, chambering, rifling type.
Typically some barrels also have much less variation between ammo they like and ammo they don't, the same is true across lots of the same ammo. I have an old volquartsen from their very early days that shoots everything pretty well, it likes top match ammo, and some lots better than others, but it shoots nice groups even with something like CCI Std, or cheaper match ammo. My CZ 457 shoots better groups with ammo/lots it likes, but if you averaged groups out over 10 types of match ammo the average group size would probably be better with the volquartsen. 10/22 Kidd is the same, it can shoot really nice groups with ammo it likes, but it can also shoot really bad groups with match ammo it doesn't.
It brings up interesting questions, clearly there are ways to make 22 barrels perform well with a wide range of ammo and lots, and it makes logical sense that a better quality and consistency barrel would show less variation between ammo. The more interesting question is, is there a tipping point where tailoring a barrel too much to a particular ammo, causes it to be too picky with other match ammo or lots.
It also depends a lot on the user, for a the top competitor spending weeks trying to find the best ammo/lot and then buying 5000-10000 rounds of it is worth the trade off. However for a lot of even enthusiast shooters, they may not be willing to go through all that testing, and then pony up the $2500-$5000 to stockpile that much ammo. For them having a barrel that shoots a wider range of quality match ammo really well with less variation probably would make them happier, even if it won't shoot the best possible group with it's favorite ammo/lot because they will never go that far down the rabbit hole to find it anyway.
To me that's the most frustrating part of rimfire, you can spend endless days at the range testing ammo/lots and these days even when you find the best option. Rimfire match ammo disappears so fast it's unlikely you can source enough of that lot to matter. These days the easy button seems to be to build the best thing you can, send it to a test facility and and buy as much as you can afford/allowed to of whatever tests best.
Even in big box manufacturers we see this, typically CZ's shoot SK/Lapua better than Eley. Not that I haven't seen CZ's shoot Eley well, or a particular lot great, but overall they seem to prefer SK/Lapua. Why? I have no idea, barrel diameter, chambering, rifling type.
Typically some barrels also have much less variation between ammo they like and ammo they don't, the same is true across lots of the same ammo. I have an old volquartsen from their very early days that shoots everything pretty well, it likes top match ammo, and some lots better than others, but it shoots nice groups even with something like CCI Std, or cheaper match ammo. My CZ 457 shoots better groups with ammo/lots it likes, but if you averaged groups out over 10 types of match ammo the average group size would probably be better with the volquartsen. 10/22 Kidd is the same, it can shoot really nice groups with ammo it likes, but it can also shoot really bad groups with match ammo it doesn't.
It brings up interesting questions, clearly there are ways to make 22 barrels perform well with a wide range of ammo and lots, and it makes logical sense that a better quality and consistency barrel would show less variation between ammo. The more interesting question is, is there a tipping point where tailoring a barrel too much to a particular ammo, causes it to be too picky with other match ammo or lots.
It also depends a lot on the user, for a the top competitor spending weeks trying to find the best ammo/lot and then buying 5000-10000 rounds of it is worth the trade off. However for a lot of even enthusiast shooters, they may not be willing to go through all that testing, and then pony up the $2500-$5000 to stockpile that much ammo. For them having a barrel that shoots a wider range of quality match ammo really well with less variation probably would make them happier, even if it won't shoot the best possible group with it's favorite ammo/lot because they will never go that far down the rabbit hole to find it anyway.
To me that's the most frustrating part of rimfire, you can spend endless days at the range testing ammo/lots and these days even when you find the best option. Rimfire match ammo disappears so fast it's unlikely you can source enough of that lot to matter. These days the easy button seems to be to build the best thing you can, send it to a test facility and and buy as much as you can afford/allowed to of whatever tests best.
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