Badger Ordinance Dead Level not level?

j-moose32 · Thursday at 8:30 PM

Anyone here use the dead level before and have it show as level, but when you check it with a level on the rail, it shows as off?

I checked with 3 difference small levels on the rail, and they all showed as off. When I adjusted it so the levels on the rail said it was level , the level on the unit itself reads as off.

Anyone have issues before?

Pic below as well

j-moose32 · Thursday at 8:39 PM

021411 · Thursday at 8:45 PM

Mine is a little off so I just level the rail and not trust the built in bubble.

j-moose32 · Thursday at 8:59 PM

021411 said:
Mine is a little off so I just level the rail and not trust the built in bubble.

Cool thanks. I was going crazy today using it. You’d think the dead level would be dead nuts accurate

021411 · Thursday at 9:09 PM

j-moose32 said:
Cool thanks. I was going crazy today using it. You’d think the dead level would be dead nuts accurate

These days I just use it for more of a mounting fixture. I hang a plumb bob and align the reticle with that.

DeathBeforeDismount · Thursday at 9:09 PM

What did badger say when you called them?

Those little levels are pretty shit. If you are going to check use something you can trust like a starret machinists level.

j-moose32 · Thursday at 9:34 PM

021411 said:
These days I just use it for more of a mounting fixture. I hang a plumb bob and align the reticle with that.

I do the same, just wanted the rail to be level. I usually do it on the rifle but got this out of storage recently and figured it would make the process easier. I was wrong , ha

j-moose32 · Thursday at 9:35 PM

DeathBeforeDismount said:
What did badger say when you called them?

Those little levels are pretty shit. If you are going to check use something you can trust like a starret machinists level.

I haven’t even gotten that far. Wanted to sanity check myself before calling them. I will tomorrow and update with what they have to say

B y r o n · Friday at 10:45 AM

Something else you can try to double check your bubble levels; if you don't already have a level app for you cell phone download one. Most have a process to calibrate itself, do that first. Then find a flat surface line a counter top and put your phone on it. Put your bubble levels next to the phone. You might be surprised at what you see.

You can also put the phone on the Dead Level to compare it's bubble level.

Baron23 · Friday at 11:17 AM

IMO, unless your spirit/bubble level comes with a certificate of traceability to NIST (and the associated high cost), then just pick one as your standard because they all suck to some degree.

Especially sucky are those little round levels.

I have an iGaging AngleCube and a couple of spirit levels that seem to match pretty good...and some spirit levels that don't. So, I just use the ones that do and decree that to be my standard. Then I check against a plumb bob because I'm anal lol

Edit: and my iGaging and the couple of spirit levels that match it also match my Send-it Level...so, right or wrong, that's my standard.

Amazon.com

If you look around, somewhere on here @Lowlight and some others posted the math comparing cant of the scope on the rifle and actually canting the rifle. The later has a very greater impact on POI than a couple of degrees of cant on the scope mounting.

Cheers

smoothy8500 · Friday at 11:25 AM

Who cares what item is perfectly "level"....Accept it as visually "level" and use it to maintain a repeatable shooting platform.

Holliday · Friday at 11:38 AM

j-moose32 said:
View attachment 8582182 View attachment 8582182

It has been my experience that those round bubble levels are not very good, as installed.

Have you verified the accuracy of that straight bubble? See image below.

I recommend these Stablia pocket levels for the money but test it when you purchase. I have not found one bad yet. There are much more expensive machinists levels but these work well for this application.

Amazon Link ~~>

https://a.co/d/2sOGrrh

Lowlight · Friday at 12:24 PM

I can’t find the picture on
My phone but the leveling kits are shit and individual spirit levels suck ass

The electronic ones are better if you want to run them

Found it

j-moose32 · Friday at 2:41 PM

Lowlight said:
I can’t find the picture on
My phone but the leveling kits are shit and individual spirit levels suck ass

The electronic ones are better if you want to run them

Found it View attachment 8582530

Holy shit, that’s terrible.

And thanks for all the other feedback gents. I’ll level it for now and use the plumb bob for the reticle. As I get a better level I’ll recheck everything. I’ll probably end up getting a better torque wrench as well

j-moose32 · Friday at 2:42 PM

Holliday said:
It has been my experience that those round bubble levels are not very good, as installed.

Have you verified the accuracy of that straight bubble? See image below.

I recommend these Stablia pocket levels for the money but test it when you purchase. I have not found one bad yet. There are much more expensive machinists levels but these work well for this application.

Amazon Link ~~>
https://a.co/d/2sOGrrh

View attachment 8582518

Ordering the one you linked now. Thanks

Holliday · Friday at 4:06 PM

j-moose32 said:
Ordering the one you linked now. Thanks

Hope you like it. Be sure to do the “test”.

It does have a pretty strong magnet, so keep it away from your Kestrel.

j-moose32 · Friday at 4:54 PM

Holliday said:
Hope you like it. Be sure to do the “test”.

It does have a pretty strong magnet, so keep it away from your Kestrel.

I just did the test with my current small levels. All failed , ha

rcxrc · Friday at 7:40 PM

Some years ago I got fed up with inconsistent bubble levels, even from "brand name" sporting optics companies. I had an i-gage for wood working, as well as a couple of Stabila digital levels, and they were usually "good enough", but for (drum roll) "precision", I went on the 'Bay and picked up a lightly used Swiss made Wyler brand precision spirit bubble level. Like the stuff Starrett used to make (unfortunately mostly made overseas now). Around $80 used (new like $200); ~ 2-1/2" length, .3mm/m accuracy, which translates to .0172 degree resolution per scale division. Like close to 1/60th of a degree accuracy. Using it was like ripping out nose hairs, but in reverse...immediate relief, but then the sharp pain. I'd chase my tail forever trying to get everything "just right". Sometimes, too much "precision / accuracy" is just that...too much. I tried it out on the Badger Dead Leval I got just as they were first coming out. I found the base base plate had something like 1/10th degree or less "curve" from front to back. The rail was off just a touch more. This is easily explained simply from the raw material processing, and/or tightening the screws holding the rail down to the base plate, or maybe even from drilling the holes to mount the feet. It really is a miniscule difference. Using a certified machinist's surface plate (or other precise tools at that level, like ridiculously accurate spirit bubble levels) is extremely expensive, sometimes cost prohibitively so, and can set you up for frustration (and a lot of wasted time over "details"), just like anything else (who else gets tired of waiting for high-accuracy powder tricklers to "settle down" and slowly throw a charge - vs just using an old fashioned powder drop that is within .1 or .2 gr and is "good enough"). I'll still occassionally play with the .3mm/m spirit level, but have since picked up more "usable" 1mm/m (.057 degree or 1/18th degree) and 2mm/m (.1146 degree or ~ 1/9th degree) spirit levels and mostly use those. They are "good enough" or better.

In short, the Dead Level is "good enough" for what I need to do. YMMV, of course.

Screw-on Spirit Level 66

www.wylerag.com

Sola, Stabila and Bethel acrylic mini spirit levels on eBay are listed as being 1mm/m accurate (approx 1/18th degree), and are under $20 bucks. Lots of similar items to be had, if the specs are to be believed.

_Windrider_ · Saturday at 7:45 AM

I’ve used the badger dead level for years and have never had an issue. But my method has always been to use that bubble level as a starting reference but I always hang a bob and do the reticle off that. But I can say they are always extremely close.

Lowlight · Saturday at 8:08 AM

My level on my Badger is actually dead, it’s not a level anymore so I just square it to the rail like I would on the gun

Deck of cards underneath style

MO Fugga · Saturday at 8:14 AM

Lowlight said:
My level on my Badger is actually dead, it’s not a level anymore so I just square it to the rail like I would on the gun

Deck of cards underneath style

I was going to dare ask the consensus about using a feeler gauge between the turret bottom and rail.

ACard · Saturday at 9:05 AM

Holliday said:
It has been my experience that those round bubble levels are not very good, as installed.

Have you verified the accuracy of that straight bubble? See image below.

I recommend these Stablia pocket levels for the money but test it when you purchase. I have not found one bad yet. There are much more expensive machinists levels but these work well for this application.

Amazon Link ~~>
https://a.co/d/2sOGrrh

View attachment 8582518

They are great, another more reasonable source fyi

https://www.kctool.com/stabila-pocket-level-pro-magnetic/

DownhillFromHere · Saturday at 9:37 AM

Once upon a time I compared the level in my iPhone built-in "Measure" app to a machinist's fancy level. They matched. Fwiw.

Easy button for leveling a scope to the rail is one of the "cheep" wedge levelers from Amazon or somesuch. I picked up a more expensive Arisaka wedge leveler off a prize table a couple years ago.

.

Lowlight · Saturday at 9:45 AM

We carried feeler gauges for ever but you normally have to put two kits together with a few set ups

I use cards, business or playing

ironpony52 · Saturday at 9:49 AM

A little late to the party but I agree with most of what was already said. Bubble levels are bad, you need a high quality machinist level at least. Electronics are nice as you can do the calibration sequence to verify.

ironpony52 · Saturday at 9:50 AM

Lowlight said:
We carried feeler gauges for ever but you normally have to put two kits together with a few set ups

I use cards, business or playing

This is how I have been doing it lately

j-moose32 · Saturday at 10:44 AM

I normally try to level the rail (will use a better bubble level in future) and then align the reticle with the plumb bob.

Any video on leveling it with business cards?

hangunnr · Saturday at 11:51 AM

After seeing this thread I had to check out the jig I made several years back. Pretty damn close…
Tried getting it perfect by shimming it with a piece of .002” tape and that was a bit too much.

Made up another device using a “bullseye” level. Went through a handful of them before I found an accurate one.

Holliday · Saturday at 11:55 AM

hangunnr said:
After seeing this thread I had to check out the jig I made several years back. Pretty damn close…
Tried getting it perfect by shimming it with a piece of .002” tape and that was a bit too much.

Made up another device using a “bullseye” level. Went through a handful of them before I found an accurate one.

Now spin the Stablia 180° to verify it reads the same……

Sweet looking rig. You should go into production on those.

What is the gray base material?

Holliday · Saturday at 12:25 PM

I was looking at a Badger but they were out of stock at the time so I built this using the SAC Final scope Level and the Arca mounting base. QD orange handles added after this picture.

This plate of steel is heavy and stays put. The feet are adjustable and the SAC Final scope Level section pops off via the Arca and the QD handles so it can be used on a tripod as well.

I started trying to use the Starrett but went to a Stablia. I still need to round the edges on the steel and give it a paint job.

sgtsmmiii · Saturday at 12:49 PM

hangunnr said:
After seeing this thread I had to check out the jig I made several years back. Pretty damn close…
Tried getting it perfect by shimming it with a piece of .002” tape and that was a bit too much.

Made up another device using a “bullseye” level. Went through a handful of them before I found an accurate one.

Real life picture of a unicorn.

LOL. Very nice!

hangunnr · Saturday at 2:07 PM

Holliday said:
Now spin the Stablia 180° to verify it reads the same……

Sweet looking rig. You should go into production on those.

What is the gray base material?

The base is made from a piece of Corian (sp?) countertop.

I have made one other as a gift to a buddy, wouldn’t feel right selling them as I clearly copied Badgers design.

Holliday · Saturday at 2:44 PM

hangunnr said:
The base is made from a piece of Corian (sp?) countertop.

I suspected that was what it was. I was a cabinet maker when that became popular.

I chose heavy steel because I wanted to be able to place it on the concrete bench at the range and have it rock solid. Especially with our Wyoming wind.

Baron23 · Saturday at 8:50 PM

Holliday said:
I suspected that was what it was. I was a cabinet maker when that became popular.

I chose heavy steel because I wanted to be able to place it on the concrete bench at the range and have it rock solid. Especially with our Wyoming wind.

I was about to say that being heavy makes it suitable for doing scope tracking tests as well as leveling a scope.

The Target USA ones are very nice....and very expensive.

Cheers

Edsel · Saturday at 8:55 PM

Personally sold on everything Stabila.

Holliday · Saturday at 8:55 PM

Baron23 said:
I was about to say that being heavy makes it suitable for doing scope tracking tests as well as leveling a scope.

The Target USA ones are very nice....and very expensive.

Cheers

Well my turned out to be pretty damn expensive. A lot more than the Badger. But that’s what always happens when I make things.

Holliday · Saturday at 9:04 PM

Edsel said:
Personally sold on everything Stabila.

I was a carpenter/ builder for 25 years of my younger life. When Stablia came on the scene they were the gold standard.

I have the small 2” one, a 30” (if memory serves) and a 72” (again from memory). Had the two larger ones 30 years now and they still look work like new.

The 72” I bought for hanging/tweaking doors. What a dream to use. Had an old masons mahogany 4’ that I never replaced it has one vial marked as being off. Even though it served me well, I regret not replacing that with a Stablia too.

Baron23 · Saturday at 9:27 PM

Holliday said:
Well my turned out to be pretty damn expensive. A lot more than the Badger. But that’s what always happens when I make things.

Ah yeah...more than Badger but the Badger isn't really hefty enough for scope tracking, IMO.

And your fixture....it wasn't more than this, right? haha They are really nice fixtures and I'm glad my good friend bought one so I get to borrow it for scope tracking tests.

Scope Tools

Scope Tool Scope track testing base. Design for Marc Taylor with Alaska Precision Rifle and Frank Galli with Sniper's Hide to check the scopes ability to track properly and return to zero on a...

www.targetsusa.com

Holliday · Saturday at 9:44 PM

Baron23 said:
Ah yeah...more than Badger but the Badger isn't really hefty enough for scope tracking, IMO.

And your fixture....it wasn't more than this, right? haha They are really nice fixtures and I'm glad my good friend bought one so I get to borrow it for scope tracking tests.

Scope Tools

Scope Tool Scope track testing base. Design for Marc Taylor with Alaska Precision Rifle and Frank Galli with Sniper's Hide to check the scopes ability to track properly and return to zero on a...

www.targetsusa.com

View attachment 8583805

That’s nice! Actually I believe it was more….. Those SAC parts are pricey.

j-moose32 · 2025-01-05T20:20:18-0500

Got the stabila level just now. It passed the 180* test

ironpony52 · 2025-01-05T20:45:49-0500

So I have a thought here and I have done it this way and it might be better/easier/more accurate if I am following what you are trying to accomplish. You are trying to level/square the scope to the rail, correct ?

I have used a surface plate with a machinist square and lined up the vertical cross hair to the square, same thing I believe and a lot less error possibilities, no ?

You are trying to level the jig and then use a plumb bob to line up the cross hair, why not eliminate the leveling error ?
Now to be fair I do run CNC grinders and make linear motion bearing blocks to within 7 microns so I might have better materials, resources to accomplish this.
I can surface the plate mount the rail and surface the rail to the plate within 4 microns easily.

Holliday · 2025-01-05T20:52:56-0500

j-moose32 said:
Got the stabila level just now. It passed the 180* test

Damn that was fast. Here in Wyoming they treat us Prime customers like redheaded stepchildren. My deliveries take typically a week.

Holliday · 2025-01-05T20:53:46-0500

ironpony52 said:
So I have a thought here and I have done it this way and it might be better/easier/more accurate if I am following what you are trying to accomplish. You are trying to level/square the scope to the rail, correct ?

I have used a surface plate with a machinist square and lined up the vertical cross hair to the square, same thing I believe and a lot less error possibilities, no ?

You are trying to level the jig and then use a plumb bob to line up the cross hair, why not eliminate the leveling error ?
Now to be fair I do run CNC grinders and make linear motion bearing blocks to within 7 microns so I might have better materials, resources to accomplish this.
I can surface the plate mount the rail and surface the rail to the plate within 4 microns easily.

Ok sending you my steel plate

ironpony52 · 2025-01-05T21:00:40-0500

Holliday said:
Ok sending you my steel plate

So I am thinking correct ? as to what you are trying to accomplish ?

Holliday · 2025-01-05T21:19:23-0500

ironpony52 said:
So I am thinking correct ? as to what you are trying to accomplish ?

Just kidding. Damn @Baron23 posted a pic of that fancy SH plate and now I have plate envy…….

Baron23 · 2025-01-05T22:29:03-0500

ironpony52 said:
So I am thinking correct ? as to what you are trying to accomplish ?

The subject is indeed leveling a scope to the rifle (or really the scope rail).

The USA Targets fixture I posted above can be used for that but it’s prob overkill. But to do scope tracking tests you really need a fixture that can be leveled and is heavy enough to not budge as you rotate the turrets. And that sucker is heavy.

The one my buddy has “Snipers Hide” on it and was an early model. He says he paid a lot less than the $400 they now want.

But, it’s really the sort of item that can be easily shared by a group of shooters, or a gun club, as it’s not something that’s used all that often.

Cheers.

Holliday · 2025-01-05T22:38:13-0500

Baron23 said:
But to do scope tracking tests you really need a fixture that can be leveled and is heavy enough to not budge as you rotate the turrets. And that sucker is heavy.

This was the intent of mine. I even ordered the SH tracking test targets.

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Badger Ordinance Dead Level not level?

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