55’s not fully cycling in 223 Wylde 18”

K

KneverKnew

Private
Minuteman
Jan 20, 2019
99
24
#1
My boys wanted me to start loading some bulk 223/5.56 rounds so they can do more shooting with their AR’s.

I put together several loads and tested them at the range yesterday. All functioned fine except the hornady 55 FMJ’s. While they actually gave one of the best groups of the day, they failed to cycle properly. Most would eject and reset trigger but failed to strip next round. This happened with multiple mags. Several would try to strip next round but road over the rim of the case and cartridge was bound up between bolt and chamber. I’m not sure why, as the velocity average was 2905 fps from my 18” 1/7 twist BA 223 Wylde barrel mid length gas, standard gas block and carbine spring/buffer. Any thoughts what the issue might be. All the others functioned fine.

Here are the loads:

Hornady 55 grain FMJ
R-P cases
CCI 41 primers
OAL- 2.204”
Lee Factory crimp in canalure.
TAC 24.5
V= 2905 FPS

SS-109 62 grain FMJ (pulls)
IVI 85 NATO cases
CCI 41 primers
OAL- 2.243”
Lee Factory crimp in canalure.
TAC 24.5
V= 2849 FPS

SMK 77 grain HPBT
R-P cases
CCI 41 primers
OAL- 2.26”
Lee Factory crimp
TAC 22.5
V= 2472 FPS
TAC 22.8
V= 2510
TAC 23.0
V= 2527
TAC 23.2
V= 2560
 
#3
Until now my AR hasn’t failed with any factory ammo or reloads.
Could 2900 fps be too slow for the 55’s? Doesn’t seem so to me. It’s like it was just barely not making it back far enough to properly cycle. As if just a little more speed/ pressure it would cycle properly. Obviously my next step is to load some stronger charges. That load listed for the 55’s was not max.
 
#4
IMG_8595.jpeg

Probably too light. This is 55 FMJ factory load-out of a 13.5" barrel!
 
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#6
I have a PWS Mk118 with a .223 Wylde chamber that does this occasionally as well when I run the adjustable gas block on its lowest gas setting. One click more gas and it all runs great. if you do not have an adjustable gas block and really want the load to run you could try a lighter buffer or buffer spring.
 
#8
SortOfClear said:
View attachment 8580869
Probably too light. This is 55 FMJ factory load-out of a 13.5" barrel!
Click to expand...
I’m loading up more now with stronger charges
Graves14 said:
I have a PWS Mk118 with a .223 Wylde chamber that does this occasionally as well when I run the adjustable gas block on its lowest gas setting. One click more gas and it all runs great. if you do not have an adjustable gas block and really want the load to run you could try a lighter buffer or buffer spring.
Click to expand...
I do not have adjustable gas block in this rifle. My buffer weighs 2.95 oz. I think my 18” BA barrel has a rifle length gas system instead of mid.
 
#10
Well the same load functioned fine through my sons AR, but then I tried a few more through mine and this time they seemed to work although the bolt didn’t lock back. I have new loads with a little more powder I’m going to try.
 
#11
KneverKnew said:
Well the same load functioned fine through my sons AR, but then I tried a few more through mine and this time they seemed to work although the bolt didn’t lock back. I have new loads with a little more powder I’m going to try.
Click to expand...
Open your gas port a half turn ,then a full turn if that doesn't fix cycling . You might have a stiff spring also .

The velocity isn't an issue ,the gas pulse is . For shits and giggles You could also run a different powder with those 55's and compare cycling .

Example NOT to follow : I purchased some Turan ( Turkish ammo ) says M193 55 Gr. 3166 fps Military spec .

Shoots really nice tight groups for mass produced ammo ,cases are also Nice for reloading . Problem it WON'T cycle ANY of MY AR's Stock or hopped up regardless of Make model or components installed . The Powder is WRONG for any US gas gun system ,I'm aware of !.
 
#12
I don’t g fave an adjustable on my rifle just yet. I have one just not installed. I’m testing with TAC but I also have some 2230 to try. Looking for powder that meters well from hornady AP press powder drop for bulk loading. I have lots of other better powders for accuracy and whatnot but don’t meter well, like Varget or N-140, and others. I use my Lyman digital dispenser scale for precision loads with those powders. Just trying to find a good powder and load to pump out a bulk batch.
 
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#15
Everyone is being so helpful. Thank you. I am slowly working my loads up to the levels you’ve indicated with TAC. It definately meters fairly consistent. Not perfect but close enough for bulk.
 
#16
Even though you don't have adjustable gas block, the gas block may be installed "flush" with the ledge, thus only "partially" open hole to get gas. Thus it still works, but you are probably taking some off of it from non lined up hole. That is my guess, as I see this issue over and over and over and over. That, or the buffer is like 5 oz or spring is heavy. If its all stock 3 oz and regular carbine spring, then I would bet its the gas block alignment.

Other more rare issues are:
upper has too much friction on bolt, you can easily find this issue from excessive rubbing/wear on the actual BCG
The charging handle is slightly bent. Thus causing friction. Easy to find this.
These 2 issues can be FOUND easily, by simply, with 2 fingers, pulling the BCG & Charging handle in and out from fully in. They should slide easily and not get stuck anywhere.

2900 FPS is not too low for 55 grains, as some AR15's can cycle as low as 2600 FPS using 55 grain depending on the powder. For example, Tac Rifle can cycle the gun with some pretty low FPS, but Varget cannot. But at 2900 I would say every single powder can do it easy.

iu

See how on "this model" there is a small gap between ledge and block? Some are flush, some have 2x that gap. They all different.
 
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#17
Best way to figure out part of the gas port / block alignment problem is to blow into the barrel with the breech end capped by one hand, while fiddling with the gas block position.

You can tell what’s going on by the pressure in your cheeks and the sound that the air makes.
 
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#18
semperfireloading said:
Even though you don't have adjustable gas block, the gas block may be installed "flush" with the ledge, thus only "partially" open hole to get gas. Thus it still works, but you are probably taking some off of it from non lined up hole. That is my guess, as I see this issue over and over and over and over. That, or the buffer is like 5 oz or spring is heavy. If its all stock 3 oz and regular carbine spring, then I would bet its the gas block alignment.

Other more rare issues are:
upper has too much friction on bolt, you can easily find this issue from excessive rubbing/wear on the actual BCG
The charging handle is slightly bent. Thus causing friction. Easy to find this.
These 2 issues can be FOUND easily, by simply, with 2 fingers, pulling the BCG & Charging handle in and out from fully in. They should slide easily and not get stuck anywhere.

2900 FPS is not too low for 55 grains, as some AR15's can cycle as low as 2600 FPS using 55 grain depending on the powder. For example, Tac Rifle can cycle the gun with some pretty low FPS, but Varget cannot. But at 2900 I would say every single powder can do it easy.

iu

See how on "this model" there is a small gap between ledge and block? Some are flush, some have 2x that gap. They all different.
Click to expand...
I agree with your assessment. My gas block is positioned flush against the gas block journal rear shoulder. I’m pulling it today to check the powder marks on the barrel around the gas port. I’ve noticed no excess friction points on the BCG. It runs smoothly in the upper by hand. I will also measure my gas port size to verify that isn’t the issue. If too small I will look for proper drill bit size to enlarge and then mount my adjustable block. It would be great to get these 55’s running properly as they have given great groups so far, at least at 50 yards. Once I resolve these issues I’ll move further out to see how they open up.
 
#19
Yesterday I went back out to the range for further testing with the 55’s. Long story short, everything seemed to work better at first. It was 55° as opposed to 76° the other day when I had such problems. Not sure if this was affecting things. I was zeroing a scope this time instead of Romeo 5 + Juliet 3 magnifier to be a little more precise. I mounted a Burris E1 2-7x running at 7x.
I used my remaining 55’s in IVI 85 NATO cases and 24.5 gr TAC. These are the ones that gave such problems the other day. They ran fine. ???
Just didn’t lock back. I continued with increasing charges in R-P brass and started out fine but progressively got worse, even once I broke 3000 fps. It must be a gas issue. Probably my poor alignment.
 
#20
Here are my results from range tests yesterday 1/2/2025. 55° at 50 yards. I tested mostly the 55 grain bullets with increasing charges of TAC powder. I did test one load of N–140 under 77 SMK’s. Those seem to function fine, and lock back. The first target shows my adjustments to zero the scope with the final five shot group at center. As you can see that particular load of 24.5 grains TAC groups nicely. If only it would cycle properly.

IMG_0721.jpeg

IMG_0722.jpeg

IMG_0723.jpeg

IMG_0724.jpeg


IMG_0725.jpeg

IMG_0726.jpeg

IMG_0727.jpeg
 
#21
Looks like gas block was lined up enough. But I discovered I have failed my marine corp training/ brainwashing and never deep cleaned my rifle since the last time I shot with a suppressor. It was disgustingly dirty. Not sure if that would lend to the issue. If not, the only other possibility is gas port too small.
 

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#22
I am Marines. I am not brainwashed though. Anyway, here are some observations.

There could be some excessive leakage of gas. and the gas hole looks right. it should be around 82k in size. What you can do is "chamfer" the gas block slightly so its more forgiving. Also, check how clean the gas tube is, see if it flows easily. Blow on it. Doesn't look bad. I still bet on gas issue. In 55 grain bullets (TAC), all AR15 should cycle as low as around 24 grains or even less. Optimal load for 55 grain using TAC is 26.0 grains.

Good luck
 
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#23
semperfireloading said:
I am Marines. I am not brainwashed though. Anyway, here are some observations.

There could be some excessive leakage of gas. and the gas hole looks right. it should be around 82k in size. What you can do is "chamfer" the gas block slightly so its more forgiving. Also, check how clean the gas tube is, see if it flows easily. Blow on it. Doesn't look bad. I still bet on gas issue. In 55 grain bullets (TAC), all AR15 should cycle as low as around 24 grains or even less. Optimal load for 55 grain using TAC is 26.0 grains.

Good luck
Click to expand...
I did blow on gas tube to check clearance. It’s fine. I cleaned thoroughly though. Che led gas key and it’s tight. I noticed a lot of gas residue around tube where it enters upper receiver. I’m going to get it all good and clean and try again, picking up where I left off at 25.7 I believe it was. Will ease my way towards 27 if I can get it that far. I really shouldn’t have let my weapon get that dirty. Now I’m pulling out all of them one at a time and doing a thorough clean. 🧽
 
#24
Try this .... Spray Free-All all into gas tube. Let sit for a minute or two then blow tube out with compressed air. Free-All has chemicals in it that dissolve powder and carbon . This fixed my issue that occurs after shooting dirty ammo
 
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#28
semperfireloading said:
This guy said he is Marines. So MAX is whatever charge blows the primers. And book max are for the Civilians.
Click to expand...
I resemble that remark!!
I do my best to follow published guidelines in my years of reloading, but I do find it interesting how many times I’ve found that a max load listed ISN’T. Meaning, I quite often find, after slowly working up to the max load, I find no pressure signs at those levels. Generally I don’t continue at that level but back back down to a reasonable level. Most times max or over max doesn’t give best accuracy.
 
#29
KneverKnew said:
Looks like gas block was lined up enough. But I discovered I have failed my marine corp training/ brainwashing and never deep cleaned my rifle since the last time I shot with a suppressor. It was disgustingly dirty. Not sure if that would lend to the issue. If not, the only other possibility is gas port too small.
Click to expand...
I was going to suggest cleaning and lubing the gun.
 
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#31
It has been suggested to me that my bolt may be traveling too fast since it tends to override the next cartridge and jam it in the chamber, halfway pinching the cartridge. I’m not sure if it matters, but one thing I neglected to mention was my ejection pattern. Most all rounds that function properly and the ones that would not cycle properly or caused an override or ejecting at about 430 and would sometimes land on the table next to me or go out 4 to 6 feet. I believe some of the ones on the table were just being caught by my range bag and they would have gone on out further. I will finish cleaning the gun and lubing it today and will reattach the existing gas block and tube to try again and possibly try a heavier buffer to see what happens. Removing the gas block tube will require cutting the pressure washer off.
 
#35
KneverKnew said:
Looks like gas block was lined up enough. But I discovered I have failed my marine corp training/ brainwashing and never deep cleaned my rifle since the last time I shot with a suppressor. It was disgustingly dirty. Not sure if that would lend to the issue. If not, the only other possibility is gas port too small.
Click to expand...
MEASURE the port while it's open ,BEFORE doing any Drilling . IF it's not 0.088" MAKE it so for 18" tube Rifle gas .

I run Mine at 0.092" ,yet all My barrels are minimum 20" and I've had zero issues with any factory ( other than Turan M193 crap ) loads or hand loads . Either that or run a lighter spring ,as it's not allowing the bolt full travel ,thus not locking back .

Below with a Bone Stock XM15 A2 Bushmaster 20" ,in Early 90's at a LEO shooting event ,demonstrating precision handloads .

Same POA ,ran #5 Winchester white box crap ,then one of My foulers purposely low . I then popped #15 bulk 55 gr. Winchester bullets W/C no less ,using 25.5 Gr. BLC-2 all cover with a dime and leave change at 200 yd. Hell I was using a Simmons AETEC scope and off the turf with NO mat just a pack for a rest . I later swapped out that scope with a Nikon Monarch 3 .

Don't ever let someone tell you chrome lined bores are no good for accuracy ,one of the biggest BS stories of all time .

They spared No expense for targets however Chow was Great . ;)
 

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#36
I vote it’s over gassed already unless it has a very small port like .062 or something.
If I read correctly this is a mid length gas 18 inch barrel. I would go h1 as a minimum for a buffer.
Does this happen with quality factory ammo as well?
 
#37
Amazon order tungsten weighs and make your own buffer weights on the fly. Your velocity seems ok cuz i just started development on my 20" WOA barrel and it is in the same range...BUT. I run adj gas blocks on all my rifles and was shooting suppressed. On that cold day 22.8 to 23.4 of tac n 77gr tmk had best groups 23.4grs started showing high pressure signs.
 
#40
Your gas block should be about .025 off the shoulder of the barrel.

To verify the correct fore/aft alignment for your exact gas block/ barrel combo.
Take off the gas tube and remove the set screw under the gas port hole.
Put the gas block on the barrel upside down and get the barrel gas port dead center with the set screw hole opposite the gas block port opening. Take a set of feeler gauges and find the exact measurement from the gas block to the barrel shoulder.
Now all you have to do is reinstall the gas block normally and use the feeler gauges as a length jig.

For left/right alignment, I like using the gas block genie.
Mark a mark with a pencil and boom done.

If gas block alignment is not the case it may be a out of spec bolt or bolt carrier or worn/missing gas rings.
Diagnosed one for a friend and turned out the bolt carrier was out of spec and was too tight for the bolt . Did a quick fix by removing a single gas ring and then functioned normally
 
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#41
fedupflyer said:
Your gas block should be about .025 off the shoulder of the barrel.

To verify the correct fore/aft alignment for your exact gas block/ barrel combo.
Take off the gas tube and remove the set screw under the gas port hole.
Put the gas block on the barrel upside down and get the barrel gas port dead center with the set screw hole opposite the gas block port opening. Take a set of feeler gauges and find the exact measurement from the gas block to the barrel shoulder.
Now all you have to do is reinstall the gas block normally and use the feeler gauges as a length jig.

For left/right alignment, I like using the gas block genie.
Mark a mark with a pencil and boom done.

If gas block alignment is not the case it may be a out of spec bolt or bolt carrier or worn/missing gas rings.
Diagnosed one for a friend and turned out the bolt carrier was out of spec and was too tight for the bolt . Did a quick fix by removing a single gas ring and then functioned normally
Click to expand...
Gas block alighnement was checked. See around post 20. It's always helpful when people read the thread before responding rather than rehashing what's been hashed out already.
 
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#42
supercorndogs said:
Gas block alighnement was checked. See around post 20. It's always helpful when people read the thread before responding rather than rehashing what's been hashed out already
Click to expand...
Based on the pic the OP put up, the gas block is partially occluding the barrel gas port.
As in there is not enough offset between the gas block and the shoulder of the barrel.
Is this the culprit, maybe, maybe not.
 
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#44
fedupflyer said:
Based on the pic the OP put up, the gas block is partially occluding the barrel gas port.
As in there is not enough offset between the gas block and the shoulder of the barrel.
Is this the culprit, maybe, maybe not.
Click to expand...
1736474212615.jpeg


Look at it again. Nothing wrong here unless maybe TOO MUCH offset, which still isn't blocking the port at all.
 
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#45
IF one knows what they're doing you can lightly Lap a gas block to your barrel for a better fitment , IF need !. Also carefully placing Blue Loctite ensuring a better seal . MY opinion is just that but after buying a couple of AR'S way way back and before building a total of #17 now , I measure the gas port diameter and ensure NO burrs are left . Then use a formula obtained from Lija and Schneider and so far so good as ALL mine function flawlessly . I however don't suppress ,a little to late for this old dog .
 
#47
Weak pulse is erratic to seize at best . Take the Turan ammo M193 3166 fps ,fail to cycle any of my AR15's period . Wrong or incorrect pulse doesn't cut it . Enough gas pressure must come up the tube or it's too small a diameter , too fast a powder and charge pulse is insufficient to operate carrier . If the port and tube are clean and ammo cycles in other weapons ,you've got to look for the obvious solution .
RegionRat said:
Carpe Diem!
If you got a pulse, you are still in the game and it isn't too late.
Click to expand...
 
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#48
KneverKnew said:
My boys wanted me to start loading some bulk 223/5.56 rounds so they can do more shooting with their AR’s.

I put together several loads and tested them at the range yesterday. All functioned fine except the hornady 55 FMJ’s. While they actually gave one of the best groups of the day, they failed to cycle properly. Most would eject and reset trigger but failed to strip next round. This happened with multiple mags. Several would try to strip next round but road over the rim of the case and cartridge was bound up between bolt and chamber. I’m not sure why, as the velocity average was 2905 fps from my 18” 1/7 twist BA 223 Wylde barrel mid length gas, standard gas block and carbine spring/buffer. Any thoughts what the issue might be. All the others functioned fine.

Here are the loads:

Hornady 55 grain FMJ
R-P cases
CCI 41 primers
OAL- 2.204”
Lee Factory crimp in canalure.
TAC 24.5
V= 2905 FPS

SS-109 62 grain FMJ (pulls)
IVI 85 NATO cases
CCI 41 primers
OAL- 2.243”
Lee Factory crimp in canalure.
TAC 24.5
V= 2849 FPS

SMK 77 grain HPBT
R-P cases
CCI 41 primers
OAL- 2.26”
Lee Factory crimp
TAC 22.5
V= 2472 FPS
TAC 22.8
V= 2510
TAC 23.0
V= 2527
TAC 23.2
V= 2560
Click to expand...
Im currently trying to troubleshoot a similar short stroking issue with my 14.5” mid length Geissele super duty upper shooting 77smk’s with 24gr tac. This exact load used to function fine but my last few trips its failing to feed and failing to lock back. The only thing I have changed was being more diligent to whack down the carbon ring after each use. My theory is the lack of carbon ring is causing less pressure in chamber resulting in less gas coming back.

The first thing I checked was if my gas rings were worn but they are fine. Then I lowered my buffer weight from h2 down to carbine (all steel) (im using the super 42 buffer spring) and will try the exact same loads again (with carbon ring free throat) to see if I still get short stroking. I will also make sure to lube the gas rings/bolt/bcg a little more as I was running a little dry last time.

If that doesn’t work I will try putting some solvent down the breach end of the gas tube and blow it out.

Will let you know what happens next time I go to the range in a few days.
 
#49
WeR0206 said:
My theory is the lack of carbon ring is causing less pressure in chamber resulting in less gas coming back.
Click to expand...
This isn't how an AR is supposed to run with anything close to a standard load.

In other words, if you were unlucky and made a mistake and tuned your action to an over-pressure, then yes by eliminating the overpressure you would assume you would then also need to re-balance the function. However...

If that isn't what you did, then something else is wrong. Your rig didn't come with an adjustable gas block unless you modified it.

The Geiselle SuperDuty 14.5" isn't some cheap low quality clone, it is supposed to be a inexpensive no-nonsense good quality reliable rig. The gas port is 0.076" and the gas block is a compact.
Maybe ring them and see if they can get you back in shape.

Your Super 42 and H2 buffer, combined with your 7 twist, means your rig was intended to run 77 OTM loads, but it should still have the flexibility to run 55 grain loads in a pinch.

If the gun isn't cycling after a good cleaning with "normal loads", and the gas rings are installed properly, something else is wrong and we are just missing it.

See if any of your friends know who runs the local PD's armory or if there is a club nearby with any AR armorers. A standard AR is not difficult to debug for a well trained armorer. Good Luck and in for the range reports.
 
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#50
RegionRat said:
This isn't how an AR is supposed to run with anything close to a standard load.

In other words, if you were unlucky and made a mistake and tuned your action to an over-pressure, then yes by eliminating the overpressure you would assume you would then also need to re-balance the function. However...

If that isn't what you did, then something else is wrong. Your rig didn't come with an adjustable gas block unless you modified it.

The Geiselle SuperDuty 14.5" isn't some cheap low quality clone, it is supposed to be a inexpensive no-nonsense good quality reliable rig. The gas port is 0.076" and the gas block is a compact.
Maybe ring them and see if they can get you back in shape.

Your Super 42 and H2 buffer, combined with your 7 twist, means your rig was intended to run 77 OTM loads, but it should still have the flexibility to run 55 grain loads in a pinch.

If the gun isn't cycling after a good cleaning with "normal loads", and the gas rings are installed properly, something else is wrong and we are just missing it.

See if any of your friends know who runs the local PD's armory or if there is a club nearby with any AR armorers. A standard AR is not difficult to debug for a well trained armorer. Good Luck and in for the range reports.
Click to expand...
All very good points, thanks for the feedback. I was thinking the same (its odd that the lack of a carbon ring would cause low pressure issues bc if so brand new guns wouldn’t cycle unless using very spicy loads). Ill be at the range again later this week and I now have a garmin chrono and some black hills mk 262 factory loads to test the cycling on. That should give me a good baseline and if it still doesn’t cycle I will definitely be contacting geissele. Im done fucking around with buffer weights. Everything ran fine for hundreds/thousands of factory and hand loaded 5.56 rounds (50-77gr) with an h2 buffer plus super 42 spring.
 
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