Thermal Coyote hunting round

***Hambone00*** · Saturday at 8:10 PM

Hey guys, first post. I’ve been night hunting coyotes with thermals for a few years now. While .223 has always been one of my favorite rounds for coyote hunting during the day, it just does not get it done as good during the night. Have had a ton of runners between my 2 buddies and I that I hunt with. So I’ve decided that I’m going to fix that and build an AR to where I I won’t have to worry about runners.
** I DO NOT CARE ABOUT RUINING FUR**
The cheaper the better, I usually build them up with better parts of my choosing so don’t mind a cheaper rifle.
Lighter obviously is better but I’m not against going to an ar 10.
Factory ammo only, I don’t reload. Cheaper the better. 22 cm is out of my budget.

Obviously the least recoil the better for
Follow up shots

Thought about turning my current night rifle into a .204 and then saw someone say they are pretty fur friendly. These coyotes have me angry! Let me know your guys thoughts!!

smcfarland · Sunday at 3:28 PM

6.5 Creedmoor shooting factory Hornady 100 ELD VT would get my vote. Was having similar issues with pigs and 5.56, not so much anymore since changing.

Namekagon · Sunday at 4:00 PM

I built a 224 Valkyrie for this exact reason. It definitely helped reduce runners, I don’t think I’ve had one since. I use the old federal 60gr Nosler loads at 3300fps. They don’t make that one anymore, but hornady offers a 60gr Vmax offering at 3300 listed MV.

You can convert a 223 to a Valkyrie with a barrel and a bolt. Regular 223 mags work, but 6.8SPC mags work better.

Old Man with Gun · Sunday at 4:06 PM

I don't think 204 will be noticably better than 223. Sticking with a small frame AR, 6.5 Grendel or 6 ARC are obvious choices.

Why does 223 work by day, but not at night? If shot placement is the issue, changing the rifle will not help.

What 223 ammo and barrel length are you using?

Aftermath · Sunday at 4:36 PM

I use AR 223 20", TBAC ULTRA and Federal 53 gr VMAX, aiming with an Nvision HALO-XRF. Zero runners, instant death.

25 yards

140 ish yards

250 yards

John? · Sunday at 4:41 PM

Old Man with Gun said:
I don't think 204 will be noticably better than 223. Sticking with a small frame AR, 6.5 Grendel or 6 ARC are obvious choices.

Why does 223 work by day, but not at night? If shot placement is the issue, changing the rifle will not help.

What 223 ammo and barrel length are you using?

I agree with this. We shoot them with 223 day and night using 55grain SP. Drops them on the spot. Thermal is a gen 1 Steiner S35, which is far from the best optic but suits our conditions well enough.

I am still sorting out 6.5Grendel in a bolt gun. It works well enough for yodel dogs. Just can’t convince myself to take the plunge to buy a small frame AR in 6.5Grendel tho.

***Hambone00*** · Monday at 10:36 AM

Old Man with Gun said:
I don't think 204 will be noticably better than 223. Sticking with a small frame AR, 6.5 Grendel or 6 ARC are obvious choices.

Why does 223 work by day, but not at night? If shot placement is the issue, changing the rifle will not help.

What 223 ammo and barrel length are you using?

We’ve had some clear perfect shots right behind the shoulder and still had them run 50 yards. I don’t get why. I had buddies who are big competition hunters tell me the same thing before I got into the thermal game and I thought the same thing. I’m sure switching around trying a bunch of different bullets could help but I’m just looking to change the outcome in a quicker more guaranteed way. Plus it gives me. Reason to buy or build another gun

***Hambone00*** · Monday at 10:39 AM

Aftermath said:
I use AR 223 20", TBAC ULTRA and Federal 53 gr VMAX, aiming with an Nvision HALO-XRF. Zero runners, instant death.

25 yardsView attachment 8584322

140 ish yards
View attachment 8584325

250 yards
View attachment 8584328

Is that a big shorthair or are them coyotes rather small? I’m from Kansas and these dogs are big and really tough.

Old Man with Gun · Monday at 11:03 AM

A 6.5C with light bullets would shoot flat with authority.

Aftermath · Monday at 11:33 AM

***Hambone00*** said:
Is that a big shorthair or are them coyotes rather small? I’m from Kansas and these dogs are big and really tough.

Pretty big wirehaired pointer, about 70 lbs, but camera angle makes him seem even bigger. He likes to hunt, no matter the quarry. He LOVES the water and doesn't hesitate to jump in the pond to retrieve whatever. I'm working on him to be a decoy dog. He's definitely game, he won't let the neighbors dogs come around. But he is super friendly with humans...my UPS guy didn't know he got in his truck and was down the road going for a ride. I wouldn't have it any other way. He was standing over that coyote daring it to move...I kicked it a little and he was on it immediately, even though he knew it was dead.

That coyote is also a fairly small female, the other 2 are "regular" sized males. These are smaller coyotes, on average, than the ones we shot in Idaho. I just drag them away and pile them up for the buzzards, no interest in fur, but these 53 gr VMAX bullets, factory loads from Federal, are real fur friendly and as long as I hit them in the upper body or head, they drop dead instantly. Obviously, if you hit them on a leg or something, that won't work too well with any bullet. I generally just go for the heart/lung target.

lonestar1845 · Monday at 12:25 PM

I dumped a few this weekend with my 6 MAX. I was running 70 smk's at 3200 fps. Recoil is the same as my .223 rifles. Factory ammo can be bought for $1.50 a round right now but is much cheaper if you reload. It's just a barrel swap and cheap 350 legend mags. It uses the .223 bolt.

6 ARC would also be good. More factory ammo options at the moment and a little cheaper on the ammo.

Overwatch260 · Monday at 12:38 PM

I've been contemplating trying a 6 MAX barrel with lighter 6mm bullets myself since it's just a barrel/mag swap... Otherwise I've had good performance out of my .223 coyote rig with 69 & 77 TMKs. Might be worth trying a box or 2 of the heavier pills if your barrel twist will stabilize them ok?

lonestar1845 · Monday at 12:47 PM

I agree, I've had great results with 5.56. I built the 6 max for a dedicated thermal gun to do everything from dogs to big hogs, which the 5.56 struggle to roll up.

The 6 max barrels stabilize everything from 50-105's. I haven't tried the heavies yet because it's not what I built it for, but will play with them just to see. But so far the 70SMK and 90ELDX have shot fantastic. I'm getting close to 2900 with the 90's in an 18" barrel.

Overwatch260 · Monday at 12:57 PM

lonestar1845 said:
I agree, I've had great results with 5.56. I built the 6 max for a dedicated thermal gun to do everything from dogs to big hogs, which the 5.56 struggle to roll up.

The 6 max barrels stabilize everything from 50-105's. I haven't tried the heavies yet because it's not what I built it for, but will play with them just to see. But so far the 70SMK and 90ELDX have shot fantastic. I'm getting close to 2900 with the 90's in an 18" barrel.

Yessir I was thinking a short 11.5 or 12" 6 MAX would still sling the lighter 6mm bullets with a lot more authority than a 5.56 77 gr pill out of a similar length barrel... At least the early tests I've seen seemed to back up that thought! Might have to find out the hard way lol

lonestar1845 · Monday at 1:02 PM

I'm actually planning a 12" next just for that reason. I was waiting on the 30 round mags to be available.

Thomas Geistman · Monday at 4:41 PM

unless your stuck on a AR platform, you can get a lot better/more cartridge options in a bolt gun. Really don’t need a repeater for coyotes imo. I run a 6.5 Grendel at night. But I have to use it for everything at night, I don’t have two setups right now. My next thermal rig will be a 22 Creedmoor bolt action.

***Hambone00*** · Monday at 5:04 PM

Anyone have any thoughts or experience with .22 ARC?

Rancid Coolaid · Monday at 5:18 PM

I hunt yotes pretty regularly and think you have a bullet problem more than a rifle problem. That said, if you want a new gun, 6.5G is my go-to. I helped a friend set up a 6 ARC for the same purposes and he loves it, shoots flat, mild recoil.

Whatever gun you swap to, consider a varmint bullet, you don't care about what the bullet does to a gel block, you want explosion at the point of entry.

Last, behind the shoulder is not a perfect shot for a 55 gr SP in that animal, in the shoulder is better - or head or spine, better still. When that round hits bone, it grenades. Chances are, you are punching through with lethal effect, it just takes them a few seconds to figure that out. A dog can't run when its front legs don't work - I've seen several try.

***Hambone00*** · Monday at 7:42 PM

Rancid Coolaid said:
I hunt yotes pretty regularly and think you have a bullet problem more than a rifle problem. That said, if you want a new gun, 6.5G is my go-to. I helped a friend set up a 6 ARC for the same purposes and he loves it, shoots flat, mild recoil.

Whatever gun you swap to, consider a varmint bullet, you don't care about what the bullet does to a gel block, you want explosion at the point of entry.

Last, behind the shoulder is not a perfect shot for a 55 gr SP in that animal, in the shoulder is better - or head or spine, better still. When that round hits bone, it grenades. Chances are, you are punching through with lethal effect, it just takes them a few seconds to figure that out. A dog can't run when its front legs don't work - I've seen several try.

I actually just found a hell of a deal on 6.5 Grendel ar. It’s cheap and I can build it up with all the better parts as I go like I’d prefer anyhow. Only 16” barrel, you think I would want to change it out for a longer one or that would work fine?

***Hambone00*** · Monday at 7:46 PM

Thomas Geistman said:
unless your stuck on a AR platform, you can get a lot better/more cartridge options in a bolt gun. Really don’t need a repeater for coyotes imo. I run a 6.5 Grendel at night. But I have to use it for everything at night, I don’t have two setups right now. My next thermal rig will be a 22 Creedmoor bolt action.

I am pretty stuck on an AR as it will be strictly a night gun. I just like the ease of having follow up shots. I found a great deal on a 6.5 Grendel that I think I may go with. There’s been a few people that seem to be happy with that round

Old Man with Gun · Monday at 8:10 PM

***Hambone00*** said:
I actually just found a hell of a deal on 6.5 Grendel ar. It’s cheap and I can build it up with all the better parts as I go like I’d prefer anyhow. Only 16” barrel, you think I would want to change it out for a longer one or that would work fine?

16" should be fine, especially if you use lighter varmint bullets to flatten trajectory.

SkyScrapin · Monday at 8:11 PM

5.56 works. 6mm ARC works a little better.

For coyotes, I'd probably just switch projectiles, or run a 22 ARC.

For coyotes & pigs, 6mm ARC.

***Hambone00*** · Monday at 8:53 PM

Old Man with Gun said:
16" should be fine, especially if you use lighter varmint bullets to flatten trajectory.

I went ahead and pulled the trigger and ordered it. What bullets do you recommend? I’m usually a Hornady fan, but I’m definitely open for options from people who have experience with the round.

***Hambone00*** · Monday at 8:55 PM

I appreciate everyone’s replies. I went ahead and ordered a 6.5 Grendel Ar. Now I’m just looking on what the best recommendations for rounds for it!

John? · Monday at 8:58 PM

I have had good results from the 123 grain SST on yodel dogs and white tail. I have only been using the grendel about a year. Still trying to get it sorted. So far the Hornady factory ammunition has done the job

ETA. What rifle did you settle on? I keep pondering an AR platform while sorting the bolt gun

Old Man with Gun · Monday at 9:22 PM

123 SST is good to go. If you want flatter shooter might want to try 90 Varmagedon.

***Hambone00*** · Monday at 9:53 PM

John? said:
I have had good results from the 123 grain SST on yodel dogs and white tail. I have only been using the grendel about a year. Still trying to get it sorted. So far the Hornady factory ammunition has done the job

ETA. What rifle did you settle on? I keep pondering an AR platform while sorting the bolt gun

I ordered one from bear creek arsenal. Was on sale and got it shipped with tax for $420. I will put a timney trigger in it probably before I even shoot it. Have all carbon fiber stocks ready to go on it as well

***Hambone00*** · Monday at 10:08 PM

***Hambone00*** said:
I ordered one from bear creek arsenal. Was on sale and got it shipped with tax for $420. I will put a timney trigger in it probably before I even shoot it. Have all carbon fiber stocks ready to go on it as well

I’ll probably go with the Hornady V-Match 100 grain.

***Hambone00*** · Monday at 10:09 PM

Old Man with Gun said:
123 SST is good to go. If you want flatter shooter might want to try 90 Varmagedon.

I’ll probably go with the Hornady V-Match 100 grain. That Varmagedon ammo is pretty pricey

smcfarland · Monday at 10:17 PM

I would try at least a box of the Hornady 100 ELD VT to see how they group. They have been spectacular for terminal ballistics in my 6.5 Creedmoor. Granted will be traveling slower but should still work well.

Thomas Geistman · Monday at 10:29 PM

I have been shooting through the rest of my 123 grain SST hornady factory and it works pretty well. I run a 14.5”. I wouldn’t go shorter than that. 16” will be good. I also have some 100 grian VTs I’m gonna load up myself once I run out of these 123s. I think hornady is also offering it as a factory load.

Jsp556 · Monday at 10:42 PM

6.5 Grendel and 6 Arc hammer yotes. I’m averaging 2670 fps out of an 18” Grendel with 100gr ELDVT and 2790 fps out of a 16” 6 arc with the 80gr ELDVT. The farthest we’ve killed them at night with either is 300 yds and they’ve dropped in their tracks. One of the guys I hunt with killed one at 640 yards in the day time last week with a 20” Grendel shooting the 100’s. He claimed it was a bang/flop and I have no reason to doubt him. The closest you’re gonna get to that with 223 is gonna be with fast 69gr TMK’s out of a 20” or longer barrel in my experience.

I like my Grendels more than my 6 ARCs. Good luck.

Thomas Geistman · 2025-01-07T00:28:16-0500

I got these hogs Thursday night with a 6.5 Grendel. Ofcourse shot placement is the biggest factor, but if you can’t get the CNS shot then it’s even hard to take down corn fed hogs this size sometimes.

JohnDeereGuy1996 · 2025-01-07T08:55:33-0500

I use a 243 for night hunting. Killed 5-6 past 300 last week. Can run the 58-75 for yotes and go heavier for pigs. It’s really one of the most versatile cartridges there is.

***Hambone00*** · 2025-01-07T09:12:48-0500

Jsp556 said:
6.5 Grendel and 6 Arc hammer yotes. I’m averaging 2670 fps out of an 18” Grendel with 100gr ELDVT and 2790 fps out of a 16” 6 arc with the 80gr ELDVT. The farthest we’ve killed them at night with either is 300 yds and they’ve dropped in their tracks. One of the guys I hunt with killed one at 640 yards in the day time last week with a 20” Grendel shooting the 100’s. He claimed it was a bang/flop and I have no reason to doubt him. The closest you’re gonna get to that with 223 is gonna be with fast 69gr TMK’s out of a 20” or longer barrel in my experience.

I like my Grendels more than my 6 ARCs. Good luck.

90% of the time our shots are within 100 yards. There’s been a few times that we get opportunities at 200-300 but typically they don’t stop very long if they even do at all and they usually hang up because they get down wind so we usually just let them be instead of educating them any further. Right thing to do or not I’m not sure

***Hambone00*** · 2025-01-07T09:17:56-0500

smcfarland said:
I would try at least a box of the Hornady 100 ELD VT to see how they group. They have been spectacular for terminal ballistics in my 6.5 Creedmoor. Granted will be traveling slower but should still work well.

That’s what I’m going with. Want to stay as light as I can and that seems to be where the sweet spot will be for the Grendel on the Hornady factory ammo

Rancid Coolaid · 2025-01-07T10:14:47-0500

JohnDeereGuy1996 said:
I use a 243 for night hunting. Killed 5-6 past 300 last week. Can run the 58-75 for yotes and go heavier for pigs. It’s really one of the most versatile cartridges there is.

I have a 243AI I absolutely love for yotes and hogs, but it is a heavy bolt gun and not a stalker. That said, it is a laser and the most accurate rifle/round I have. For movement hunting, I stick with ARs just for comfort/confidence and easy of use.
My 6.5s get a steady diet of Hornady ammo, the 100s and 123s do well in both guns and both work well on yotes. As with any gun, figure out what the gun likes best and run with that.

Happy hunting!

***Hambone00*** · 2025-01-07T11:28:35-0500

So what magazines are you 6.5 Grendel guys running? Having a hard time finding some that are in stock so not many available. Ones that are available that I’ve seen have some mixed reviews

Jsp556 · 2025-01-07T11:31:41-0500

Duramags. 10 or 15 rounders. On the shelves at several shops locally

John? · 2025-01-07T11:47:44-0500

Jsp556 said:
Duramags. 10 or 15 rounders. On the shelves at several shops locally

This. Duramag work best in my bolt rifle. ASC not so much

Old Man with Gun · 2025-01-07T11:55:03-0500

***Hambone00*** said:
So what magazines are you 6.5 Grendel guys running? Having a hard time finding some that are in stock so not many available. Ones that are available that I’ve seen have some mixed reviews

Many of the mags with mixed reviews represent multiple generations of design changes and got better over time. I find the ACS 14 and E-Landers 17 are good in my two ARs. The 24rd E-Lander is good, but not as reliable as the 17 for me.

Thomas Geistman · 2025-01-07T15:51:16-0500

I’ll repeat what others are saying, I’ve had issues with ASC, but Duramag seems to be the ticket. I think I’m running the 15 round mags. I have some of the 25ish round mags too. I really want to try the new Geissele mag but they’re stupid expensive and can’t find them in stock.

Zback · 2025-01-07T17:14:04-0500

My first choice would have been a 22 creed, but you tossed that option out, so I would say 6 creed. Good factory ammo options.

Thomas Geistman · 2025-01-07T17:20:00-0500

Question, is this gonna be like a second back up gun or are you replacing your current setup?

***Hambone00*** · 2025-01-07T21:35:41-0500

Thomas Geistman said:
Question, is this gonna be like a second back up gun or are you replacing your current setup?

This is gonna be my only night gun so it will be replacing my current setup.

***Hambone00*** · 2025-01-07T21:39:15-0500

Zback said:
My first choice would have been a 22 creed, but you tossed that option out, so I would say 6 creed. Good factory ammo options.

Ya the 6 creed did have a little better ballistics than the 6.5 Grendel. I think I’ll be plenty happy with the 6.5 g though. Ordered 200 rounds at just little over $1 a round. 22 creed is awesome on paper but I just hate spending that much money on ammo especially when fur isn’t worth anything

***Hambone00*** · 2025-01-07T21:50:40-0500

The gun I bought has a 16” heavy barrel on it. I really didn’t like the heavy barrel part and kind of cringed at the thought of the 16” barrel not getting everything out of the bullet. I went ahead and ordered a 20” BSF carbon fiber barrel that weighs half of the heavy barrel and will definitely help with velocity so I think it’s gonna be money well spent.

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