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Target interpretation help.
- Thread starter kaskin
- Start date
I also took a look at the Redding body die. Seems like i never set the locking ring, which means... I haven't set it up yet.. further meaning, it's all been done with the Lee Neck sizing collet die. All this brass was prepped a long time ago, so, i don't remember every detail.. However, the annealing machine is running as i type. Next up, measuring and trimming then, ... on to the neck sizer only?
Only if you're shooting benchrest -- and even they will full-length size and trim when extraction gets tough.
Just checked my records on this rifle. Headspace @ -.002" is 1.627. All the brass i have ready to load and the ones fired yesterday are at 1.627 - 1.628". When i did bump the shoulder, my notes called for Redding shell holder @ +.010.
Brass seems to be uniform. Removed that variable from the mix.
Brass seems to be uniform. Removed that variable from the mix.
First off, can the Magnetospeed and attachment as they may be a source of the problem. You say 20" SPS but I'm not aware of any 20" barrels other than the Tactical model. What is the diameter of the barrel at the muzzle?
I'm also curious to the vintage of the rifle. What are the first three letters/numbers of the S/N and can you date it per the following link:
RR140xxx. It is indeed the tactical model. 0.865" at the muzzle.
The magneto speed is the only way i have to get speed data.
I can try and run another test without it and see if some of the " questions " go away...?
I'm thinking of making a batch at 44.9 grn at current seating depth. Then, start loading 4 at a time in .003 jumps ok?
yes / no?
The magneto speed is the only way i have to get speed data.
I can try and run another test without it and see if some of the " questions " go away...?
I'm thinking of making a batch at 44.9 grn at current seating depth. Then, start loading 4 at a time in .003 jumps ok?
yes / no?
Yes.
Why is the magnetospeed mounting an issue? I skipped a bullet off my magnetospeed and it hit the target sideways.
Why is the magnetospeed mounting an issue? I skipped a bullet off my magnetospeed and it hit the target sideways.
did a little reading on seating depth adjustments and the consensus is .010 - .020 increments... So, in light of that, I'm going to make 3 sets of rounds (5 ea.) with a jump of .014" between them.
Original: COAL: 2.782" = CBTO: 2.182
The new series will take us out to max SAAMI @ COAL: 2.810"
This should provide some insight? yes / no?
Original: COAL: 2.782" = CBTO: 2.182
The new series will take us out to max SAAMI @ COAL: 2.810"
This should provide some insight? yes / no?
I used to use a lee collet die on my 300winmag but I could feel the difference in seating pressure when seating bullets. I got away from it and my issues went away. I know some have good luck doing it the way you are with the body die lee collet combo, maybe I was just doing it wrong. I went to bushing dies and and now I set neck tension with a mandrel.
I'd ditch the crimp also. No real need for it in your case, unless...
I've had a couple cases like yours, being limited to mag length and a combination of components that I just had to make work. Mostly in ar's. Once I settled on the load, I would use a crimp die and increase the crimp .001-.002" at a time and see what it did. In most cases I would find an acceptable result around .003-.004"
To my surprise, sd usually came down and groups consistently held under 1 moa when they had been in the 1.5-2 moa range.
Try the magnetospeed direct on the barrel. Mine never made any of my rifles shoot bad. May have had a slight poi shift but I never worried about that on load development. I even mounted mine to my suppressor.
I'd ditch the crimp also. No real need for it in your case, unless...
I've had a couple cases like yours, being limited to mag length and a combination of components that I just had to make work. Mostly in ar's. Once I settled on the load, I would use a crimp die and increase the crimp .001-.002" at a time and see what it did. In most cases I would find an acceptable result around .003-.004"
To my surprise, sd usually came down and groups consistently held under 1 moa when they had been in the 1.5-2 moa range.
Try the magnetospeed direct on the barrel. Mine never made any of my rifles shoot bad. May have had a slight poi shift but I never worried about that on load development. I even mounted mine to my suppressor.
I think you'll find your load tweaking seating depth. I probably watched to many F class and benchrest reloading videos, but I do my seating depth test .003-.006" at a time.
If i can't get this recipe figured out, i may purchase a different seating die. Funny you say that about neck tension. My notes say .002-.003- crimp when i made the first rounds.
The magneto speed made the poi shift and open up quite a bit on this rifle... That's what prompted the different mounting style. I'll have to try it again with it on the barrel. Honestly, i've been frustrated with this rifle and finding a good load. Some days it shot great, some days not so much... It occurred to me it may be me, but it doesn't explain how i can shoot other rifles just fine on the same day... Maybe this was Friday afternoon on Monday morning rifle off the line. or maybe the nut behind the trigger... LOL
The magneto speed made the poi shift and open up quite a bit on this rifle... That's what prompted the different mounting style. I'll have to try it again with it on the barrel. Honestly, i've been frustrated with this rifle and finding a good load. Some days it shot great, some days not so much... It occurred to me it may be me, but it doesn't explain how i can shoot other rifles just fine on the same day... Maybe this was Friday afternoon on Monday morning rifle off the line. or maybe the nut behind the trigger... LOL
Go through your bolt. Pull it down and inspect everything. If it has the J lock firing pin assembly toss it and get a complete pin assembly from Gretan.
I read a post here from LRI about going through the fire control on the 700's. In some of his posts he was describing the issues I was having to a T. He uses a 27/64" chucking reamer to make sure there is no interference with the firing pin and bolt body. (In my case there was) Check the fit between the bolt shroud and firing pin also. You don't want any drag there. No coil binding on the spring either. There are some things you can do to the shroud to improve it but it requires a lathe. Cortina precision sells some modified shrouds also.
I say all that because I had a problem 700 of my own. Chased my tail with it off an on for years. Had it rebarreled three times. When the third barrel presented the same issues I started digging in here and on youtube. After sorting the issues out, the same ammo that struggled to consistently shoot .75 moa shot a .3xx. I've gone through the fire control on all my 700's now and it improved every one of them.
I have a MagnetoSpeed v3 that I mount on a carbon fiber rod attached the the hand guard so that I don't have to mount it onto the barrel. One of the things I figured out was that when I mount it according to instruction, the groups were moved up from where they'd be without the MagnetoSpeed being there and that was due to the effects of the shock wave from the bullet acting on the surface of the bayonet. I found I could adjust the bayonet lower than the recommendation to mitigate this effect, but to be sure to get a good consistent reading I had to turn up the sensitivity. I don't know if you can do that with the Sporter, but if you can, you might try that.
I appreciate all the help gents. I didn’t even know this was a thing. Now that I think about it, it makes sense. Time to take that rascal apart and look.
Make sure it's clean and clear inside the body. The bolt heads are soldered on and excess solder can be inside the bolt causing a problem. That was the case on my long action 700. The chucking reamer in a drill fixed it. All my other bolts were good in that regard. One had a J lock assembly, the other had a spring binding on the firing pin.
Disassemble the pin assembly and make sure there is no drag on the spring/pin and the pin should slip through the shroud with no resistance also.
You are getting lost in the weeds here. This is a 308 and it's pretty simple to load for. I have the same rifle although mine is in a B&C Light Tactical stock. The load I gave you is a known load and it works in almost all rifles. As for seating depth you know that the lands are probably a city block away and that is typical of all Remington 308's. Playing with seating depth on this rifle is not going to tighten up that grouping. When things get confusing you need to simplify not complicate the troubleshooting process. You cannot make multiple changes at one time and expect to find what the issue is.
Your second test gave you a node at roughly 44.1 gn. That is near a known node. I gave you one around 43 gn, again a known load and test are about 3% apart which is typical of OCW nodes. Seating depth should be about 2.800". Work with one. That is what your rifle is telling you.
Without the barrel date code it's impossible to know when your rifle was made beyond the fact it is post 2012. At that point it should have been a 10 twist which opens the possibility it may be what we call a Bankruptcy rifle from 2018-2020. They were pulling parts and making rifles, not always with the "correct pieces". Some of those rifles have issues.
I made a comment on the Hornady bullet because I have been working with it. Here is something I did last week. The left target had 3x 168 SMK with IMR 4064 and 2x 168 Hornady Match with VV135 checking POI ver POI. The right is a 5 shot group of the Hornady 168. The center hole is two shots. I have seen others with issues of grouping of this bullet.
I found this:
www.snipershide.com
308 -Varget Load Testing
Need a little help deciphering the target. Not sure which load would be best. This is a 308 Win. Rem 700. I may try and re-shoot 10-12. I was starting to feel the recoil. Don't think it mattered since i focused on trigger break and breathing, but still... The MV and SD is hard to exclude...
www.snipershide.com
I feel like I'm in the weeds with all the info floating in my head.. LOL
I misspoke earlier. The stock on this rifle is a B&C as well. The ruger Amrcn Prec is in a Boyd...
Anyways.. getting back to the load. I don't remember why i never pursued 44.2. At time everything I read and learned was pointing in the OCW, speed and poi correlation. Never really got the recommendation to load it, maybe speed? Can't remember exactly why...??
So.. in light of "old / new" evidence... I do see where those loads were shot with FC brass... Somewhere along the readings, Lapua was regarded as consistent and durable. So, i got a few boxes of those. Since that's a know node.. What should i do now...???
I made some test rounds of 44.9 and varying COAL's... should i hammer them out and reload to something different? How does FC brass compare to Lapua. should i go up or down in charge to compensate for case volume?
I'm glad to see some groupings like the ones i've had... Maybe there's hope for this stick after all. I may get a box of SMK's and see how they shoot.
I misspoke earlier. The stock on this rifle is a B&C as well. The ruger Amrcn Prec is in a Boyd...
Anyways.. getting back to the load. I don't remember why i never pursued 44.2. At time everything I read and learned was pointing in the OCW, speed and poi correlation. Never really got the recommendation to load it, maybe speed? Can't remember exactly why...??
So.. in light of "old / new" evidence... I do see where those loads were shot with FC brass... Somewhere along the readings, Lapua was regarded as consistent and durable. So, i got a few boxes of those. Since that's a know node.. What should i do now...???
I made some test rounds of 44.9 and varying COAL's... should i hammer them out and reload to something different? How does FC brass compare to Lapua. should i go up or down in charge to compensate for case volume?
I'm glad to see some groupings like the ones i've had... Maybe there's hope for this stick after all. I may get a box of SMK's and see how they shoot.
Case volumes for FC brass is virtually the same as Lapua's. For example. . .
4 different lots of FC's:
55.5 grs H20
55.8
55.7
55.5
4 different lots of Lapua's:
55.4 gr H2O
55.7
55.6
55.9
It's best to measure you the particular brass you have to see what the average case volumes are (measuring at least 10 to get an average).
The brass volume issue in 308 was primarily created when Winchester was chosen to manufacture the ammunition for Palma competition years ago. They went with what is termed a ballon head to increase the capacity of the case. In terms of capacity it added about 2 to 3 gn of water capacity over the other brands of cases. By weight Win brass weighs 155-165 gn and the others are in the 170-185 range. Always remember that how you measure the volume of different cases they must be on the same basis. That is FLS'ed or fired or whatever.
One of the things about the OCW is that you a looking for a constant load that isn't sensitive to minor changes in brass volume or lot changes in powder, primer or bullet. The nodes are typically at least 0.4 gn wide in 308W but do tend to get smaller at the higher load. The test was developed with the idea of not needing a chronograph. Choronograph data can be very misleading especially when you get to looking at standard deviation with small sample sizes. I'm not going to expand on that here but you can research at your leisure. ES is often more informative as a negative indicator. However, pinning differences in either directly to differences in charge weight may be in error. Brass preparation consistency is much more important. If you haven't read up on the system here is the link to Dan Newberry's site:
About the Magnetospeed, attached to the stock. Anything attached to the stock affects the vibrational frequency of the rifle and hence the direction the barrel is pointing when the bullet leaves the muzzle. The affect of the stock is not as significant as the barrel but still has an affect.
Here is some case data from about 10 years ago for reference. The Black Hills brass was Olin/Winchester and we believed that the Hornady was also that at the time but could not verify.
One of the things about the OCW is that you a looking for a constant load that isn't sensitive to minor changes in brass volume or lot changes in powder, primer or bullet. The nodes are typically at least 0.4 gn wide in 308W but do tend to get smaller at the higher load. The test was developed with the idea of not needing a chronograph. Choronograph data can be very misleading especially when you get to looking at standard deviation with small sample sizes. I'm not going to expand on that here but you can research at your leisure. ES is often more informative as a negative indicator. However, pinning differences in either directly to differences in charge weight may be in error. Brass preparation consistency is much more important. If you haven't read up on the system here is the link to Dan Newberry's site:
About the Magnetospeed, attached to the stock. Anything attached to the stock affects the vibrational frequency of the rifle and hence the direction the barrel is pointing when the bullet leaves the muzzle. The affect of the stock is not as significant as the barrel but still has an affect.
Here is some case data from about 10 years ago for reference. The Black Hills brass was Olin/Winchester and we believed that the Hornady was also that at the time but could not verify.
Just FYI: For anyone looking at this chart for "Federal GM" and "Not GM", according to the person I talked to at Federal, just a few years ago, when I called and asked what the difference was in their process, he advised that there is no difference in the cases as they all come off the same production line and there's no sorting to get cases that are more uniform than others. The difference you see in this chart is simply the variation one will see in production from one lot to another.
I have FC 308 that weighs 173 grains and 181 and everywhere in between. Back in the 90’s it weighed around 165grs. Lapua used to weigh 168-171 back in the day, but now is heavier. Hornady had 155gr cases early on and some I have weigh 187grs. It is important to make sure you and your brass are on the same page. Don’t assume case volume. I’m not saying water check every case, but don’t mix lots and weigh a few cases from a new lot before loading them.
What we found about the FGMM was the loaded rounds within a box of 20 would not vary by more than a grain. I’ve verified that this also seemed to be true of the cases themselves.
Here some data I've collected for the Federal brass that I've used (those designated with FGMM were from factory boxes of 20, the rest were once fired range brass some of which were also FGMM):
This is great information. Part of the reason I love this forum... There would be a very slim chance, if any, of me finding this out on my own...
So, i'll make a few test rounds at 44.2 gr. Seems that FC and Lapua are close together in volume capacity.
Here's another question, I had already made 25 round with 44.9 and varying COAL's...
Would it be ok to "gravity hammer" those rounds out and use those bullets for testing, or, use new bullets and toss the "pulled" ones on the use later pile?
So, i'll make a few test rounds at 44.2 gr. Seems that FC and Lapua are close together in volume capacity.
Here's another question, I had already made 25 round with 44.9 and varying COAL's...
Would it be ok to "gravity hammer" those rounds out and use those bullets for testing, or, use new bullets and toss the "pulled" ones on the use later pile?
We are supposed to get some weather this weekend, and blistering cold... Not exactly range inviting conditions... but, maybe sunday i can muster the courage to run the tests...
For the time being, this is the plan:
Lapua Brass, 168 grn Hdy BTHP
5 Rds @ 44.2 gr 2.810 to warm up the rifle
5 Rds. 44.0 @ 2.810
This is a hunting load, and after looking at records, it resembles close pattern to the HDY's we've been talking about.... So, if we make a trip the range might as well make it count???
Lapua Brass, 168 grn Nosler BT
Do i need to change anything here?
For the time being, this is the plan:
Lapua Brass, 168 grn Hdy BTHP
5 Rds @ 44.2 gr 2.810 to warm up the rifle
- 5 Rds @ 44.2 gr COAL 2.815
- 5 Rds @ 44.2 gr COAL 2.810
- 5 Rds @ 44.2 gr COAL 2.805
- 5 Rds @ 44.2 gr COAL 2.800
5 Rds. 44.0 @ 2.810
This is a hunting load, and after looking at records, it resembles close pattern to the HDY's we've been talking about.... So, if we make a trip the range might as well make it count???
Lapua Brass, 168 grn Nosler BT
- 5 Rds @ 44.2 gr COAL 2.810
- 5 Rds @ 44.0 gr COAL 2.810
- 5 Rds @ 43.8 gr COAL 2.810
Do i need to change anything here?
I don't know man. I see powder changes at 1% being a bit more worth your time. .1gr isn't going to make squat of a difference, and I've screwed around with all sorts of small data points for a couple decades now. Powder use to velocity is much more linear than some think. .1gr is going to get you about 6FPS difference...hardly enough to get you "out of one node and into another". I hate the term "node" by the way, it is way overused.
I also think that .005 increments in seating depth is for when you are tying to take a serious target load and wring everything out of it. The chances that it changes a .75 MOA load to a .25 MOA load are just not realistic IMO. This is especially true if you are measuring COAL and not CBTO, because the inconsistency of the BTHP tips are going to throw you all over the place.
I see that you've kind of been going all over the place. The input above about changing the firing pin assembly and spring to a Gre-Tan is good. Yours has a little snake to it, and I'd be willing to bet that you're dragging on the inside of the bolt body just a little, and milliseconds means accuracy.
*****
However, to each their own. If you have loaded up that ammo already, then go for it. Take whatever shoots well though, and shoot it again at least twice. You might be surprised to get different results.
*****
I use the 165gr Nosler BT over 43gr Varget in one of my FN SPRs. It hammers, and I've never had to shoot a deer twice with it. I tried at 44gr Varget too, and it opened up to about 1 MOA. Be prepared for little to no blood trail and very minimal pass-through. That's not a bad thing, if you hit lungs the deer will be laying within 50 yards of where you shot it.
I appreciate the input... I feel like I'm down in the weeds at times thinking about this whole topic... The fact that I'm an analytical guy probably doesn't help.
My reasoning for .1 increments was that if the load did ok before, with different brass, maybe it should do ok, somewhere close to that... So... .1 made sense to me.
However, I don't have as much experience as others, so, I'm happy to learns from others bought lessons.
About the Nosler BT. I don't really hunt, more of a target shooter, but, in the event i do go, i needed a bullet that would do the job... Honestly, as long as it prints good on paper, I'm good with it. Most of the hunting where I'm at is done <150 yds... perfect for the 30-30...
Took the rounds apart last night, but, haven't loaded new ones yet. I loke using CBTO for measurement as well... and that's what i will use when i load it... I do know that COAL will vary, not a biggie... some folks wanted that number rather than my rifles specific.
New test rounds: Version... x (lost count.. LOL)
All @ 2.810 COAL
5 rounds 44.5 gr
10 rounds: 44.2 gr
5 rounds: 43.9 gr
My reasoning for .1 increments was that if the load did ok before, with different brass, maybe it should do ok, somewhere close to that... So... .1 made sense to me.
However, I don't have as much experience as others, so, I'm happy to learns from others bought lessons.
About the Nosler BT. I don't really hunt, more of a target shooter, but, in the event i do go, i needed a bullet that would do the job... Honestly, as long as it prints good on paper, I'm good with it. Most of the hunting where I'm at is done <150 yds... perfect for the 30-30...
Took the rounds apart last night, but, haven't loaded new ones yet. I loke using CBTO for measurement as well... and that's what i will use when i load it... I do know that COAL will vary, not a biggie... some folks wanted that number rather than my rifles specific.
New test rounds: Version... x (lost count.. LOL)
All @ 2.810 COAL
5 rounds 44.5 gr
10 rounds: 44.2 gr
5 rounds: 43.9 gr
Oh Heck, you're right.
Disregard -- I was thinking of WST (my favorite powder for .45 Automatic).
Varget (also known as Australian Defense Industries 2208) is known for temperature stability.
Early onset memory loss.
