Where Do We Go From Here?

#401
…I guess it couldn’t be a spring pushing up the first round as the bolt would smack into it at the second shot.

But you get the drift. Instead of coming at it with more precisely controlling the mag height, you largely ignore mag height and get the first round in there too high…but in a flexible, tolerant sort of way.

Let the receiver set the height, and somehow whatever set the first round’s height gets out of the way after the first shot. Or it never was in the way in the first place. It only has to work for the first shot, as the later shots are linked.

Edit: I guess you could reduce the complexity a lot by making user place that first round in the correct spot. But again, dreamin’ 🛌
 
#402
carbonbased said:
I’m not explaining my half-cocked idea very well lol. Pun intended.

So, as I understand it, one problem we have with our bolt actions is the variation in how magazines fit in the magwell in relation to the bolt.

My stupid idea is instead of having manufactures pre-package ammo loosely, it would be cool if you could buy it linked together in different amounts.

I’m not saying it would only come in five round links. I’m saying, say, 223 could come in three round links AND five wrong links AND 10 and 20 and 30 etc. The consumer would have a choice.

So if I have an AR, I buy the 30 round links. I go home and take this science-fiction 30 round magazine and just drop the already-linked together 30 rounds into the magazine. I then load this crazy magazine into my gun and some special mechanism places it into the right spot so the bolt can pick it up. I don’t have to lay the first round in a certain spot.

I’m definitely not suggesting that we load links ourselves. I would hate that more than loading magazines.

Maybe when I load the magazine there’s a special follower that I click the first round into. And since that wouldn’t solve the variation in ammo-height-to-bolt, maybe the spring in these magazines is set purposely too high. Way too high. Something in the gun stops how high the ammo goes and that’s how you control ammo height variation.

I know there will be problems about where the link material goes after the shot etc. etc. I’m just talking out of my ass lol.
Click to expand...
Yes, one problem is the magazine to DBM fit, but if I published a list that relates to why the rimfire bolt action has to be systemized, you'd likely be amazed at how long that list would be.

This isn't actually a stupid idea, but the issue we run into is, the ammo business has historically operated on very thin margins. So, let's say one were to get past the aspects of technical feasibility, development, etc., and this whole thing came together as a functional and reliable way to achieve what @obx22 kicked off here, the end result would be the participation of the ammo companies (having been down this road numerous times).

MB
 
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#404
carbonbased said:
…I guess it couldn’t be a spring pushing up the first round as the bolt would smack into it at the second shot.

But you get the drift. Instead of coming at it with more precisely controlling the mag height, you largely ignore mag height and get the first round in there too high…but in a flexible, tolerant sort of way.

Let the receiver set the height, and somehow whatever set the first round’s height gets out of the way after the first shot. Or it never was in the way in the first place. It only has to work for the first shot, as the later shots are linked.

Edit: I guess you could reduce the complexity a lot by making user place that first round in the correct spot. But again, dreamin’ 🛌
Click to expand...
eureka.png


I'll let the pros figure out the details, but I think I've solved it. :D
 
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#405
carbonbased said:
But you get the drift. Instead of coming at it with more precisely controlling the mag height, you largely ignore mag height and get the first round in there too high…but in a flexible, tolerant sort of way.

Let the receiver set the height, and somehow whatever set the first round’s height gets out of the way after the first shot. Or it never was in the way in the first place. It only has to work for the first shot, as the later shots are linked.
Click to expand...
You know, if you substitute “clip” for “linked rounds”, did I just sorta describe a bottom-loading M1 Garand?? lololol
 
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#409
Pomyluy said:
View attachment 8367074

I'll let the pros figure out the details, but I think I've solved it. :D
Click to expand...
You magnificent bastard. I equally love and hate you at thr same time.

Variation in rem700 footprints. Seperate lug or integral ? What thickness of lug ? Does it have a trigger hanger or not ? What about a side bolt release ?. Etc.. all matters.
 
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#410
RAVAGE88 said:
Something like that, but what's pictured won't work well, as it's fixed and the issue of variation still exists. I designed a spring loaded piston back in 2009 as part of my DBM and I believe the machined feature that accepts the piston is still part of the Vudoo DBM. However, at Vudoo, the feature was a convenient way to hang the DBM for Cerakote.

MB
Click to expand...
Firstly, glad to see this thread pop back up.
Still eagerly awaiting more info from you when the time is right.


Ok I have a suggestion that may or may not be useful with this,
I think OBX22 has an idea that is not too far from something that will work well.

My 10c would be to make a magwell that bolts to the receiver with the mag release attached to it that fits neatly through an AICS bottom metal,
Eliminating shimming, adjustable catches & to some degree, Organic component failure/user error.

The magazine would obviously have to be smaller than a standard ACIS in the area that goes into the magwell.
Address the possibility for rimlock while your at it.

Think of it as a possibly CZish inspired AICS bottom metal compatible system that is more user friendly/idiot resistant.

Might have to go downstairs & spend some time on the mill.

Cheers
Drew
 
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#411
Pomyluy said:
View attachment 8367074

I'll let the pros figure out the details, but I think I've solved it. :D
Click to expand...
Again, while you joking.
If the 22lr component of the mag slid in the AICS portion with a spring under it, it would be able to sit against the action when inserted.

@RAVAGE88 if you use either of these throw me discount or something please.:)
 
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#416
carbonbased said:
Regarding magazines and more consistent loading of the cartridge into the chamber: I’m pretty sure that most designs under the sun of already been attempted. And I’m sure @RAVAGE88 knows about most of them and has invented a bunch of other new ones.

Ok, so as a non-engineer, with the above in mind, here is just a fun idea. It’s not going to solve the above problem.

What if we could get ammo that was linked like machine gun ammo? Let’s say it was in sold in lengths of three, five, ten, whatever. We could just pull out a length and put it in the magazine. Some sort of mechanical magic would feed the round up without us having to manually place the first round in the bolt’s path (like in a belt-fed machine gun).

Maybe I’m just getting tired of loading magazines lol. A man can dream can’t he?

Edit: positive my idea will not work. Someone’s gonna point that out anyway. Think of it as expressing the desire, not solving the problem.
Click to expand...
I was reading through this thread, started thinking about belt fed rimfire… and then saw this comment. Weird. I guess maybe just because there aren’t that many variations to getting cartridges into chambers… belts, mags, single feed, clips and/or internal mags, rotary feed/drums…
 
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#419
bnanaphone said:
This thread/topic seems to have died, sadly. Any updates? I tried checking out Angled Spade's website without much success.... (Hyperlink here).

I hope things are still moving forward.
Click to expand...
The website works for me through your link. I don’t see anything new on the rimfire or rifle front 👎🏻. And, for those who value what Mike @RAVAGE88 thinks up and creates, there’s nothing about him in the “about us” blurb any longer. Hopefully he still has something in the works even if it’s not through Angled Spade!
 
#421
brianf said:
I think the “rim fire” crazy is over.

There are so many available now and all of them are still limited by the ammo

Guys have been trying fast twist, solids and everything else but it keeps coming back to elay or lapua match ammo and a slugged barrel.
Click to expand...
It’s not even remotely over. Check out how many prs22 matches there were last season compared to this one.
 
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#423
brianf said:
I think the “rim fire” crazy is over.

There are so many available now and all of them are still limited by the ammo

Guys have been trying fast twist, solids and everything else but it keeps coming back to elay or lapua match ammo and a slugged barrel.
Click to expand...

Agreed!

PCP air rifles are the next step IMHO. Why I believe this is the SD can be made super low which can eliminate some vertical at longer distances for subsonic velocities. Altaros has gotten SD down into a incredible low at times.

I custom swage my own edit/42gr slugs with a G1 BC of .142 for my Thomas HPX. The cost of a 25 pound spool of pure lead wire to make 4400 slugs was $160 when I bought them. Each slug is about exactly like all the rest. When I get bored I'll go out to the shop and make 75-150 of them. I stock up more slugs in the winter so when summer comes I have a supply. A few weeks ago I hit a 1" spinner 9 times in a row at 100Y with it and it was kinda windy out. I haven't hit that spinner as many times in a row with my expensive 22rf.

Mike N of Thomas Airguns has created a rifle using his swaged slugs that is almost competitive(very very close) with the best rimfire benchrest rifles money can buy.

The 25 cal 60gr Altaros slugs have a G1 BC of .245!!! These are pure lead lathe turned and very consistent also. Kind of expensive though. Last Sunday I shot one 5 shot group on a rock face that was 2.75" at 240Y with my Vulcan 3. Often I'll get high match score in a comp called UFT with this gun/slug combo and there are a few nice 22rf's there competing. It's just hard to overcome such a high BC in wind for the other guys.

And this stuff is pretty much in it's infancy so in which I think there's lots of improvement to be done. There are very few stoutly made airguns and what I mean by that is Vudoo quality. Most airguns are frail in comparison.

I have my own compressor so I can fill tanks for the rest of my life. Mine is light commercial grade and would likely last a million projectiles worth of air before a rebuild.


I've mentioned in this thread to Mike about "very small centerfire cartridges" for precision and less wind drift compared to 22rf. With reloading the SD can be reduced greatly and good components already exist. It's fairly easy hitting a 1' plate at 500Y with my 5mmFBI.


I still love my 22rf's but I don't expect them to be more than they are. Also got tired of buying the more expensive ammo then lot testing or getting the gun to a testing facility.
 
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#426
steve123 said:
There are very few stoutly made airguns and what I mean by that is Vudoo quality. Most airguns are frail in comparison.
Click to expand...
Ain't that the truth. The nicest Weihrauchs I've ever owned weren't nearly as well-made or sturdy as a basic CZ 457, which is by no means an overbuilt rimfire. I'd love a spring piston airgun built as well as a typical $400-500 rimfire, but I haven't found one yet.
 
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#428
steve123 said:
Agreed!

PCP air rifles are the next step IMHO. Why I believe this is the SD can be made super low which can eliminate some vertical at longer distances for subsonic velocities. Altaros has gotten SD down into a incredible low at times.

I custom swage my own 142gr slugs with a G1 BC of .142 for my Thomas HPX. The cost of a 25 pound spool of pure lead wire to make 4400 slugs was $160 when I bought them. Each slug is about exactly like all the rest. When I get bored I'll go out to the shop and make 75-150 of them. I stock up more slugs in the winter so when summer comes I have a supply. A few weeks ago I hit a 1" spinner 9 times in a row at 100Y with it and it was kinda windy out. I haven't hit that spinner as many times in a row with my expensive 22rf.

Mike N of Thomas Airguns has created a rifle using his swaged slugs that is almost competitive(very very close) with the best rimfire benchrest rifles money can buy.

The 25 cal 60gr Altaros slugs have a G1 BC of .245!!! These are lathe turned and very consistent also. Kind of expensive though. Last Sunday I shot one 5 shot group on a rock face that was 2.75" at 240Y with my Vulcan 3. Often I'll get high match score in a comp called UFT with this gun/slug combo and there are a few nice 22rf's there competing. It's just hard to overcome such a high BC in wind for the other guys.

And this stuff is pretty much in it's infancy so in which I think there's lots of improvement to be done. There are very few stoutly made airguns and what I mean by that is Vudoo quality. Most airguns are frail in comparison.

I have my own compressor so I can fill tanks for the rest of my life. Mine is light commercial grade and would likely last a million projectiles worth of air before a rebuild.


I've mentioned in this thread to Mike about "very small centerfire cartridges" for precision and less wind drift compared to 22rf. With reloading the SD can be reduced greatly and good components already exist. It's fairly easy hitting a 1' plate at 500Y with my 5mmFBI.


I still love my 22rf's but I don't expect them to be more than they are. Also got tired of buying the more expensive ammo then lot testing or getting the gun to a testing facility.
Click to expand...
100% once 22rf become “hand loads”, then it’s a entirety different story.

The equipment is already more constant and higher quality than the ammo by several generations.
 
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#431
darth_ritis said:
Now that Vudoo is telling us lefties to fuck off, I'm even more curious what @RAVAGE88 has been working on and why he went silent. Hope all is well.
Click to expand...
They will still make them but just in batches of pre orders, I have done a lot of barreled actions and less that 10 lefties in the last 3 years. It's a numbers game..

BTW how did I miss this thread, With the consistent low/mid .2s we have been getting with 1.250 13 twist barrels I am setting a goal to get a rimfire repeater in the high teens (bench rest territory). It will be interesting to see what new hardware can produce.
 
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#432
This was posted at the beginning of this thread over two years ago, "The project is close enough that I can post this thread and feel good about having a way to keep you guys informed". Last contact was in March...I was holding my breath for the big reveal, but then I passed out. Agree, hope all is well with him, but have given up hope.
 
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#434
Quick1 said:
This was posted at the beginning of this thread over two years ago, "The project is close enough that I can post this thread and feel good about having a way to keep you guys informed". Last contact was in March...I was holding my breath for the big reveal, but then I passed out. Agree, hope all is well with him, but have given up hope.
Click to expand...
From what I know it’s over

Project wasn’t nearly as close as it seemed and the parties parted ways

Just regular business “stuff”
 
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#436
David Lott said:
They will still make them but just in batches of pre orders, I have done a lot of barreled actions and less that 10 lefties in the last 3 years. It's a numbers game..

BTW how did I miss this thread, With the consistent low/mid .2s we have been getting with 1.250 13 twist barrels I am setting a goal to get a rimfire repeater in the high teens (bench rest territory). It will be interesting to see what new hardware can produce.
Click to expand...
David, when you mention "in the 0.2s", is that at 50 yards?
Thanks!
 
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#438
steve123 said:
Id still like to see you make a mini centerfire action.

I use a CZ 527 action for my 5mmFBI(similar to 20 Vartarg) which is a bit long for the 221 Fireball case and I can only get 3 rounds to feed reliably.

Would love 12 rounds out of a AI mag instead and a Vudoo quality build!

20 cal is the sweet spot!
This class of cartridge is a varmint hunters best friend because it gets super long barrel life, it takes a ton of shots before the barrel gets hot, has very low recoil, and doesn't hardly disturb the sight picture, its cheap to shoot as well at 18.8 grains of H4198.
If that wasn't enough it has 22-250 ballistics with the 32 grainers/3750 fps out of a 21" barrel. It seems nearly as precise as a 6mmPPC and is quite easy to hit 2 moa steel at 500 yards in normal winds.

A slightly shorter version of this cartridge would do about that same velocity and be easier to make reduced loads with, for low ES, superior precision compared to a 22rf, and of course much less wind drift.

Create your own line of ammo and you'll have something different nobody else has.
Click to expand...

I don't know who the new owner/s of Vudoo are but I'm bumping up my old suggestion in hope of...............
 
#439
steve123 said:
I don't know who the new owner/s of Vudoo are but I'm bumping up my old suggestion in hope of...............
Click to expand...
I wish CZ had gotten their 527 action to work as smooth as a Winchester Model 70. I suppose it could be massaged to get there if you really know your gunsmithing.

I’ve owned 527’s in 204, 221 Fireball, and 17 Hornet. Currently own only the latter. They’re neat little guns, but a little janky when cycling with ammo. Cycling sans ammo they usually feel good, but still not like a R700 or Tikka pattern.

For a “little-ish” action that feeds/cycles smooth, I’ve settled on a Tikka for non-rimmed centerfire like 204. AFAIK Tikka doesn’t handle rimmed CF like 17 Hornet well.
 
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#443
carbonbased said:
I wish CZ had gotten their 527 action to work as smooth as a Winchester Model 70. I suppose it could be massaged to get there if you really know your gunsmithing.

I’ve owned 527’s in 204, 221 Fireball, and 17 Hornet. Currently own only the latter. They’re neat little guns, but a little janky when cycling with ammo. Cycling sans ammo they usually feel good, but still not like a R700 or Tikka pattern.

For a “little-ish” action that feeds/cycles smooth, I’ve settled on a Tikka for non-rimmed centerfire like 204. AFAIK Tikka doesn’t handle rimmed CF like 17 Hornet well.
Click to expand...
Yeah half the time I'm single feeding for my 527. These are decent little guns for sure.

A neat high quality "mini" custom bolt action repeater is what's missing in the rifle world! It's about the only firearm I can think of that I really want anymore. Part is the novelty, also partly is I like shooting out far for the fun of it, and how useful it would be for the walk around varminting I like to do.

On one calm-ish day I was hitting our 2"x3" steel plate at 1143Y often because the SD is so low in my 5mmFBI. I hadn't tried that before and I was amazed what it was capable of. It would have been a waste of ammo had it not been calm but so much fun to do weird stuff sometimes.
 
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#444
steve123 said:
Yeah half the time I'm single feeding for my 527. These are decent little guns for sure.

A neat high quality "mini" custom bolt action repeater is what's missing in the rifle world! It's about the only firearm I can think of that I really want anymore. Part is the novelty, also partly is I like shooting out far for the fun of it, and how useful it would be for the walk around varminting I like to do.

On one calm-ish day I was hitting our 2"x3" steel plate at 1143Y often because the SD is so low in my 5mmFBI. I hadn't tried that before and I was amazed what it was capable of. It would have been a waste of ammo had it not been calm but so much fun to do weird stuff sometimes.
Click to expand...
I’ve been wishing something similar that bridges the gap between the .22Hornet class of cartridges, and .22Mag. An appropriate strength action that is chambered in .22TCM and 5.7/28 with quality stock options would be an awesome multipurpose rifle!
 
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