Where Do We Go From Here?

[carbonbased]

…I guess it couldn’t be a spring pushing up the first round as the bolt would smack into it at the second shot.

But you get the drift. Instead of coming at it with more precisely controlling the mag height, you largely ignore mag height and get the first round in there too high…but in a flexible, tolerant sort of way.

Let the receiver set the height, and somehow whatever set the first round’s height gets out of the way after the first shot. Or it never was in the way in the first place. It only has to work for the first shot, as the later shots are linked.

Edit: I guess you could reduce the complexity a lot by making user place that first round in the correct spot. But again, dreamin’

 

[RAVAGE88]

I’m not explaining my half-cocked idea very well lol. Pun intended.

So, as I understand it, one problem we have with our bolt actions is the variation in how magazines fit in the magwell in relation to the bolt.

My stupid idea is instead of having manufactures pre-package ammo loosely, it would be cool if you could buy it linked together in different amounts.

I’m not saying it would only come in five round links. I’m saying, say, 223 could come in three round links AND five wrong links AND 10 and 20 and 30 etc. The consumer would have a choice.

So if I have an AR, I buy the 30 round links. I go home and take this science-fiction 30 round magazine and just drop the already-linked together 30 rounds into the magazine. I then load this crazy magazine into my gun and some special mechanism places it into the right spot so the bolt can pick it up. I don’t have to lay the first round in a certain spot.

I’m definitely not suggesting that we load links ourselves. I would hate that more than loading magazines.

Maybe when I load the magazine there’s a special follower that I click the first round into. And since that wouldn’t solve the variation in ammo-height-to-bolt, maybe the spring in these magazines is set purposely too high. Way too high. Something in the gun stops how high the ammo goes and that’s how you control ammo height variation.

I know there will be problems about where the link material goes after the shot etc. etc. I’m just talking out of my ass lol.

Yes, one problem is the magazine to DBM fit, but if I published a list that relates to why the rimfire bolt action has to be systemized, you'd likely be amazed at how long that list would be.

This isn't actually a stupid idea, but the issue we run into is, the ammo business has historically operated on very thin margins. So, let's say one were to get past the aspects of technical feasibility, development, etc., and this whole thing came together as a functional and reliable way to achieve what @obx22 kicked off here, the end result would be the participation of the ammo companies (having been down this road numerous times).

MB

 

[carbonbased]

This isn't actually a stupid idea

By god man, don’t inflate my head! Aneurysm incoming!

 

[Pomyluy]

…I guess it couldn’t be a spring pushing up the first round as the bolt would smack into it at the second shot.

But you get the drift. Instead of coming at it with more precisely controlling the mag height, you largely ignore mag height and get the first round in there too high…but in a flexible, tolerant sort of way.

Let the receiver set the height, and somehow whatever set the first round’s height gets out of the way after the first shot. Or it never was in the way in the first place. It only has to work for the first shot, as the later shots are linked.

Edit: I guess you could reduce the complexity a lot by making user place that first round in the correct spot. But again, dreamin’

I'll let the pros figure out the details, but I think I've solved it.

 

[carbonbased]

But you get the drift. Instead of coming at it with more precisely controlling the mag height, you largely ignore mag height and get the first round in there too high…but in a flexible, tolerant sort of way.

Let the receiver set the height, and somehow whatever set the first round’s height gets out of the way after the first shot. Or it never was in the way in the first place. It only has to work for the first shot, as the later shots are linked.

You know, if you substitute “clip” for “linked rounds”, did I just sorta describe a bottom-loading M1 Garand?? lololol

 

[obx22]

You know, if you substitute “clip” for “linked rounds”, did I just sorta describe a bottom-loading M1 Garand?? lololol

Beat me to it!

 

[RAVAGE88]

You know, if you substitute “clip” for “linked rounds”, did I just sorta describe a bottom-loading M1 Garand?? lololol

I believe you did and should name it, "Stranger Things."

MB

 

[carbonbased]

I believe you did

What’s old is new, great minds think alike, and, uh, I am the reincarnation of the twin spirits of Jean Cantius Garand and John Moses Browning!

Off to patent the “Stranger Things”!!!

Thx for having some fun, guys.

 

[iceng]

View attachment 8367074

I'll let the pros figure out the details, but I think I've solved it.

You magnificent bastard. I equally love and hate you at thr same time.

Variation in rem700 footprints. Seperate lug or integral ? What thickness of lug ? Does it have a trigger hanger or not ? What about a side bolt release ?. Etc.. all matters.

 

[Drew M]

Something like that, but what's pictured won't work well, as it's fixed and the issue of variation still exists. I designed a spring loaded piston back in 2009 as part of my DBM and I believe the machined feature that accepts the piston is still part of the Vudoo DBM. However, at Vudoo, the feature was a convenient way to hang the DBM for Cerakote.

MB

Firstly, glad to see this thread pop back up.
Still eagerly awaiting more info from you when the time is right.


Ok I have a suggestion that may or may not be useful with this,
I think OBX22 has an idea that is not too far from something that will work well.

My 10c would be to make a magwell that bolts to the receiver with the mag release attached to it that fits neatly through an AICS bottom metal,
Eliminating shimming, adjustable catches & to some degree, Organic component failure/user error.

The magazine would obviously have to be smaller than a standard ACIS in the area that goes into the magwell.
Address the possibility for rimlock while your at it.

Think of it as a possibly CZish inspired AICS bottom metal compatible system that is more user friendly/idiot resistant.

Might have to go downstairs & spend some time on the mill.

Cheers
Drew

 

[Drew M]

View attachment 8367074

I'll let the pros figure out the details, but I think I've solved it.

Again, while you joking.
If the 22lr component of the mag slid in the AICS portion with a spring under it, it would be able to sit against the action when inserted.

@RAVAGE88 if you use either of these throw me discount or something please.

 

[Pomyluy]

Again, while you joking.
If the 22lr component of the mag slid in the AICS portion with a spring under it, it would be able to sit against the action when inserted.

@RAVAGE88 if you use either of these throw me discount or something please.

Yup, I was joking but that's essentially how the M261 conversion mags work:

 

[Trung Si Ma]

@RAVAGE88 - is the firing pin on new bolt going to be in the 6 o’clock position?

 

[iceng]

Make it in the 5:00 position. Just to mess with peoples heads.
Say its for advanced timing to induce spin going down a RH twist barrel.
You want 7:00 oclock for a LH twist barrel.

 

[Drew M]

Make it in the 5:00 position. Just to mess with peoples heads.
Say its for advanced timing to induce spin going down a RH twist barrel.
You want 7:00 oclock for a LH twist barrel.

Very good, but does that mean 11 & 1 for us in the southern hemisphere ?

 

[antecedent]

Regarding magazines and more consistent loading of the cartridge into the chamber: I’m pretty sure that most designs under the sun of already been attempted. And I’m sure @RAVAGE88 knows about most of them and has invented a bunch of other new ones.

Ok, so as a non-engineer, with the above in mind, here is just a fun idea. It’s not going to solve the above problem.

What if we could get ammo that was linked like machine gun ammo? Let’s say it was in sold in lengths of three, five, ten, whatever. We could just pull out a length and put it in the magazine. Some sort of mechanical magic would feed the round up without us having to manually place the first round in the bolt’s path (like in a belt-fed machine gun).

Maybe I’m just getting tired of loading magazines lol. A man can dream can’t he?

Edit: positive my idea will not work. Someone’s gonna point that out anyway. Think of it as expressing the desire, not solving the problem.

I was reading through this thread, started thinking about belt fed rimfire… and then saw this comment. Weird. I guess maybe just because there aren’t that many variations to getting cartridges into chambers… belts, mags, single feed, clips and/or internal mags, rotary feed/drums…

 

[JFricke]

Any updates on this project @RAVAGE88?

 

[bnanaphone]

This thread/topic seems to have died, sadly. Any updates? I tried checking out Angled Spade's website without much success.... (Hyperlink here).

I hope things are still moving forward.

 

[ohiofarmer]

This thread/topic seems to have died, sadly. Any updates? I tried checking out Angled Spade's website without much success.... (Hyperlink here).

I hope things are still moving forward.

The website works for me through your link. I don’t see anything new on the rimfire or rifle front . And, for those who value what Mike @RAVAGE88 thinks up and creates, there’s nothing about him in the “about us” blurb any longer. Hopefully he still has something in the works even if it’s not through Angled Spade!

 

[brianf]

I think the “rim fire” crazy is over.

There are so many available now and all of them are still limited by the ammo

Guys have been trying fast twist, solids and everything else but it keeps coming back to elay or lapua match ammo and a slugged barrel.

 

[Geno C.]

I think the “rim fire” crazy is over.

There are so many available now and all of them are still limited by the ammo

Guys have been trying fast twist, solids and everything else but it keeps coming back to elay or lapua match ammo and a slugged barrel.

It’s not even remotely over. Check out how many prs22 matches there were last season compared to this one.

 

[brianf]

It’s not even remotely over. Check out how many prs22 matches there were last season compared to this one.

Not saying 22isnt popular but the market for new game changing actions is much less likely.

We already have mag fed, r700 pattern so no need for new special accessories anymore.

 

[steve123]

I think the “rim fire” crazy is over.

There are so many available now and all of them are still limited by the ammo

Guys have been trying fast twist, solids and everything else but it keeps coming back to elay or lapua match ammo and a slugged barrel.

Agreed!

PCP air rifles are the next step IMHO. Why I believe this is the SD can be made super low which can eliminate some vertical at longer distances for subsonic velocities. Altaros has gotten SD down into a incredible low at times.

I custom swage my own edit/42gr slugs with a G1 BC of .142 for my Thomas HPX. The cost of a 25 pound spool of pure lead wire to make 4400 slugs was $160 when I bought them. Each slug is about exactly like all the rest. When I get bored I'll go out to the shop and make 75-150 of them. I stock up more slugs in the winter so when summer comes I have a supply. A few weeks ago I hit a 1" spinner 9 times in a row at 100Y with it and it was kinda windy out. I haven't hit that spinner as many times in a row with my expensive 22rf.

Mike N of Thomas Airguns has created a rifle using his swaged slugs that is almost competitive(very very close) with the best rimfire benchrest rifles money can buy.

The 25 cal 60gr Altaros slugs have a G1 BC of .245!!! These are pure lead lathe turned and very consistent also. Kind of expensive though. Last Sunday I shot one 5 shot group on a rock face that was 2.75" at 240Y with my Vulcan 3. Often I'll get high match score in a comp called UFT with this gun/slug combo and there are a few nice 22rf's there competing. It's just hard to overcome such a high BC in wind for the other guys.

And this stuff is pretty much in it's infancy so in which I think there's lots of improvement to be done. There are very few stoutly made airguns and what I mean by that is Vudoo quality. Most airguns are frail in comparison.

I have my own compressor so I can fill tanks for the rest of my life. Mine is light commercial grade and would likely last a million projectiles worth of air before a rebuild.


I've mentioned in this thread to Mike about "very small centerfire cartridges" for precision and less wind drift compared to 22rf. With reloading the SD can be reduced greatly and good components already exist. It's fairly easy hitting a 1' plate at 500Y with my 5mmFBI.


I still love my 22rf's but I don't expect them to be more than they are. Also got tired of buying the more expensive ammo then lot testing or getting the gun to a testing facility.

 

[Geno C.]

I mean, if you want to go expensive and lathe turned for big bc increase, why go bigger diameter and heavier?

 

[steve123]

That's one way to go about it.

 

[Pomyluy]

There are very few stoutly made airguns and what I mean by that is Vudoo quality. Most airguns are frail in comparison.

Ain't that the truth. The nicest Weihrauchs I've ever owned weren't nearly as well-made or sturdy as a basic CZ 457, which is by no means an overbuilt rimfire. I'd love a spring piston airgun built as well as a typical $400-500 rimfire, but I haven't found one yet.

 

[brianf]

I mean, if you want to go expensive and lathe turned for big bc increase, why go bigger diameter and heavier?View attachment 8486804

But like all solids they don’t group as well unless really pushing distance, relativity speaking

And if people want to shoot 600 get a 223 and actually hit what they are trying to

 

[brianf]

Agreed!

PCP air rifles are the next step IMHO. Why I believe this is the SD can be made super low which can eliminate some vertical at longer distances for subsonic velocities. Altaros has gotten SD down into a incredible low at times.

I custom swage my own 142gr slugs with a G1 BC of .142 for my Thomas HPX. The cost of a 25 pound spool of pure lead wire to make 4400 slugs was $160 when I bought them. Each slug is about exactly like all the rest. When I get bored I'll go out to the shop and make 75-150 of them. I stock up more slugs in the winter so when summer comes I have a supply. A few weeks ago I hit a 1" spinner 9 times in a row at 100Y with it and it was kinda windy out. I haven't hit that spinner as many times in a row with my expensive 22rf.

Mike N of Thomas Airguns has created a rifle using his swaged slugs that is almost competitive(very very close) with the best rimfire benchrest rifles money can buy.

The 25 cal 60gr Altaros slugs have a G1 BC of .245!!! These are lathe turned and very consistent also. Kind of expensive though. Last Sunday I shot one 5 shot group on a rock face that was 2.75" at 240Y with my Vulcan 3. Often I'll get high match score in a comp called UFT with this gun/slug combo and there are a few nice 22rf's there competing. It's just hard to overcome such a high BC in wind for the other guys.

And this stuff is pretty much in it's infancy so in which I think there's lots of improvement to be done. There are very few stoutly made airguns and what I mean by that is Vudoo quality. Most airguns are frail in comparison.

I have my own compressor so I can fill tanks for the rest of my life. Mine is light commercial grade and would likely last a million projectiles worth of air before a rebuild.


I've mentioned in this thread to Mike about "very small centerfire cartridges" for precision and less wind drift compared to 22rf. With reloading the SD can be reduced greatly and good components already exist. It's fairly easy hitting a 1' plate at 500Y with my 5mmFBI.


I still love my 22rf's but I don't expect them to be more than they are. Also got tired of buying the more expensive ammo then lot testing or getting the gun to a testing facility.

100% once 22rf become “hand loads”, then it’s a entirety different story.

The equipment is already more constant and higher quality than the ammo by several generations.

 

[JFricke]

seems like there’s still space in the custom rimfire action market but as noted it doesn’t look like angled spade is heading that way based on their newish website. Hopefully whatever Mike was working on doesn’t just disappear.