Subsonic lever gun caliber

elwarpo

elwarpo

Still Learning...
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 15, 2011
853
436
North of Houston, TX
#1
Looking for a lever gun to shoot subsonic and trying to decide between 444 Marlin and 45-70. Mustly shooting suppressed for hunting. I like the 45-70 having a larger bullet, since at 1000fps the only way to increase energy is a heavier bullet. My question is will the 458 bullets reliably expand at 1000 fps since they are designed for rifle velocities? I know the 429 bullets of the 444 are designed for pistols ans will expand nicely atsubsonic speeds.
 
#2
This answer depends some on what you are hunting, but assuming you are not after Bear or something that needs maximum penetration....

If you want a subsonic only rifle, I'd look at the 45 Colt. There aren't a lot of choices for subsonic 45-70 ammo, it is a poor choice because the case capacity is too large for the small powder charges leading to inconsistent velocities. Since your trajectory will be like a rainbow, that matters if you want to shoot past 75 yards. There are some .458 bullets designed to expand at subsonic velocities, but you are talking specialty ammo that will be expensive and difficult to find. If you reload, you may find some bullets shoot but don't feed reliably.

What matters more than bullet weight, is a bullet design that will expand at the velocities you will shoot it at. You will have a much better selection in 45 Colt.

Also, a 45 Colt will let you use a .45 ACP Suppressor whereas the .458 needs a big bore like the SilencerCo Hybrid.
 
#3
Thanks, have the 46 hybrid. Was looking at the 454 casull, since I could load it heavier. I do reload, so not a problem. Hunting will be hogs mostly. Reason for the larger cartridge is for the small amount of time I will be supersonic. Plan on using it for bear defense while camping with full power ammo.
 
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#5
do you reload? if not then for the 45-70 your main options for subsonic are Hornady Sub-X ammo, or specialty stuff from Buffalo and other companies (usually using machined brass bullets like Maker bullets). Not sure what subsonic 444 ammo is out there, haven't ever looked.

If you reload there are plenty of options for subsonic bullets but as Old Man said, what are your expectations, targets, and distances you are thinking of shooting? That might make a big difference.

I picked up a Marlin Dark recently and hoping to have my Primal out of jail shortly, have been developing sub loads (340-500gr) and it's fun and easy to work up a load for the big lever gun, at least compared to getting an AR15 in 300 blackout to work smoothly.

My plan is to use some cast/powder coated loads for plinking (340/405/500gr) and then develop a good load using the Maker 500gr bullets for hunting.
 
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#7
I plan on getting a Marlin in .44mag for whitetail here in Indiana (fucking straight wall bs) and found that Steinel ammo out of Ohio offers a 275gr .44mag subsonic that should be good at <100yds. It's a Maker full copper bullet, might be useful for .444 if that's the route you go.
 
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#9
elwarpo said:
I reload, main reason to go big cartridge is full power defense for bear while camping. Leaning to the R95 in 45-70, can pick them up for under 700 and my friends I shot was nice.
Click to expand...
If you reload, the .444 is the no-brainer option, since you can get .429 pistol bullets like the FTX and XTP that will expand at subsonic velocities, and you don't have to buy expensive specialty solid copper bullets for range plinking.

I have both cartridges, just partial to the .444 Marlin for the nostalgia, and the fact I have, and reload for, .44 Mags, too. The nostalgia being that it's a really cool old school Marlin cartridge, and I still have my dad's old 1960's Marlin Model 444 in .444 Marlin, with the JM stamp barrel.
 
#10
I’ve always thought the 500 S&W would be an ideal choice for a sub lever gun.
The 44 mag or 45 LC would probably be easier. And either would do fine for a bear gun loaded with buffalo bore ammo.
 
#11
264win said:
I’ve always thought the 500 S&W would be an ideal choice for a sub lever gun.
The 44 mag or 45 LC would probably be easier. And either would do fine for a bear gun loaded with buffalo bore ammo.
Click to expand...
I keep thinking a Big Horn Armory 89 White Lightning would be a cool gun to have a can on, but not sure who makes one that would work. My Primal will go up to .46.
 
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#13
45LC is hard to beat. Can be loaded subsonic very easy. Can also be loaded to almost .454C levels for some real energy. Factory loads in both, cheapish brass and bullets. Henry makes factory guns in 45LC and the Ruger Superhawk in .45LC would be a killer pair.
 
#14
elwarpo said:

My question is will the 458 bullets reliably expand at 1000 fps since they are designed for rifle velocities?​

Click to expand...

I shoot 45-70 subs and most won't legitimately expand but the Hornady Sub-X (410 grain .458”) is supposed to be built for expanding at sub velocities.

I don't have any direct experience with expanding subs, just trying to get your thread back on the actual question you asked.
 
#15
I have two 45-70’s and bullets from 350-550. Those 550’s take up a lot of powder space which is good if you want to run them slow. I’m not sure I would want an expanding bullet for hogs though; I think a heavy cast LBT would work better. I am sitting on a cash of Trail Boss which helps for running them as subs, but other powders will work especially for long heavies.
 
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#16
Here’s some 45-70 loads for a Trapdoor from the Hodgdon website, there are powders other than TB that will work:


IMG_2251.png



IMG_2252.png
 
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#19
So for the OP if you really want expanding subsonic 45-70 bullets (or other calibers for that matter), Maker bullets is the place to go if you reload.


Their stuff is all specifically designed to expand at subsonic velocities. 45-70, 300 and 8.6 Blackout, 375 Raptor, SOCOM, Wolverine, Bushmaster, Spectre, Whisper, 6.8, 338, etc. plus just about every other caliber you can think of. Check the reviews. They are making bullets for a lot of other companies if you need factory made ammo and don't reload.

For some interesting load velocity lever gun data, here is a website that has a LOT of info on low power lever gun reloading. I've tried a bunch of their 45-70 loads and while my velocity is a little off (I have a 16" Marlin Dark, with 340-500gr cast bullets and 350gr Berrys) it's pretty close and has gotten me some very good subsonic loads. Should have my Primal out of jail in the next week or two but have some loads to try that are good starting points (mainly using VV 3N37 and 4227 since I have a lot of it). So much more fun making light loads for the lever guns compared to trying to get a DI AR15 300blackout to run well. :)

Lever Gun Performance Studies

Reloading Data for cast bullets, result of lever gun accuracy studies on cartridges: 357 Magnum, 41 Rem Mag, 44 S&W, 44 Russian, 44 Magnum, 444 Marlin, 45-70 Goverment, Pistol Powders, Large Capacity Rifle Cases
www.gmdr.com
 
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#21
elwarpo said:
I know the 429 bullets of the 444 are designed for pistols ans will expand nicely atsubsonic speeds.
Click to expand...
I think the 265 was the bullet designed for the 444 and it wasn't really designed for pistol velocities. I don't think you'll get much expansion from 44 pistol bullets below 900 fps.

IMO better to shoot heavy .458 and shoot like you're handgun hunting, break em down, break the shoulders.
 
#22
Whatever you do, I can tell you 100% that the 452 hornady subX 395gr absolutely expands at subsonic velocity and will kill shit dead. I would suppose that the Hornady .458 SubX bullet does the same.
 
#23
FWIW, a 286 grain RCBS 270-SAA runs 1,050fps over 7.5grn. Unique out of my .45 Colt Henry Carbine.
Around 1.5” for 5 at 50 yards.

I was trying to load something unsuppressed, but “relatively” quiet. It is.

It’s still carrying on around 850fps at 200 yards, though there’s a bit over 4’ of drop from a 75 yard zero.

Haven’t whacked any pigs with it just yet, but previous experience with a .45 ACP on trapped pigs indicates it will be very unhealthy.
 
#24
4570 works here, BUT you need to be able to run a long bullet for it to work well. Case is just too big for subs unless you run one of the short 4570 variety... do it if you can...

I've had good luck hunting with a wide flat nose soft cast bullet on deer. Get a reliable half inch plus a little hole in and out every time.

A 500 to 600 cast bullet eats a lot of case volume and does a great job if you can fit it in the action etc. Not ideal, but much better than typical 400 class bullets. The fancy expanding bullets are great for hunting if your gun can fit and stabilize them. They are like a nasty broadhead!

The .452 calibers have the advantage of more common bullets that will expand well at low speed, but if you want heavy heavy .458 offers more even if you're casting. Heavy may not help a ton cause you're gonna get a through and through every time and dump the extra energy in the dirt. I use the heavies to eat up extra case volume in most circumstances, and it ends up simply being more consistent.

.458 can often be swaged to .452 etc, but it's not perfect by any means.
 
#25
I have a 45 colt and a 45-70 ; the 45-70 drops animals in their tracks. I’ve had runners with the 45 colt not saying it won’t work. Both are pretty quiet if you shooting subs out the 45-70. I’m shooting 300g Rex 400,500,700 grain cast. In the 45 colt I’m shooting 300 grain subx ; idk if there is a better expanding bullet out there for it but it’s good for me, accurate out to 100yards
 
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#26
My Bighorn in 500 S&W is a pussycat with 350gn subs. I was going to try 400 and heavier subs, but I was so happy with the 350s that I quit.

With 500gn bullets it should stop anything in its tracks.

Playing with different powders in full power ammo was eye opening. Loaded to the same velocity, some powders had a more recoil and a lot more muzzle flash.

400 gn bullets at 1,600 fps.

Vhit N-110
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#27
Hoser said:
My Bighorn in 500 S&W is a pussycat with 350gn subs. I was going to try 400 and heavier subs, but I was so happy with the 350s that I quit.

With 500gn bullets it should stop anything in its tracks.

Playing with different powders in full power ammo was eye opening. Loaded to the same velocity, some powders had a more recoil and a lot more muzzle flash.

400 gn bullets at 1,600 fps.
Click to expand...
How do you like your Big Horn? Now that I'm playing with the big bore stuff (Marlin Dark with Dead Air Primal), I keep looking at a BHA White Lightning with some black furniture. That with some subsonic loads and a big can sounds like fun.

what can are you running? I looked a while ago but seemed like most were designed for 50BMG and would be overkill but seemed like there was someone that would overbore a 458 can if requested.
 
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