New Trimmer Advice

D

Deltagunner00

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 16, 2011
330
144
42
Central Indiana
#1
Currently: I am now using the LE Wilson trimmer followed up by the RCBS trim center to chamfer and debur. Works fine but just so slow.

Upgrade: Looking at possibly a Giraud or maybe just the Tri Way and a cheap bench grinder from Harbor Freight.

Not looking to shell out the money for the Hendo Gen 3 right now as I don’t think I reload quite enough to justify it.

I probably trim up batches of 200-250 at a time. Sometimes it’s just a quick run through a batch of 100 6BR cases.

Focusing on 6BR right now, but do load for 308, 243, 223 and sometimes Grendel.

Just looking for any advice to swing me one way or another. Been using current setup for a long time and ready to upgrade and be done with it. Not upgrade and wish I would’ve spent more. Buy once, cry once.

Thanks!
 
#2
Deltagunner00 said:
Currently: I am now using the LE Wilson trimmer followed up by the RCBS trim center to chamfer and debur. Works fine but just so slow.

Upgrade: Looking at possibly a Giraud or maybe just the Tri Way and a cheap bench grinder from Harbor Freight.

Not looking to shell out the money for the Hendo Gen 3 right now as I don’t think I reload quite enough to justify it.

I probably trim up batches of 200-250 at a time. Sometimes it’s just a quick run through a batch of 100 6BR cases.

Focusing on 6BR right now, but do load for 308, 243, 223 and sometimes Grendel.

Just looking for any advice to swing me one way or another. Been using current setup for a long time and ready to upgrade and be done with it. Not upgrade and wish I would’ve spent more. Buy once, cry once.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I reload for 2 calibers and I use a Tri-Way for one and the Trim-it II for the other. The Trim-it uses the same cutter and the Tri-way and it much easier to make adjustments.

For 3 or more calibers that you're reloading for, I'd recommend going with the Giraud Power Trimmer, particular when doing 250 cases or so. I doubt very much you'd be sorry for gong this way (like, buy once, cry once). :giggle:
 
  • Like
Reactions: secondofangle2
#11
The guy that makes the Ugly Annealer started making a trimmer that is an improved version of the WFT/Triway. It’s much easier to adjust than the other two.

 
  • Like
Reactions: CK1.0
#12
Simonsza1 said:
What about the world’s finest trimmer 2? Anyone care for them?
Click to expand...
Not particularly. It's basically a 1/4 or 3/8 4 flute end mill in a holder. Works okay, but cuts the end of the case square, so inside chamfering would be an additional step. I think I've got one or two in a box somewhere.
The inside/ outside chamfer is the advantage of the Giraud and Henderson.
 
#13
The Giraud has to hands-down be the most fastest and accurate

There are a couple of issues, however

You will definitely want to buy a cutterhead for each caliber so you don’t have to move the little carbide blade around and set it each time which would be a complete pain in the ass

As mentioned above, you want to put a lock on your shell holder so that the depth is set automatically when you screw it in each time

For most of the shell holders he sells for each caliber, you need a fully sized case, or it won’t fit since it indexes off of the shoulder and part of the body of the case must be inserted also. On almost all of my calibers, the shell won’t fit, unless it has been full length resized.

Some guys have complained about cramping up of their hands and getting sore when doing trimming. A very easy way around. This is to wear a glove, especially a leather one. The additional padding helps as does the improved grip and it stops your hands from getting dirty also.

In this video, the Giraud is 50% faster.

It also does 50 BMG, which is one of the reasons I will be keeping mine

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: kthomas, Deltagunner00, Marine52 and 1 other person
#14
secondofangle2 said:
The Giraud has to hands-down be the most fastest and accurate

There are a couple of issues, however

You will definitely want to buy a cutterhead for each caliber so you don’t have to move the little carbide blade around and set it each time which would be a complete pain in the ass

As mentioned above, you want to put a lock on your shell holder so that the depth is set automatically when you screw it in each time

For most of the shell holders he sells for each caliber, you need a fully sized case, or it won’t fit since it indexes off of the shoulder and part of the body of the case must be inserted also. On almost all of my calibers, the shell won’t fit, unless it has been full length resized.

Some guys have complained about cramping up of their hands and getting sore when doing trimming. A very easy way around. This is to wear a glove, especially a leather one. The additional padding helps as does the improved grip and it stops your hands from getting dirty also.

In this video, the Giraud is 50% faster.

It also does 50 BMG, which is one of the reasons I will be keeping mine

Click to expand...


I second this. I love my Giraud but, as noted, your hand gets worked and if you have arthritis in the thumb joint and wrist as I do it can get annoying after 200 cases. But as noted a glove helps.

The Giraud indexes off the case shoulder which I believe is the way to go. The Henderson is a fine machine but it indexes off the case base. This is not a problem if your sizing die is bumping the shoulders very consistently.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: straightshooter1
#15
The wtf 2 indexes off the shoulder as well I believe. I have cts trimmers for everything I reload except for two calibers I added recently. The cts leaves the mouth square also as kindabity referenced the wtf does. CTs doesn’t seem to be in business anymore which is why I’m thinking wtf for these two new calibers. Buy one and then a few inserts should get me rolling.
 
#16
I have a Henderson, and like it and would buy it again.

I recently discovered my outside deburring bit was bad/dull/who knows, on my case prep station, I adjusted the blades/mechanical stop, on my Henderson trimmer to NOT trim, rather just debur and chamfer, and I was able to hammer through a load of brass quicker than I can on that case prep station I have…. I don’t know if the Henderson is designed for that but it worked great.
 
#17
secondofangle2 said:
The Giraud has to hands-down be the most fastest and accurate
Click to expand...

The video specifically shows that the Giraud is NOT more accurate than the Henderson - all the Henderson-trimmed brass were at +0/-1 thousandths, and the Giraud was less consistent, with one coming in at 4 thousandths off. I've validated the Henderson consistency on 100 cases where the SD on overall length was .000577" - it is exceedingly accurate due to the hard stop method on the Henderson. He mentions this in the video - the amount of force you put on the case on the Giraud changes the trim length. He caveats that the measurement method for the Giraud-trimmed cases is slightly less accurate, but that in itself is an issue. Why wouldn't you measure full length on both?

Because:

The big question is what is more important - indexing off the shoulder like the Giraud, or indexing off full length like the Henderson? Indexing off the shoulder (Giraud) helps ensure the neck length is more consistent. Indexing off the base helps ensure the overall length is more consistent (e.g. - where the case mouth is positioned in at the end of the chamber). Consistent neck length helps ensure your bearing/frictional force holding the bullet in is more consistent, while overall length allows you better trim to chamber length and minimize carbon build up (leads to carbon rings).

At the end of the day, I made the assessment that being, call it, .001" or so more accurate at the shoulder was lost in the massive amount of other variability that enters into the bearing and friction forces that hold the bullet in place. That .001 adds low double-digit basis points of variability, while other factors could add a thousand basis points or more.

On the timing aspect, in the video he says he is essentially brand new with the Henderson and he has 20 years experience using the Giraud. This shows when he fumbles with a few cases with the Henderson (and is really fast with the Giraud). Additionally, he has one case that the neck wasn't expanded on which cost him a couple seconds. I'll give you that the Giraud is faster, but probably more in the 25-35% range, not the 1.5x exhibited in the video.

One last thing to bring up is how does each trimmer impact the seating force? This is arguably the most important aspect.

Here are screen grabs from the video showing the AMP Press plots:

Giraud.png

Henderson.png


Unfortunately, the Y axis units are cut off in the video, but it's clear that the Henderson offers a more consistent seating force. If you just measure the magnitude (in pixels) its 155 for the Henderson vs 178 for the Giraud. That's 15% more consistency over spread for the Henderson.

The other thing, and it's mentioned in the video, is that initial bump that's present on the Giraud cases. This is indicative of something interfering at the very beginning of the seating process, leading me to believe there is something up on the inside chamfer. What is the impact of this? Unknown. But I would prefer not to have that issue.

Overall, for me, I made the assessment that I would rather trim off overall length, and the noise difference and the Henderson hard stop were both factors. The time difference isn't a big issue for me because I seldom trim more than a couple hundred pieces at a time - an extra couple minutes difference there was not enough to make up for the other advantages the Henderson brings.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TheOfficeT-Rex and straightshooter1
#18
Rocketmandb said:
The video specifically shows that the Giraud is NOT more accurate than the Henderson - all the Henderson-trimmed brass were at +0/-1 thousandths, and the Giraud was less consistent, with one coming in at 4 thousandths off. I've validated the Henderson consistency on 100 cases where the SD on overall length was .000577" - it is exceedingly accurate due to the hard stop method on the Henderson. He mentions this in the video - the amount of force you put on the case on the Giraud changes the trim length. He caveats that the measurement method for the Giraud-trimmed cases is slightly less accurate, but that in itself is an issue. Why wouldn't you measure full length on both?

Because:

The big question is what is more important - indexing off the shoulder like the Giraud, or indexing off full length like the Henderson? Indexing off the shoulder (Giraud) helps ensure the neck length is more consistent. Indexing off the base helps ensure the overall length is more consistent (e.g. - where the case mouth is positioned in at the end of the chamber). Consistent neck length helps ensure your bearing/frictional force holding the bullet in is more consistent, while overall length allows you better trim to chamber length and minimize carbon build up (leads to carbon rings).

At the end of the day, I made the assessment that being, call it, .001" or so more accurate at the shoulder was lost in the massive amount of other variability that enters into the bearing and friction forces that hold the bullet in place. That .001 adds low double-digit basis points of variability, while other factors could add a thousand basis points or more.

On the timing aspect, in the video he says he is essentially brand new with the Henderson and he has 20 years experience using the Giraud. This shows when he fumbles with a few cases with the Henderson (and is really fast with the Giraud). Additionally, he has one case that the neck wasn't expanded on which cost him a couple seconds. I'll give you that the Giraud is faster, but probably more in the 25-35% range, not the 1.5x exhibited in the video.

One last thing to bring up is how does each trimmer impact the seating force? This is arguably the most important aspect.

Here are screen grabs from the video showing the AMP Press plots:

View attachment 8368518
View attachment 8368519

Unfortunately, the Y axis units are cut off in the video, but it's clear that the Henderson offers a more consistent seating force. If you just measure the magnitude (in pixels) its 155 for the Henderson vs 178 for the Giraud. That's 15% more consistency over spread for the Henderson.

The other thing, and it's mentioned in the video, is that initial bump that's present on the Giraud cases. This is indicative of something interfering at the very beginning of the seating process, leading me to believe there is something up on the inside chamfer. What is the impact of this? Unknown. But I would prefer not to have that issue.

Overall, for me, I made the assessment that I would rather trim off overall length, and the noise difference and the Henderson hard stop were both factors. The time difference isn't a big issue for me because I seldom trim more than a couple hundred pieces at a time - an extra couple minutes difference there was not enough to make up for the other advantages the Henderson brings.
Click to expand...
That's a good synopsis.

It'd be interesting if that difference in seating resistance was explored more. As mentioned, somethings going on that produces that "initial bump" for the Giraud, like a difference in the chamfer as you elude to, which could be due to a poorly cut cutting blade or who knows what else. Makes me wonder if all the Giraud cutting blades produce this issue.

I like my Giraud for that consistent neck length, which I feel is more important that OAL, as it's relationship to the bearing surface determines when the blowby begins. That blowby effects timing of the pressure spike, which I see as having an definite effect on velocity. Therefore I want that to be as consistent as possible. Does that make a noticeable difference? I don't know. If it does in any way, I doubt it'd be so for only the highest competitive level where .001" can make the difference on paper as to who's won the contest. That's not me, but I like to do all that I can to eliminate, or minimize, as many variables as I can so I don't have an excuse to point to other than my poor shooting mechanics or wind reading. :)
 
#26
Rocketmandb said:
The video specifically shows that the Giraud is NOT more accurate than the Henderson - all the Henderson-trimmed brass were at +0/-1 thousandths, and the Giraud was less consistent, with one coming in at 4 thousandths off. I've validated the Henderson consistency on 100 cases where the SD on overall length was .000577" - it is exceedingly accurate due to the hard stop method on the Henderson. He mentions this in the video - the amount of force you put on the case on the Giraud changes the trim length. He caveats that the measurement method for the Giraud-trimmed cases is slightly less accurate, but that in itself is an issue. Why wouldn't you measure full length on both?

Because:

The big question is what is more important - indexing off the shoulder like the Giraud, or indexing off full length like the Henderson? Indexing off the shoulder (Giraud) helps ensure the neck length is more consistent. Indexing off the base helps ensure the overall length is more consistent (e.g. - where the case mouth is positioned in at the end of the chamber). Consistent neck length helps ensure your bearing/frictional force holding the bullet in is more consistent, while overall length allows you better trim to chamber length and minimize carbon build up (leads to carbon rings).

At the end of the day, I made the assessment that being, call it, .001" or so more accurate at the shoulder was lost in the massive amount of other variability that enters into the bearing and friction forces that hold the bullet in place. That .001 adds low double-digit basis points of variability, while other factors could add a thousand basis points or more.

On the timing aspect, in the video he says he is essentially brand new with the Henderson and he has 20 years experience using the Giraud. This shows when he fumbles with a few cases with the Henderson (and is really fast with the Giraud). Additionally, he has one case that the neck wasn't expanded on which cost him a couple seconds. I'll give you that the Giraud is faster, but probably more in the 25-35% range, not the 1.5x exhibited in the video.

One last thing to bring up is how does each trimmer impact the seating force? This is arguably the most important aspect.

Here are screen grabs from the video showing the AMP Press plots:

View attachment 8368518
View attachment 8368519

Unfortunately, the Y axis units are cut off in the video, but it's clear that the Henderson offers a more consistent seating force. If you just measure the magnitude (in pixels) its 155 for the Henderson vs 178 for the Giraud. That's 15% more consistency over spread for the Henderson.

The other thing, and it's mentioned in the video, is that initial bump that's present on the Giraud cases. This is indicative of something interfering at the very beginning of the seating process, leading me to believe there is something up on the inside chamfer. What is the impact of this? Unknown. But I would prefer not to have that issue.

Overall, for me, I made the assessment that I would rather trim off overall length, and the noise difference and the Henderson hard stop were both factors. The time difference isn't a big issue for me because I seldom trim more than a couple hundred pieces at a time - an extra couple minutes difference there was not enough to make up for the other advantages the Henderson brings.
Click to expand...

With your Henderson, have you noticed the need to burnish/clean the pilots occasionally? From time to time I'll notice that it's scratching the neck. Only once have I seen it really impact the AMP seating graphs significantly. Usually its just some mild variation in the graph. And I haven't tested anything on paper, though I'm assuming it will make no difference.
 
#27
Rocketmandb said:
I've used extensively and have neither of these.
Click to expand...

Same. Most uneven issues I've seen myself or with others is not being careful to make sure the base of the cast is in the collet correctly. Or not allowing it to cut long enough to square the neck. Though I'd think there's some point where if there's enough runout in the neck in reference to the base of case that it could cut uneven.

This is what mine look like when run properly through Henderson. Looks the same around the entire neck if you rotate it.

You can see some of the rings inside the neck I mentioned above though.


Screenshot 2024-03-10 at 3.32.03 PM.png
 
#28
Rio Precision Gunworks said:
With your Henderson, have you noticed the need to burnish/clean the pilots occasionally? From time to time I'll notice that it's scratching the neck. Only once have I seen it really impact the AMP seating graphs significantly. Usually its just some mild variation in the graph. And I haven't tested anything on paper, though I'm assuming it will make no difference.
Click to expand...

Do you lube prior to mandrel/trim? I end up doing two applications of moly - once before those two functions, and once after.

EDIT: I didn't answer the question. I have not run into the need to clean the pilots other than to wipe off residual lube after I'm done.

p.s. We need to start a thread to share plots from the AMP Press. Would be beneficial to see what others are getting with similar calibers and how they're getting them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rio Precision Gunworks
#29
Man your inside and outside chamfer is practically making a knife’s edge, interesting. I do not chamfer that aggressively. I do just a touch both inside and out. Obviously both ways work but interesting how sharp an edge you cut to. We all have our ways don’t we!
 
#30
Simonsza1 said:
Man your inside and outside chamfer is practically making a knife’s edge, interesting. I do not chamfer that aggressively. I do just a touch both inside and out. Obviously both ways work but interesting how sharp an edge you cut to. We all have our ways don’t we!
Click to expand...

It's just magnified a ton. You can see the mouth is flat and not a knife edge.

Also, this is the way Henderson sends them if you opt for them to be setup prior to shipping.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Simonsza1 and secondofangle2
#36
I like to use drill mounted trimmers since most cordless drills set on their fastest speed tear through cases in less than “1 Mississippi”, I just chamfer/deburr on a second pass using a Hornady Case Prep Duo.

I use the Frankford Arsenal one and it’s been great, but if I were buying today I’d get the one from Ugly Reloading.

That said, I trim my stuff as infrequently as possible, not every cycle like some. And as far as I can tell, sore fingers just come with the party if you end up having to do large batches.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Maurygold
#37
CK1.0 said:
I like to use drill mounted trimmers since most cordless drills set on their fastest speed tear through cases in less than “1 Mississippi”, I just chamfer/deburr on a second pass using a Hornady Case Prep Duo.

I use the Frankford Arsenal one and it’s been great, but if I were buying today I’d get the one from Ugly Reloading.

That said, I trim my stuff as infrequently as possible, not every cycle like some. And as far as I can tell, sore fingers just come with the party if you end up having to do large batches.
Click to expand...
The ugly trimmer, is that essentially the Lyman trimmer without the drill motor?
 
#38
memilanuk said:
If your fingers start aching, something like this is worth every penny:

kmshooting.com

Case Holder - K+M Precision Shooting Products

Give your hands a break from grasping cases with the all-new Case Holder from K&M. Available for case bodies just over .563"/14.3mm diameter.
kmshooting.com kmshooting.com
Click to expand...
yes it can be hard on the fingers ,which is how i had gotten it so cheep, the previous owner was fighting the springs back pressure . some guys would get the K M holder . it slows thing down a bit does save the tender tender fingers.
 
#39
I mainly got the K&M case holder because of some operations that I was doing where the cutting tool would dig in, and even with gloves it was f'ing miserable to try and grip each and every case tight enough to keep it from spinning. Not saying "I couldn't", just that it sucked a$$ for any quantity of cases >5. Slip the case in a collet, with a much larger diameter knurled grip... and suddenly no problem at all.

Yes, it's slower. It's worth it.
 
#40
memilanuk said:
I mainly got the K&M case holder because of some operations that I was doing where the cutting tool would dig in, and even with gloves it was f'ing miserable to try and grip each and every case tight enough to keep it from spinning. Not saying "I couldn't", just that it sucked a$$ for any quantity of cases >5. Slip the case in a collet, with a much larger diameter knurled grip... and suddenly no problem at all.

Yes, it's slower. It's worth it.
Click to expand...
just wondering ,do you feel any disappointment when you put the brass into the holder insert into the cutter and it does not cut anything ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: memilanuk
#41
Yes, I feel that disappointment

Everyone probably already knows this but a leather glove like a $10 kind made by Wells. Lamont does wonders for the fingers.

Also, are you guys full length your brass before you insert it?
As far as the GIRAUD trimmer inserts go, they are a pretty tight fit, and most of my cases get bound up in there and cause more stress on my fingers unless they have been full length sized, and sometimes even the little section of the neck that the bushing does not resize is enough to get it caught up

So my general practice now is a full length size with a standard, not a bushing dye when it comes time for trimming.

Also, if you’re trimming off a lot of material that stresses your hand a lot more so sometimes decreasing the interval between trim sessions can make things easier
 
#42
misser said:
just wondering ,do you feel any disappointment when you put the brass into the holder insert into the cutter and it does not cut anything ?
Click to expand...
Just a bit 😉

Used to drive me nuckin' futs, actually. I'd fiddle around, trying to get it set so that *every* case came out *exactly* the same. Messed with different pressures, rotating the case in the holder, etc. etc.

Somewhere along the way, I watched an F-class John video where he mentioned he just stuck them in, gave a half turn and moved on. Didn't really care about them all being exactly the same length, as long as they were close, and had a chamfer on the ID.

*That* made some people's head explode. For me... it was oddly cathartic. Almost like permission to just get on with it, and stop fussing with something that didn't matter.

But... I still like having an inside chamfer on the mouth. So I keep a hand chamfer tool close at hand, and if I get a case that clearly didn't grow enough to get trimmed, I'll give it a quick twist with the tool 😉

If I get a *second* case that doesn't get trimmed, I turn the machine off, unplug it, and swab the inside of the pilot to get whatever it is that's holding things up.


secondofangle2 said:
Everyone probably already knows this but a leather glove like a $10 kind made by Wells. Lamont does wonders for the fingers.
Click to expand...
That, or some grippy gloves from the big box store. Even so, sometimes still not enough.


secondofangle2 said:
As far as the GIRAUD trimmer inserts go, they are a pretty tight fit, and most of my cases get bound up in there and cause more stress on my fingers unless they have been full length sized, and sometimes even the little section of the neck that the bushing does not resize is enough to get it caught up
Click to expand...

I've had a very, very few instances where that was the case. I've had more times where the case mouth was burred over (by a dull/damaged cutter) and created a mechanical lock that made it close to impossible to extract the case by hand. No bueno.
 
  • Like
Reactions: secondofangle2
#43
I use a Giraud. I have a love/hate relationship with it.
I love that its fast
I hate that changing calibers is kind of a PITA and I refuse to buy a cutter I can setup for every caliber
I ended up doing this, and just running my Lyman prep station for a quick deburr/chamfer
4tCp7E4.jpg
 
#44
misser said:
The ugly trimmer, is that essentially the Lyman trimmer without the drill motor?
Click to expand...

To me, the Ugly/Derreco trimmer just looks like maybe the highest evolution of the drill-mount trimmer yet...

(I have an Ugly/Derreco PCPS priming tool and have been thoroughly impressed with the dude's stuff.)

FWIW, I'm way past the point of trying to save a nickel and dime here and there with my reloading stuff and would pony up the cash to buy a Giraud/Henderson if I thought I really needed one. But, for me and my workflow, the drill-mount trimmer is enough, as the drill motors are powerful and zip through cases super fast and easy. Using the drill-mount trimmer, I can go so fast that it really doesn't bother me that much to have to go through the cases again with a second pass to chamfer/deburr (probably because I have to do it so infrequently).

I usually only trim my brass once when I put on a new barrel (so every 2500-3000rds), usually taking them back to SAAMI minimum so I don't have to worry about it again for a while. I haven't had an average SD that wasn't in the single-digits in the last ~3 years and all my stuff has shot well under half-moa (~.3" seems to be my average 100-yard group) so I no longer sweat trimming and trim-length too much, YMMV.

But, if you're the type that thinks you'd like to trim every firing/ cycle... by all means, pony up for the Giraud or Henderson if you think it'll work out better for you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

VandelayIndustries
Higher quality trimmers worth it?
Replies
128
Views
5K
MO Fugga
MO Fugga
S
3 way trimmers.........
Replies
13
Views
471
RegionRat
R
HTFSIK
Henderson Trimmer scoring necks
Replies
12
Views
377
Harman117
Harman117
Strbrd22
Help! ‘Trimming’ 1 x fired Lapua brass for the chamfer / deburr on a Henderson.. already under case length
Replies
9
Views
509
Hoser
Hoser
RTTY
Advice for trimming solution
Replies
39
Views
713
RTTY
RTTY
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts