Is it possible to become a really skilled long range shooter with a semi-auto?

Lowlight said:

Yes it’s all trigger control with a semi

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What's the barrel length on this one ? 20in ?
Video said 2800FPS prime ammo, were they using Berger AR 130gr ?

Soldiers and civilians have been doing it since at least 1938 -- with iron sights to 2015 when 4.5 power scopes were authorized (from standing, sitting, and prone).

You can start by taking a clinic and shooting your first service rifle match. Some clubs will loan you everything you need, with coaching, and ammunition. Matches are shot at 200, 300, and 600 yards. A "Triple 3" match is three 20-shot matches fired at 300 yards, a Triple Six is the same at 600. A Palma is shot at 800, 900, and 1,000 yards with an M1, M14, AR15/M16, or AR-10/SR-25.

Winner of the President's Match shoot-off at 600 yards with an M16 and 4.5x scope. The top 100 shooters earn The President's Hundred tab:



Interservice Long-Range Champions (Service Rifle with iron sights at 1,000 yards) at Quantico:



600 yard rapid fire, M16s with iron sights (20 - 40 rounds in 50 seconds). Repeat at 500:

You can, but some might describe it as learning to swim in the deep end. It is easier to get solid on a bolt gun and transition to semi, just like it is easier to start with no recoil and work your way up.

I think it’s easier with a small frame AR-15 shooting a cartridge that you can self-spot, that actually makes a noise and visible splash on-target.

.308s tend to come off-target and disrupt your sight picture quite a bit when shooting positions or with a lighter rifle. I do love the sound of 155-175gr hitting the steel, but I want to be able to maintain sight picture and see where the shot impacts too.

This is really the main reason why I shoot Grendel so much. I have .260 Rem AR-10s, .308 AR-10s, 6.5CM, and of course plenty of 5.56 free-floated AR-15s, but the Grendels get taken out while the others stay home mostly.

5.56 has excellent sight picture/ease of self-spotting, but doesn’t do much when you hit and struggles in the wind. Very pleasant experience on the back-end, not on the TGT-end.

Grendel is the Goldilocks in between them all. Your learning curve shooting a Grendel for LR will be steeper because you get to see what’s happening throughout the process, with very audible results on the TGT and plenty of bullet splash.

"20 rds, in a 20" circle, in 20 seconds at 1000yds"... The Jeff Cooper Challenge.

The Cooper Challenge, was accomplished by AR 15 in 5.56 with special 77 gr bullets many yrs ago.

ANY American in good standing can shoot in the annual National Matches. Enroll in the Small Arms Firing School (rifle and ammo provided) and the next few days fire in the National Trophy Individual Match and The President's Match.

The matches are challenging, not impossible.

I've seen teenagers as Distinguished Riflemen, earning their President's Hundred tab.

They were shooting long range with black powder and lead bullets and iron sights.
Check out the Government 1879 45-70 Sandy Hook trials. 45-70 to 3200 yds again at 2500 yds, iron sights, front cross sticks, no rear support, 7 lb trigger pulls 7 different Springfield 45-70s shooting 500 gr bullets, with blackpowder and one good marksman. After the trials the government declared that the average trooper could engage the enemy at 1900 yds in 1879 with the Springfield rifles in 45-70 caliber.
Or the over 1500 yds shot at an Indian chief sitting on his horse by a Buffalo hunter with a 50-750-120 Sharps to end the battle of what would have been a massacre....too much bad medicine.
And all the old military 1898 Maurers with ladder sights graduated to 2000 meters...I used to have one. They were actually used at distance to engage the enemy...notably in Africa.
One has to modify his techniques in order to gain an advantage on his foe...like being able to load your muzzle loader on a full run through the woods...so "his gun is never empty." As the Indians learned the hard way.

Old Man with Gun said:

You can, but some might describe it as learning to swim in the deep end. It is easier to get solid on a bolt gun and transition to semi, just like it is easier to start with no recoil and work your way up.

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I honestly 100% disagree with this statement it's quite the opposite.

I've been shooting Gassers my whole life, literally my first rifle was my Grandfather's M1 Garand, if anything shooting Bolt Guns will handicap you because it allows you to be lazy with your fundamentals while Semi Auto platforms will exploit all of your weaknesses and flaws even though you think you have the fundamentals down with Bolt Gun.

I consider myself a True and Consistent .5-.70 MOA AR shooter, and honestly seem to keep a lower average with Large Frames, probably due to the weight of the platform.

Take a look through my Threads, Rifle/Barrel reviews and you'll see what I'm talking about.

if you start to compete in PRS shooting you'll notice that a lot of bolt gun shooters can easily get away with free recoiling their rifles, as a quality Bolt Rifle in most situations can be very forgiving especially when fatigue starts to set in.

As many will tell mention, you don't shoot a Gasser, you drive it.

The way you hold your Gas Rifle, Trigger Finger Position/follow through/reset, how much you load your Bipod, even the tension in your Shoulders.
The consistency at which you perform these otherwise automatic mussel memory tasks will be very clear down range.

On top of everything mentioned above even your Reloading techniques have to be critiqued over reloading for a Bolt Gun.

Neck Tension and how far you bump the Case Shoulder back is extremely critical for reliable and consistent results. Keep in mind gas guns are machines with various parts that must all work in unison at all times and can be easily disturb by carbon build up, dust and grit, lack of lubrication..so on and so forth.

In regards to proper neck tension on a semi-auto if your tension is not properly set your projectile will move forward upon chambering changing your COAL, thus affecting accuracy.

vvarvnn said:

start slow and focus on building solid fundamentals with a semi-auto.

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You could always lower your standards and shoot NRA/CMP where keeping everything under 2 MOA at 600yds is a really good score...

"Lower your standards." Ha!

A coat, sling, and glove vice a bipod or something else to rest the rifle on; standing, sitting, prone, rapids, and mandatory reloads; no-sighter (zero confirmation) wind calls based on your best estimate and the info written in your data book.

Bigjake83 said:

I honestly 100% disagree with this statement it's quite the opposite.

I've been shooting Gassers my whole life, literally my first rifle was my Grandfather's M1 Garand, if anything shooting Bolt Guns will handicap you because it allows you to be lazy with your fundamentals while Semi Auto platforms will exploit all of your weaknesses and flaws even though you think you have the fundamentals down with Bolt Gun.

I consider myself a True and Consistent .5-.70 MOA AR shooter, and honestly seem to keep a lower average with Large Frames, probably due to the weight of the platform.

Take a look through my Threads, Rifle/Barrel reviews and you'll see what I'm talking about.

if you start to compete in PRS shooting you'll notice that a lot of bolt gun shooters can easily get away with free recoiling their rifles, as a quality Bolt Rifle in most situations can be very forgiving especially when fatigue starts to set in.

As may will tell mention, you don't shoot a Gasser, you drive it.

The way you hold your Gas Rifle, Trigger Finger Position/follow through/reset, how much you load your Bipod, even the tension in your Shoulders.
The consistency at which you perform these otherwise automatic mussel memory tasks will be very clear down range.

On top of everything mentioned above even your Reloading techniques have to be critiqued over reloading for a Bolt Gun.

Neck Tension and how far you bump the Case Shoulder back is extremely critical for reliable and consistent results. Keep in mind gas guns are machines with various parts that must all work in unison at all times and can be easily disturb by carbon build up, dust and grit, lack of lubrication..so on and so forth.

In regards to proper neck tension on a semi-auto if your tension is not properly set your projectile will move forward upon chambering changing your COAL, thus affecting accuracy.

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I accept your point of view as one school of thought. Mine is different, I don't know you, but it is a safe bet I have as much experience as you, with just as many firearms and at ranges out past 2k. I have been a competitor, firearms instructor, etc. My school of thought has taught a great many people to shoot. I don't think there is a right answer or a single teaching style that is best.

It is absolutely possible. I was never a great shot, but I was good enough to get sent to the service rifle matches that the really skilled shooters competed in. Some of the lower-level ones I placed in, and in the big ones like the Interservice matches etc... I did NOT.

It is going to take a lot of determination and practice. PLUS, you are going to need some top-level coaching. There are so many minute details that we all miss unless someone with a bunch of medals is standing next to you, pointing them out as we make the errors.

When I moved from my unit to 2d MARDIV MTU (Marksmanship Training Unit), I immediately got "coaching" from the fellow MTU members when we practiced. There were three of them all watching me, and vice-versa. My shooting ability improved noticeably within just a couple sessions, and then it improved noticeably again when I got some coaching by the guys on the USMC rifle team.

There were dudes who could hold 2 MOA for 20 shots at 1K yards with an [iron-sighted 5.56]. I was not one of them. They are few and far between.

With modern equipment and optics, and I'd enjoy watching some videos of guys shooting 20 shot, 1 MOA groups at 1K. I haven't seen any yet though.

The universe did almost everything in its power to make me a bolt gun guy. My formative years from very early up until adolescence were almost predominantly bolt gun for centerfire.

For my initial formal long range training in Scout Platoons, we used the M24.

But I’ve always been a gas gun guy at heart for whatever reasons.

When I get on a bolt gun, it feels like cheating, especially a blueprinted, trued-up, modern precision rifle.

Feels like I can’t miss.

So I chase the best performance I can with a 12” 6.5 Grendel AR-15 instead. LOL

Every time I look at a slick bolt gun project, I always remind myself...”But it doesn’t do the thing."

vvarvnn said:

Is it possible to consistently hit targets at these distances (300-1,000 yards) with a semi-auto .308, given that I would be using match-grade ammunition?

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Yes.

vvarvnn said:

What are the key factors that would contribute to becoming skilled in this discipline with a semi-auto rifle? (e.g., barrel quality, trigger control, optics, training, etc.)

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While I have a clear bias for one particular manufacturer, there are a few decent large frame gas gun options on the current market (especially if you aren't expecting it to pass full-blown military acquisition test), so unless you completely ignore user recommendations you'll probably be fine. That said, functionality is a critical aspect. If the gun has a stoppage during a course of fire, it's going to be sub-optimal for performance.

While barrel quality is a factor, the performance is what matters. A good gas gun will average between 1 and 1.5 MOA for 10-shot groups. An exceptional gun will be 0.75-1.0 for 10-round group averages. This give very little leeway on small targets that you'll encounter in a PRS-type event, but 800-1,000+ is definitely do-able on a realistic target in real-world conditions.

While it's possible to get good results with a no so great trigger, a decent 2-stage trigger in the 4.5-5.5lb area is helpful. I don't recommend going under 4.5lbs as your probability of having an unintentional bump-fire event rises significantly the lower the trigger break weight is.

I like a flat bottom section of the stock to improve rear-bag use. I don't mind slope in the bottom flat, as i do use it for fast elevation adjustments, but there are very good arguments for having a flat bag rider that is parallel to the bore.

Some projectiles and cases are not designed for semi-auto use. I have seen problems with polymer tips getting damaged, and in some instances break off and shut the gun down. I have seen primers pop out while not at high pressure. I pretty much only shoot factory ammunition, and I have had many that are simply not suitable for gas-gun. I have had acceptable result with Berger, Federal, Winchester, Black Hills, and non-poly tip Hornady.

Recoil management is the name of the game with large-frame gassers, closely followed by trigger control. There is more "lag time" in the primer ignition sequence than with striker-fired bolt guns in general, which can make trigger control a greater impact to group dispersion even if the pull is identical. Working with a pistol, specifically one-handed precision, is a great training tool for trigger control. Triple points if you practice with a long double action trigger. Controlling the recoil and building a durable shooting position will help greatly in maintaining good groups for several reasons, but it also allows you to flex the benefit of the system: fast follow-up shots. Gas gun shooters find bolt guns "easy" and bolt gun-centric shooters find gas guns to be more difficult. Of course there's the whole difference in application and perception which can influence those feelings, but it's definitely easy to transition from gas gun to bolt gun.

Optics, mounts, bipods, ballistic calculators, rear bags, and that sort of equipment are pretty consistent between bolt guns and gas guns, so there's decent info out there on specific items. I do tend toward 1.5" or higher optic mounts for ARs, as lower than that is almost guaranteed to put your head in a bad position and will limit objective bell diameter. I do like christmas-tree reticles for gas guns, but I like to shoot things between 200 and 800 really fast, and that requires holding in a lot of situations. Not really the same thing if you are benchrest-style shooting focused, in which a simple reticle may be preferred.

There aren't a lot of large-frame focused classes out there, but you can find them. Veracity Solutions (Scott Peterson) put one on not too long ago, and I'm pretty sure he said that he was going to do more of them. Good precision rifle instructors should be able to give specific guidance and coaching to a gas-gun shooter, but you might want to check first.

vvarvnn said:

How much of a challenge is it to manage recoil, follow-up shots, and maintain accuracy with a semi-auto compared to bolt-action rifles at long range?

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Technically, the longer the range the less good at recoil management you have to be, as the time of flight gives you time to get back on target. The real challenge is at 100-200 where you will need to fight to control recoil to stay on target and "check your work through your sights". I use a pretty standard bolt-gun shooting position: very square behind the gun, stock as close to my centerline as possible. Learn to shoot the gun with a neutral-load or touch-load at most. I do use pretty firm rearward pressure with my firing hand, but that's something that you will need to work out on your own. Body position and natural point of aim are big contributors to good recoil management.

Good instruction is worth the price.

Bigjake83 said:

I honestly 100% disagree with this statement it's quite the opposite.

I've been shooting Gassers my whole life, literally my first rifle was my Grandfather's M1 Garand, if anything shooting Bolt Guns will handicap you because it allows you to be lazy with your fundamentals while Semi Auto platforms will exploit all of your weaknesses and flaws even though you think you have the fundamentals down with Bolt Gun.

I consider myself a True and Consistent .5-.70 MOA AR shooter, and honestly seem to keep a lower average with Large Frames, probably due to the weight of the platform.

Take a look through my Threads, Rifle/Barrel reviews and you'll see what I'm talking about.

if you start to compete in PRS shooting you'll notice that a lot of bolt gun shooters can easily get away with free recoiling their rifles, as a quality Bolt Rifle in most situations can be very forgiving especially when fatigue starts to set in.

As may will tell mention, you don't shoot a Gasser, you drive it.

The way you hold your Gas Rifle, Trigger Finger Position/follow through/reset, how much you load your Bipod, even the tension in your Shoulders.
The consistency at which you perform these otherwise automatic mussel memory tasks will be very clear down range.

On top of everything mentioned above even your Reloading techniques have to be critiqued over reloading for a Bolt Gun.

Neck Tension and how far you bump the Case Shoulder back is extremely critical for reliable and consistent results. Keep in mind gas guns are machines with various parts that must all work in unison at all times and can be easily disturb by carbon build up, dust and grit, lack of lubrication..so on and so forth.

In regards to proper neck tension on a semi-auto if your tension is not properly set your projectile will move forward upon chambering changing your COAL, thus affecting accuracy.

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Great post man!

How much neck tension?…. .004” or so?

How much shoulder bump?

Thanks

LRRPF52 said:

I think it’s easier with a small frame AR-15 shooting a cartridge that you can self-spot, that actually makes a noise and visible splash on-target.

.308s tend to come off-target and disrupt your sight picture quite a bit when shooting positions or with a lighter rifle. I do love the sound of 155-175gr hitting the steel, but I want to be able to maintain sight picture and see where the shot impacts too.

This is really the main reason why I shoot Grendel so much. I have .260 Rem AR-10s, .308 AR-10s, 6.5CM, and of course plenty of 5.56 free-floated AR-15s, but the Grendels get taken out while the others stay home mostly.

5.56 has excellent sight picture/ease of self-spotting, but doesn’t do much when you hit and struggles in the wind. Very pleasant experience on the back-end, not on the TGT-end.

Grendel is the Goldilocks in between them all. Your learning curve shooting a Grendel for LR will be steeper because you get to see what’s happening throughout the process, with very audible results on the TGT and plenty of bullet splash.

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All this - I came here to trouble shoot a LR308- got it sorted and spent the next 3 years learning how it liked to be shot . Now that I’ve moved on to the 6.5 Grendel I see what I did wrong .
More gas more movement more powder not as easy to self spot even though in theory the splash should be bigger with the 308/ 6.5 Gaymoore .
Easy shooting less has less powder better wind - all the attributes of the 5.56 but the 6.5 G/6 Arc ect don’t suck in the wind and don’t push you around as hard .

Earnhardt said:

Great post man!

How much neck tension?…. .004” or so?

How much shoulder bump?

Thanks

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Thanks brother,

.004 is about perfect, but I just recently bought some Redding Micrometer adjustable taper crimp dies.

When it starts to warm up I'm going to reload some of my Pet Loads and do some comparing between Crimp and Neck Tension and see what provides lowest SD/ES.

I bump mine .003 in my off the shelf barrels, and .002 on my Custom Cut Barrels.

I do envy Bolt Gun Shooters just having to Neck Size.

OP, it has already been said, but I’ll reiterate it-find a class and take it! I shoot gas guns and a bolt gun. I shoot my bolt 308 exponentially better than my ar10 308. The gas gun will highlight your flaws and errors. Another option is to take your ar10 and trade it on a bolt gun. You can get a good start with a tikka or howa or a few other options for a pretty affordable price.

You most definitely can shoot a gas gun accurately out to long range, but several have covered that topic on this thread. Good luck to you.

Bigjake83 said:

I honestly 100% disagree with this statement it's quite the opposite.

I've been shooting Gassers my whole life, literally my first rifle was my Grandfather's M1 Garand, if anything shooting Bolt Guns will handicap you because it allows you to be lazy with your fundamentals while Semi Auto platforms will exploit all of your weaknesses and flaws even though you think you have the fundamentals down with Bolt Gun.

I consider myself a True and Consistent .5-.70 MOA AR shooter, and honestly seem to keep a lower average with Large Frames, probably due to the weight of the platform.

Take a look through my Threads, Rifle/Barrel reviews and you'll see what I'm talking about.

if you start to compete in PRS shooting you'll notice that a lot of bolt gun shooters can easily get away with free recoiling their rifles, as a quality Bolt Rifle in most situations can be very forgiving especially when fatigue starts to set in.

As may will tell mention, you don't shoot a Gasser, you drive it.

The way you hold your Gas Rifle, Trigger Finger Position/follow through/reset, how much you load your Bipod, even the tension in your Shoulders.
The consistency at which you perform these otherwise automatic mussel memory tasks will be very clear down range.

On top of everything mentioned above even your Reloading techniques have to be critiqued over reloading for a Bolt Gun.

Neck Tension and how far you bump the Case Shoulder back is extremely critical for reliable and consistent results. Keep in mind gas guns are machines with various parts that must all work in unison at all times and can be easily disturb by carbon build up, dust and grit, lack of lubrication..so on and so forth.

In regards to proper neck tension on a semi-auto if your tension is not properly set your projectile will move forward upon chambering changing your COAL, thus affecting accuracy.

Click to expand...

100% I’m still trying to get consistent after 600 rds through it. But usually like 2-3x a yr doesn’t yield consistency so, much to work on and be desired lol

Bigjake83 said:

I honestly 100% disagree with this statement it's quite the opposite.

I've been shooting Gassers my whole life, literally my first rifle was my Grandfather's M1 Garand, if anything shooting Bolt Guns will handicap you because it allows you to be lazy with your fundamentals while Semi Auto platforms will exploit all of your weaknesses and flaws even though you think you have the fundamentals down with Bolt .

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That's some funny shit right there .

Haney said:

That's some funny shit right there .

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Oh.. why is that? Do tell.

Lowlight said:

Yes it’s all trigger control with a semi

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What AR10 triggers do you personally like best?

Lowlight said:

I don't really care to be honest,

Was around with the Giesselle Hype and it was just hype, the issue wasn't the triggers in the Knights guns, it was the shooters thinking they could transition from a 556 to a 308 and that was it... it's not.

If you drive the trigger right I don't what platform. you give me... I'll make it dance

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I can tell you right now, an 8lb factory trigger is a lot harder to “drive” than a 4lb geisselle trigger! So no, in this case? It’s not hype.

Lowlight said:

then use an AR Gold

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Sorry. They don’t make that for a FN Scar17

Lowlight said:

then use an AR Gold

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You prefer the fixed or adjustable?

I have also been pursuing the path of getting as good as I can with gas guns, having no real experience with precision bolt guns. I began seriously training last year, and plan to make it a big focus throughout this year.

One thing that you might consider is a 22lr upper to train with. Your not going to get the level of precision you could with a centerfire gas gun shooting high quality ammo, but you can get enough performance to learn what you are doing right and wrong.
Moreover, you can practice at shorter ranges and get the same effect as long range with a centerfire. The drop and windage at 200M with a 22lr is around that of 800M with a .308

Comparing cci std 22lr to cheaper match 5.56, I am spending $.08 instead of $.80 every time I pull the trigger. This allows me to get vastly more practice time in than I could otherwise afford to, and besides recoil control, the fundamentals are all the same. I am using my AR lower so the ergos are identical. And with the longer total lock time with 22lr, I would argue your fundamentals have to be even more locked in.

Wizard1183 said:

I can tell you right now, an 8lb factory trigger is a lot harder to “drive” than a 4lb geisselle trigger! So no, in this case? It’s not hype.

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Lowlight said:

then use an AR Gold

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Wizard1183 said:

Sorry. They don’t make that for a FN Scar17

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232593 said:

You prefer the fixed or adjustable?

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I'm willing to bet Frank said that just to throw you a bone, not because he thinks an AR Gold will improve your shooting beyond what a Gieselle will do.

Lowlight said:

The biggest problem today is, the world didn't exist before 2012, or I should say, it ended in 2012 and nothing has been the same since.

I was on the front lines of both the Mk11, M110, even the Scar stuff the Navy did at Rifles Only, so I saw the positioning to claim something was off, or wrong. Nothing was ever wrong with the triggers it was all Egos and contracts, the LaRue effect working in reverse....

Heck there was bigger argument for the cracked lower receivers which jammed the bolts If you didn't pull the stop out immediately after it cracked, that was better scandal, the triggers was just a grift.

Scar wise the trick is no barrel after the gas block, or less barrel, more barrel means droopy shots when it heats up

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You saying put a 13” instead of 16” wouldn’t accuracy fall past 300 if that?

You have to understand as well, in the military ammunition is free so shooting time is a luxury with unlimited firing time to become one with a rifle. Civilian is much different unless you have money pouring out of your ass

I'm no top shooter but it's very doable to get comfortable and shoot long range with an AR. I started with bolt actions and got into the AR's because of coyote hunting and it progressed from there. It helps if your a reloader unless you have a lot of money, not saying you need to shoot 50K rounds to get comfortable. My best advice is if you try to strangle the gun to keep control of it you will be all over the place. AR's in general have a natural flow rearward and when it's able to do that you can get very good groups with a good barrel.

A semi can allow one to be more accurate(not to be confused with precision) than a bolt gun sometimes.

On a windy day when the three of us were shooting a 1.5 moa steel at 1000Y my two friends were shooting bolt guns, one a 30-06 custom with 210's, and the other a 6.5 PRC with 147's. I was shooting my custom 6mmFatRat AR with 105 Berger hybrids out of a 22" barrel at 2760 fps. I "feared the worst", LOL!

The holdoff for wind was a lot and changed quite a bit but around 2 mils average for me. Basically they seldom hit the steel because the wind had changed just enough that by the time they cycled their bolts and shot again they'd miss just off the edge, although no they weren't super speedy at doing this. I shot fast, saw where I hit or missed, so then I could ride a wind condition ASAP, and tagged the steel quite a bit, like 2-3 hits, until the wind changed, then rinsed and repeated.

I can come close to my 6mmBR bolt gun in precision and accuracy at times with that same 6mmFatRat but not quite. However just the quick follow up shots for the semi makes up for it in the fun factor department.

Way back like 14 years ago I had a 26" 6mmART 40 Turbo upper that was more precise than my current 6mmFatRat is. A extra thick DPMS receiver, Bartlein barrel, custom dies, etc. I always had the feeling I didn't shoot up to the potenicial it was capable of because the groups were 3 to 4 touching then one or two out, but 3/4" groups were common.
Long story short I won a long range night match at the AZPRC with it. Steel from 300Y to 800Y IIRC. Most or all were shooting nice bolt guns. So in this particular case I doubt my 6x47L bolt gun would have been any better.

Hold the gun the same, load the bipod the same, press into your shoulder the same, press the trigger straight back, follow through and watch where the bullet lands. It's easier said than done but the results are consistent.

I sold my large frames with no plans to go back. No thanks I'll stay with my 6mm's.

Yup. With gas guns, I can stay 100% target and wind-reading focused. With bolt guns, I have to distract myself with running the bolt and breaking position somewhat, though a well-trained bolt gun shooter quickly learns how to minimize breaking position.

At one precision rifle match, the guy who hosted it was able to beat me on a speed stage with a bolt gun because he had trained on it so much before the match, but I claimed 2nd on that stage with my .260 Rem gasser. It was a "color games" stage where you pulled poker tokens out of a black bag in sequence, had to memorize the sequence, then run to the firing position and shoot a hanging steel set of plates that had all the colors corresponding to the poker pieces.

Everyone else’s times on that stage were significantly slower than ours. I basically treated it like a blend of a prone 3-Gun stage with precision rifle.

I’ve also been at matches where you had to group on paper at 600yds with no feedback, where I won the stage with that same .260 Rem. I attribute that to the fact that I had a lot more wind-reading experience over the years, and it put me on-TGT, whereas everyone else was pretty far off with windage.

Depending on how a match is staged, a gas gun will rarely be competitive though. You could take the same exact stages and conditions and structure the match to favor gas guns in several ways. Artificiality of load/unload, and shot timer with speed stages on plates are 2 ways to do it. KYL racks favor bolt guns though, so they are both closer than one might think.

I got to thinking about it and there were some stages at the Scorehigh Challenge in NM around that same time frame that favored a semi. One in particular was a IIRC a 100-ish mover. You'd get a higher score if you hit the A zone in the head and less if you hit anywhere else on the head. If you hit that A the red light would activate and it was a high round count stage. The red light kept going off and I won that stage with the 6mmART40 AR upper. If it weren't for that stage I wouldn't have gotten 2nd place at this match. The new guy, studly Chase Stroud, won the match and Tubb got 3rd. IIRC Tubb was top score on steel, of course using his T2000 in 6XC.

I took the .260 Rem Gas gun that GAP built for me back in 2009 out yesterday, along with 3 Grendels (12”, 17.6”, 18” LaRue).

My 9yr-old was center-punching 12” plates at 400yds no-problem with 12” and 18” Grendels.

I put him on the .260 Rem and he connected 2 for 2 at 780yds.

The .260 feels like it connects as soon as you pull the trigger.

It also weighs 14lbs. Bartlein barrel. Laser

Is it more difficult, yes. Can you do it.? Yes. I have gotten to where I absolutely love shooting my gas guns LR.