Annealing machine.........

Schw15

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  • Jul 21, 2019
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    I'm really considering the Quick annealer or the amp for my annealing. I don't think I want a flame and have to mess with the torch and flame setup all the time. I really want consistent annealing everytime with simplicity. I would be annealing everytime once I get which ever product to keep everything the same in reloading process. I've never really annealed and decided I prolly need to for case life and consistency on neck tension.

    Any info on products would be helpful
     
    I built my own, but if I were buying one, it would probably be an AMP. The Quick annealer is cheaper, but at that price point I wouldn't be worried about paying the extra the AMP costs.
     
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    AMP is popular for good reasons. It is the annealer for folks who don't want to test and run the feedback loops.
    If you flame anneal, it is up to you.
    If you run an AMP, your AZTEC mode demands a sacrifice, but once you appease the annealing gods, you don't need to learn how to get it right.

    Just keep in mind, if you do volume and want automation, the AMP is going to require and additional AMP Mate and case feeder, to fully automate.
     
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    Peterson Brass publishes the Aztec codes for all their lots so you don’t have to sacrifice a case. I don’t know if anyone else does this.
     
    Just an FYI on Peterson provided AMP codes. They generate the code with a piece of fired brass.

    We have had several lots of Peterson 7prc that performed like shit unless we annealed the virgin cases. We're talking well over an MOA at 100yds and tightening to around .5moa with the only change being annealing. We tried everything else individually as well and it always required annealing.

    Our codes generated on virgin Peterson 7prc hovers around the 0174 code area. Their codes for fired brass are in the 0140 area. Obviously the brass is in a different state than virgin from factory.


    That's not a knock on Peterson. Just an FYI.
     
    Just an FYI on Peterson provided AMP codes. They generate the code with a piece of fired brass.

    We have had several lots of Peterson 7prc that performed like shit unless we annealed the virgin cases. We're talking well over an MOA at 100yds and tightening to around .5moa with the only change being annealing. We tried everything else individually as well and it always required annealing.

    Our codes generated on virgin Peterson 7prc hovers around the 0174 code area. Their codes for fired brass are in the 0140 area. Obviously the brass is in a different state than virgin from factory.


    That's not a knock on Peterson. Just an FYI.

    There’s not going to be that much difference between new and 1x. They must have provided the wrong code.
     
    Just an FYI on Peterson provided AMP codes. They generate the code with a piece of fired brass.

    We have had several lots of Peterson 7prc that performed like shit unless we annealed the virgin cases. We're talking well over an MOA at 100yds and tightening to around .5moa with the only change being annealing. We tried everything else individually as well and it always required annealing.

    Our codes generated on virgin Peterson 7prc hovers around the 0174 code area. Their codes for fired brass are in the 0140 area. Obviously the brass is in a different state than virgin from factory.


    That's not a knock on Peterson. Just an FYI.
    For what it's worth, I always sacrifice a piece of my brass to generate a code for my brass. I don't rely on any codes from other folks. I want to know what my brass needs. Small price to pay.
     
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    Well, if you carefully read the AMP instructions, you are supposed to sacrifice several pieces of brass and take an average. And before you sacrifice several, you are supposed to wait, sort them, and choose several from the center of the weight distribution.

    I have a thread on this they got the AMP fans all bent out of shape because with different pieces of brass you get different codes, which kind of undermine the whole “perfect“ because it doesn’t matter how perfect the machine is if the cases are imperfect and they are. Even RWS and Lapua.
     
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    Well, if you carefully read the AMP instructions, you are supposed to sacrifice several pieces of brass and take an average. And before you sacrifice several, you are supposed to wait, sort them, and choose several from the center of the weight distribution.

    I have a thread on this they got the AMP fans all bent out of shape because with different pieces of brass you get different codes, which kind of undermine the whole “perfect“ because it doesn’t matter how perfect the machine is if the cases are imperfect and they are. Even RWS and Lapua.
    So the amp is better if you take multiple cases from what you are using and take the avg number to run for the whole lot your using? Then after a few firings are you needing to redo that test to get updated numbers?
     
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    For what it's worth, I always sacrifice a piece of my brass to generate a code for my brass. I don't rely on any codes from other folks. I want to know what my brass needs. Small price to pay.
    I thought everyone did that, I would never believe the info provided by other people .
     
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    Just got an AGS 3.0 (took 7 days to arrive from Serbia), and it took all of maybe 5 minutes to get the torch set up and things timed. I didn't use tempilaq, just neck glow and orange flame with lights off. But just trying to dent the case mouth on once fired and sized and then an annealed case tells me I did something. Annealed took a little force, and the other a lot. I am sure the AMP is real nice, but just playing around with the AGS for 15 minutes I don't think I will ever buy one.
     
    Just got an AGS 3.0 (took 7 days to arrive from Serbia), and it took all of maybe 5 minutes to get the torch set up and things timed. I didn't use tempilaq, just neck glow and orange flame with lights off. But just trying to dent the case mouth on once fired and sized and then an annealed case tells me I did something. Annealed took a little force, and the other a lot. I am sure the AMP is real nice, but just playing around with the AGS for 15 minutes I don't think I will ever buy one.
    Ignore the "orange flame" and let the neck glow for a second and you'll be just fine.
     
    So the amp is better if you take multiple cases from what you are using and take the avg number to run for the whole lot your using? Then after a few firings are you needing to redo that test to get updated numbers?
    "Better" can be tough to define. The real question is can anyone shoot the diffrence. Which then begs the question is it possible to shoot the diffrence.
     
    I built my own induction annealer at one point and it worked fine, but I have had an AMP since 2019 now. The DIY annealer was from accurately shooter forum dubbed the “GinaErik” annealer.


    Peterson offers AZTEC codes on their website per lot number and Alpha offers the codes if you email them.
     
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    I thought everyone did that, I would never believe the info provided by other people .
    Socrates claimed that we must learn from the mistakes of others because we cannot live long enough to make all of those mistakes ourselves. Throughout history, others have noted much the same. The mistake that lead to the demise of the other is one to pay particular attention to.
     
    So the amp is better if you take multiple cases from what you are using and take the avg number to run for the whole lot your using? Then after a few firings are you needing to redo that test to get updated numbers?
    Yes, the codes will change as the brass ages and thins.

    But I honestly don’t think the difference between say 174 and 179 Makes a bit of difference because you were going to have that much variation in a whole lot of identical cases

    Which again is why I say the “perfect“ part of the marketing is a sham. The only thing that might be close to perfect is the heat output of the induction coil for each a kneeling cycle. But because the cases are imperfect, it doesn’t really matter.
     
    Yes, the codes will change as the brass ages and thins.

    But I honestly don’t think the difference between say 174 and 179 Makes a bit of difference because you were going to have that much variation in a whole lot of identical cases

    Which again is why I say the “perfect“ part of the marketing is a sham. The only thing that might be close to perfect is the heat output of the induction coil for each a kneeling cycle. But because the cases are imperfect, it doesn’t really matter.
    I would think the amp would be more consistent though? Your kind of making me think that any annealer is just as good then......
     
    As said codes can change as brass thins around then neck. I’ll just state at least with my Alpha 6 Dasher brass that it hasn’t change in over 19 firings now. It was code 142 at 1 firing and is still 142 today. Really depends on how much the brass flows.
     
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    I would think the amp would be more consistent though? Your kind of making me think that any annealer is just as good then......
    https://www.ampannealing.com/instructions/
    FWIW
    This gives you an idea of what the sensitivity of using the average case weight would mean and how much hardness value variation there is with differences in the resulting code steps. You are able to change code values yourself based on your preferred feedback method, i.e. hardness value or seating force. You can always just run them without making adjustment changes unless you want to.

    I'm not telling you what to buy, but I am suggesting that if you go the flame route, and you are being picky, then you also need to be skilled at setting your process such that you can control your hardness value as tight as the AMP.

    In an industrial setting when a flame is used, the process controls include very good flame controls, long steady state large batch runs, and the benefit of a laboratory with hardness machines for flame setting feedback. If and unless you are meticulous with your flame setting and timing, and are prepared to experiment with your own feedback, then the easy button is to just use an AMP. It is possible to get this right on your own with a flame, but then the results are in your hands.


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    Remember, in a gross sense the grip on the bullet is a F=mu x N relationship.
    The hardness value per se is directly tied to the modulus and yield strength of the brass, or in that gross relationship, the "N" term.
    We are discussing annealing choices in some detail, but don't forget that the other side of that equation is the friction coefficient and also just as important to control. YMMV
     
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    I appreciate all the info but I have decided the amp route is the best........ just need to save a little money then get it bought.
    I enjoy using my AMP, be it at my workbench listening to music or a podcast, or on the coffee table sitting on the couch watching TV.
     
    The other thing that people aren’t talking about, but should be obvious is:

    Some guys don’t anneal after every firing and thus their brass hardness is not only not at the “perfect level” but it also varies from firing to firing, and lots of those guys can show you groups and standard deviations that suggest that it doesn’t matter that much

    Which leads me to the conclusion if your brass is anywhere near the “perfect” hardness range, and your necks aren’t splitting, you don’t need to fret about getting it or keeping it “perfect”

    It is odd to see the perspectives go all the way from “it doesn’t matter at all I don’t even do it” to “you have to have an AMP machine and get it “perfect“ or else you’re screwing everything up and wasting your time“

    Surely there is some compromise somewhere in there that maximizes all of the trade-offs of time and expense and other desiderata
     
    Socrates claimed that we must learn from the mistakes of others because we cannot live long enough to make all of those mistakes ourselves. Throughout history, others have noted much the same. The mistake that lead to the demise of the other is one to pay particular attention to.
    Some folks follow blindly and never learn shit .
     
    The other thing that people aren’t talking about, but should be obvious is:

    Some guys don’t anneal after every firing and thus their brass hardness is not only not at the “perfect level” but it also varies from firing to firing, and lots of those guys can show you groups and standard deviations that suggest that it doesn’t matter that much

    Which leads me to the conclusion if your brass is anywhere near the “perfect” hardness range, and your necks aren’t splitting, you don’t need to fret about getting it or keeping it “perfect”

    It is odd to see the perspectives go all the way from “it doesn’t matter at all I don’t even do it” to “you have to have an AMP machine and get it “perfect“ or else you’re screwing everything up and wasting your time“

    Surely there is some compromise somewhere in there that maximizes all of the trade-offs of time and expense and other desiderata
    There have been tons of extremely small, championship winning, groups fired out of cases annealed with torches or molten salt. The amount of difference caused by slight case weight variations on the annealing is not one of the things I'm going to worry about. Especially with an induction annealer.
     
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    Why not just give AMP a call? Their customer service has been excellent.
    I have had email conversations with Alex already, he basically told me I was out of luck. I purchased the gen 1 new in 2016. It has approximately 4K anneals on it. They said the repair parts were no longer available. I was hoping someone had luck with a simple part replacement or trick if they had a similar experience.
     
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    that is surprising.

    I only know that if you come here and piss and moan, all the AMP-fans (LOTS of them) will say you didn't give AMP a chance to resolve the problem and you will get no sympathy and be dragged into a quagmire of internecine warfare and mudslinging.

    I would double back and ask them "is my machine really so obsolete that it is beyond repair"?

    I'd be surprised if they offered no remedy beyond "buy a new one you rich motherf&*$er"

    (Wanted to bring some humor here; if you want a good laugh, watch the whole thing. The specific quote comes within 30 seconds of 4:55 in the video. hahah )