I can’t justify anymore firearms so it’s time to move on. I much prefer LR /prone shooting and really have no interest in helmet mounted NV. I wanted a device that could AT LEAST stand up to 338 Lapua, but 50BMG is preferred. I really liked the E3 Harris CNVD LR, but it’s only rated to 308. I found that the Eotech ClipNV LR is not only good to 20x mag, but also 50 cal rated. Anyone know of a better (maybe even better priced unit) or a reason I should not go with this unit? Price is not a huge concern. This is a buy once cry once purchase. Also I would like to be able to shoot as far as possible. Would adding a MAWL extend its range? This will see use primarily on my MRAD, Barrett M82, and 18” 6.5 Grendel. It will be a couple months (at least I’m trying to wait at least that long) before I purchase this to gather as much info as possible. I appreciate any insight!
About to purchase weapon mounted NV. Opinions please
- Thread starter thedude824
- Start date
I will be replacing the ATACR 5-25 on the MRAD with an ATACR 7-35 and moving the ATACR 5-25 to the M82. The Grendel wears an NX8 2.5-20x
I would strongly suggest going thermal vs NV. The pros have all moved to thermal. Target detection is so much better.
I haven't been able to look through the latest thermal, mine is only 384 core so maybe things have changed. But my take is thermal excels at detection, but falls short on identification and precision, has that changed?
OP, how far and for what? Target, Hunting?
Yeah. You have those assumptions because you have only looked through a 384 core thermal. It will perform like shit at distance.
The new good stuff is very capable out to 1K. If you have USG money then that goes out to as far as you want it to.
The new good stuff is very capable out to 1K. If you have USG money then that goes out to as far as you want it to.
There is alot to making this decision. If you have access to a powerful IR illuminator, NV works well for static (IE steel plate) target shooting to long distances. The ClipNV units are good quality and I think they have Elbit tubes of reasonably high spec. That being said you can get retubed PVS units that are higher FOM but I don't know if they are rated to 50 BMG.
Good thermal (640 core units blows these out of the water for detection and hunting. Unless you pay BIG bucks though, target ID is more difficult. Also it will suffer in conditions where the temperature differential is minimized... IE certain times of day/night, shooting unheated steel plates on the backdrop of a hillside can be almost impossible. This is negated if you are engaging living targets of course.
While not even the latest generation unit, I have been able to successfully ID smaller animals like turkeys out to ~600 yards with a ClipIR XELR. In comparison, my friend has a L3 high FOM retubed PVS 30 and also does well... But it lacks the immediate detection and engagement capability.
Another question is even if a unit is rated to 50 BMG... Do you actually want to abuse your extremely expensive unit with heavy recoil? Or have it lose collimation? Also if you think spotting hits with a heavy recoiling weapon is hard during the day, it will be impossible at night...
Good thermal (640 core units blows these out of the water for detection and hunting. Unless you pay BIG bucks though, target ID is more difficult. Also it will suffer in conditions where the temperature differential is minimized... IE certain times of day/night, shooting unheated steel plates on the backdrop of a hillside can be almost impossible. This is negated if you are engaging living targets of course.
While not even the latest generation unit, I have been able to successfully ID smaller animals like turkeys out to ~600 yards with a ClipIR XELR. In comparison, my friend has a L3 high FOM retubed PVS 30 and also does well... But it lacks the immediate detection and engagement capability.
Another question is even if a unit is rated to 50 BMG... Do you actually want to abuse your extremely expensive unit with heavy recoil? Or have it lose collimation? Also if you think spotting hits with a heavy recoiling weapon is hard during the day, it will be impossible at night...
I would like 1000 yards. Most would likely be within 800 yards. It probably wouldn’t get much use on the 50, but a lot of use with 338 Lapua and likely 41XC. As with everyone else.. I would like to be able to shoot steel at night to practice, but detection would be a more critical role. I see what you guys are saying… there is definitely a divergence. I would absolutely need to be able to differentiate say a bear and a person at 1k yards.
In further reading it seems that the PVS30 is going to be the better NV unit, but what would be an equivalent thermal unit? These will be shot prone or from a tripod 100% of he time.
In further reading it seems that the PVS30 is going to be the better NV unit, but what would be an equivalent thermal unit? These will be shot prone or from a tripod 100% of he time.
Thermal is best all around and far better at detection but that can be overcome a good bit with a thermal handheld scanning. I use a CNVD-LR if I am going to be shooting longer distances. Thermal lets me down after a certain range is surpassed in clarity at higher magnification. Its is also very difficult to get it sigted in as tight as I like for longer ranges. I am sure there are better things out in terms of thermals but not likely at a price I am willing to do. I use 640 12um stuff so it is good but again you will need the very best thermals for distance. 80% of the time thermal is what we use because it's yotes and inside about 300 yards. If you want to be shooting with decent magnification and clarity at 800-1000 I would say something like the CNVD-LR is much better.
If you realistically want to shoot critters at 600+ yards and actually know what they are, you will need a REALLY good thermal. ClipIR XELR and Voodoo M come to mind. They are big bucks.
What would you all suggest if I were to use a handheld monocular (NV or Thermal) WITH a weapon mounted counterpart? Perhaps a handheld thermal and a PVS30 since those will allegedly handle a 50BMG and up to 20x mag. Looks like the KAC PVS30 is about 13k. The Iray thermals are pretty reasonable. I don’t know how great a thermal would be as my MAIN optic enhancement since I’m in Tampa Bay Area Florida. It’s pretty warm ALL the time.
Say a NOX35 which could be mounted directly to a rifle AND a PVS30? That would keep me in the newer equipment range for a few years I would hope.
Say a NOX35 which could be mounted directly to a rifle AND a PVS30? That would keep me in the newer equipment range for a few years I would hope.
Last edited:
I have shot out to 800 and 1100yds with a stellar pvs30 with a factory built L3 unfilled tube. I can tell you that even with full power IR, identify steel is hard. Doable at 800 in the right conditions. Really hard at 1100yds. Seeing misses and splashes is almost impossible unless you are shooting into a sand bank.
500-700yds is a hard night shot with clip ons.
Thermal is awesome. I put the steel targets next to my wood stove during the day and being them out at night. In the summer I will try the same with my chest freezer. But I'm cheating the environment here by doing that. I can sometimes see misses in the snow or dirt.
Each has its trade offs. But if you can hear the target then thermal gets my vote.
500-700yds is a hard night shot with clip ons.
Thermal is awesome. I put the steel targets next to my wood stove during the day and being them out at night. In the summer I will try the same with my chest freezer. But I'm cheating the environment here by doing that. I can sometimes see misses in the snow or dirt.
Each has its trade offs. But if you can hear the target then thermal gets my vote.
Attachments
I wouldn't pay $13K for a new Pvs30. They can regularly be found here for much less. Also, while white units are awesome, at that distance you will definitely need IR and it will make a green vs white tune much more even. I went through a few PVS30 units and found my way back to a PVS27. Its built like a tank and 50bmg rated. The tradeoff is some rail space you have to plan around.
I had 4 PVS30 units. And the only reason is because 3 of them shit the bed (two were the replacement units directly from KAC). I had more issues than most but your mileage may vary. KAC took care of me but it was a lot of work to stay on them and it took a year. My buddy has a 30 that has been great.
The retubed 30s are actually the double battery PVS26 and seem to have less issues.
Others are more experienced here than me with thermals. I have been playing with a Guide TA651 from SOK and been enjoying it so far. At some point I will step it up to a milspec unit. Maybe the up and coming NVision when it's out.
We shoot mostly 500yds at night and the last few times out I have used the thermal exclusively. But heated the steel.
Would you suggest holding off and waiting for a unit to appear for sale in here? I worry about support if I buy second hand. The only PVS27 I found for sale was only rated for 762. I need 338 Lapua at bare minimum.
How much difference is there in an Eotech ClipNV LR and a PVS30?
A used green tubed PVS 27 or PVS30 will range from $4000-$5000. I paid $3800 for my first PVS27 in 2021. 99% of green tubes are factory and recoil rated higher. A white tubed factory unit going to go for closer to $6500-$8000.
I think I got $6500 for my factory L3 CNVD-LR with an L3 unfilled white tune and about $87.5-8K for the factory L3 PVS30 with a similar tune once I sold some of the stuff I took in on trade.
The stuff that has been retubed by Sureshot is phenomenal. And if you have issues, he is probably the better option instead of dealing with KAC or FLIR unless there is a warranty. Most warranties are only for a year.
The EoTech warranties are tough because you have to send them overseas to Greece and deal with a team over there. Good luck. At least that is where the thermals go. I would definitely consider getting an EoTech from a dealer so they could help push the warranty along or take care of you in the meantime.
Short story is yes, I would look for a used clip on. If you are willing to pay that price, You could almost get both a thermal and night vision unit. If you buy used, buy it from someone with a lot of feedback. Ask about POI/POA shift, pics through the tube, etc.
If you want new thermal or clip on, where a warranty may matter more, I would reach out to the Strictly Offensive Kit team and get their thoughts.
Don’t forget about a used Kn203. Can be found used for $2-2500. Way better image to me than PVS30 and you can actually reach the focus knob. Paired with a Luna will be good to 1k and farther depending on ambient conditions. Just not certain of recoil rating on it.
That's a good point, my only take on that system from afar as someone who hasn't used it is that it ends up being dedicated to a single rifle. So you can't swap it between others without having to basically re-zero. It's also pretty chunky.
That answers all my questions. I’ll start putting some extra money away and keep my eyes open for a good used PVS30. Would mounting a Dbal D2 on a diving board mount help extend range?
I think either a pvs30 or pvs27 would be a good choice. They weigh the same and have similar performance.
The diving board on top can be tough for IR. It's closer to manipulate so thats nice. But if it's cooler out or conditions are right, gas vents up from the can and will bloom the IR and then make it hard to see follow ups. I think the better option is at 9 or 3 o'clock.
The D2 will be harder to run on the side because of how bulky it is and may have to be on the left side to prevent the illuminator from touching the clip on. But on the left it might impact against a bipod. Pros and cons. I run my FP DBAL A2 on the right at 3 o'clock slightly behind the pvs27.
I am no expert at all by any means. To me, it seems like thermal is best for moving animal targets like predators like 'yotes and feral hogs and even bobcats (west Texas.) Thermal would probably suit me best for shooting at deer at the beginnings and endings of legal light. The moment just before sun creeps up or down behind the horizon.
But the value of thermal on hogs and other critters is that you are aiming at heat.
I had asked others what is best for hog hunting and everyone said thermal. But thermal in low light conditions on targets that are neutral in temperature would be, I think, difficult to distinguish, as opposed to NV, which is squeezing every last photon out of the available light.
edited to add, I thought NV might work for me at the low light conditions of deer hunting. But still, I think, most people will choose thermal if they have to money for it.
But the value of thermal on hogs and other critters is that you are aiming at heat.
I had asked others what is best for hog hunting and everyone said thermal. But thermal in low light conditions on targets that are neutral in temperature would be, I think, difficult to distinguish, as opposed to NV, which is squeezing every last photon out of the available light.
edited to add, I thought NV might work for me at the low light conditions of deer hunting. But still, I think, most people will choose thermal if they have to money for it.
Last edited:
I originally considered the Kiji, but read it maxes out at 400 yards while the D2 will illuminate out to 1k. Any other options? Rather not spend $3200 on a MAWL but will of if I have to
I agree, it looks like 9 and 3 would likely interfere with the PVS30. The 338 is a 26” barrel (pic is with the 24” 308 barrel) and the Hybrid 46 is roughly 8” long. I wouldn’t be doing quick follow-ups, but do you think it could still present a problem with a diving board mounted D2? This would be the main host for the PVS30.
That is an awesome looking rifle. I would be tempted to give the diving board a shot. Worst case you might end up putting a laser rangefinder on it anyways.
The D2 is probably a better option for distance than the kiji 3. I have one of those and have largely been disappointed. The illumination is very clean compared to a full power PEQ or similar, but it blooms terribly. If there's anything remotely in the way of the beam throw, it's going to bloom. It's great inside of 200 yd. 300 yd is a stretch in most conditions though.
Think with the D2 you should be getting out to 400 or 500 yd pretty consistently. If you want to go beyond that, then you'll need some type of full power peq15 or similar. My buddy's NGAL started to struggle in some conditions once it got out closer to 500 or 600 yd. If I recall correctly. It's because it doesn't tighten down as much as the older units.
Maybe a full power RAID? The Dbal A2 is generally a pretty good option with a slightly cleaner illuminator than a PEQ. Maybe start with the D2 and see how far you can get and then figure out if you need to find a used full power unit somewhere in the exchange on the forum. They usually pop up between $1,500 and $1,800.
Ok. I’m a cheap bastard, so full disclosure there. 1. I would research recoil rating of KN203. Pretty sure it can handle 338 and for the price I’d be willing to try it out if not specifically stated. 2. Buy a Luna. 3. Mount both to rifle and see if this is something you even want to get into. 4. Buy a thermal scanner to detect critters, could even be a cheap 384 unit, but could likely find a good 640 unit for $2k or less. 5. Go hunt/try it out. 6. Learn what works for your conditions and what you would like to upgrade.
For under $5k you’ve got a viable setup that is kinda heavy, but freaking works for all the parameters you’ve given. Over the next couple of years you learn what might work better, and could resell at minimal loss if wanted to upgrade. Or decide it isn’t for you with least amount of capital invested. This a freaking expensive hobby that isn’t for everyone. I’ve spent a shit ton of money towards it but it makes me happy, might not be the same for you. Best to dip your toe in instead of cannon balling in and regretting it later.
For under $5k you’ve got a viable setup that is kinda heavy, but freaking works for all the parameters you’ve given. Over the next couple of years you learn what might work better, and could resell at minimal loss if wanted to upgrade. Or decide it isn’t for you with least amount of capital invested. This a freaking expensive hobby that isn’t for everyone. I’ve spent a shit ton of money towards it but it makes me happy, might not be the same for you. Best to dip your toe in instead of cannon balling in and regretting it later.
This is kind of what I was thinking too. Can’t really go wrong with the D2. I can get them brand new for $1220… but only 1. The diving board mount for the Spuhr scope mount is only $73, so I think that’s the plan.
My buddies all have helmet mounted bino’s and do a lot of night shooting with carbines. So worst case I could put it on one of my carbines and maybe get a bino set in the future. It’s better than buying more expensive guns that just sit in the safe.
For carbines a D2 is great. For a precision rig shooting out to 600m+ it is shit compared to a Luna. And a Somogear PEQ15 is just as good as a D2 for 90% of use case at 1/6 the cost. And it doesn’t give a giant red glow that spooks animals if hunting them within 200m.
Ok, I’m done with this thread. Best of luck to you, OP, just trying to give a second opinion from someone who’s been in your shoes before.
Ok, I’m done with this thread. Best of luck to you, OP, just trying to give a second opinion from someone who’s been in your shoes before.
I get it and I understand the rationale. I’m more of the “research for months and pester as many people as possible and then buy excellent quality”. In life, I don’t make many purchases.. but they are all high end. Whether they ACTUALLY get the use isn’t a huge factor. I spent $8500 on my M82 like 8 years ago and have put like 10 rounds through it. I still love it and won’t sell it. I faced some crazy circumstances and did nothing but chase lofty goals for well over a decade. While I still search for good prices/deals I really only buy higher end everything. No temptation to upgrade.
Haven’t heard of the Luna. I’ll check it out. Thank you. Wow… thank you! That looks like exactly what I’m looking for!
Last edited:
The Luna ELIR is nice because it has a the ability to adjust output. I don't know how high they are recoil rated to, but most avoid weapon mounting and run on a spotting setup.
Shooting with a buddy who has a setup as well who can throw IR from their rifle while you shoot is super helpful.
Clip ons are a whole different ballpark than binos or a pvs14. Goggles are essential for navigating. My clip ons get used a lot less. But they are king for past 200-300 yards.
Another nice thing about the full power Dbal A2 units is they have adjustment knobs. The PEQ15 requires a coin or similar. So if you are swapping between rifles it's a little harder to adjust once you are out shooting. The downside is all of those full power units are gray market and won't get warrantied.
Shooting with a buddy who has a setup as well who can throw IR from their rifle while you shoot is super helpful.
Clip ons are a whole different ballpark than binos or a pvs14. Goggles are essential for navigating. My clip ons get used a lot less. But they are king for past 200-300 yards.
Another nice thing about the full power Dbal A2 units is they have adjustment knobs. The PEQ15 requires a coin or similar. So if you are swapping between rifles it's a little harder to adjust once you are out shooting. The downside is all of those full power units are gray market and won't get warrantied.
Ugh… well again… thank you. I didn’t consider recoil and since it may never be shot on anything LESS than a 338LM that’s an issue. I’ll just go with the D2. I’ll get the diving board for the Spuhr and see if it works better on the diving board or at the 3 or 9 O clock position. I tend to gravitate towards higher end stuff because I absolutely hate to troubleshoot. I’d much rather worry about mounting location than overall functionality. I’ll see if I can get some dimensions on the D2 and mock it up. I’m only using the regular Atlas V8 bipod, not the super wide bipod.
