The title speaks for itself. Are electronic levels worth it over bubble levels? Why? Considering getting a Sg Pulse of Send it but not sure if it will make a difference.
Are Electronic Levels Worth it?
- Thread starter Himrightthere
- Start date
I believe so because it makes me pay attention better to the level. The flashing lights are an eye catching sight.
Also I would have bought the SG Pulse over the MDT Level I have now. Wish is came out sooner.
Also I would have bought the SG Pulse over the MDT Level I have now. Wish is came out sooner.
Absolutely, especially if you’re competing. Like @Stuey mentioned, the lights really stand out. You don’t need to focus on them too much like the traditional bubble level—just watch for the green light, and send it.
IMHO, yes. I have since sold off my MDT/LRA send-its in favor of the SG Pulse
I use traditional bubble levels. I’m a firm believer that I can see cant before the level does. I’m not saying they’re useless and run them on my badger mounts but I can’t see how splitting attention on one with lights is that helpful.
maybe barricade shooting is different since that’s not my expertise but I’d think you’d want even more concentration on reticle there
maybe barricade shooting is different since that’s not my expertise but I’d think you’d want even more concentration on reticle there
Based on your experience what makes the SG Pulse better other than cost and charging?
You can zero it to whatever you want, you can use it to level a scope, battery life is better than Send-It, you can upgrade the firmware, etc.
I have no ax to grind about the SG Pulse...never saw one. But:
1. The Send-it also allows user zeroing and can later be reset to factory settings and calibration
2. Battery life....not sure I'd need more than 100 hours. How many battery hours on the SG Pulse...do you know?
3. Use to level scope - I don't see why this is a distinction between the two? There is no reason why not…you can use the Send-it to level...well, anything. It’s a level, eh?
What I see as the main distinction between the two (aside from light display) is the SG app that shows/records (I believe you can record it) movement. I have no need for that either but Keith Glasscock uses it in his Winning in the Wind vid and its seems helpful to him for post competition evaluation.
Cheers
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For reference, I beta tested the original Send-It before it was bought out by MDT.I have no ax to grind about the SG Pulse...never saw one. But:
1. The Send-it also allows user zeroing and can later be reset to factory settings and calibration
View attachment 8577575
2. Battery life....not sure I'd need more than 100 hours. How many battery hours on the SG Pulse...do you know?
View attachment 8577578
3. Use to level scope - I don't see why this is a distinction between the two? There is no reason you can use the Send-it to level...well, anything. Its a level, eh?
What I see as the main distinction between the two (aside from light display) is the SG app that shows/records (I believe you can record it) movement. I have no need for that either but Keith Glasscock uses it in his Winning in the Wind vid and its seems helpful to him for post competition evaluation.
Cheers
The zeroing process for the SG Pulse is way, way easier than the send it. It's a simple push of the button on the unit OR pressing the calibrate on the app.
As far as using it as a level, its purpose built as a box to level anything. What's even nicer is you can level an object, it will remember it, AND then tell you how far off the distance between the two measurements is BOTH on the X and Y axis as well as Z axis. This is helpful if you're doing a field level after tearing apart your rifle. Minimal use, yes, but helpful when you need it.
Battery life is 80 hours and doesn't require a battery. Simple charging. The cable is semi-proprietary, but you can buy replacements on Amazon easily. From my experience, the send it dies at the end of every 2 day match (I've owned 3 of them).
Sure, if you want to go off Keith says, then get whatever you want. From a PRS standpoint, he tends to overanalyze everything (but that's part of his job). I shoot with Keith at 2 day matches...
I use my eyes and ears. It’s free and there’s no batteries or firmware involved.
While I don't disagree the best level is your braing and you should train it, part of the way you train it is by having good level references and keeping your brain sharp.
Levels are also sanity check on mistakes in conditions you know could be misleading.
Dunning-Kruger effect
When people respond with what is said, it tells me something: they don't shoot enough, they shoot at the same range all the time, and/or they don't know what they're talking about.
I don’t disagree necessarily but almost all the chassis and serious scope mount already have built in levels.
Do you really need another battery powered one for that sanity check ?
The idea of a light changing color in the periphery while you're still focused on your reticle sounds nice.
Is this assumption on how it works correct?
Is this assumption on how it works correct?
Been using my mdt send it level the past couple weeks and love it. I have it mounted on a area 419 scope mount in the vertical position and it's very easy to see with me left eye. I have the sensitive level at 4. I also have area 419 bubble level just in case. I don't see why not specifically since I shoot elr.
Depending on what you want, both levels get you to your destination.
Here is a demonstration of the SG Pulse training app (called Drills) on my first outing.
Here is a demonstration of the SG Pulse training app (called Drills) on my first outing.
Some of the comments in xring’s review are not confidence-inspiring.
For example, YT user named tzshoots says this:
This review isn’t great either
www.snipershide.com
Maybe the company has corrected these issues?
Even though Frank poo-poos using a level on the gun (he’s prob right), since I already had a couple I slap them on.
I like my Accuracy 1st level the most, which reacts quicker than a bubble level (uses a ball, not a bubble) and can be more intuitive when correcting the cant. Also have the little bubble level that comes with the Mbrace mounts.
For example, I think we’ve all been there with bubble levels at one point in our lives. “Which way do I move the < insert object > to level it?” I’ve often thought. In my case, I then move the gun the wrong way lol. (If you use levels a lot, this mistake can go away)
I’ve gotten better with bubble levels, but there’s always something a little counterintuitive going on with them. Probably because the cylinder models we use are so short. And I suppose many people don’t tend to work with “floating dynamics” that much in their day-to-day lives.
See my below rough sketch. I find the Accuracy 1st (top) “interface” much more intuitive vs the bubble level (bottom). With the latter, there always seems to be an intermediary mental step that happens in my brain when I go to level.
Of course, a bubble-type level does you no good if you cannot focus on it. I’m struggling with that now.
For example, YT user named tzshoots says this:
This review isn’t great either
Shooters Global Pulse -> electronic level -shoot diagnostics tool
SG Pulse electronic level presented at IWA seems that it will be eating the MDT/Send it level for breakfast and doing it for 150$. Given SG has great timers as well i suspect some time down the line we might see a unit linked to their existing timer with some audible countdown function.
www.snipershide.com
Maybe the company has corrected these issues?
Even though Frank poo-poos using a level on the gun (he’s prob right), since I already had a couple I slap them on.
I like my Accuracy 1st level the most, which reacts quicker than a bubble level (uses a ball, not a bubble) and can be more intuitive when correcting the cant. Also have the little bubble level that comes with the Mbrace mounts.
For example, I think we’ve all been there with bubble levels at one point in our lives. “Which way do I move the < insert object > to level it?” I’ve often thought. In my case, I then move the gun the wrong way lol. (If you use levels a lot, this mistake can go away)
I’ve gotten better with bubble levels, but there’s always something a little counterintuitive going on with them. Probably because the cylinder models we use are so short. And I suppose many people don’t tend to work with “floating dynamics” that much in their day-to-day lives.
See my below rough sketch. I find the Accuracy 1st (top) “interface” much more intuitive vs the bubble level (bottom). With the latter, there always seems to be an intermediary mental step that happens in my brain when I go to level.
Of course, a bubble-type level does you no good if you cannot focus on it. I’m struggling with that now.
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Dude, seriously, fuck that thing. It does not tell you witch way to go or how close you are. The send it is 5 bulbs. If 2 on one side are of your way off, if one on one side is on your getting closer, Green means go how fucking simple can it get? You don't have to spent time fuckin with your phone. Just take it out of the box, wing nut it on and shoot the fuckin match.
So, in other words, you have no idea how it works.
1. It literally follows the same light pattern R-L as Send-It
2. You don't need a phone
3. It works out of the box
I was skeptical about moving to an electronic level after using a bubble-level for more than a few years, and initially I didn’t like it as when I first started using it I found it sort of “dazzling” since I always shoot with both eyes open.
Now that I’m used to it I can’t imagine going back, it’s soooo much faster. As has been said: green means go, simple as that. I have mine mounted on the side of my scope mount and IDK if I even think about it anymore, I just don’t pull the trigger when it isn’t green lol.
FWIW, I went with the older Send-It after considering the SG Pulse, probably for the same reason I run a Manners TCS… I’m a fan of things that are straightforward and uncomplicated versus things that give one every option under the sun, I see lack of complexity as the best feature ever.
Now that I’m used to it I can’t imagine going back, it’s soooo much faster. As has been said: green means go, simple as that. I have mine mounted on the side of my scope mount and IDK if I even think about it anymore, I just don’t pull the trigger when it isn’t green lol.
FWIW, I went with the older Send-It after considering the SG Pulse, probably for the same reason I run a Manners TCS… I’m a fan of things that are straightforward and uncomplicated versus things that give one every option under the sun, I see lack of complexity as the best feature ever.
I played around with a lot more types of levels as well as mounting positions than I had previously used for the article on level use in precision rifle. This included buying an MDT Send-It. I have used it a good bit now on a wide variety of rifles. I think it does require less attention to utilize as the colored lights mean you never have to directly focus your eye on it. I believe this is probably a particularly strong advantage when you are on the clock in a competition and the shot is from and uncomfortable and unusual position. In the time after doing the article I haven't found myself using the Send-It very often though. This is despite how easy it is to pull out of the bag and zero to the rifle. All of my rifles have bubble levels on them calibrated to the rifle so setting up the Send-It takes less than a minute to attach it to the rail and set it's zero to the already calibrated bubble level. Despite that, I don't use it much because I don't shoot timed competitions and the advantage over the bubble level each of my rifles already have when shooting off familiar positions without time constraints is not that significant. This is true even for the rifles with less ideal bubble level configurations such as the tiny, poorly illuminated one built into the Zeiss rings.
My take is that the Send-It is an excellent tool for competition use but not a big advantage for other applications. I specifically would not want one sticking out banging into everything on a hunting rig as it is rather big. I like the mode of use where the Send-It is stored off of a rifle with a permanent bubble level and attached and zeroed to that level for specific use cases as this is very quick and easy to do. There is a section of level use article I linked above where I talk about what I think of a variety of level products and mounting configurations.
I thought it was straight the whole time. Maybe that's why I got a zero.
Got laughed at when we used them back in 2005 but now you ain’t cool unless you use one. lol
Studies suggest humans can detect vertical level at less than 2 degrees of mean accuracy. I put levels on my guns but I think humans are very capable of detecting level accuracy to shoot without them and rarely use mine while shooting.
Cite:
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Cite:
Subjective Visual Vertical in Various Vestibular Disorders by Using a Simple Bucket Test - PMC
Subjective Visual Vertical (S.V.V.) assesses the ability to perceive verticality which depends on visual, vestibular and somatosensory inputs. The judgment of verticality is altered when there is otolith dysfunction. Objective of our study was to ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
No
Not worth it
Bubble will get you to a fraction of a percent even if it’s just between the lines, not perfectly centered
1% cant doesn’t make a click of difference inside of 1000 yards, and perfect leveling becomes a distraction for the shooter at shorter ranges
You have to worry about batteries all the time
Useless weight, bulk, and expense unless your vestibular apparatus is short-circuited
I sold mine. All of them.
ETA I just checked. My 223 w 75 ELD-M is not affected 0.1 MRAD until there is 4% cant
Wasting your time with levels inside of 1000 yards.
Check for yourself
Not worth it
Bubble will get you to a fraction of a percent even if it’s just between the lines, not perfectly centered
1% cant doesn’t make a click of difference inside of 1000 yards, and perfect leveling becomes a distraction for the shooter at shorter ranges
You have to worry about batteries all the time
Useless weight, bulk, and expense unless your vestibular apparatus is short-circuited
I sold mine. All of them.
ETA I just checked. My 223 w 75 ELD-M is not affected 0.1 MRAD until there is 4% cant
Wasting your time with levels inside of 1000 yards.
Check for yourself
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While the eyeball is very discerning of vertical lines, you need a reference. When shooting off of anything that is not plumb/level with gravity or at targets that are not hung vertically with gravity, especially adding in elevation or declination, you would be surprise how far off you are from where your brain thinks its level.Studies suggest humans can detect vertical level at less than 2 degrees of mean accuracy. I put levels on my guns but I think humans are very capable of detecting level accuracy to shoot without them and rarely use mine while shooting.
Cite:
Subjective Visual Vertical in Various Vestibular Disorders by Using a Simple Bucket Test - PMC
Subjective Visual Vertical (S.V.V.) assesses the ability to perceive verticality which depends on visual, vestibular and somatosensory inputs. The judgment of verticality is altered when there is otolith dysfunction. Objective of our study was to ...
You learn quickly when you shoot a bunch of different venues how valuable the level is. For example shooting off a bus that is sloping down at a target across a valley, you would have no spacial reference to get it level. In fact, the first couples times you see it you will think your level is broken or something is wrong, because you can't understand how the gun is which appears to be severely canted, is level.
Its honestly an experience thing. I thought levels were dumb when I started competing and quickly got burned bad enough I saw the light. And nothing is as intuitive or quick as the electronic levels. I would always forget to check my bubble levels, but you can't ignore a bright colored light in your peripheral vision. It becomes second nature and a part of your shot process.
Anyone telling you they are not worth it or not to run one, frankly should be ignored. They are wrong and are too ignorant of the subject matter to realize they are wrong.
You can try to calculate numbers but its misleading. That doesn't factor in wind, which is variable and an educated guess. Try holding 2 mils or more of wind at a target and tell me a Level doesn't matter. We don't shoot in a vacuum. There are a ton of variables that influence each shot, and a non leveled reticle just makes those others problems exponentially worse.
I wont even own a rifle that gets shot past 500 yards without a electronic level. They all get one.
Depends on your use case. Shooting prone at full size IPSC's inside of 1000 yards? probably not worth it. Building positions on odd props and sending a shot in under 15s? I think so.
A lot of guys saying they're a waste of time and money tend to say basically the same things:
1. They're expensive. A bubble gets you there just fine.
They are expensive, but worth it to me. Bubbles take a little bit of time to settle properly and require me to focus elsewhere to see them, meaning I ignore them a lot. I don't have that problem with electronic levels and the neat piece of fiber optic that puts it directly in my peripheral.
2. Levels are stupid inside 1000 because it takes a lot of cant to be off, and we can determine level well enough naturally.
Yes we can determine level under good circumstances. Maybe not so much on extremely canted ground, out of plumb t-posts, and under a time crunch, with that last one being most important to me. I'm also not particularly interested in something as stupid as not having my rifle level add to the error stackup I already have to manage. If I can eliminate it and get an extra tenth of target budget back, I'm game.
Personally, I put a Send-It & a Brandt Built setup on all my comp guns and I hit more targets. Plenty of other people do it differently and it works for them. This works for me.
A lot of guys saying they're a waste of time and money tend to say basically the same things:
1. They're expensive. A bubble gets you there just fine.
They are expensive, but worth it to me. Bubbles take a little bit of time to settle properly and require me to focus elsewhere to see them, meaning I ignore them a lot. I don't have that problem with electronic levels and the neat piece of fiber optic that puts it directly in my peripheral.
2. Levels are stupid inside 1000 because it takes a lot of cant to be off, and we can determine level well enough naturally.
Yes we can determine level under good circumstances. Maybe not so much on extremely canted ground, out of plumb t-posts, and under a time crunch, with that last one being most important to me. I'm also not particularly interested in something as stupid as not having my rifle level add to the error stackup I already have to manage. If I can eliminate it and get an extra tenth of target budget back, I'm game.
Personally, I put a Send-It & a Brandt Built setup on all my comp guns and I hit more targets. Plenty of other people do it differently and it works for them. This works for me.
I'm curious if a similar study done with only one eye open (such as looking through a scope) would have different results. Can't say it would or wouldn't, but would be interesting to see if it got better or worse, if there was a change at all.Studies suggest humans can detect vertical level at less than 2 degrees of mean accuracy. I put levels on my guns but I think humans are very capable of detecting level accuracy to shoot without them and rarely use mine while shooting.
Cite:
Subjective Visual Vertical in Various Vestibular Disorders by Using a Simple Bucket Test - PMC
Subjective Visual Vertical (S.V.V.) assesses the ability to perceive verticality which depends on visual, vestibular and somatosensory inputs. The judgment of verticality is altered when there is otolith dysfunction. Objective of our study was to ...
My experience tells me it would be worse, but that's a sample size of one, and also probably why I'm just an ok shooter.
This study specifically isolates the line to be leveled inside their "bucket test" to assess their sample population for improvement based on their treatments. As it doesn't account for confounding factors like multiple deceptive planes and other visual and physical variables that would exist in the shooting environments we're discussing, I wouldn't say this is an appropriate study to support rejecting the use of rifle mounted levels.
That may be true and I’m not disputing that - but he specifically said you need a reference to assess level which is very counter to what the study found.
Clearly it's lost on you that only 1 eye looks through the scope, therefore only 1 eye sees the reticle. Which is the thing we're talking about being level.
I know you shoot one eye closed, it’s okay.
go tilt a picture in your house and close one eye and see if you can tell its not level. I have no idea why you’d think that’s not possible…..
Where’s frank? He’s way more anti level than I am. I’m just suggesting it’s not necessary in most situations because humans are really good at detecting level
I'm convinced people reignite the level debate every so often because they're bored....
I have no issue with my Send-It.
- Battery life has never been an issue
- Zeroing is simple
- Colors are simple to interpret
- Lots of accessories and mounting methods that work for both right and left-handed shooters
