Hunting & Fishing Cayuga" Hunting Bullets

#101
Understood. PVA is in southeastern PA which is pretty low elevation I believe.

Starting to wonder if Coldboremiracle helped with the BC testing of these. He did the terminal testing. He is in UT which would make a difference.
 
#102
The 151's will kill elk just fine. I wouldn't think it would be worth the brain damage chasing something that wants to keyhole. Seems like even if it did stabilize it would be on the ragged edge. FWIW, Ive watched a lot of elk fall victim to copper 130 class bullets in that same speed range.
 
#103
zeroz said:
The 151's will kill elk just fine. I wouldn't think it would be worth the brain damage chasing something that wants to keyhole. Seems like even if it did stabilize it would be on the ragged edge. FWIW, Ive watched a lot of elk fall victim to copper 130 class bullets in that same speed range.
Click to expand...
Sure they will, but when I ordered the 151s were not available, so I got the 170s to try out. The G7 is quite remarkable and irresistable, if accurate. Oh well. I should get the 151s in a few days, and I'm sure I can make them sing.

In the meantime, since I have my own range and I finished up my early spring fieldwork, I loaded up 5 more 170s for the heck of it. I developed brain damage at a very young age and have dutifully maintained it.... This time I used a healthy dose of Magpro and squeezed out 2950fps at the top end. Like I thought, it didn't matter. 3-inch splatter group. Now I have 40 170s left to take up space on the shelf, lol.
 
#104
@bohem

Hi Josh,
A number of took our chances on the 170 cayugas with 1:8 barrels without success. Would you be willing to update the website to say "use 7.5 twist" (delete the 1:8 info), or clarify the DA needed to achieve stability with a 1:8.

Thanks.
 
#106
Conrad said:
@bohem

Hi Josh,
A number of took our chances on the 170 cayugas with 1:8 barrels without success. Would you be willing to update the website to say "use 7.5 twist" (delete the 1:8 info), or clarify the DA needed to achieve stability with a 1:8.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
That's a good idea, can you give me some more data on what you are shooting?

What's the DA you're running in and having problems? Jeff did a bunch of testing on the 151's and 170's but I tested them here at 500-700 DA and had no trouble at 700 yards. All the data we publish is tested as close to 0 DA as I can get, which is usually not hard to accomplish in late spring and late fall. In the summer my ranges are usually around 2000-2500 DA and Jeff's are a lot higher.

I know they fly in winter here out of a 7.7tw 7mm and that was about -1500 DA that day.

Are you sure you have actual 1:8's and not something labeled as an 8 but it's really about 8.1-8.15? I pulled out what little hair I have left last summer for a guy who had something labeled as an 8 and when we checked it we got almost 8.5, turns out it was an 8.4 that was improperly marked.
 
#107
Conrad said:
Hey Bud,

I have the same barrel on my 7 PRC, and the 170's did not stabilize for me either. I recall being over 2800, but I don't think I progressed through my charges too far because they were keyholing. I may need to revisit a higher charge--that said In my opinion you took it plenty fast enough to achieve stability per PVA. I like PVA, but I think they should add some cushion to their recommendations as we have no way of validating our true twist until the barrel is bought.

Per PVA on the 170: "*The average BC was measured using 8tw 5R rifled barrels and being shot at approximately 2740fps. Different rifling geometry and muzzle velocity will affect the BC in a nominal manner."

They go on to recommend 7.5 for optimal BC, but they make the customer believe an 8 will achieve stability at a relatively low velocity--and then say, no refunds. They need to straight up say use a 7.5.
Click to expand...
Can you email me the exact data on your rifle ? josh@patriotvalleyarms.com
I do my best to give the best fidelity data I can provide, not padded data to account for fluff in other company products. That's how the industry has taught people "well the box says 7 twist required but my buddy shot them fine in an 8 so it should be good right?"

If we have a problem with the 170's then I will certainly address it but if you have a slow barrel twist that's unfortunately not something I can do anything about.
 
#108
bohem said:
That's a good idea, can you give me some more data on what you are shooting?

What's the DA you're running in and having problems? Jeff did a bunch of testing on the 151's and 170's but I tested them here at 500-700 DA and had no trouble at 700 yards. All the data we publish is tested as close to 0 DA as I can get, which is usually not hard to accomplish in late spring and late fall. In the summer my ranges are usually around 2000-2500 DA and Jeff's are a lot higher.

I know they fly in winter here out of a 7.7tw 7mm and that was about -1500 DA that day.

Are you sure you have actual 1:8's and not something labeled as an 8 but it's really about 8.1-8.15? I pulled out what little hair I have left last summer for a guy who had something labeled as an 8 and when we checked it we got almost 8.5, turns out it was an 8.4 that was improperly marked.
Click to expand...

I had to do some digging on my notes, but it looks like I was around +3000 DA and took them over 2900 fps. I will try to verify my actual twist in a little while.

Thanks.
 
#109
bohem said:
Can you email me the exact data on your rifle ? josh@patriotvalleyarms.com
I do my best to give the best fidelity data I can provide, not padded data to account for fluff in other company products. That's how the industry has taught people "well the box says 7 twist required but my buddy shot them fine in an 8 so it should be good right?"

If we have a problem with the 170's then I will certainly address it but if you have a slow barrel twist that's unfortunately not something I can do anything about.
Click to expand...
Took a couple measurements to make sure my process was good. Rifling engaged, rod spinning as soon as I started to push, lubed bearings etc.

Looks to be right at 8. Most of my measurements were 8 or barely under. Had one at 8-1/16 but that was before I lubed bearings as this rod sat in the garage a bit.

Camera is centered so it makes it look like lines are inside of 8 on either end but it’s actually pretty dead on to just a hair under 8.

IMG_1910.jpeg
 
#111
deputyrpa said:
The DA when I was shooting was close to zero. 12.2C @29.92Hg @156 MSL. My Proof barrel is a true 1:8, as I measured and confirmed it as soon as I got it.
Click to expand...
Conrad said:
Took a couple measurements to make sure my process was good. Rifling engaged, rod spinning as soon as I started to push, lubed bearings etc.

Looks to be right at 8. Most of my measurements were 8 or barely under. Had one at 8-1/16 but that was before I lubed bearings as this rod sat in the garage a bit.

Camera is centered so it makes it look like lines are inside of 8 on either end but it’s actually pretty dead on to just a hair under 8.
Click to expand...
Hmmm sounds like we have some sort of larger issue here then, that's good info. Thank you.
 
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#114
Quick Update:
I took out some 170's this morning and shot them to just inside 700yards and didn't have problems with repeatability on steel. I didn't have an issue with a known 8 twist, however it seems there's something happening here that is causing some people issues with this particular bullet.

I made some tweaks today to increase the stability about 6% and I'm making some prototypes (likely) tomorrow. I will test some here as well as send a few off to @Conrad to test in his rifle since it's one of the guns having problems. I will pass along results.
 
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