DT or AI for LE

B4forever · Jul 16, 2021

Sorry about all the acronyms in the title! Anyways, I’m in the market for a new precision rifle for LE/SWAT work. I’ve got my choice narrowed down to a Accuracy International AT-LE (.308 w/16.5” barrel) or a Desert Tech SRS-M2 (.308 w/22” barrel). The rifle chosen will be ran suppressed with Hornady 168gr match, and will see a significant amount of tripod time. I’ve had hands on time with an SRS-A1 and several AI’s but haven’t shot either. The features I’m looking for are:
-1/2 moa or better with factory ammo
-reliable
-factory support for the foreseeable future
-NV capable
-ARCA capable (will have to be aftermarket for the AI)
-portable
-adaptable for different shooters

In an LE context (Short range precision/positional work) what would you chose and why?

W54/XM-388 · Jul 16, 2021

Top choice would be a rifle from Mike at Tactical Operations.
Second choice would be an Accuracy International rifle.

Chasing3 · Jul 16, 2021

AI AT, I run the same package you won’t be disappointed and Mile High provides great customer service if you need their help.

hafejd30 · Jul 16, 2021

AIAT

The AT I own is a absolute workhorse. If your needing to adapt to multiple shooters the AT will have a more traditional feel/comfort. Not that a DT won’t be comfortable but it seems the bull pups have some who particularly don’t fit them well or have issues operating the bolt (big guy/long arms etc)

The couple bull pups I’ve held (not DT) feel ok but my AT just feels like an extension of my body when behind it. Your results may vary

powdahound76 · Jul 16, 2021

W54/XM-388 said:
Top choice would be a rifle from Mike at Tactical Operations.
Second choice would be an Accuracy International rifle.

Either of these would be solid options.

Looky here to get your motor running!!

Tac Ops / Manners TF3A Folder!

ON BEHALF OF MIKE RESCIGNO, I'D LIKE TO GIVE A BIG SHOUTOUT TO TOM MANNERS! As anyone who has spoken with Tom knows, Tom Manners is a true gentleman and a class act. Tac Ops just completed a project for a special operator based on a MCS TF3A Folding Stock. The particulars of said rifle are...

www.snipershide.com

st1650 · Jul 16, 2021

I sold my AI to get a Desert Tech but if I had to shoot a 308 as a LE I’d go with an AI. Unless you need something extremely compact.

AI is a more rugged product. No question about it.

kthomas · Jul 16, 2021

Tac Ops.

RRW · Jul 16, 2021

For LE work? AT-LE hands down. The DT is compact for sure but a bullpup in my opinion is a hinderance as a work gun. Our work rifles have 20" barrels and have not been an issue even when deploying in a vehicle hide. The biggest issue when deploying with a DT for example would be if you have to deploy from the weak side. We don't live in a perfect world and sometimes depending on the situation, the position picks you and you don't get to choose the position. You could also be there for an extended amount of time. On a square range a bullpup will work if you can get comfortable but get behind it shooting weak side for an extended amount of time on an operational call and tell me how it worked out.

Winny94 · Jul 16, 2021

Having owned both, ill tell ya they're not very comparable. Both very good in their ballgame, but definitely different ballgames.
If reliability is a key feature, AI hands down.
If long term factory support is key, AI hands down
If absolute compactness is key, DT.
Accuracy? Wash

KML7201 · Jul 16, 2021

AI. I used a 16.5” AT with a TBAC Ultra 7. Nice setup.

BLKWLFK9 · Jul 16, 2021

I love my AI and would never NOT suggest getting one, but tacops xray makes my downstairs parts wiggle.

dms416 · Jul 16, 2021

Accuracy International all the way for LE.
I used my own AW and AX before we fully committed to AI. Tikka TacA1 is our low-cost alternative.
Folding stock with LOP and cheek piece adjustment.
Simple, reliable 2-stage trigger
Unsurpassed action/mag feeding
NV ready
ARCA/RRS adapters available at minimal cost.

W54/XM-388 said:
Top choice would be a rifle from Mike at Tactical Operations.

There's too many features to list that are standard on the AI, DTA and even the Tikka that suited for LE work that "legacy" sniper rifles aren't and have to be retro-fitted. Tac Ops are fine rifles, but now that LE are starting to get a clue about what they need, they've gone past that type of rifle.

Chasing3 · Jul 16, 2021

For dept cost, AI is the way to go. Swapping barrels and the cost savings after initial purchase is a huge.

W54/XM-388 · Jul 16, 2021

dms416 said:
There's too many features to list that are standard on the AI, DTA and even the Tikka that suited for LE work that "legacy" sniper rifles aren't and have to be retro-fitted. Tac Ops are fine rifles, but now that LE are starting to get a clue about what they need, they've gone past that type of rifle.

I might suggest you check with @Terry Cross to see if he thinks TacOps rifles are no longer relevant.
Last I heard Mike was still booked solid with LE and GOV contracts for his rifles.

dms416 · Jul 16, 2021

W54/XM-388 said:
I might suggest you check with @Terry Cross to see if he thinks TacOps rifles are no longer relevant.
Last I heard Mike was still booked solid with LE and GOV contracts for his rifles.

Good for them. And...I never used the term "irrelevant".
But when we need a rifle, we need it NOW. I can have one, two, five rifles even en route from Mile High or Euro tomorrow.
Can I throw in another bolt/barrel and have it headspace like I can an AI? Can I swap barrels with no down time (i.e. waiting in a long queue?).
That does not bode well for my rural county when bigger LE and Gov are getting serviced and my sole rifle make is "booked solid".

Lots of dudes out there doing good work with shit that ain't AI, Tac Ops, GAP or whatever. Logistics is indeed a major factor. If starting from scratch, one would be a FOOL not to consider that.

W54/XM-388 · Jul 16, 2021

dms416 said:
Good for them. And...I never used the term "irrelevant".
But when we need a rifle, we need it NOW. I can have one, two, five rifles even en route from Mile High or Euro tomorrow.
Can I throw in another bolt/barrel and have it headspace like I can an AI? Can I swap barrels with no down time (i.e. waiting in a long queue?).
That does not bode well for my rural county when bigger LE and Gov are getting serviced and my sole rifle make is "booked solid".

Lots of dudes out there doing good work with shit that ain't AI, Tac Ops, GAP or whatever. Logistics is indeed a major factor. If starting from scratch, one would be a FOOL not to consider that.

Accuracy International does make very good rifles (I have several), and being able to mix and match parts yourself is something they do better than just about anybody else, and yes if you want something right now as opposed to in 6 months, AI definitely has the edge there.

jlficken · Jul 16, 2021

AI AT-LE no question.

I had a SRS A1 but sold it a month ago. I don't miss it. I'll never sell my AI AT though.

They just simply aren't in the same league in any area except for accuracy.

ETA: SRS mags are complete and utter garbage compared to the AW mag design. My SRS mags were a pain to load and cut I to the case rim until I filed them down a bit. They are also a pain to load into the rifle. Also, being able to top load the AW magazine is a HUGE advantage.

Terry Cross · Jul 16, 2021

I'm not gunning for any business in this thread because the OP asked specifically about A.I. and D.T.
I do not supply either brand so I am specifically excluded from that hunt. However,

Respectfully, I would like to add my opinion in reply to your comments.

dms416 said:
But when we need a rifle, we need it NOW. I can have one, two, five rifles even en route from Mile High or Euro tomorrow.

Seriously?
I would think it exceptionally rare that anyone in L.E. wakes up one day and suddenly needs 1 to 5 new rifles tomorrow.
That sounds like poor planning.

My experience has been that almost all L.E. purchases for major assets like firearms (even only 1 or 2) usually take months or even years to budget, steal from other funds, get grants, etc. I have lost a lot of L.E. bids and business in the last 35 years but I cannot recall the reason ever being delivery or because they had to have rifles tomorrow. Shit I just delivered rifles to an agency that had been working on funding for 3 years.

dms416 said:
Can I throw in another bolt/barrel and have it headspace like I can an AI? Can I swap barrels with no down time (i.e. waiting in a long queue?).
That does not bode well for my rural county when bigger LE and Gov are getting serviced and my sole rifle make is "booked solid".

Extra bolts? Really?
Yes. Yes you can. All of the SENTINEL (by Defiance) bolts headspace within a thousandth of each other. I'm sure other shops out there can say the same of whatever action they build their guns around.

Extra barrels?
Yes. Yes you can. I have sent spare barrels ready to spin on (especially for customer's out of country where shipping/import/export is not practical). I actually rebarrel more L.E. rifles from previous deliveries than barrel new rifles each year and can have the work done without the action in hand.

Even the agencies that do not keep spare barrels (almost all do not) know when a rifle is getting long in the tooth and starting to need a new barrel. It usually doesn't sneak up on anybody unless they are not using log books and/or keeping shitty records.

All L.E./govt. work stays at the front of my schedule even the smallest ones.

dms416 said:
Lots of dudes out there doing good work with shit that ain't AI, Tac Ops, GAP or whatever. Logistics is indeed a major factor. If starting from scratch, one would be a FOOL not to consider that.

Logistics can be covered with proper planning.

Accuracy International and D.T. are fine rifles and have a proven track record so you will not get me to bad mouth either.
I am however of the opinion based on personal experience that your above concerns are only concerns if you make them so.

Your other opinion about "legacy" rifles and L.E. finally getting a clue..... moving past "that type of rifle" is interesting as well.

I don't think the KMW SENTINEL rifles are considered legacy rifles. JMHO but I am prolly biased as fuck.
They have internal chassis instead of bedding, forward NV mount capability, bolt and barrel swap capability, fully adjustable stock, 5 flush cup hardpoints, integral scope base, one piece bolt, M16 style extractors and all weather surface finishes. You can fall down the stairs on top of it and still have a functioning and zeroed rifle when you get up. Maybe it is still a Legacy rifle in some peoples minds.

I am involved with L.E. specific PMO training from coast to coast every year through 1MilRight. While I definitely don't know it all and definitely don't have my finger on the pulse of every agency I do stay very cozy with a lot of alphabet federal agencies, state agencies, etc.

I can tell you that the current crop of L.E. professionals definitely have a clue, have had a clue and are working hard to stay ready. Some agencies, and your area may have some, are truly late bloomers and trying to finally get up to speed but they are the minority.

Just my 2 cents to add some balance.

./

kthomas · Jul 16, 2021

dms416 said:
Good for them. And...I never used the term "irrelevant".
But when we need a rifle, we need it NOW. I can have one, two, five rifles even en route from Mile High or Euro tomorrow.
Can I throw in another bolt/barrel and have it headspace like I can an AI? Can I swap barrels with no down time (i.e. waiting in a long queue?).
That does not bode well for my rural county when bigger LE and Gov are getting serviced and my sole rifle make is "booked solid".

Lots of dudes out there doing good work with shit that ain't AI, Tac Ops, GAP or whatever. Logistics is indeed a major factor. If starting from scratch, one would be a FOOL not to consider that.

Sounds more like poor logistics on the agencies end.

@MikeRTacOps takes care of his people and the agencies he services. If you aren't aware of that, then you've never had the pleasure of dealing with TacOps.

jlficken · Jul 16, 2021

dms416 said:
Accuracy International all the way for LE.
I used my own AW and AX before we fully committed to AI. Tikka TacA1 is our low-cost alternative.
Folding stock with LOP and cheek piece adjustment.
Simple, reliable 2-stage trigger
Unsurpassed action/mag feeding
NV ready
ARCA/RRS adapters available at minimal cost.

There's too many features to list that are standard on the AI, DTA and even the Tikka that suited for LE work that "legacy" sniper rifles aren't and have to be retro-fitted. Tac Ops are fine rifles, but now that LE are starting to get a clue about what they need, they've gone past that type of rifle.

I've always thought the TacOps rifles looked nice but I just don't understand their cost given their features compared to something like an AI which I can have in my hands the next day.

schmi015 · Jul 16, 2021

jlficken said:
I've always thought the TacOps rifles looked nice but I just don't understand their cost given their features compared to something like an AI which I can have in my hands the next day.

I traded into one…the most accurate rifle I own. I think they’re guaranteed 1/4moa with FGMM and this thing shoots better than that.

kthomas · Jul 16, 2021

jlficken said:
I've always thought the TacOps rifles looked nice but I just don't understand their cost given their features compared to something like an AI which I can have in my hands the next day.

There's a lot of details and work that go into TacOps rifles that simply aren't being done on other rifles.

Some people don't want, need or can appreciate those details, and I get that. Everyone has different goals, objectives and constraints for their rifles, and thankfully there's a lot of great options out there to fill the many different needs and desires.

ChidJ · Jul 16, 2021

I have no LE experience, I've never owned an AI, I have no idea how SWAT snipers are employed so my opinion doesn't matter much. That being said, I'm gonna throw some thoughts out here and see if anything sticks. I have been running the SRSA2 for a year now though so, I'm basically an expert (sarcasm).

First off is weight. The AI is way heavier. That may be a good thing in some instances but not all. You can always add weight. Harder to cut weight.

AI is larger, bigger footprint. No doubt it can be effectively used from/in/out of a vehicle but once again, smaller would be better.

There's no arguing that AI has a long and proven reliability track record. That said, the SRS has proven reliable for me. And, given that the AI is twice as expensive, you could get two SRSs and just bring both in case one goes down haha.

I have no idea how easy the AI barrel/caliber swap is or if the AT-LE can go up to the long action magnums but the SRS is super easy even to go up to bigger calibers. Could be done by an ape in short order. This might come in handy if an escaped circus elephant starts trampling traffic during quitting time in your locale

Lastly, SRS is an American design built by Americans. That's worth something to me. Even if they are allegedly associated with a kvlt.

As @jlficken said, the SRS magazines are unfortunately crude given how expensive they are but they have proven quite reliable for me. Mine have been full of Georgia coastal sand and Cascade Mountain moon dust at this point and they kept running. They remind me of AK mags... Except I could buy 10 AK mags for the same price.

Mainly playing devils advocate here. Bored at work. Why is the MRAD not in the conversation?

dms416 · Jul 17, 2021

@Terry Cross

Well, I wouldn’t have believed the stupid bullshit agencies do had I not lived it myself.
Most failures to plan where budgetary and money related (saving for that Bearcat). Always trying to squeeze every penny. Couple more months out of that barrel….or “this cs is only 1 year expired, we can still use that”

If you’d believe it, we could not re-barrel out 40xbs as some admin were afraid of a non factory gun because of the liability boogeyman. A GAP rebarrel was unacceptable to them. Is it stupid? Absolutely but this was something that happened.

Hopefully these are one off and my ACTUAL experiences with this dumbfuckery in LE are isolated but from what I’ve seen from peers, it isn’t.

B4forever · Jul 17, 2021

Thank you for all the reply’s. My current setup is a FN SPRA1 that’s had a bit of work done to it (Bedding, NV rail, threading). I would consider it a “Legacy” rifle. No doubt Tac Ops and Terry Cross both build phenomenal rifles but I’m unsure if either have made arrangements for their businesses to continue when they (Mike and Terry) decide to retire. Sounds like I’ve got an AI in my future. Anybody got a compelling reason not to run the 16.5” barrel (20” is optional)? It’ll wear a Sig SRD 762 direct thread.

Terry Cross · Jul 17, 2021

@dms416 Yes sir! I believe it. When you are the one stuck in that twilight zone the ride isn't fun. Hang in there and be the catalyst for education and change eventually.

Work safe sir.

./

Terry Cross · Jul 17, 2021

B4forever said:
Thank you for all the reply’s. My current setup is a FN SPRA1 that’s had a bit of work done to it (Bedding, NV rail, threading). I would consider it a “Legacy” rifle. No doubt Tac Ops and Terry Cross both build phenomenal rifles but I’m unsure if either have made arrangements for their businesses to continue when they (Mike and Terry) decide to retire. Sounds like I’ve got an AI in my future. Anybody got a compelling reason not to run the 16.5” barrel (20” is optional)? It’ll wear a Sig SRD 762 direct thread.

16.5 inch guns are the bomb when suppressed. Done a bunch and the users are very happy.

As a "cover my customer's ass" move I made a contingency plan several years ago. If an asteroid falls on KMW tomorrow I have arraingements with 2 very capable shops outside my area that would service KMW customer's.

No business is immune to issues. Damned near every big name rifle company from HK to Remington has been bankrupt, sold, reorganized, etc at one time or the other. I owe it to my agencies to have them covered.

./

B4forever · Jul 17, 2021

Well you’ve certainly made a compelling argument for a KMW rifle! Thank you for making my decision more difficult.

st1650 · Jul 17, 2021

B4forever said:
Thank you for all the reply’s. My current setup is a FN SPRA1 that’s had a bit of work done to it (Bedding, NV rail, threading). I would consider it a “Legacy” rifle. No doubt Tac Ops and Terry Cross both build phenomenal rifles but I’m unsure if either have made arrangements for their businesses to continue when they (Mike and Terry) decide to retire. Sounds like I’ve got an AI in my future. Anybody got a compelling reason not to run the 16.5” barrel (20” is optional)? It’ll wear a Sig SRD 762 direct thread.

16.5”

The extra 4” gives you nothing in 308 at typical LE engagement distances. It’s barely 100 FPS difference for fgmm 168 and 175. Especially if you plan to add a can.

tacops1 · Jul 17, 2021

I have known Mike @ Tacops for years now …… he’s one of the greatest people ever…. World class customer service…. Product well they shoot in the zeros so if your the best so is your stick. Now with all this being said …. The wait…… civilians do wait and it’s whatever it is he’s upfront ….. sometimes agencies who are put ahead of civilians have some build time …..but Mike can always accommodate for real world agency needs when the funds are presented upfront, lots of times government plays stupid games ! Call him and you won’t be disappointed, but the guy is no nonsense , if your agency can pay fast you’ll have a rifle fast! Period! But always remember don’t rush perfection too much his rifles are working tools and as I like to say functional Art. There’s a reason many tactical folks use em And it will out shoot all your acronyms period at the end of the day if you are capable. It’s like this do you need a gun in zeroes ? Well I don’t know. But if you want the best you pay for that & everything else he does he can explain that. But if you want a .40’s-.50 out the box Gun next day for approx $5,000 well then that’s for you. Not that there anything wrong with those other rifles. Spend some time on the phone with Mike and you will prob get one. But the additional funds for the tacops over the others listed is well worth it. Like HK says ,”NO COMPROMISE”! I compare it to drag racing. Built a car like a mustang and drop ehhhhh I dunno let’s just 10k in it run 11.0 1/4 mile and you wanna go faster. To get faster you gotta pay to play. To get just a little bit more faster than before costs a f_ck ton more money. Want a sniper gun under 1/4” and capable of a rag hole them 4-5k Guns become 6-8k Guns thanks and best of luck

with your new choice of sniper rifle whatever that will be & stay safe. But before you buy call mike

by the way his 18” is the bomb

BurtGummer · Jul 17, 2021

Ai.

dt is awesome accurate and compact but not as dead nuts reliable as AI

RRW · Jul 17, 2021

kthomas said:
There's a lot of details and work that go into TacOps rifles that simply aren't being done on other rifles.

Some people don't want, need or can appreciate those details, and I get that. Everyone has different goals, objectives and constraints for their rifles, and thankfully there's a lot of great options out there to fill the many different needs and desires.

Let me start off by saying I think Tac Ops rifles are exceptional and the attention to detail that Mike puts into his work is second to none. There was a guy on my Sniper Crse that had an issued Tac Ops and it shot very well, especially with FGMM which it was built around.
Again the op asked about a rifle for LE work. I know you have mentioned in previous threads you own a Tac Ops and obviously think highly of it based on your comments.
Have you ever deployed with it in a LE Sniper capacity? Times change and the days of LE Snipers deploying with 168 gr FGMM as their duty round thankfully are becoming history. Sure it's accurate, especially at LE engagement distances but the 168 SMK was designed but for shooting paper. Especially in an urban environment you are likely to encounter some barrier and if you have ever shot FGMM through glass you will quickly find out it's far from ideal. I can tell you from experience and seen it with my own eyes that the accuracy of the Tac Ops shooting the 165 gr Federal Tactical Bonded round which at that time was a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (now the tipped version) which was no more accurate than any of the other rifles that were used on the crse. I would not be deploying using FGMM so it may shoot tiny groups on paper but on a call would be using an appropriate barrier or open air round. Experience has shown the the 168 SMK is not optional for either. There is better mission specific ammunition these days. Again any of the Tac Ops rifles are exceptional especially with FGMM and I am sure shoot other ammunition better suited for task good as well. The op asked about a rifle for LE work and years ago when FGMM was the go to duty ammo I think there was a difference for sure but these days, not so much.

W54/XM-388 · Jul 17, 2021

RRW said:
Let me start off by saying I think Tac Ops rifles are exceptional and the attention to detail that Mike puts into his work is second to none. There was a guy on my Sniper Crse that had an issued Tac Ops and it shot very well, especially with FGMM which it was built around.
Again the op asked about a rifle for LE work. I know you have mentioned in previous threads you own a Tac Ops and obviously think highly of it based on your comments.
Have you ever deployed with it in a LE Sniper capacity? Times change and the days of LE Snipers deploying with 168 gr FGMM as their duty round thankfully are becoming history. Sure it's accurate, especially at LE engagement distances but the 168 SMK was designed but for shooting paper. Especially in an urban environment you are likely to encounter some barrier and if you have ever shot FGMM through glass you will quickly find out it's far from ideal. I can tell you from experience and seen it with my own eyes that the accuracy of the Tac Ops shooting the 165 gr Federal Tactical Bonded round which at that time was a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (now the tipped version) which was no more accurate than any of the other rifles that were used on the crse. I would not be deploying using FGMM so it may shoot tiny groups on paper but on a call would be using an appropriate barrier or open air round. Experience has shown the the 168 SMK is not optional for either. There is better mission specific ammunition these days. Again any of the Tac Ops rifles are exceptional especially with FGMM and I am sure shoot other ammunition better suited for task good as well. The op asked about a rifle for LE work and years ago when FGMM was the go to duty ammo I think there was a difference for sure but these days, not so much.

If you are going to buy a new TacOps rifle, particularly if you are getting one in 6.5CM talk with Mike about what ammo they are now using and building the rifles around. You'll find the rifles are being built around some very capable ammunition for ending a threat with one well placed shot.

st1650 · Jul 17, 2021

RRW said:
Let me start off by saying I think Tac Ops rifles are exceptional and the attention to detail that Mike puts into his work is second to none. There was a guy on my Sniper Crse that had an issued Tac Ops and it shot very well, especially with FGMM which it was built around.
Again the op asked about a rifle for LE work. I know you have mentioned in previous threads you own a Tac Ops and obviously think highly of it based on your comments.
Have you ever deployed with it in a LE Sniper capacity? Times change and the days of LE Snipers deploying with 168 gr FGMM as their duty round thankfully are becoming history. Sure it's accurate, especially at LE engagement distances but the 168 SMK was designed but for shooting paper. Especially in an urban environment you are likely to encounter some barrier and if you have ever shot FGMM through glass you will quickly find out it's far from ideal. I can tell you from experience and seen it with my own eyes that the accuracy of the Tac Ops shooting the 165 gr Federal Tactical Bonded round which at that time was a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (now the tipped version) which was no more accurate than any of the other rifles that were used on the crse. I would not be deploying using FGMM so it may shoot tiny groups on paper but on a call would be using an appropriate barrier or open air round. Experience has shown the the 168 SMK is not optional for either. There is better mission specific ammunition these days. Again any of the Tac Ops rifles are exceptional especially with FGMM and I am sure shoot other ammunition better suited for task good as well. The op asked about a rifle for LE work and years ago when FGMM was the go to duty ammo I think there was a difference for sure but these days, not so much.

Out of curiosity, is the Fed LE308T1 165 pretty much the LE choice for barrier blind ? What about fusion MSR 150 or TAP 165 GMX ?

kthomas · Jul 17, 2021

RRW said:
Let me start off by saying I think Tac Ops rifles are exceptional and the attention to detail that Mike puts into his work is second to none. There was a guy on my Sniper Crse that had an issued Tac Ops and it shot very well, especially with FGMM which it was built around.
Again the op asked about a rifle for LE work. I know you have mentioned in previous threads you own a Tac Ops and obviously think highly of it based on your comments.
Have you ever deployed with it in a LE Sniper capacity? Times change and the days of LE Snipers deploying with 168 gr FGMM as their duty round thankfully are becoming history. Sure it's accurate, especially at LE engagement distances but the 168 SMK was designed but for shooting paper. Especially in an urban environment you are likely to encounter some barrier and if you have ever shot FGMM through glass you will quickly find out it's far from ideal. I can tell you from experience and seen it with my own eyes that the accuracy of the Tac Ops shooting the 165 gr Federal Tactical Bonded round which at that time was a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (now the tipped version) which was no more accurate than any of the other rifles that were used on the crse. I would not be deploying using FGMM so it may shoot tiny groups on paper but on a call would be using an appropriate barrier or open air round. Experience has shown the the 168 SMK is not optional for either. There is better mission specific ammunition these days. Again any of the Tac Ops rifles are exceptional especially with FGMM and I am sure shoot other ammunition better suited for task good as well. The op asked about a rifle for LE work and years ago when FGMM was the go to duty ammo I think there was a difference for sure but these days, not so much.

The beauty of a custom rifle is that it can be made to shoot any ammo precisely.

Factory rifles? Not so much...

If you have specific requirements to shoot specific ammo, I'm sure custom rifle manufacturers such as @MikeRTacOps can handle that.

Factory rifles such as AI have less flexibility in such matters.

tacops1 · Jul 17, 2021

Know this…. Now that you all brought these police swat sniper things up…. From using data from an overly qualified SEB team in Cali who prob does more ops than most agencies in the United States a year over 200++++…… yes fed match is fine but they moved away from it awhile ago due to over penetration and a few other things….. the new federal tactical tip match king round performs awesome and out of tacops rifles shoots even better than fed match …… food for thought and has awesome ballistic qualities too

cheers! If you wanna know about rounds tacops rifles etc call mike

Terry Cross · Jul 17, 2021

st1650 said:
Out of curiosity, is the Fed LE308T1 165 pretty much the LE choice for barrier blind ? What about fusion MSR 150 or TAP 165 GMX ?

The T2 is the most widely used.

The RUAG Tactical is the pinnacle of barrier rounds in 308 but less widely fielded.

./

st1650 · Jul 17, 2021

Terry Cross said:
The T2 is the most widely used.

The RUAG Tactical is the pinnacle of barrier rounds in 308 but less widely fielded.

./

The RUAG stuff is the 164 gr right ? Cause it ain’t cheap.

RRW · Jul 17, 2021

st1650 said:
The RUAG stuff is the 164 gr right ? Cause it ain’t cheap.

The RUAG Tactical 308 round is 164 gr and your right it ain't cheap.

RRW · Jul 17, 2021

kthomas said:
The beauty of a custom rifle is that it can be made to shoot any ammo precisely.

Factory rifles? Not so much...

If you have specific requirements to shoot specific ammo, I'm sure custom rifle manufacturers such as @MikeRTacOps can handle that.

Factory rifles such as AI have less flexibility in such matters.

What if your issued ammo for barriers and open air are two totally different rounds. I asked if you have ever deployed in a LE sniper capacity and you just answered my question. I guarantee you will not be held back shooting an AI on a call.

st1650 · Jul 17, 2021

RRW said:
The RUAG Tactical 308 round is 164 gr and your right it ain't cheap.

Wonder if it’s a off the shelve Norma oryx bullet. Anyone ever pulled those?

Terry Cross · Jul 17, 2021

st1650 said:
Wonder if it’s a off the shelve Norma oryx bullet. Anyone ever pulled those?

It is not.
It is a purpose built mono solid.

st1650 · Jul 17, 2021

Terry Cross said:
It is not.

Figured as much. Oh well, for 1/5 of the price, the Fusion and the TBBC will do.

Terry Cross · Jul 17, 2021

st1650 said:
Figured as much. Oh well, for 1/5 of the price, the Fusion and the TBBC will do.

Performance is different.

Price is negligible since they only need to fire 2 or 3 rds of that each month or quarter.

99% of rounds fired for.quals and training would not be that round

.

st1650 · Jul 17, 2021

Terry Cross said:
Performance is different.

Price is negligible since they only need to fire 2 or 3 rds of that each month or quarter.

99% of rounds fired for.quals and training would not be that round

.

Oh I'm sure it's worth every penny for the guys on a call. It just won't fit my larping budget.
RUAG's marketing even advertise it has same (or very close) zero and ballistic as their BTHP stuff, which is pretty impressive if true.

kthomas · Jul 17, 2021

RRW said:
What if your issued ammo for barriers and open air are two totally different rounds. I asked if you have ever deployed in a LE sniper capacity and you just answered my question. I guarantee you will not be held back shooting an AI on a call.

I have never served or deployed in LE.

Though I don't understand from a precision aspect what an AI rifle can accomplish that other rifles, especially custom rifles can't.

I'm not knocking AI by any means, and I'm unsure how any of my posts in this thread can be construed as such.

By all means, if an AI fits all the requirements, then get an AI. Nothing wrong with that. I'm merely providing another alternative that's served hundreds of other alphabet agencies.

NoLegs24 · Jul 17, 2021

Terry Cross said:
The RUAG Tactical is the pinnacle of barrier rounds in 308 but less widely fielded.

./

There's a RUAG rep down in SoCal. He came by to talk to an LE class when I was there. Some of my buddies have tested it on a bearcat. They say its damn impressive.

NoLegs24 · Jul 17, 2021

kthomas said:
I have never served or deployed in LE.

Though I don't understand from a precision aspect what an AI rifle can accomplish that other rifles, especially custom rifles can't.

I'm not knocking AI by any means, and I'm unsure how any of my posts in this thread can be construed as such.

By all means, if an AI fits all the requirements, then get an AI. Nothing wrong with that. I'm merely providing another alternative that's served hundreds of other alphabet agencies.

Speaking from a more southern SoCal area (San Diego County), everytime I get to stop by at LE courses/ training, AI is just a powerhouse. Whether these classes have a dozen or two personnel (agencies from SoCal and other nearby cities in AZ, NV), that manufacter seems to be the easy favorite.

Personally, I've yet to see a Tac Ops in either. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough or just don't f*ing care for them.

To the OP, you don't need to have a specifc rifle from certain rifle builder. Cause I've seen some s* shooters make high end rifles (Tac Ops included) look like garbage.

I've got buddies down here that travel to big LE/ Mil only comps, and they typically smoke the field using neither rifles mentioned on this post.

Find a reputable gun builder, and put in the time to get better.

It's standard for LE/ Mil guys to train, only when they're told to...

kthomas · Jul 17, 2021

NoLegs24 said:
Speaking from a more southern SoCal area (San Diego County), everytime I get to stop by at LE courses/ training, AI is just a powerhouse. Whether these classes have a dozen or two personnel (agencies from SoCal and other nearby cities in AZ, NV), that manufacter seems to be the easy favorite.

Personally, I've yet to see a Tac Ops in either. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough or just don't f*ing care for them.

To the OP, you don't need to have a specifc rifle from certain rifle builder. Cause I've seen some s* shooters make high end rifles (Tac Ops included) look like garbage.

I've got buddies down here that travel to big LE/ Mil only comps, and they typically smoke the field using neither rifles mentioned on this post.

Find a reputable gun builder, and put in the time to get better.

It's standard for LE/ Mil guys to train, only when they're told to...

Not sure how my post is being interpreted as an AI bashing one...

NoLegs24 · Jul 17, 2021

kthomas said:
Not sure how my post is being interpreted as an AI bashing one...

Never said you did.

Maybe I should've just qouted your last sentence. No one is saying he hasn't supplied many agencies. But that makes it sound like a lot of guys are still running them, when I have yet to see one in the hands of a guy that's taking a course that I was at. And I'm not far away from Tac Ops.

Calling it how I see it. AI is a very strong favorite.

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