New 22 cal for varmints - What to chamber 22-250, 22-250AI, 22GT, 22 Creed?

z77280 · Aug 3, 2021

Time for a new 22 cal barrel on my Impact action for varmints. Previously ran a standard 22-250 with 50-65 grn pills with a 1:12 twist tube. Worked well for coyotes up to 400 yards and p-dogs to 600. I am toying with the idea of heavier bullets (70-90 grn) this time around to stretch my effective range out to 600-700 yards (coyotes) and would want something to punch the occasional target at 1,000 yards with 3000-3200 fps.

I would only really consider these 4 cartage options and here are my thoughts:
22-250 (standard) thoughted for longer bullets - Pros: current reloading stockpile; Cons: case maintenance
22-250 AI - Pros: increased capacity and use of current brass; Cons: fireforming, shortened brass life, brass not head stamped properly (not huge deal)
22GT - Pros: designed for heavy bullets and good brass availability; Cons: ??? Conflicting information on load data, needed twist rate, and barrel/brass life
22 Creed - Pros: designed for heavy bullets and good brass availability; Cons: reduced barrel life.

22 Dasher - NO, buddy has one. Has to run the heavies slow (2700-2800) and has to spend hours making brass (while I watch and drink beer!)

What an I missing or not thinking about? I would ultimately prefer SRP and off the shelf brass. I think the Creed is just overkill for what I am wanting and will result in a short barrel life under varmint shoot conditions. Leaning towards the 22GT in a 1:8 twist, but don't know about the speed and stabilizing the 85-90 grns.

b6graham · Aug 3, 2021

As an easy alternative to 6CM that has data with better barrel life

22LRV
6XC case necked down to 22
Cheap and very good peterson brass direct from tubb (dont have to run crap alpha or hornady)
95SMK at 37.6gr H4350 3140 (2-3gr below capacity)
I run a 7 twist 25" kreiger

spife7980 · Aug 3, 2021

22 creed in alpha brass is pretty wicked and super simple. And barrel life among all of them is going to be short comparatively speaking so might as well as go for the chosen one.

jcmullis2 · Aug 3, 2021

You didn’t mention it but how about a 22br?

S3th · Aug 3, 2021

^ 22BR would be my choice as well.

BWB · Aug 3, 2021

Another 22BR vote here. I'm running 75 ELDs @ 3230 fps out of a 24" barrel. I was up to 3300 during development, just didn't like to run there.

That said, I just built a 22" 22Creed

cause why not.

jcmullis2 · Aug 3, 2021

I’ve been interested in the 22br for a while but it’s really nice to be able to use factory ammo in a pinch. The op has everything for the 22/250 so I’d stay with that. Unless he has a friend that wants to buy or swap for the 22/250 stuff it’ll be wasted. It’s always fun working up loads for new barrels so there’s no wrong answer but using the 22/250 will save some money.

BWB · Aug 3, 2021

22-250 doesn't have a super great track record of mag feeding well. Something else to consider, depending on the platform. It can be done with some tweaking but I will never build another 22-250 that will be mag fed. YMMV

jcmullis2 · Aug 3, 2021

I’ve heard that from several other people. I’d say 22cm but I’m tired of everything creedmoor

BWB · Aug 3, 2021

I know...but 75's in the high 3K area is going to be SO fun on yotes.

Edds · Aug 3, 2021

BWB said:
22-250 doesn't have a super great track record of mag feeding well. Something else to consider, depending on the platform. It can be done with some tweaking but I will never build another 22-250 that will be mag fed. YMMV

Potsy · Aug 3, 2021

For the OP, I’d say .22 creed.

I have a 15lb .22 BR and I love it, but next go round on a lighter rifle, I’m gonna .223 Ackley. It’ll run 1800fps to 650yards with 75eld’s, stay supersonic to 1100 or so, all out of a 20” barrel at 1800’asl.

The Creed is awesome, but the .223AI just seems friendly to me.

supercorndogs · Aug 4, 2021

I have burned out a couple barrels now mag feeding 22-250s, and never had much of a problem. It was in a T3 with mini-chassis, now it in an EH1 with mini chassis.

BWB · Aug 4, 2021

supercorndogs said:
I have burned out a couple barrels now mag feeding 22-250s, and never had much of a problem. It was in a T3 with mini-chassis, now it in an EH1 with mini chassis.

What mags were you running?

fdkay · Aug 4, 2021

I would lean to the 22-250 AI for brass availability.
In a pinch, you can run factory ammo and presto, it is fireformed.
22 CM limits your brass choices.
The AI certainly has "enough" ass to do what you are looking to do, the CM has more, but an even shorter barrel life.
There is a reason the 22-250 supplanted the .220 Swift, the swift was faster for sure, but it sure ate barrels. The 22-250 is no slouch in that department either.

One thing you didn't mention is the 22-243 middlested and its variations.

supercorndogs · Aug 4, 2021

BWB said:
What mags were you running?

Magpul mostly, but I ran some in AI mags too when I was finishing out my ammo, getting ready to send it off for a re-barrel. I imagine the action matters too. I have never had much trouble getting a 700 to feed something, unless the mag was too low.

I like the 22-250, but for someone who is planning to mag feed, the 22 creed or 22-250AI make more sense to me. There is just less chances of having a problem. But since I am all st up for 22-250, I have no intentions of changing.

kthomas · Aug 4, 2021

If it was me making the decision, it would be 22BR/BRA.

If you don't care about barrel life, then 22 Creedmoor wouldn't be too difficult.

celltech · Aug 4, 2021

I *love* my .22-250 with a 8 twist barrel. It zips out 80gr ELD-Ms at 3280fps and hits amazingly hard. Go for an AI and the brass will be easy to make.

stello1001 · Aug 4, 2021

I would say 22BR or BRA. Like others mentioned, if you don't care for barrel life, go creedmoor.

jzerfoss · Aug 4, 2021

I have both 22br and 22 Creed. If you are shooting at yotes beyond 400yds I wouldn't use anything smaller than a 22 Creed. A little bit wind can turn a great shot into a wounded animal. You'll definitely want the extra horsepower the Creed provides in case that shot doesn't land perfect. If you are shooting a lot and concerned about barrel life try powders in the H4831 or slower range to get a little bit of extra life. For comparison though I get similar velocities (maybe a bit more) with my 20" 22 creed to my 22br with a 28" barrel using 88gr ELDs

supercorndogs · Aug 4, 2021

Slower powders don't make barrels last longer. H4831 is a pretty hot burning powder if memory serves me.

jzerfoss · Aug 4, 2021

supercorndogs said:
Slower powders don't make barrels last longer. H4831 is a pretty hot burning powder if memory serves me.

May not be universal but h4831 definitely helps with 6 Creed vs h4350 running mid 3000s with 115gr dtacs. I've been through enough barrels to know that for a fact. There are other factors but I've never had a barrel die before a 1100rds with h4831 and I've had multiple die before 1100rds with h4350. H1000 is definitely a barrel saver but you'll lose some velocity in shorter barrels.

Skg_Mre_Lght · Aug 4, 2021

fdkay said:
I would lean to the 22-250 AI for brass availability.
In a pinch, you can run factory ammo and presto, it is fireformed.
22 CM limits your brass choices.
The AI certainly has "enough" ass to do what you are looking to do, the CM has more, but an even shorter barrel life.
There is a reason the 22-250 supplanted the .220 Swift, the swift was faster for sure, but it sure ate barrels. The 22-250 is no slouch in that department either.

One thing you didn't mention is the 22-243 middlested and its variations.

Eh, my Swifts aren't any harder on a barrel than my 22-250s. I still prefer Swifts when sitting over a prairie dog town.

z77280 · Aug 10, 2021

Thank you all for the information.

I have looked into the BR/BRA option, and it does have merit. The downside is having to form brass, unless someone knows a supplier, and having to run spacers in the mags.

I have basically narrowed it down to sticking with the standard 22-250 with a custom thought or a BRA. Just time to think about it and pull the trigger on one.

z77280 · Aug 10, 2021

supercorndogs said:
Magpul mostly, but I ran some in AI mags too when I was finishing out my ammo, getting ready to send it off for a re-barrel. I imagine the action matters too. I have never had much trouble getting a 700 to feed something, unless the mag was too low.

I like the 22-250, but for someone who is planning to mag feed, the 22 creed or 22-250AI make more sense to me. There is just less chances of having a problem. But since I am all st up for 22-250, I have no intentions of changing.

Same here, run 1,000s of rounds through MagPul mags on a 700 action and have had very few feed issues. I had some Accurate Mags that I had to bend the lips slightly on to make run correctly.

TxWelder35 · Aug 10, 2021

Any reason to not run a valk?

KnowNothing256 · Aug 10, 2021

TxWelder35 said:
Any reason to not run a valk?

...224 Valkyrie? The cartridge that maxes out in Hornady's data at ~2750 fps with the 88gr ELDM? The OP said he wanted *more* range, not less...

jzerfoss · Aug 10, 2021

TxWelder35 said:
Any reason to not run a valk?

Because a 223 can do anything it can from a bolt gun.

chevy_man · Aug 10, 2021

22-250AI.

Fireforming can be easily done while shooting dogs. I haven't seen any issues with any AI and brass life (I do anneal before and after forming).

Easy enough to get if you forget the ammo, and you end up with more ready to go brass.

Do a 1:8 twist to push heavier if you want. It'll still eat 55's.

b6graham · Aug 10, 2021

z77280 said:
Thank you all for the information.

I have looked into the BR/BRA option, and it does have merit. The downside is having to form brass, unless someone knows a supplier, and having to run spacers in the mags.

I have basically narrowed it down to sticking with the standard 22-250 with a custom thought or a BRA. Just time to think about it and pull the trigger on one.

Forming brass isn't that bad. Run lapua and jam a little. Your fireform loads will be super accurate

MDT makes 6BR mags now too

Skunkworx · Aug 11, 2021

If you’re thinking about an 22-250ai and the thought of wasting an already short barrel life with fire forming, maybe consider a 22creed. No AI fire forming required and similar performance.

Greg Langelius * · Aug 11, 2021

My experience with the 22-250 was that it was the perfect (for me) extended distance Varmint round.

But for any sustained fire application, it was not acceptable due to rapid overheating of the barrel. Accuracy went away in a very few minutes of sustained fire.

I concluded that for all-around uses; the 223 was both adequate and optimal for the 22 caliber bore. I have only ever retired one 223 bore (from competitive shooting. For Varmints it's still doing great in my SIL's hands).

Greg

MarinePMI · Aug 11, 2021

jzerfoss said:
Because a 223 can do anything it can from a bolt gun.

Not sure I'd agree with that, from a practicality point of view . For 77gr bullets, I can easily run them in the Valkyrie (and the TGK do a number on PD's). In .223 you can also run them, but you're also at the very top of the velocity/pressure limits. It gets hot out on the prairie in the summer, so I tend to steer clear of max loads for PD'ing. The ice chest is for drinks, not ammo.

The kicker is, I can run the same load (27grs of CFE 223) in either, so it makes for an easy reloading/powder charging set up in our group of PD shooters. Just set up the Harrell's and leave it on the reloading bench for the .223 (55gr bullets) shooters and Valkyrie (77gr bullets) shooters. (That's the sweet spot IME for each of those cartridges.) Easy peasy for reloading every morning before heading out to the killing fields.

Sure you can run heavier bullets in a .223, but it was never designed for that, so it is a compromise of sorts. Whereas the Valkyrie was essentially designed for 75+gr bullets.

<shrug> JMTCW and experience....

fdkay · Aug 11, 2021

I think most folks are missing the fact that the OP has a .473 bolt face.
If he had a .384 bolt face, I would probably recommend a .22 nosler that is throated long.
It meets his requirements almost perfectly (80 grain bullet at 3100 from a 22 inch barrel), again, this is throated long and there was still room for more powder (65 sta-ball).
Brass is available from Nosler and Midway (dogtown brass, ie Nosler but cheaper), you'll get longer throat life than a 22-250/22 CM/whatever else, but I will tell you, that it will heat up, as those little bullets are squirting out there pretty good.

.22 nosler project

I had a Remington .223 sps tactical laying around that wasn't being shot. It wasn't consistent and the 1-9 twist just didn't thrill me. I got to thinking about the .22 nosler in a bolt gun. The case actually has a bit more capacity than the valkyrie. I didn't want to drop a ton of money into the...

www.snipershide.com

Birddog6424 · Aug 11, 2021

The 22BR still seems like the great option here.

I'm running 88s at around 3000fps and get 2500 rounds out of the barrel. That's 500ftlbs of energy out to 1000 yards.

You buy 6BR brass, resize it and shoot it. Easy peasy.

ma smith · Aug 11, 2021

The only thing that's holding me back from looking at 22br for a <600 yd trainer rifle, is its unknown performance in say 18-22 inch barrels vs 26 longer ones its normally associated with.

Birddog6424 · Aug 11, 2021

I ran a 22" barrel for 2600+ rounds. I just pulled it two weeks ago.

It was 2990fps at 29grs of Varget with 88gr ELDMs at .040 jump. I ran that load for the life of the barrel. It was at 2900fps when I pulled it, it was still bugholing. I never changed the load.

If I were to redo that load, I would have put the freebore at .130" and jumped the bullet .060".

The 22BR is incredibly easy mode.. its FAR more capable than 600 yards. It doesn't even go sub till 1400 yards. <1200 yards is a more realistic expectation for ringing steel.

Ballistically, the 22BR runs neck and neck with most Dasher and 6BRA loads. Its faster and flatter and always within a tenth or two in 10mph to 12mph full value wind.

jzerfoss · Aug 11, 2021

MarinePMI said:
Not sure I'd agree with that, from a practicality point of view . For 77gr bullets, I can easily run them in the Valkyrie (and the TGK do a number on PD's). In .223 you can also run them, but you're also at the very top of the velocity/pressure limits. It gets hot out on the prairie in the summer, so I tend to steer clear of max loads for PD'ing. The ice chest is for drinks, not ammo.

The kicker is, I can run the same load (27grs of CFE 223) in either, so it makes for an easy reloading/powder charging set up in our group of PD shooters. Just set up the Harrell's and leave it on the reloading bench for the .223 (55gr bullets) shooters and Valkyrie (77gr bullets) shooters. (That's the sweet spot IME for each of those cartridges.) Easy peasy for reloading every morning before heading out to the killing fields.

Sure you can run heavier bullets in a .223, but it was never designed for that, so it is a compromise of sorts. Whereas the Valkyrie was essentially designed for 75+gr bullets.

<shrug> JMTCW and experience....

I'll admit my knowledge of the Valkyrie is based off the hundreds of posts on this site and no personal experience. I'm just comparing based off the numbers I'm seeing in the reloading section and my personal experience with heavier bullets (75-88gr) in the 223. I've been running 88s for years in a 223 Wylde chamber at 2830s from at 22" and 2850s from a 26" bolt guns and I'm not seeing much better velocities (for the most part) from the Valkyrie from buttload of posts on here. Also 223 everything is more available and typically cheaper.

RFutch · Aug 11, 2021

jzerfoss said:
I'll admit my knowledge of the Valkyrie is based off the hundreds of posts on this site and no personal experience. I'm just comparing based off the numbers I'm seeing in the reloading section and my personal experience with heavier bullets (75-88gr) in the 223. I've been running 88s for years in a 223 Wylde chamber at 2830s from at 22" and 2850s from a 26" bolt guns and I'm not seeing much better velocities (for the most part) from the Valkyrie from buttload of posts on here. Also 223 everything is more available and typically cheaper.

Just curious what powder are you using?

FWIW I’m getting 2880 with 88s in a 26” Valkyrie bolt gun with Varget. When I’m done with this barrel I’m going back to a long throat 223.

jzerfoss · Aug 11, 2021

RFutch said:
Just curious what powder are you using?

FWIW I’m getting 2880 with 88s in a 26” Valkyrie bolt gun with Varget. When I’m done with this barrel I’m going back to a long throat 223.

H4895 or PP2000mr. PP2000mr gives me even higher velocities but can be a bit temp sensitive. Manson reamers has a great long throat reamer for 85.5/88s but you will need to modify accurate mags to run them from a mag.

Birddog6424 · Aug 11, 2021

I have to admit, I've had great luck with my 223 Ackley using it for a just for funnsies comp gun to a PRS trainer. I run bulk 75gr BTHPs from Hornady. Its a killer to 800 yards. I've shot steel in competitions running 80gr ELDMs out to 1200 yards.

I'm at 5000+ rounds and counting now. Its still shooting half inch groups every time I take it out. I have a replacement barrel for it, but its still killing it. I'm going to wait for it to fall off the cliff first, which it shows no signs of doing.

Kimber.204 · Aug 11, 2021

I've started playing with my .220 Thunderbolt some more recently. 29.0gr of IMR 4166 gets me over 3100fps with an 88gr ELD-M.
The Hornady 6mm Hagar brass that you use is nothing special, but it's okay and holds up if you don't run it too hot.

I just loaded up 20rds with 28.5gr of IMR-4166 to see how that does....that is the load that I going to use for my new 6BRA fireforming. If it works for the .220 TB as well then I'll throw charges for both cartridges in the Lee powder measure (it holds +/- 0.1 with IMR-4166).

Regards,
Ross

Nortex · Aug 12, 2021

I have a 22-250, 223ai and a 22 creed. The 250 hasn't been shot in probably 4yrs. I run 80gr eld in the 223ai at 2950fps and 90gr Berger or 88 eld in the creed at 3150fps. The creed can run those bullets at 3350fps but my barrel is a 7 twist so I'm playing with fire on over spinning the bullets. I have a good friend running 80gr eld in an 8 twist 22 creed at 3500fps and it's a hammer.

Hattrick · Feb 22, 2022

Hard to argue that.

Hattrick · Feb 22, 2022

A gain twist in a creed seems like the perfect answer

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New 22 cal for varmints - What to chamber 22-250, 22-250AI, 22GT, 22 Creed?

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