Rear support for bolt action rifle?

harry_x1 · Aug 14, 2021

Hi All,
I handload 338 lapua and take great care to make every bullet very precise. However, when I go out to range to test groups, I am never able to keep the back portion of rifle stable enough to my satisfaction. I generally shoot while lying down on a shooting mat. Have tried bench as well but that seems even more unstable. Are there any recommended rear shooting bags or rests that you can recommend? Only need somethign for load development. I think I am stable enough for combat accuracy, but need better stability while testing loads. Maybe it is just my excessive weight and unfit body, but am sure there are better solutions out there which I am not probably aware about. thanks for you time and assistance.

Harjeet

918v · Aug 14, 2021

I this one:

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It’s as stable as it gets

Oldmauser · Aug 14, 2021

fill it in with zircon sand. rock solid support.

harry_x1 · Aug 14, 2021

918v said:
I this one:

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Brownells has 236 SINCLAIR INTERNATIONAL products for Sale Up To 91% Off including Reloading, Tools & Cleaning, and Gear.

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It’s as stable as it gets

Thanks, but how do you control/adjust the height. It seems this bag is meant to be used when front end is on some kind of a contraption where you can adjust height …

kriller134 · Aug 14, 2021

I like my tab rear bag.

PinesAndProjectiles · Aug 14, 2021

Precision Underground will take care of you as far as bags go.
As for using it, check out some of the training videos here.

spife7980 · Aug 14, 2021

Pint sized game changer with the sand fill is my default recommendation. Especially since you aren’t using a benchrest.

But anything sand filled will be fine.

Precision Underground · Aug 14, 2021

MinnesotaMulisha said:
Precision Underground will take care of you as far as bags go.
As for using it, check out some of the training videos here.

We appreciate the rec sir!

OP, check out the video on the homepage. It’s the best we can do to show how our fill is different.

Precision Underground

Rifle Gear

precisionundergroundriflegear.com

Steel head · Aug 14, 2021

I use a precision underground bag for my 338.

johnnyvw · Aug 14, 2021

harry_x1 said:
Thanks, but how do you control/adjust the height. It seems this bag is meant to be used when front end is on some kind of a contraption where you can adjust height …

Seriously???

Gregor.Samsa · Aug 14, 2021

Precision Underground will take care of you as far as bags

Steel head said:
I use a precision underground bag for my 338.

X2! 3D bag is awesome and available in different fill weights. Very stable.

918v · Aug 14, 2021

harry_x1 said:
Thanks, but how do you control/adjust the height. It seems this bag is meant to be used when front end is on some kind of a contraption where you can adjust height …

Assuming you have a front rest or bipod, you squeeze the bottom of the ears with your support hand which causes the stock to rise and fall, changing your POA.

phlegethon · Aug 14, 2021

918v said:
Assuming you have a front rest or bipod, you squeeze the bottom of the ears with your support hand which causes the stock to rise and fall, changing your POA.

That’s pretty difficult with the large bags filled with heavy sand. Most people using them for F class or benchrest are indeed using bipods with adjustable height like the Phoenix or Joypod, or an actual rest that would have fine adjustments for both elevation and wind age. Protektor style bags don’t go well with tactical bipods.

918v · Aug 14, 2021

phlegethon said:
That’s pretty difficult with the large bags filled with heavy sand. Most people using them for F class or benchrest are indeed using bipods with adjustable height like the Phoenix or Joypod, or an actual rest that would have fine adjustments for both elevation and wind age. Protektor style bags don’t go well with tactical bipods.

The OP wants something to stabilize his rifle on the bench. It’s not difficult at all.

Reload10 · Aug 14, 2021

This is how I run a bag. Just the cheapy ones you find for $20

phlegethon · Aug 14, 2021

918v said:
The OP wants something to stabilize his rifle on the bench. It’s not difficult at all.

You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said it was difficult to control elevation by squeezing a heavy leather bag, and confirmed the OPs thoughts about how those bags are typically used. I have three of them. They work well but only in specific applications.

Steel head · Aug 14, 2021

phlegethon said:
That’s pretty difficult with the large bags filled with heavy sand. Most people using them for F class or benchrest are indeed using bipods with adjustable height like the Phoenix or Joypod, or an actual rest that would have fine adjustments for both elevation and wind age. Protektor style bags don’t go well with tactical bipods.

They also nan be a bit wonky unless your shooting from a bench or well manicured areas.

918v · Aug 14, 2021

phlegethon said:
You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said it was difficult to control elevation by squeezing a heavy leather bag, and confirmed the OPs thoughts about how those bags are typically used. I have three of them. They work well but only in specific applications.

You need to work on your mechanical ability. You don’t squeeze a large bag. You squeeze the rabbit ears.

harry_x1 · Aug 14, 2021

918v said:
Assuming you have a front rest or bipod, you squeeze the bottom of the ears with your support hand which causes the stock to rise and fall, changing your POA.

Thats correct and for field/combat accuracy that is great.. but when I am testing loads, I feel that I need more stability than usual underneath the stock. Even the slightest of instability can lead to misleading results when you are trying to differentiate between group sizes at 100 yard.

37L1 · Aug 14, 2021

harry_x1 said:
Thats correct and for field/combat accuracy that is great.. but when I am testing loads, I feel that I need more stability than usual on back test. Even the slightest of instability can lead to misleading results when you are trying to differentiate between group sizes at 100 yard.

Then get a front rest (like BR shooters) and a heavy rear bag like a Protector or Edgewood.

You also need to ask yourself if deviations will show up more at 100 yards or 1000.

You can be very accurate with a bipod and a rear "squeeze" bag, don't fool yourself. But for your needs and shooting application, see my first sentence.

Good luck to you.

918v · Aug 14, 2021

harry_x1 said:
Thats correct and for field/combat accuracy that is great.. but when I am testing loads, I feel that I need more stability than usual underneath the stock. Even the slightest of instability can lead to misleading results when you are trying to differentiate between group sizes at 100 yard.

The rear bag is as solid as the surface you place it on. I get zero instability when I use it on a bench. Zero reticle movement.

6.5SH · Aug 14, 2021

They are stupidly expensive but the 4AW Adjustable bag bases can do what the op is asking; no squeeze, repeatable fine adjustment.

If the REAL issue is incorrect bipod height and or recoil management it won't be a giant improvement.

EDIT:
These are cheap enough to experiment with but are adding over 2" to your rear bag starting height:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FDX4N78?psc=1

phlegethon · Aug 14, 2021

harry_x1 said:
Thats correct and for field/combat accuracy that is great.. but when I am testing loads, I feel that I need more stability than usual underneath the stock. Even the slightest of instability can lead to misleading results when you are trying to differentiate between group sizes at 100 yard.

You are on the wrong path. It sounds to me like you would benefit more from working on technique, perhaps by taking a class. Prone with a solid bipod (TBAC, Atlas) and a soft bag, you should be able to get all the accuracy you need. If you think you need to differentiate between groups that are less than 0.1" apart then I have some bad news for you as you would also need to be shooting 50-100 rounds of each sample to see if there were a real difference between groups (not just random chance).

Thinking you need a benchrest setup to “take the shooter out of the equation” for load development is one of the great and common fallacies in precision rifle shooting.

Baron23 · Aug 14, 2021

MinnesotaMulisha said:
Precision Underground will take care of you as far as bags go.
As for using it, check out some of the training videos here.

This ^^. Love the 3D bag and regular squeeze bag and Jesse is a class act who will make things right if you aren’t satisfied.

I also have Weibad bags and the are very good also.

HogsLife · Aug 14, 2021

harry_x1 said:
Hi All,
I handload 338 lapua and take great care to make every bullet very precise. However, when I go out to range to test groups, I am never able to keep the back portion of rifle stable enough to my satisfaction. I generally shoot while lying down on a shooting mat. Have tried bench as well but that seems even more unstable. Are there any recommended rear shooting bags or rests that you can recommend? Only need somethign for load development. I think I am stable enough for combat accuracy, but need better stability while testing loads. Maybe it is just my excessive weight and unfit body, but am sure there are better solutions out there which I am not probably aware about. thanks for you time and assistance.

Harjeet

HogsLife · Aug 14, 2021

Precision Underground ELR bag is a good one

nn8734 · Aug 14, 2021

harry_x1 said:
Hi All,
I handload 338 lapua and take great care to make every bullet very precise. However, when I go out to range to test groups, I am never able to keep the back portion of rifle stable enough to my satisfaction. I generally shoot while lying down on a shooting mat. Have tried bench as well but that seems even more unstable. Are there any recommended rear shooting bags or rests that you can recommend? Only need somethign for load development. I think I am stable enough for combat accuracy, but need better stability while testing loads. Maybe it is just my excessive weight and unfit body, but am sure there are better solutions out there which I am not probably aware about. thanks for you time and assistance.

Harjeet

You’ve never been able to keep the rear of the rifle stable to your satisfaction because you are probably relying entirely on the rear bag for foundational stability instead of just using it to make fine adjustments to your POA. Probably because you aren’t using your core to generate the required preload/stability and/or your breathing needs work.

edit: reread your post where you disclosed your fitness level. I’d work on getting in shape (lots of cardio, cut all sugars/refined carbs and processed foods) and you will find that combined with using your core to achieve stability will yield the biggest improvements in your results on target.

CNC-Dude · Aug 14, 2021

harry_x1 said:
Hi All,
I handload 338 lapua and take great care to make every bullet very precise. However, when I go out to range to test groups, I am never able to keep the back portion of rifle stable enough to my satisfaction. I generally shoot while lying down on a shooting mat. Have tried bench as well but that seems even more unstable. Are there any recommended rear shooting bags or rests that you can recommend? Only need somethign for load development. I think I am stable enough for combat accuracy, but need better stability while testing loads. Maybe it is just my excessive weight and unfit body, but am sure there are better solutions out there which I am not probably aware about. thanks for you time and assistance.

Harjeet

Mark and Sam After Work in Australia makes an adjustable rear bag base that works very well. It has windage and elevation adjustments on it.

Precision Underground · Aug 14, 2021

nn8734 said:
You’ve never been able to keep the rear of the rifle stable to your satisfaction because you are probably relying entirely on the rear bag for foundational stability instead of just using it to make fine adjustments to your POA. Probably because you aren’t using your core to generate the required preload/stability and/or your breathing needs work.

edit: reread your post where you disclosed your fitness level. I’d work on getting in shape (lots of cardio, cut all sugars/refined carbs and processed foods) and you will find that combined with using your core to achieve stability will yield the biggest improvements in your results on target.

This is a huge point I try to convey to people. I’d guess 90% (or more) of shooters are placing their stock on the bag and basically using it like a bench rest set up. They set the rifle on target and then connect themself to the rifle while trying not to disturb it. This can work considering most guys now shoot small calibers with big brakes. But this isn’t going to work as well with a 338. You can make it work but you’ll struggle day to day and likely will have a wondering zero.

So we want the body connected to the earth with the rifle connected to the body, not the other way around. The biggest key I think people miss is the body’s connection to the earth. Guys are up on elbows or else laying too low on top of the rifle. This makes it impossible to use a true NPA. Try to connect your core to the ground, use your back muscles to get your shoulders and face upright, then pull the rifle into a relaxed shoulder. There will be no fishtailing if you do this right and are on a true NPA. In this case the rear bag becomes the glue that makes the reticle be still rather than the actual means of aiming the rifle. NPA comes from you, not your bag. Your bag steadies the reticle while on your NPA.

That being said, if you’re going to use the “bipod bench rest” method and let your bag steer your rifle, our bags can’t be beat since the fill locks together so well. But as a bonus, the fill locking together makes it a bit harder to squeeze/aim so it will coax you to get the stock in your shoulder a bit more which will lead you in a better direction fundamentally.

Baron23 · Aug 18, 2021

I have had a PU ELR 3D and love it. Went for the standard weight fill and I'm fine with that.

Recently bought and received an ELR-Pro bag and love it.

IMO, both are functionally excellent and the build quality is top notch.

That and the service from Jesse and company has been very satisfactory.

I'm quite happy with my Precision Underground products.

308pirate · Aug 18, 2021

harry_x1 said:
Thats correct and for field/combat accuracy that is great.. but when I am testing loads, I feel that I need more stability than usual underneath the stock. Even the slightest of instability can lead to misleading results when you are trying to differentiate between group sizes at 100 yard.

How capable are you of shooting tiny little groups?

acudaowner · Aug 18, 2021

bags are great , lab jacks can be made to work extremely well , 21 year old cheer leaders with big breasts well who don't like them but could raise other issues send pics on what you decide will keep fingers crossed for the cheer leader best of luck ..

Precision Underground · Aug 18, 2021

Baron23 said:
I have had a PU ELR 3D and love it. Went for the standard weight fill and I'm fine with that.

Recently bought and received an ELR-Pro bag and love it.

IMO, both are functionally excellent and the build quality is top notch.

That and the service from Jesse and company has been very satisfactory.

I'm quite happy with my Precision Underground products.

Thank you sir we love hearing good reports

harry_x1 · Aug 18, 2021

Precision Underground said:
This is a huge point I try to convey to people. I’d guess 90% (or more) of shooters are placing their stock on the bag and basically using it like a bench rest set up. They set the rifle on target and then connect themself to the rifle while trying not to disturb it. This can work considering most guys now shoot small calibers with big brakes. But this isn’t going to work as well with a 338. You can make it work but you’ll struggle day to day and likely will have a wondering zero.

So we want the body connected to the earth with the rifle connected to the body, not the other way around. The biggest key I think people miss is the body’s connection to the earth. Guys are up on elbows or else laying too low on top of the rifle. This makes it impossible to use a true NPA. Try to connect your core to the ground, use your back muscles to get your shoulders and face upright, then pull the rifle into a relaxed shoulder. There will be no fishtailing if you do this right and are on a true NPA. In this case the rear bag becomes the glue that makes the reticle be still rather than the actual means of aiming the rifle. NPA comes from you, not your bag. Your bag steadies the reticle while on your NPA.

That being said, if you’re going to use the “bipod bench rest” method and let your bag steer your rifle, our bags can’t be beat since the fill locks together so well. But as a bonus, the fill locking together makes it a bit harder to squeeze/aim so it will coax you to get the stock in your shoulder a bit more which will lead you in a better direction fundamentally.

Thanks so much for this wonderful advice. I trued to follow the instructions. Tried to get max body to ground contact and had the rifle pushing into the shoulder more while using a bag for rear support. Previously I was trying to use the technique I use with lighter calibr 6.5 creed (bench rest method), with minimal rifle contact. And that just did not work with my 338. I also did one extra thing. There are couple of straps in front of my shooting mat, I used those to sligtly load the bipod… and vallah… here is a picture of a 5 shot group that I now shoot consistently, group after group. I also have full faith that with this technique, most of the shooter error has been raken out of the equation. Thanks so much for the wonderful advice.

Precision Underground · Aug 19, 2021

harry_x1 said:
Thanks so much for this wonderful advice. I trued to follow the instructions. Tried to get max body to ground contact and had the rifle pushing into the shoulder more while using a bag for rear support. Previously I was trying to use the technique I use with lighter calibr 6.5 creed (bench rest method), with minimal rifle contact. And that just did not work with my 338. I also did one extra thing. There are couple of straps in front of my shooting mat, I used those to sligtly load the bipod… and vallah… here is a picture of a 5 shot group that I now shoot consistently, group after group. I also have full faith that with this technique, most of the shooter error has been raken out of the equation. Thanks so much for the wonderful advice.

Yep you got it. When you connect yourself to the ground and then connect the rifle to you, the recoil is forced to move your entire body weight which makes a lot of recoil seem like not so much. Just make sure to keep that shoulder relaxed so it absorbs/transfers recoil rather than reflecting it back into the rifle.

308pirate · Aug 19, 2021

Precision Underground said:
Just make sure to keep that shoulder relaxed so it absorbs/transfers recoil rather than reflecting it back into the rifle.

A handgun parallel is to not lock out the elbows and instead have a slight bend downwards. Noobs that I correct on this are amazed at how their recoil management improves.

Precision Underground · Aug 19, 2021

308pirate said:
A handgun parallel is to not lock out the elbows and instead have a slight bend downwards. Noobs that I correct on this are amazed at how their recoil management improves.

Yup. You can’t stop recoil. You need to give it something to do to expend the energy.

jLorenzo · Aug 20, 2021

These guys shoot large calibers alot, very particular about the NPOA and gun setup.

4AW Adjustable Bag BASES

Adjustable Bag bases Details for each base are listed with each product Bag set mentioned in video (Allen: Filled Front & Rear Shooters Rest)

4aw-store.myshopify.com

JAS-SH · Oct 6, 2021

Baron23 said:
I have had a PU ELR 3D and love it. Went for the standard weight fill and I'm fine with that.

Recently bought and received an ELR-Pro bag and love it.

IMO, both are functionally excellent and the build quality is top notch.

That and the service from Jesse and company has been very satisfactory.

I'm quite happy with my Precision Underground products.

Almost exactly the same story for me. Got a 3D bag last year and love it for bench work. I was so surprised when I received the EL-Rx bag today. It allows me to set my Alas bipod up 2 notches vs 1 notch for the 3D, which makes it much more comfortable when prone. Moreover, the amount and type of fill make it rock solid, even when tilting it to adjust height. Set it and forget it. It doesn't sag in between shots so I don't have to re-adjust the bag for each shot. The fill being able to keep the POA in place and the adjustment capability makes it an outstanding bag in my book!! Thanks Precision Underground!

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Rear support for bolt action rifle?

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