Market for Iron Sights

YOLO · Oct 5, 2021

Hi All,
I'm just wondering if people still use iron sights much anymore on centrefire rifles which do not come standard with iron sights (I.e. most bolt action rifles)?

I have had a bit of a look to see what's out there and find that most of the stuff is very expensive with regard to what is involved in manufacturing the product on a mass scale (albeit, if this were only small scale production then the prices make sense).

This got me wondering if the market is big enough to bother trying to design and produce a run of sights that could be fit to any rifle using a picatinny/weaver rail.

There are 2 types I was thinking of:
Sight 1) A universal tangent sight (such as on The Kar98, Ak47, SKS)

Sight 2) A target peep/aperture (sight such as the old Redfields and Parker Hales and the newer RPA sights)
1)

2)

The main reason for me considering this is because I was not happy with the cost of purchasing a set of decent sights and found there was little available to suit my requirements.

A big problem with the idea is that it would require the buyer to fit the front sight which would require a medium level of skill. It would also require them to know their barrel outside diameter and to work out their bore axis to rail height (as well as their sight radius for the target sights).

I feel like the Sight 1 option would be far more feasible due to lower manufacturing costs, a bigger market (at a guess) and the fact that it would be more universally adaptable. At an estimate, Sight 1 would cost $110 to $175US for both front and rear sights.

Anyway, I would love to hear some people's thoughts and opinions on this. It might sound like a crazy idea but I feel like many of the current options are very expensive for their simplicity and lack of functionality.

Cheers.

MK20 · Oct 6, 2021

If you can get it at that price point, count me in.

gnochi · Oct 6, 2021

Like many firearms projects, it’s probably never going to recover the value of engineering time or prototype manufacture. That said - I’m not one to let that stop me, and if this is something you want, make it happen!

You could get the price into that range if you made at least 100 units; a 1-off is going to be closer to $1500 once you account for CAM and tooling.

Also, front sights are a bitch. Collars for tapered barrels are awful - recoil makes them want to slip off, and as you mentioned the measurements suck. It’ll need to go to a machine shop anyway, so just use a dovetail that slides freely and a set screw to lock it up. Please pick a dovetail angle that you can find the right cutter on McMaster-Carr.

MK20 · Oct 6, 2021

I would recommend duplicating the M39 finnish sight. Simple, easy, and all your zero adjustments are made there vs the rear sight.

pmclaine · Oct 6, 2021

I went "Belt and Suspenders" on my Win 70.

Receiver mounted rear....

Front on a dovetail....

Scope blocks on receiver and barrel for optics....

Everything is "QD" and I have a blank to fill the rear sight base when the scope is mounted...

Changing block heights allows for all kinds of adjustment to compensate for barrel diameters or receiver mount heights.

My fantasy idea for this gun was a 30-06 capable of taking any animal in North America, optics for aiming yet irons for when the scope shits the bed.

I have a Redfield 3-9X I was thinking of mounting on this. If I did I would use a pic rail with some sort of QD rings or common 1/2 inch nut with a specific torque.

My rifle was easy as Most of the required prep smithing was factory. Receiver sight mount holes can be a bitch to do after the fact depending on hardness.

If you were going to mount the rear receiver sight on the pic rail Id suggest something like that on a Springfield 03A3.

Simple peep, rough range graduations you would have to confirm with your ammo, excellent windage adjustment for zero with expectation to use "kentucky windage" if actually needed.

Front is still going to require a post. How about a "compression band" of sorts perhaps possible to fit a range of barrel diameters. Leave the post high so the user can file to zero.

It would probably all look ugly but if it saved your dream hunt when the scope shits the bed it might be worth it.

S12A · Oct 6, 2021

Self timing (think muzzle brake) front base that threads on 5/8x24 threaded barrels …

MK20 · Oct 6, 2021

I would look at what Sako did for the Greenland Rangers. It is a nicely executed concept.

beetroot · Oct 6, 2021

A slip on and clamp front sight should be possible, looks like that's what Tikka did for their Artic rifle.

A front sight that required no gun smiting and a rear ghost ring that mounted on a pirating rail would be pretty sweet.

You'd likely need a few front sight options for different thickness barrels and different sized ghost rings to account for barrel length.

brianf · Oct 6, 2021

as much as i used to love shooting irons once the eyes arent good enough anymore

i brought out my chipmunk 22 with peep for my son to try, havnt shot it in 30+ years maybe more

needless to say we shot my vudoo that day with a scope lol

i do love the look of quality peeps

YOLO · Oct 6, 2021

@gnochi
The plan would be to make 1000's or not bother.
I completely agree with the collars- they would be a nightmare. Which left me to consider 2 options for the front sight.
1) A dovetail. This could be hand fitted to prevent the need for a gunsmith. This is a kit from Wheeler Engineering:

2) A front sight base like seen in @pmclaine 's photos above.
However, can you drill and tap sporter barrels for a sight base or is the wall too thin? I think that they are looking a little on the thin side to do this.
One could still produce a jig to sell with a kit so that it could be done at home but this would be more delicate work than the dovetail, plus you'd need a tap on top of this.

One could always provide 2 front sight options I guess but the dovetail seems the safer. A dovetail and 2 front screws are the only 2 styles that I can think of that can be universally adapted. I think there are too many variables which will hinder the ability to use anything which goes over the barrel. If anyone can think of anything, then I'm all ears. The below barrel clamp in an option but is rather bulky. I guess that the design could be refined a little to clean it up slightly. It would be more of a temporary fitted sight though as opposed to a permanent fixture.

Soldering a base on would be the ultimate but I personally wouldn't want to put flame to the barrel and ruin the "normalised" heat treat. I imagine most others would feel the same.

I would personally prefer the sight base style because it could easily be removed and can be swapped for target sights. It also would only require a hex key (or the likes) to install and fit. This style would also be capable of maintaining close to it's original zero if removed and reinstalled carefully (which has benefits in limited situations I know).

@pmclaine
The reason I came across all of this was because I also wanted iron sights as back-up if my scope fails. I ended up buying a used Parker Hale for a hefty price.
I think I will drop the idea of "Sight 2" because the sight radius will be too much of an issue. I guess it would be possible to make them for various barrel lengths but then it adds to the complexity of manufacturing very significantly.

I hadn't come across the Springfield 03A3 sight before. They are quite a nice setup!

I assume that you mean a band that tightens on compression by "compression band". I think this again would have the problem of too many variables with barrel taper.

"It would probably all look ugly but if it saved your dream hunt when the scope shits the bed it might be worth it." My thoughts exactly.

@S12A
"Self timing (think muzzle brake) front base that threads on 5/8x24 threaded barrels …"
A good idea for those not wanting to touch their barrel. I guess that it would be possible to time it using locking nuts. I had ruled that out but now that I think about it, that could be a very good option because it requires little skill to fit on the customer's end. The major downside to this is that it requires a lathe/gunsmith if the barrel isn't already threaded. I'll have to think about the design a little more on this one.

@MK20 / @beetroot
I like the slip on ring ideas but would need to account for too many different barrel types. I guess that these could be sleeved with bushes such as the images below. As @gnochi said though, because of the taper, this is an option prone to problems unless specifically designed for the barrel. The rear sight on Tikka Arctic are very cool but if they were for custom rifles then they would require the holes to be precisely drilled according to

@brianf
I agree that iron sights compared to a scope are hard on the eyes.
I did come across a situation a few months ago where the iron sights far out benefited a scope (unless you have a scope with some form of distance markings). My friends and I were plinking at a target with the same model CZ .22. He had iron sights (the standard tangent sight) and I had a Bushnell 3-9 with a Plain Jane crosshair. My scope was sighted in to about 50m. If you know your ballistics and have a more tactical scope then this isn't an issue but they come with a higher $ value. I had to guess holdovers wherever we shot from, where as he could simply slide the scale very quickly and hit the target in the first shot (I took several shots to find the correct holdover and this was hard to repeat).
Although target style sights (Sight 2 style) are more accurate, nothing, except a tactical scope to my knowledge, will be as fast for changing targets at varying distances as a tangent sight.

@pmclaine "Simple peep, rough range graduations you would have to confirm with your ammo, excellent windage adjustment for zero with expectation to use "kentucky windage" if actually needed."
^^
I was thinking of the M39 @MK20 front sight and would want all adjustments to be made at the front. After looking at a ton of options, I am thinking of something that is proven and works very well. And I keep coming back to the Mosin Nagant 91/30 front sight, with the one alteration being a grub screw to set the elevation instead of a file.

Maybe this style but with an open top would be better like the M39. This would prevent the problem of having to maintain the front ring centered with the post sight alignment (which would be a big problem with varying barrel sizes, height above bore axis, etc.). The M39 style "wings" would also have less chance of coming into sight picture of any optics if it were permanently mounted.

Now, in terms of windage and elevation adjustment at the rear sight for quick adjustments:
One could make a sight that is based on a set sight radius in MILS or MOA. As soon as the sight radius is changed, these markings are no longer accurate to MILS or MOA. The sight radius on most rifles is likely to differ.
So, would it still be worth bothering to have fast rear windage adjustments in your opinion? Most of the old battle rifles did not. Maybe the "Keep it simple stupid" attitude is best for this. It would also bring cost down.
I was thinking that the rear sight would come with a removeable blank plate that required the shooter to set the meters/yards to their particular ammo with a center punch or the likes. Thoughts on this?

The biggest question is still the market demand for such a product. I would have bought something like this if it were available but do others have the same mindset?

The reasons for purchase I was thinking are:
Back up sights
Cost compared to any other optics
Reliability
Rapid changes for targets at various distances
Compatible with most bolt action rifles
Works on a picatinny/weaver rail (I don't know why more things aren't standardized to this- probably so companies can make more profits)
Hopefully, does not require a gunsmith
Requires no "special tools" for sight adjustment

Let me know what you'll think,
Cheers!

gnochi · Oct 7, 2021

YOLO said:
However, can you drill and tap sporter barrels for a sight base or is the wall too thin? I think that they are looking a little on the thin side to do this.

If you can’t tap 5+ threads without getting within 0.1” of the bore, then it’s too thin. Soldering something on would be fine in that case.

I actually really liked the idea of the threaded muzzle with an indexing adapter that @S12A mentioned. For thin barrels it could abut against the muzzle instead of a cut shoulder.

FWIW, I’ve used the annular cutter and muzzle threading kit from CNC Warrior, and the Manson crowning tool, and had great results without a lathe.

4thandbleek · Oct 7, 2021

I got into shooting watching my dad and i would say to me - Learn to shoot the factory sights then you can do whatever you want.

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