Night Vision IR lasers FP vs commercial

TxWelder35 · Nov 25, 2021

Starting my dive into the NV world. Picked up a single milspec L3 PVS 14, helmet, and Wilcox Mount. Need a laser for my rifle and Trying to decide on which one. Budget is going be $1500 or less. Much too poor for a mawl or any of those other Gucci gang lasers.

That being said I could have swore I’ve seen full power laser come up every so often for sub $2k. Am I wrong?

Also, for using a pvs14 is using a FP laser needed? What is the useful range of a commercial spec laser? I keep reading that they are basically useless.

Will be mounted on an 18” SPR for now until I buy a LMT MLC pistol.

Do you use your Illuminator often that comes on the PEQs and DBALs? Half tempted to just get that cheap tnvc laser.

generalzip · Nov 25, 2021

No FP is not needed and often too much. A commercial laser will point further than you can shoot and hit anything. The usefulness of FP lasers comes when they are in the form of an illuminator where it’s a less focused or diffused laser to produce IR light. A good IR illuminator like that on the D2 accomplishes much of the same. There’s a new Russian one out that FP that’s around 1500 if you’re interested.

nn8734 · Nov 25, 2021

Most illuminators on commercial multifunction aiming devices <= $1500 or so such as the ATPIAL-C suck; the DBAL D2 being an exception. Yes, fp PEQ15s occasionally sell for under 2k but if it goes belly up it’s a paperweight.

I use a Steiner CQBL on my all-purpose carbine for aiming, it’s fine for my needs. I couple it with a surefire wL/IR.

For longer range stuff w/clip-ons, I’d rather have a high performing illuminator (I use a SPIR for illumination) but that’s just me/my use case.

CoryT · Nov 25, 2021

You only really benefit from the illuminator. There are several options for a civ legal illum that will work as well, if not better that most black market FP units. The MAWL C1+ pointer/illuminator and the dedicated KIJI illuminator from BE Meyers are WAY better that my PEQ-15A for example. The ELIR-3 from Luna is nice for clip-on long range use.

TheHebrewHammer · Nov 25, 2021

As someone who has a metric fuck ton of FP lasers, I've never had an actual use for a FP laser outside of work. Always have to turn it on low power when I'm actually shooting stuff for fun. Get the D2, don't look back.

WhereNow&How · Nov 25, 2021

TheHebrewHammer said:
As someone who has a metric fuck ton of FP lasers,

Oh Lord, sounds like Horta has a viable compatriot with the crème de la crème.

TheHebrewHammer · Nov 25, 2021

I'm more of a quantity man, horta seems like a quality and quantity kinda person.

theLBC · Nov 25, 2021

i like the D2 performance if you don't mind the bulkiness. the visible laser is extremely bright if needed for something other than sighting in the pointer. pattern filters might also be a plus if you are shooting with others like a hog hunt.

Evolution 9 · Nov 25, 2021

For playing, civilian power is just fine for the aimer but the illumination won’t be very useful. But…

For serious use I’d never give up my full power lasers. Try this…

You’re using nods. A car pulls up with brights right on you. You have a civilian laser and can’t engage the driver and try all sorts of antics you pretend you practice often, to switch to a day aiming solution that somehow sees the driver. You die satisfied that civilian lasers are just fine.

Try this again with a real laser…

You simply look right at the driver with your nods. No, the brights will not damage your nods or make them “bloom”. You put the big bright laser right where you want to hit and fire (see 223 Gold Dot thread). You live satisfied that you didn’t die satisfied with a civilian laser

TxWelder35 · Nov 25, 2021

TheHebrewHammer said:
As someone who has a metric fuck ton of FP lasers, I've never had an actual use for a FP laser outside of work. Always have to turn it on low power when I'm actually shooting stuff for fun. Get the D2, don't look back.

So just looked into the D2. It looks like a giant beast hanging off the end of the rifle

Evolution 9 · Nov 25, 2021

TxWelder35 said:
So just looked into the D2. It looks like a giant beast hanging off the end of the rifle

And HEAVY

TxWelder35 · Nov 26, 2021

So I found a dbal i2 that has just the air ladder and a visible laser, no Illuminator for $500.

Would I be better off getting something like that plus an IR flashlight or getting one with the Illuminator built in for $890

That d2 just seems absolutely giant. Then again having a laser and a flash light I doubt is any lighter. Thoughts?

Threadcutter308 · Nov 26, 2021

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Superior quality Russian made ZenitCo Perst-3 gen.3 dual visible green+ and IR tactical laser designator with IR illuminator. CNC machined aluminum body. Features gen.4 plug. New KV-2D switch can be mounted on M1913 rail or directly on Zenitco Basis chassis. Visible green+ powered up laser (...

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aslrookie · Nov 26, 2021

As someone who's personally used dedicated IR lights, civ lasers and FP lasers...here are my thoughts:

You can't solely base your tool choices on cost/budget. I did that when I first got my nods. I aimed passively with a Eotech and had a Modlite IR 850 illuminator for when I needed illumination. The problem with standalone illuminators, including the new BE Meyers Kiji is unless it's a rifle you never intend to need white light with...you're going to end up with 2 lights, a laser, optic, and switches. At that point you might as well get a bayonet and swiss army knife attachments too so you can be the next meme. It makes for a bulky setup and just more crap you have to manage especially on short railed guns like SBR's.

My next purchase was a DBAL A3. The DBAL was improvement based on the fact I had visible and IR laser, and IR illuminator without needing two flashlights on my rifle. On really dark nights, the A3 actually does a decent job especially if there's no moon and you're illuminating into a shadow. I've seen it light up targets at 200 yards in those conditions. However, those conditions are rare and the much more common performance is sub 100 yards and basically useless in a full moon trying to illuminate into a shadow. Ya know, like a tree line?

FP DBAL A2: this is where I am at now and where I should've started. It doesn't have to be an A2, but the FP performance is a game changer. I bang steel at 200 yards with my SBR under nods all the time. These dudes claiming 100 and in is just bullshit. Their equipment is either never used and or they just post cool boi pics on social media for likes and follows. The only civ lasers you can get to engage steel at 100+ yards regardless of conditions would either be a DBAL D2 or your high-dollar MAWLs and the like.

People act like FP lasers just randomly break or very likely to break and have a "paperweight," again these dudes are just talking without experience. Do your research and don't buy some salty PEQ that looks like it's tumbled down Mt. St Helens and made in 2008. You can find agency demo units and lightly used units second hand. I paid less than $2k for mine. My buddy paid $3k for his MAWL and BE Meyers won't fix shit for free even if something did break. My FP unit outperforms his MAWL that cost $1k more than mine. The only thing I like more about the MAWL is the quick adjustment from long to short flood for illumination. That's definitely not worth $1k to more in my opinion.

FP laser cons: even on low power, it's pumping out more juice than a civ laser on high power. So you just have to be more careful on not shining that shit on reflective surfaces to your nods especially in CQB environments.

Welcome to the NV game.

TheGerman · Nov 26, 2021

The only civ power unit worth a shit is the Steiner DBAL-D2. The downside is the housing on it is fucking HUGE, but I think that is part of the reason that it doesn't just outright suck.

From the ones I've seen, the illumninator is clean, very clear and kept up with a FP PEQ out to 250ish yards. The laser is your typical low power laser that can be seen out to maybe 200 yards, but then when there is a lot of ambient light out, it quickly is washed out.

Honorable mention to the MAWL and its phased witchcraft to skirt around the restrictions, but its ergonomics leave a lot to be desired as well as very little aftermarket/othermarket support for it.

All of the civi units outside of these are literally a fucking toy. The PEQ15 civi version has the same laser as the DBAL but then has a illuminator that is good to maybe 50 yards. Anything Wilcox made that was civilian power was literally insultingly low to where the illuminator wasn't visible on anything at even 10 yards. The other Steiner units are just as bad as the L3 civi peq. Save your money on any of these, seriously. They're shit. There's no way around it.

Even if you're not shooting 200+ yards with a carbine, full power gives you many more options. The other thing people don't think about is the moon phase. There are nights when the moon is out and you NEED a full power laser/illum to even see anything as the ambient light is washing it out. Then there are nights where its so fucking dark, the lower power stuff basically blinds you. But remember, low power on full power units are still higher than high power on low power units.

Overall there is no comparison. If you want a warranty and a civi unit, get the D2. Otherwise you'll just be disappointed as civi level units really are that bad.

aslrookie · Nov 26, 2021

OP: post# 14 and 15 is all you need.

WhereNow&How · Nov 26, 2021

aslrookie said:
FP laser cons: even on low power, it's pumping out more juice than a civ laser on high power. So you just have to be more careful on not shining that shit on reflective surfaces to your nods especially in CQB environments.

You can put a Neutral Density Filter on the IR Point side of the Dbal A2 and tame it down even more on the low side. Then you can shine it on pretty much anything and not worry about reflection.

The Dbal A2 on low setting puts out 1 mW. This NDF filter will take it down 80% to about 0.2 mW on the low setting.

MFR Part No 9138

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1124682-REG/steiner_9138_neutral_density_filter_nsn2087_black.html

aslrookie · Nov 26, 2021

WhereNow&How said:
You can put a Neutral Density Filter on the IR Point side of the Dbal A2 and tame it down even more on the low side. Then you can shine it on pretty much anything and not worry about reflection.

The Dbal A2 on low setting puts out 1 mW. This NDF filter will take it down 80% to about 0.2 mW on the low setting.

MFR Part No 9138

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1124682-REG/steiner_9138_neutral_density_filter_nsn2087_black.html

Good looking out!

BuildingConceptsllc · Nov 26, 2021

FP Dbal A2 with filter checks all the boxes. That's what I have.

WhereNow&How · Nov 26, 2021

BuildingConceptsllc said:
FP Dbal A2 with filter checks all the boxes. That's what I have.

Well maybe not.

A FP Dbal A3 checks ALL the boxes IMHO.

The importance of the instant ability to project a 50 mW Green Vis Point slaved to white light (such as a Mod Lite OKW) cannot be underestimated in some situations.

Every other MFAL I am aware of does not have an instant Overide to Vis Point that I am aware of. On everything else you must turn a dial of some sort. That lag time turning a dial is a disadvantage when seconds count.

TheHorta · Nov 26, 2021

Get a dedicated IR/Vis laser plus a SF Vampire. This will give you ALL lighting options and will be stupid light and compact. You’ll have visible light and super-bright IR illumination plus slaved IR/Vis lasers on a single pressure switch.

Best of all worlds — light, compact, cheap (at or under $1K total), legal, supported/warranty.

For ultra lightweight I run this and it works great.

WhereNow&How · Nov 26, 2021

TheHorta said:
Get a dedicated IR/Vis laser plus a SF Vampire. This will give you ALL lighting options and will be stupid light and compact. You’ll have visible light and super-bright IR illumination plus slaved IR/Vis lasers on a single pressure switch.

Best of all worlds — light, compact, cheap (at or under $1K total), legal, supported/warranty.

Explain that in more detail. Still dont understand how a single pressure switch can do all that with the setup you describe.

The SF Vampire would require rotating the head to do either White Light or IR Light. Unacceptable time lost when seconds count. Plus a hand has to come off your grip.

My point is instant VIS Point/White light or instant IR Point/IR Illuminate. Takes 1 Unity Hot Button and 1 Taps Sync to do it with a Dbal A3 and you just decide which button to push.

TheHorta · Nov 26, 2021

I don’t operate. So you operators out there should buy high speed kit. My yotes don’t shoot back.

Lots of operators here.

WhereNow&How · Nov 26, 2021

TheHorta said:
I don’t operate. So you operators out there should buy high speed kit. My yotes don’t shoot back.

Lots of operators here.

Let some Crackheads attack your crib. You will be operating quicker than you think.

BuildingConceptsllc · Nov 26, 2021

WhereNow&How said:
Well maybe not.

A FP Dbal A3 checks ALL the boxes IMHO.

The importance of the instant ability to project a 50 mW Green Vis Point slaved to white light (such as a Mod Lite OKW) cannot be underestimated in some situations.

Every other MFAL I am aware of does not have an instant Overide to Vis Point that I am aware of. On everything else you must turn a dial of some sort. That lag time turning a dial is a disadvantage when seconds count.

Not how I set up or use it but I can see your point.

westsidecamper · Nov 26, 2021

i'm gonna disagree with horta and say just get a D2 at b&h. I have a CQBL-1 and M600V setup and it's bigger than my D2, but also has less range and capability. don't get the dbal i2, the vis and ir aren't slaved and the illuminator version has weak illum.
cost breakdown: d2 - 1159, 1240 with tax. cqbl-1, m603v, dual switch - 598 + 500 = 1098. So price shouldn't matter that much. I haven't weighed, and i don't want to disassemble, but it weighs a lot (more than the d2) and is not compact. i'll post a pic later with a side by side. there are other things to consider, e.g. dbal-d2's shape makes it annoying to use or mount in some scenarios and it doesn't have any other mounting options available.

nn8734 · Nov 26, 2021

WhereNow&How said:
Explain that in more detail. Still dont understand how a single pressure switch can do all that with the setup you describe.

The SF Vampire would require rotating the head to do either White Light or IR Light. Unacceptable time lost when seconds count. Plus a hand has to come off your grip.

My point is instant VIS Point/White light or instant IR Point/IR Illuminate. Takes 1 Unity Hot Button and 1 Taps Sync to do it with a Dbal A3 and you just decide which button to push.

Or you can rotate the flashlight head to IR before you begin…

@TheHorta is prob referring to something like this

But for longer range SPR/DMR/precision per the OP, id go with the D2 as its in his budget and checks the main box which is “sufficiently capable IR illuminator”. Its a little big but that isn’t a critical for egros like it could be for some folks when put on a regular carbine.

TxWelder35 · Nov 26, 2021

Threadcutter308 said:
ZenitCo Perst-3 gen.4 dual visible/IR tactical green+ laser designator with IR illuminator | IvanTactical Store

Superior quality Russian made ZenitCo Perst-3 gen.3 dual visible green+ and IR tactical laser designator with IR illuminator. CNC machined aluminum body. Features gen.4 plug. New KV-2D switch can be mounted on M1913 rail or directly on Zenitco Basis chassis. Visible green+ powered up laser (...

ivantactical.com

Have any of y’all played with this rooskie unit at all? Comparing to a d2 or a FP a2/3 which are not easy to find.

Thanks for a the long answers guys, being this shit is expensive don’t want to be making $1k purchase mistakes.

@TheHorta which laser are you running on that rig?

TheHorta · Nov 26, 2021

I have a 200-watt DBAL-A3 that will leave smouldering craters where eyeballs used to be.

WillHugh · Nov 26, 2021

I've seen a boatload of full power peq15s in the $1,500 range recently. I think at that price they're a no brainer. As much as I like my cheap dbal 9007s (ir illum and laser) for use on subguns, I would take my full power units all day long for serious use. Illuminator will punch out to 1,000 + yards and through other light sources as needed.

I can understand the apprehension about lack of warranty, but they're rugged, and most warranties are only good for a year anyway.

TheHorta · Nov 26, 2021

TxWelder35 said:
Have any of y’all played with this rooskie unit at all? Comparing to a d2 or a FP a2/3 which are not easy to find.

Thanks for a the long answers guys, being this shit is expensive don’t want to be making $1k purchase mistakes.

@TheHorta which laser are you running on that rig?

On the superlight? A Steiner/TNVC TOR.

aslrookie · Nov 26, 2021

WhereNow&How said:
Well maybe not.

A FP Dbal A3 checks ALL the boxes IMHO.

The importance of the instant ability to project a 50 mW Green Vis Point slaved to white light (such as a Mod Lite OKW) cannot be underestimated in some situations.

Every other MFAL I am aware of does not have an instant Overide to Vis Point that I am aware of. On everything else you must turn a dial of some sort. That lag time turning a dial is a disadvantage when seconds count.

Yup, only thing I don't like about my A2.

TheHorta · Nov 26, 2021

Here’s a small sampling of a few IR thingies:

WhereNow&How · Nov 26, 2021

aslrookie said:
Yup, only thing I don't like about my A2.

The Dbal A2's are good units. Here is a solution to instant Vis Point and White light you might want to consider pairing on your A2 setup. If you are a right hand shooter mount it at the 3.00 o'clock position with a pushbutton tailcap option.

Now you can pretty much mimic all of the benefits the A3 has to offer, regarding instant transition to Vis Point/White Light. The HLX-Laser is slightly bigger than some other lights but it is a solid piece of kit. Wish they made it in Green laser, but Red can get the job done.

ProTac® Rail Mount HL-X Laser | Weapon-Mounted Light | Streamlight®

aslrookie · Nov 26, 2021

WhereNow&How said:
The Dbal A2's are good units. Here is a solution to instant Vis Point and White light you might want to consider pairing on your A2 setup. If you are a right hand shooter mount it at the 3.00 o'clock position with a pushbutton tailcap option.

Now you can pretty much mimic all of the benefits the A3 has to offer, regarding instant transition to Vis Point/White Light. The HLX-Laser is slightly bigger than some other lights but it is a solid piece of kit. Wish they made it in Green laser, but Red can get the job done.

ProTac® Rail Mount HL-X Laser | Weapon-Mounted Light | Streamlight®

Interesting concept. I am a modlite fanboy now though. That OKW head is no joke being able to throw white light at 200 yards and clearly see stuff through my LPVO.

WhereNow&How · Nov 26, 2021

TheHorta said:
Here’s a small sampling of a few IR thingies:

View attachment 7747993

Nice. But here is the magic question for a man as accomplished as you.

Why does that Stable, not include a FP Dbal A3. Especially an iteration such as the 50/50/200.

Gotta be a reason. Educate please.

WhereNow&How · Nov 26, 2021

aslrookie said:
Interesting concept. I am a modlite fanboy now though. That OKW head is no joke being able to throw white light at 200 yards and clearly see stuff through my LPVO.

I'm with you on the OKW head. It wins the Candela and Photonics war currently/for a solid piece of kit.

And for any thinking it will have too much splashback inside buildings with close walls. Forget that nonsense.

If you have to overpower the usual weapon mounted lights out there being used, the OKW is about the best bet.

WhereNow&How · Nov 26, 2021

TheHorta said:
I have a 200-watt DBAL-A3 that will leave smouldering craters where eyeballs used to be.

View attachment 7747988

I'd missed that post somehow. I'm impressed. Through me a bone in your Will.

TxWelder35 · Nov 26, 2021

TheHorta said:
I have a 200-watt DBAL-A3 that will leave smouldering craters where eyeballs used to be.

View attachment 7747988

You know I’ve been wanting to get laser eye surgery, sounds like I could kill 2 birds with one stone here

TheHebrewHammer · Nov 26, 2021

TheHorta said:
I have a 200-watt DBAL-A3 that will leave smouldering craters where eyeballs used to be.

View attachment 7747988

I have a couple of those, I also have some 50mw green OTAL-C that I enjoy putting three on my saiga 12 and making a green Predator laser.

westsidecamper · Nov 26, 2021

nn8734 said:
Or you can rotate the flashlight head to IR before you begin…

@TheHorta is prob referring to something like this

But for longer range SPR/DMR/precision per the OP, id go with the D2 as its in his budget and checks the main box which is “sufficiently capable IR illuminator”. Its a little big but that isn’t a critical for egros like it could be for some folks when put on a regular carbine.

you beat me to it, here's a comparison to the D2

TxWelder35 · Nov 26, 2021

TheHorta said:
Here’s a small sampling of a few IR thingies:

View attachment 7747993

Whatcha think about that Perst? I think I’m in between that and the d2

TheHorta · Nov 26, 2021

I like the Perst. Similar weight to the D2, but not as wide/fat.

The inside room diffuser on the Perst works VERY well for an interior flood.

TxWelder35 · Nov 26, 2021

TheHorta said:
I like the Perst. Similar weight to the D2, but not as wide/fat.

The inside room diffuser on the Perst works VERY for an interior flood.

How is the laser on the D2? Any issues on brighter nights not being able to see it?

TheHorta · Nov 26, 2021

TxWelder35 said:
How is the laser on the D2? Any issues on brighter nights not being able to see it?

It can get lost on bright moon nights past 100 yards. I’m all thermal, so was never an issue for me.

TheHebrewHammer · Nov 26, 2021

Actually, get a 5W IZLID, you will never complain about a lack of illumination.

WhereNow&How · Nov 26, 2021

TheHorta said:
It can get lost on bright moon nights past 100 yards. I’m all thermal, so was never an issue for me.

I like both good IR & Thermal. Redundancy for when the hordes of Zombies attack.

If one devices batteries die, nice to have a solid backup.

TheGerman · Nov 26, 2021

Don't use dual setting lights on your gun. The entire vampire light idea is retarded.

PEQ will have IR laser and illum. Laser to aim/designate, illum to 'see' better. If you need to PID a target (which will be relatively close, as if you're using white light to see shit at 125 yards in the dark with NV, you're retarded and about to be shot anyways), then use the white light with a momentary setting only.

You don't want to be fucking around with settings on lights and then either needing the white light setting and its on IR, or not remembering what setting its on right now and having to guess.

IR light/laser are on one tape switch and you usually have the setting for it on either laser only or laser+ illum depending whats happening.

White light on a totally separate area/tapeswitch (not this Surefire SRDIT or TAPS shit).

Then you just work through the flowchart depending on whats going on and ROE.

- Somethings there (ROE PID?)

Yes - Have gun aimed on target - white light on - decision shoot/no shoot - light off - move

No - PEQ on (setting can vary; laser to aim, laser + illum, or no PEQ at all passive) - shoot - PEQ off - move

TheGerman · Nov 26, 2021

TheHorta said:
It can get lost on bright moon nights past 100 yards. I’m all thermal, so was never an issue for me.

And this is why people end up driving into ditches.

TxWelder35 · Nov 26, 2021

TheGerman said:
And this is why people end up driving into ditches.

I believe it was a swamp.

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Night Vision IR lasers FP vs commercial

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