I haven't had a chance to keep up with everything but everyone seems to be all fired up at the Precision Rifle Series as a whole. What happened to get everyone so fired up?
Why is everyone mad at PRS
- Thread starter Skylvia
- Start date
Certain people suck badly at it. Those certain people took to the internet to complain.
Basically "sandy-vagina-syndrome".
Basically "sandy-vagina-syndrome".
I'd be interested to hear from people actually involved in PRS. I'm not yet in the game so my opinion is worthless on the topic.
They made Daniel Defense their official rifle lol
Just like anything else involving humans, drama ensues. Ignore the BS and go shoot. Have fun.
Pick your person…many reasons why someone would be mad. Just like with any other sports league you will have people that do not agree with rules, procedures, management, and maybe just general direction the organization is heading. Overall I believe the PRS is moving in a net positive direction and establishing the sport. I would like to see more focus on the shooters and less on the sponsors though. If you grow the shooters the sponsors will follow!
I really haven’t met anyone who shoots PRS that is angry at the organization.
If you want to standardize the sport you need to standardize the rules ( even if its barricade bench rest), so some outlaw sniper match rules were not included understandably. Altus is hosting a match to satisfy that need in some. Go shoot them, maybe that will be another series if we encourage it.
Production limits were increased because the gap between an off the shelf RPR/Tikka vs a Custom MPA/MDT is so much that the entry level shooter will get dejected & quit. I saw some first year shooters with a PPR or PMR finish top 10 in local club matches & that is good.
Shannon & Julie do a fantastic job. Sometimes you have to grow something top down & some other times bottom up.
Let them figure out the management & growth strategies, you just go out and shoot and have fun.
If you want to standardize the sport you need to standardize the rules ( even if its barricade bench rest), so some outlaw sniper match rules were not included understandably. Altus is hosting a match to satisfy that need in some. Go shoot them, maybe that will be another series if we encourage it.
Production limits were increased because the gap between an off the shelf RPR/Tikka vs a Custom MPA/MDT is so much that the entry level shooter will get dejected & quit. I saw some first year shooters with a PPR or PMR finish top 10 in local club matches & that is good.
Shannon & Julie do a fantastic job. Sometimes you have to grow something top down & some other times bottom up.
Let them figure out the management & growth strategies, you just go out and shoot and have fun.
Maybe it's about turf and controll.
The usual things that taint competitions of any kind throughout the ages.
The usual things that taint competitions of any kind throughout the ages.
Same shit in skeet, same shit in trap, same shit in any sanctioned sport....there are always people who are discontented and that's just life.
Cheers
Cheers
Probably getting outshot by 12 go’s.
…especially if it’s a girl.
Hasn’t placed last or close at any Mach shes shot and shes gaining ground on middle of the pack.
Spotting targets getting ready for the station.
…especially if it’s a girl.
Hasn’t placed last or close at any Mach shes shot and shes gaining ground on middle of the pack.
Spotting targets getting ready for the station.
There was a hubub if I remember rightly (all the podcasts tend to merge together) about some of the leagues (PRS included) not playing nice with each other. Like if you shot one you couldn't shoot the other.
--This is kinda a fogey recollection, so I may be taking things out of context.
There is also the standard criticism, drama llamas (see also: USPSA, IDPA), etc... USPSA has been a dumster fire for a couple years now in terms of drama, but the matches roll on. IDPA had a cookie and was told to go die on the streets elsewhere.
Frank does talk/criticise PRS, but I think that is more towards the goal of improving it as the dominate league (three steps and a prop etc, known ranges). That's not hate at all.
And of course, I could be totally off base and some late drama fired off in recent days.
"Do you wanna [shoot] or don't you?" --Dale Earnhardt
--This is kinda a fogey recollection, so I may be taking things out of context.
There is also the standard criticism, drama llamas (see also: USPSA, IDPA), etc... USPSA has been a dumster fire for a couple years now in terms of drama, but the matches roll on. IDPA had a cookie and was told to go die on the streets elsewhere.
Frank does talk/criticise PRS, but I think that is more towards the goal of improving it as the dominate league (three steps and a prop etc, known ranges). That's not hate at all.
And of course, I could be totally off base and some late drama fired off in recent days.
"Do you wanna [shoot] or don't you?" --Dale Earnhardt
Original field matches, or "snipe-core matches" were just that, ex-mil shooters, reliving the glory days. "Best job I've ever had".
Pack for 2 days, sleep in the rain, lots of UKD, and quasi rogaine style events.
If that's what competitors wanted, that's what would be happening. Assassin's way perhaps ?
It's impractical to do that every weekend, or even every month. Maybe every quarter as a legit competition. I'm going to add that the entry level required to even enter is high enough that I believe only 10% of (Australian) competitors in PRS would even pass a qualifying event for something of that style. It's hugely intimidating for new people to this sport. They want to learn the basics on baracades, positions, gear, how to move, transition, etc. Throwing them into a 2 day camping "run what you brung" event, no one would join. No one wants to finish last and look like shit cos they don't understand the rules / game.
My take on it is this. The majority of people who complain (who I listen to) want to ELEVATE shooters, not turn them into bench shooters. Most people on this forum can shoot, and shoot well. Small groups, on demand, in most any weather condition, prone, bench, or whatever.
This means that people ("complainers") are not truly complaining, they are frustrated that we as a community are not progressing this section of the fraternity.
Pack for 2 days, sleep in the rain, lots of UKD, and quasi rogaine style events.
If that's what competitors wanted, that's what would be happening. Assassin's way perhaps ?
It's impractical to do that every weekend, or even every month. Maybe every quarter as a legit competition. I'm going to add that the entry level required to even enter is high enough that I believe only 10% of (Australian) competitors in PRS would even pass a qualifying event for something of that style. It's hugely intimidating for new people to this sport. They want to learn the basics on baracades, positions, gear, how to move, transition, etc. Throwing them into a 2 day camping "run what you brung" event, no one would join. No one wants to finish last and look like shit cos they don't understand the rules / game.
My take on it is this. The majority of people who complain (who I listen to) want to ELEVATE shooters, not turn them into bench shooters. Most people on this forum can shoot, and shoot well. Small groups, on demand, in most any weather condition, prone, bench, or whatever.
This means that people ("complainers") are not truly complaining, they are frustrated that we as a community are not progressing this section of the fraternity.
building on what @iceng is saying, PRS style matches have only really started to grow in the last 10 years. Its still in its infancy. Compared to things like shotgun leagues and handgun leagues, PRS-style is really in its infancy as a 'national' sport. Sure there were (and still are) lots of 1-off matches. But if I move from say Florida to Washington, all my shotgun, handgun stuff transfers as that is a 'universal rules' type league. Rifle had nothing of the sort. Plus there does seem to be some competition friction I sense between NRL/PRS
So a lot of PRS is growing pains. That's not a bad thing--its a healthy discussion of where should the sport go. RIfles is probabably the least advanced in terms of shooting sports or probably more appropriately 'most specialized'. While there is always the gear race, and the poors, there has got to be a place to allow people to grow into the sport and rifles is a special challenge (IMHO). You can show up to a match with a Glock or a Rem 870 in other sports and its cool. May not be the best, but you can run the course.
Now I want to shoot rifles, and I show up with a popular rifle: a 30-30 or lets say a stock Rem 700 30-06. You are fucked from step 1. That's the challenge of PRS--if you show up with your deer rifle, you can't even really be competitive. Then you got Annie Oakly up there shooting dimes at 1000 yards and she wants a challenge. There is a HUGE breadth of equipment and skills that rifles bring a unique challenge too. Think about it--most (bolt) rifles don't even come with magazines these days. How far behind the curve is that? You'd almost be better served to have ARs, BUT of course Bolts dominate, even though your stock AR and a scope is probably much more capable than your deer rifle (for PRS) because it at least has heard of that new fangled 'detachable magazine' concept from the 1920s (and of course, besides us blind weirdos, who has a 10X scope on their AR! Its a damn assualt rifle--red dot bby!!)
In fact I know there is resistance to divisions, but maybe PRS does need a "Production" division with 5 round limits so the local guy with his deer rifle has gear to start. I personally hate the 10 round prod limit in IDPA and USPSA, but make no miskate--thats where a ton of beginners started and until carry optics came along the #1 division of USPSA. We make fun of PCC, but maybe a stock AR division too--everyone has an AR....
Anyway long winded "Good story" from some rando
So a lot of PRS is growing pains. That's not a bad thing--its a healthy discussion of where should the sport go. RIfles is probabably the least advanced in terms of shooting sports or probably more appropriately 'most specialized'. While there is always the gear race, and the poors, there has got to be a place to allow people to grow into the sport and rifles is a special challenge (IMHO). You can show up to a match with a Glock or a Rem 870 in other sports and its cool. May not be the best, but you can run the course.
Now I want to shoot rifles, and I show up with a popular rifle: a 30-30 or lets say a stock Rem 700 30-06. You are fucked from step 1. That's the challenge of PRS--if you show up with your deer rifle, you can't even really be competitive. Then you got Annie Oakly up there shooting dimes at 1000 yards and she wants a challenge. There is a HUGE breadth of equipment and skills that rifles bring a unique challenge too. Think about it--most (bolt) rifles don't even come with magazines these days. How far behind the curve is that? You'd almost be better served to have ARs, BUT of course Bolts dominate, even though your stock AR and a scope is probably much more capable than your deer rifle (for PRS) because it at least has heard of that new fangled 'detachable magazine' concept from the 1920s (and of course, besides us blind weirdos, who has a 10X scope on their AR! Its a damn assualt rifle--red dot bby!!)
In fact I know there is resistance to divisions, but maybe PRS does need a "Production" division with 5 round limits so the local guy with his deer rifle has gear to start. I personally hate the 10 round prod limit in IDPA and USPSA, but make no miskate--thats where a ton of beginners started and until carry optics came along the #1 division of USPSA. We make fun of PCC, but maybe a stock AR division too--everyone has an AR....
Anyway long winded "Good story" from some rando
First year in PRS this year and had a blast. At least in my area, didn't hear any of what the OP raises. But I do* think there's a lot of truth in what Doc RDS brings up in terms of gear needed to be competitive, and it's essentially a barrier to entry to the sport for many folks. IF the goal is to grow the sport, seems we need to remove as many barriers to entry as possible.
As a shooter, you’re allowed to shoot either one.
It was aimed at the match directors, stating if you held a PRS sanctioned match, you couldn’t hose an NRL match that year, or vise versa.
Or something like that.
I’ve shot both NRL and PRS matches in the same year, no issues.
Like I said turf war and controll.
It's not about growing the shooting sport$.
It's not about growing the shooting sport$.
This makes a lot of sense. I didn't realize it, but PRS was in a precarious state this last year in my region (UT). A lot of burnt out match directors, lack of support, etc. Hosting matches is not as fun as shooting.
Add drama on top of it, and I could see some people quitting and putting up a fuss about it.
Seems like shooters are happy. The people with the thankless jobs are the ones who are getting worn thin.
Pro tip - after a match, ask the MD if he/she needs help with taking things down, etc.
I would love to shoot an NRL match but none in the North east or New England regions. Don't think we have ranges capable of hosting them at all. But plenty of PRS matches and happy PRS shooters.
Fudd-class has simple entry for anyone. Bring your rem700 in 30-06 as @DocRDS said, and you are good to go. Hunter class, open, prod, whatever. They are not very welcoming (in my region) but they tolerate new shooters. If you shoot PRS style events or have a muzzle brake, then you can't even use the clubhouse toilets (no, I'm not kidding.)
Look at any driving sport. F1, MotoGP, NASCAR, etc. Things evolve. They become too tier, and there are feeder competitions. Are we suggesting we need a sub-comoetition for new shooters to act as a training ground or feeder ?
Isn't that just training classes and local club ?
If someone rocks up with a old AIA bolt action in 308, they can run it. Hell, we had it this past weekend.
Look at any driving sport. F1, MotoGP, NASCAR, etc. Things evolve. They become too tier, and there are feeder competitions. Are we suggesting we need a sub-comoetition for new shooters to act as a training ground or feeder ?
Isn't that just training classes and local club ?
If someone rocks up with a old AIA bolt action in 308, they can run it. Hell, we had it this past weekend.
Staying to help teardown and storage should be the expectation.
It is so in other prop-heavy sports that I'm familiar with (USPSA and IDPA). People who routinely bail as soon as they are done shooting get noticed and not in a good way.
Help is also needed to setup, if you're able.
A couple of years ago Texas Precision Matches hosted The Best in Texas Match (PRS) and the NRL Finale. Both were well attended. It’s a shame if the promotions are forcing MDs to pick one or the other.
Yeah don't even bother bringing a muzzle brake or a detachable box mag to a fudd-class range out my way if you actually want to shoot when those grumpy old fucks are around.
Tough thing is that NRL match attendance has really fallen off a cliff. I'd like to support an alternative with NRL, but they have an extremely limited number of events, and attendance at the matches they do host have been trending lower and lower (<50 shooters at multiple matches this year).
Unfortunately the market has chosen, and it doesn't seem like NRL is going to hold on for much longer.
Unfortunately the market has chosen, and it doesn't seem like NRL is going to hold on for much longer.
I wish they'd do one day matches like prs does. I think partnering with border wars might be a step in that direction.
It feels like they've ditched their 2 day format and are going full nrl Hunter. I wish they'd open that to one day matches as well.
2 day matches are awesome, but getting away from a family with 3 small children for a whole weekend is pretty hard...
I’m in the same boat with an 18 month old and other demands on time. NRL partnered with Border Wars, but that doesn’t seem to have gone anywhere, and with no incentive to participate other than shooting an affiliated match.
PRS has a good concept that the 1day regional series still allows for qualification into the PRS Finale, which is really cool. Plus it serves as a type of “minor leagues” as complementary to the 2 day national series. There might be a lot of complaints about PRS, but it does seem like they are trying to make a more well-run, coordinated series.
I been wanting to get involved with PRS so I asked a friend who competes his opinion. In his view it has become to commercialized. He also said in the last 10 years it’s has become a rich man’s sport much like golf. His point being you can buy a significant amount of accuracy. Meaning that someone who has a for instance, a off the shelf target rifle such as a RPR or A Savage 110 precision rifle. Will never be able to compete with someone who can put 15k in a rig. Skill level being the same. Unfortunately it’s not attracting new shooters. He also commented that most people were rude to new guys wanting to learn the sport.
I feel like there are new shooters pretty often, but it's not about competing with the guys running $15k rigs that's not keeping them in the game.
It just beats you to death to show up with your 13lbs 6.5 Creedmoor that you just dropped "a ton" of money into, only to make less that 25/80 hits in a squad where everyone else is throwing a fit for not getting a clean. Seriously, some of the stages meant to challenge seasoned shooters with a balanced rifle and knock off 1-2 points from their score are turning out zeroes to the new guys with an RPR. Zeroing a stage is soul crushing.
framer, just get out and shoot a couple of matches and see for yourself if you like it or not. like in any sport, nice gear helps but a lot of it is on the competitor. if you can't hold that $15k rig steady, you're not going to do well. i don't shoot a ton of prs matches but most folks i've seen welcome newbies and are happy to give advice and loan gear (bags etc). if you don't have any or all of the gear now, then just go spectate a match and that will give you a feel for whether you'll like it or not.
I appreciate the advice guys. I’ve never been to one nor do I know how there scored. I’m just with a group of guys in SC who are fortunate enough live but 2 ranges which go out 1000 yards and 1400 yards. So we are able to shot a lot and wonder how we would be in match of some sort.
This is true. Everyone wants to share gear. I've borrowed and loaned tripods, spotting gear, bags, etc. Heck, at a recent match a guy's rifle went down with a squib load, and ended up borrowing a whole rifle for the last few stages.
If zeroing a stage crushes your soul, you have bigger problems.
Example: Odds are ...you are a pussy
Example: Odds are ...you are a pussy
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Who on earth is running a $15,000 rig? And if new shooters are treated poorly, that is a serious problem.
My intent is to make new shooters feel welcome and progress in the sport. If your club isn’t doing that, it’s time to find a new one.
My intent is to make new shooters feel welcome and progress in the sport. If your club isn’t doing that, it’s time to find a new one.
This has been the opposite of my experience. Most of they guys I’ve shot with would loan a new shooter anything short of their wives. And even then, maybe… And, beyond a price point, shooters are buying preferences and not accuracy. If you have a 1moa gun (honest moa, not ‘if I do my part’), you can be competitive. A RPR, Vortex Razor, and match quality ammunition in the hands of a top 5 shooter is still going to generate a high finish.
really the biggest thing is having good dope (knowing where you will hit at various distances. so with your 2 ranges, you have an excellent opportunity to do that! generally you'll start behind a prop (railing, fence post, log, barrel, etc) and then have maybe 90 seconds to hit maybe 5 different targets at maybe five different distances. you'll have to dial or hold for those different distances, generally your choice. something like that. your score is your # of hits in those 90 seconds.
read thru the rulebook. at the end they have a couple of 'standards' stages you can set up and try at your ranges.
The only limiting factor might be caliber choice. If you're shooting a 6mm and your gun is heavy, it helps a lot to spot your misses or make corrections.
Take a mid pack shooter with a RPR in 30Hate and switch rifles with a top 10 finisher at the finals that shoots a 6mm whizbanger. The mid pack shooter may pick up a few points, but the top guy/gal is still going to mop the floor with him...
You're absolutely right - I'm just saying a new shooter picking up 5 or 6 points might be the difference between feeling dejected and giving up, or deciding to stick with it and improve.
I have found the sport very welcoming, and rpr and savage 110 are pretty accurate off the shelf, the money you spend on the more expensive rifles dont make up for lack of skill. now if you were talking about a remington 700 in a hogue stock with a hunting scope, ya youre gonna take a beating against most other rifles.
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