The WyCo PRL match's will be something I will probably be doing next year. Shot the finale for fun and the suppressor only match. Everything is localish to me and those two matches were great. Gives a justification to upgrading my AI as well lol
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Why is everyone mad at PRS
- Thread starter Skylvia
- Start date
Same reason the Toyota Camry we drive cannot beat the Camry Kyle Busch drives
I’m pretty sure I was squadded with you at the Kestrel match and we all talked openly about wind in our squad, even the guys competing (which I was definitely not, either day). It’s just a reality that wind was swirling, so what worked on shot 1 wasn’t the same as shot 9. I had fun sucking, and hope to shoot with you again soon. (You drove with enclosed trailer from S FL right?)
That was a fun match, my first two day match.
Humbling.
Yes. Me also. I need to look at the schedule.
I agree that if the market won’t support a match it shouldn’t exist. I also have a problem with predatory anti-competitive practices. Those shouldn’t exist in a free market either. I’ll reiterate that if PRS is really strong-arming MDs, that’s weak sauce.
In which case, the MD should say “f- that”, host a match anyways and put on the best match they can.
If it’s a question of not getting major sponsors for a prize table, cash prizes and trophies are also always an option too. Plenty of local and regional matches dont have prize tables, and they do well.
From the cheap seats up here in snow Mexico Rimfire land, prize tables based on podiums mean I probably wouldn’t participate. Like entering a dance contest; I don’t need a judge to know I suck. Random draw prize tables even everything out. As far as “sponsorships” go, ammo costs covered would be great; travel would be winning the lottery. The large volume of shooters are like Walmart shoppers. If there isn’t large numbers into the bottom of the org, it will either and die.
A match director / club should not have that hurdle in the first place.
One club or association going out of their way to make life difficult for another club or association is pathetic.
If a larger governing body releases a calendar of events, schedule, and such for an entire year, and sticks to it, then all the shooters who wish to attend can plan for it, practice, source gear / components, and accommodation with other, etc..
If a smaller club who runs similar style competitons doesn't look into conflicts, then they are stupid.
In Australia when the grand final for football is on, or Bathurst weekend (like Indy 500 ??) No clubs of any sort really plan anything. Swimming carnival, huge retail sales weekend, etc. Everyone knows that we sit at home, drink beer and watch tv and have a BBQ with mates. Even the bottl'os (places which sell booze) have sales a few days prior, to allow people to plan..
One club or association going out of their way to make life difficult for another club or association is pathetic.
If a larger governing body releases a calendar of events, schedule, and such for an entire year, and sticks to it, then all the shooters who wish to attend can plan for it, practice, source gear / components, and accommodation with other, etc..
If a smaller club who runs similar style competitons doesn't look into conflicts, then they are stupid.
In Australia when the grand final for football is on, or Bathurst weekend (like Indy 500 ??) No clubs of any sort really plan anything. Swimming carnival, huge retail sales weekend, etc. Everyone knows that we sit at home, drink beer and watch tv and have a BBQ with mates. Even the bottl'os (places which sell booze) have sales a few days prior, to allow people to plan..
You guys need to shoot our matches in north Texas. I’ve had to cap the number of shooters due to the size of our range and we almost always sell out. Our matches aren’t easy, but the newer shooters hang in there and do their best. I’ve been trying to take 5 minutes before the match to have a top-level shooter give a short lesson on technique or tactics.
At our finale, all of the prizes were donated from our local pro shooters. Only “non-pro” shooters were eligible for prizes, and we started from last place and went up from there.
If you guys want to grow the sport, don’t blame someone else for not doing it. Try running your local club series matches and mentoring the new guys. That’s what keeps folks interested in the sport.
At our finale, all of the prizes were donated from our local pro shooters. Only “non-pro” shooters were eligible for prizes, and we started from last place and went up from there.
If you guys want to grow the sport, don’t blame someone else for not doing it. Try running your local club series matches and mentoring the new guys. That’s what keeps folks interested in the sport.
Next time in in USA, Im gonna try to stay a week or 2 longer and shoot a match somewhere, most likely after shot show (or similar, not going in Jan, coz our boarders are fuked up, plus flights are insanely expensive currently).
Seems like you guys in North-Tex seems to have it worked out.
We often squad pro's with rookies and use a buddy system to help them for club matches.
Also, I'm Aussie, so I'll need a translator. We speak kinda weird.
Seems like you guys in North-Tex seems to have it worked out.
We often squad pro's with rookies and use a buddy system to help them for club matches.
Also, I'm Aussie, so I'll need a translator. We speak kinda weird.
That's an interesting way to do it. The lessons at the beginning are a great idea.
I like prize tables that aren't linked to placement. Our local club in the NE shoots around 10 matches a year, and 50ish shooters make it to the Finale. The finale is a pretty good prize table, and it's completely random draw.
Random is always awesome. Awards for actual placement is important, so often a custom made morale patch, or basic trophy (I like patches personally), but actual prizes, random.
The top end shooters have most of their gear sorted, or have sponsor / allegiance to some company, and newer shooters benefit from free stuff like bags, bipods, projectiles, scope rings, etc..
The top end shooters have most of their gear sorted, or have sponsor / allegiance to some company, and newer shooters benefit from free stuff like bags, bipods, projectiles, scope rings, etc..
I am happy that its working for you. Sounds like you guys have a good group and an enjoyable venue to shoot.
But for the 15th time since reading comprehension seems to be in short supply in this thread; What works in the SE or Texas or any other much higher densely populated areas is not a blue print for other areas. To get 40 or 50 people to show up, you are drawing from a 3-400 mile radius. We spend more in gas than you spend in Ammo and match fees just to get there.
Our matches are 2-5 hours at a minimum from any major population center.
Also, one league trying to cockblock other leagues from even being able to have a match is the major issue. Its hard to "grow" the sport when the Biggest player is doing everything in its power to kill the sport in this region. In their view if they can't "win" then nobody should.
Do you have people driving 5 or 6 hours each way to shoot your Matches? If not i guess your match must not be that great right? Ours do, so match quality is not the problem.
And as far as prizes go, Last 1 day match in middle of nowhere with 45 shooters who showed up because it was wet and cold... They raffled off about $5K worth of gear from leupold and some other vendors. Match fees totaled less than $2500. People don't come for the prizes but it just goes to show you how NRL and the MD are working to benefit the shooters as much as possible.
So if you wouldn't mind, please stop conflating the issues. No one in here needs to be preached to by someone who doesn't even understand the root issue.
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That's the way it should be.
Trophies & Cash for the Winners
Prize table is walked via random raffle with Kids and RO's given extra tickets/chances.
I bet most sponsers and donators would be highly in favor of this method, and more likely to donate more gear if this was the norm; even if some of the top shooters would bitch and cry that they don't get to sell a $3K scope when their sponser already gives them a few for free.
As a sponsor of PRS, this..
As a sponsored shooter, I can 100% say that except for *maybe* the very, very top 5-10 shooters…..
Sponsored shooters don’t get nearly the amount of free stuff many seem to think.
Sponsored shooters don’t get nearly the amount of free stuff many seem to think.
And over the years, I’ve specifically asked owners of companies about their preferences of how prizes are given out. As a shooter and a match director I have asked. And now owning part of some companies.
Most have said they don’t actually care how the prizes are given out. The ones that do usually specify.
Most have said they don’t actually care how the prizes are given out. The ones that do usually specify.
TBH prizes are not even the issue or the subject of this thread. It is drifting.
Ohio is a good example of the PRS fuckery. 2022 is proving to be a dead zone for two day matches when previous years there were a handful. Most interesting maneuver was the last two day I shot, another MD held a one day money match specifically to undercut the two day match that was a short trip away. Shannon was aware and did nothing. Lost what little respect I had left for PRS.
The top guys and other shooters were normally very friendly so I didn’t have any bad experiences when I started a few years ago. The issues I have had I just stated. Arbitration is a huge problem. Find it amazing that the same guys over and over have issues with their scores being recorded wrong, when the group of guys I shoot with rarely have this issue. I think we all know what’s going on with that.
PRS went from something I enjoyed to being a hard pill to swallow. My first bigger match was a Guardian match, planning on going back to that
The top guys and other shooters were normally very friendly so I didn’t have any bad experiences when I started a few years ago. The issues I have had I just stated. Arbitration is a huge problem. Find it amazing that the same guys over and over have issues with their scores being recorded wrong, when the group of guys I shoot with rarely have this issue. I think we all know what’s going on with that.
PRS went from something I enjoyed to being a hard pill to swallow. My first bigger match was a Guardian match, planning on going back to that
The truth is, it’s the large volume of enthusiasts and amateurs, rather than pros, that drive and support any organization that can effectively interest sponsors. If the orgs are just “preaching to the choir”, what benefits do sponsors get from exposure? Social media allows quite a bit of BS inflation of the actual impact of a few dozen chronic shooters patting each other on the back, but that lasts as long as a stiffie after the deed is done. When a random wannabe gets drawn for a Razor or an ACC off the prize table because he showed up and burned some powder, it’s like a barmaid winning on a scratchie ticket at the end of her shift. All the other girls pour their tips into the vending machine in hopes of nirvana.
Our matches do pretty good. In five 5 years we went from no matches to an average of 80+ shooters at every match with April, May and June regularly filling up with 120 and then a few on the waiting list. We have no prize tables except the finale. We've run a "team" match, where an experienced shooter coaches a new shooter.
It's all about building a community. We invite new guys out with us after matches. Encourage participation in working groups. We get together during the off season.
Because of the community we've worked to build, we pull people from Michigan, Minnesota, Illinois, Indiana and Missouri. Even some from Kentucky from time to time. I believe we've had a Kansas shooter or two but I could be mistaken. Wisconsin has strong showings in the surrounding states as well. Several of our shooters travel 5+ hours to one day matches in the states in the region on a regular basis.
Our MD and his wife also put in a ton of work. I'd stack our one day matches up against any two day match in the country without hesitation.
Yes, we are part of the PRS. Yes, it's probably helped with marketing but I'm confident we could stand alone and still do well. Our community up here has put the work in at the ground level to build something and it shows. It's easy to complain about the short comings of any organization. And there are many at the PRS. But at the end of the day, you get out of this, what you put in. We made the shooting/match portion the smallest part and it has made us better for it.
It's all about building a community. We invite new guys out with us after matches. Encourage participation in working groups. We get together during the off season.
Because of the community we've worked to build, we pull people from Michigan, Minnesota, Illinois, Indiana and Missouri. Even some from Kentucky from time to time. I believe we've had a Kansas shooter or two but I could be mistaken. Wisconsin has strong showings in the surrounding states as well. Several of our shooters travel 5+ hours to one day matches in the states in the region on a regular basis.
Our MD and his wife also put in a ton of work. I'd stack our one day matches up against any two day match in the country without hesitation.
Yes, we are part of the PRS. Yes, it's probably helped with marketing but I'm confident we could stand alone and still do well. Our community up here has put the work in at the ground level to build something and it shows. It's easy to complain about the short comings of any organization. And there are many at the PRS. But at the end of the day, you get out of this, what you put in. We made the shooting/match portion the smallest part and it has made us better for it.
Its damned important.
I have seen it in other sports, especially the former elephant in the room which has now become the ant in the middle of the highwway, Water skiing.
When you (your organization) go otu of your way make sure your elites get all the attention, get all the care, get everything their little hearts desire, and “get a fuck the little guy attitude” even when the elites don’t demand or request it….pretty soon the little guy goes away and the organization is a top heavy raft that soon capsizes and sinks.
Emerson, its right and good that the little wanna be, who showed up and paid his money does get the Razor, what top pro really needs another scope from a builder who competes with his sponsor? It Is the wanna be that pro-am sorts really needs to be taken care of. They buy the stuff and pay the entry fees that keep the thing going.
I have seen it in other sports, especially the former elephant in the room which has now become the ant in the middle of the highwway, Water skiing.
When you (your organization) go otu of your way make sure your elites get all the attention, get all the care, get everything their little hearts desire, and “get a fuck the little guy attitude” even when the elites don’t demand or request it….pretty soon the little guy goes away and the organization is a top heavy raft that soon capsizes and sinks.
Emerson, its right and good that the little wanna be, who showed up and paid his money does get the Razor, what top pro really needs another scope from a builder who competes with his sponsor? It Is the wanna be that pro-am sorts really needs to be taken care of. They buy the stuff and pay the entry fees that keep the thing going.
The way this is avoided as a “civil issue” is specific to how it’s “said”.
If a club wants to hold a 2-day qualifier which is where the draw and money would come from, it can be denied without a reason stated or just state sorry no more slots available due to “over saturation”.
Qualifier matches are given to those “loyal” to an organization.
Again, what is going in your AO has nothing to do with the issues in this thread. Its has NOTHING to do with what other regions are dealing with.
Cool your club is a PRS club. You mean the PRS is not trying to kill PRS sanctioned events that line its pockets and further its goals? One in a region that has almost zero competition from competing leagues/affiliations?
Several shooters is not the same as the MAJORITY of the shooters having to travel that same distance. Look at the population in a 400 mile radius around your match location and I will almost guarantee it has 3-5 times the population.
PRS does nothing to further the sport in this region. Its almost entirely the MD's along with a few leagues like RTC, NRL and some charity shoots. What they are doing is trying to kill those other leagues, even though they have no interest in replacing those lost events.
Between Washington, Oregon and Idaho there at least 16 (2) day matches planned for 2022. TWO of them are PRS. The vast majority of 1 day club matches are NRL Border Wars. PRS wants to kill these other leagues but is not replacing them or trying to supplement them. They are just telling the MD"s if you host a NRL or other event, you can't host PRS. This includes NRL22/PRS22. Maybe they are assuming they will convert them all to PRS since they will be the only option left. So in order to have the privileged of hosting a PRS22 or 1 day club match, you have turn away 90% of the actual business your club already does. And if you don't do that and PRS is successful in killing these other leagues, you are blacklisted and fucked.
If PRS wasn't such a shit run league on a national basis, the NRL would have never been started. This is a fact. Western shooters were not being represented and the matches are stale.
These responses are starting to sound like 2 things. Either people aren't smart enough to understand and discuss the issue or they have Shannon''s dick so far up their ass, he is using their mouths as a puppets.
If PRS is already the minority in the region, why are you all agitated over this? Seems like the 14+ other matches are doing fine, and the MDs haven't given in to the PRS "pressure". Your angry typing hasn't answered this.
Wow, this so much reminds me of the many issues and battles in NSSA skeet...which was ruined for me when I agreed to run (and dang it, I was elected too) for national and state level office.
I was much happier when I just showed up and shot and didn't know about stuff like is being discussed here wrt to PRS! haha
Cheers
I was much happier when I just showed up and shot and didn't know about stuff like is being discussed here wrt to PRS! haha
Cheers
I don't know why I am bothering since its already been explained but lets break it down at a 2nd grade level for those a little slow to keep up.
In the past, there was not an issue. PRS did not really put any effort into this region however, however MD's were allowed to run whatever they wanted when ever they wanted. PRS got their $3 per shooter or whatever it was. They expended no effort or money into the region, so other leagues took over the majority of the 1 day matches.
This year, they are telling MD's and venues that they cannot do both. NRL does not have the critical mass and revenue due to alot of factors, mostly being new, not having the same sponsorship level (and it wouldn't suprise me if they are strong arming MD's, they may be doing same to Sponsers), and the west just having less shooters in a much larger geographical area. Remember PRS's short history, the league has gone bankrupt and given away a handful of times in the last 10 years before Shannon took over. Yes he has been able to sustain the league and create some consitencey but at what cost to the shooters? If you are in the PRS heartland great. Its all you know and its where PRS puts all its effort. If you aren't, well we don't care about you.
Its a catch 22 situation for the MDs. We as the shooters are the ones who will truly lose out. This is done in an effort to Kill NRL which will result in less matches and less variety for us all. Its also sends a big message to any would be promotion that if they try to start a new league or affiliation to fill that void, PRS will crush them, so don't even try.
Do you think MD's all over the country are happy the PRS fees go to grow K&M's facility? Money they instead could be using to improve their own facilities to make it a better place to grow the sport.
Its mosy about 1 day club matches but is PRS going to replace the 2 day bolt series matches we have out here? Not everyone wants to travel 1,000+ miles to shoot a match. Some of the best shooters in the nation come from this region and they are also going to get fucked hard as this will be more expensive for them to compete at a national level other than the finale. Most shoot both leagues but how is less matches good for anyone?
Insulting everyone who interacts with you is a poor way to build consensus or to gain sympathy for your point of view.
In fact, it might even turn off people who would otherwise agree with you.
@DeathBeforeDismount strikes me as the guy that complains about everything but never offers a solution. Wants to lay the blame at everyone else's feet. Then wonders why no one takes him seriously. He said it himself, the matches in his area are stale. That's the issue in his area. Notthe PRS.
Now that Michigan has lost its match for 2022, we're one of only two PRS matches within a day's drive, the other being in Indiana, in February; we're far from being the PRS heartland.
If you want your matches to be better, and have more participation. Stop bitching online and put the work in. Go recruit shooters. Encourage people to come out. Put together a loaner gun and gear program. Put the work into the facilities. We've done that and it's paid off. I've never seen Shannon and company up here recruiting shooters, helping on work days or going to other local ranges to spread the word. We, the shooters did that. Our club started on a 600, single lane square range that shot two stages simultaneously with two squads of 20.
Our first MD found a new piece of property that allowed 4 squads of 10 to shoot simultaneously. He and us shooters worked with the land owner to expand capabilities and resources. We put the work in at the ground level and built long lasting solid relationships that pay dividends over time. We've even gone as far as bringing in a second club/range to host matches at a different location. Guess what, that MD holds *gasp* Border Wars and outlaw matches with no issues or threats from the PRS. Maybe it's an upper midwest thing, we work with other people to solve problems rather than just complain.
Not sure why I typed that all out because he'll just skim over it, come up with some half assed insult and go on thinking he has all the answers.
Now that Michigan has lost its match for 2022, we're one of only two PRS matches within a day's drive, the other being in Indiana, in February; we're far from being the PRS heartland.
If you want your matches to be better, and have more participation. Stop bitching online and put the work in. Go recruit shooters. Encourage people to come out. Put together a loaner gun and gear program. Put the work into the facilities. We've done that and it's paid off. I've never seen Shannon and company up here recruiting shooters, helping on work days or going to other local ranges to spread the word. We, the shooters did that. Our club started on a 600, single lane square range that shot two stages simultaneously with two squads of 20.
Our first MD found a new piece of property that allowed 4 squads of 10 to shoot simultaneously. He and us shooters worked with the land owner to expand capabilities and resources. We put the work in at the ground level and built long lasting solid relationships that pay dividends over time. We've even gone as far as bringing in a second club/range to host matches at a different location. Guess what, that MD holds *gasp* Border Wars and outlaw matches with no issues or threats from the PRS. Maybe it's an upper midwest thing, we work with other people to solve problems rather than just complain.
Not sure why I typed that all out because he'll just skim over it, come up with some half assed insult and go on thinking he has all the answers.
Solution is simple, but you can't seem to read.
I never said the matches in this area are stale. I said the cookie cutter ones back east are. So stop lying and making shit up.
Solution:
Stop fucking working to destroy the other leagues. Its in everyone's best interest both short and long term for there to be more leagues, more venues more shooters. Grow the sport and we all win. Stop trying to destroy growth. The growth in this regions is almost entirely from NRL efforts as well as the MD's. PRS doesn't do shit, other than take money and gives nothing back.
People are scared to speak up. MD's are scared to speak up for fear or being blacklisted. Same shit happens with PRS ignores rules for their sponsored shooters like the retard that had a picture taken at AG cup with his chin resting on his barrel. So unless people start speaking up nothing will happen.
The last thing anyone needs is some ignorant asshole who doesn't understand the issues trying to throw cold water and argue with people who have legitimate gripes. Its dickheads like you either through pure ignorance or willfull reckleness that keep these types of conversations from gaining traction.
Our matches all have great turnouts. Considering how far the average person has to travel, we probably have better turnout than most of your matches. That is not the problem, but you refuse to use the 9 brain cells in your head to read this whole thread and try to understand from someone else perspective, who are dealing with completely different issues and circumstances than you are.
We have some of the nicest facilities in the nation. 20K arce ranches with a variety of stages and barricades most dream of. Not some square range manicured like a golf course.
Do you have NRL Border Wars and PRS 1 day matches scheduled at the same locations for 2022? Stop talking about how it was in the past. It was the same here UNTIL THIS YEAR. If you say Yes, then maybe they are just doing it to our region. If you say no, then you should care as well, but you don't because its hardly effects you.
They have tried to have a MD summit, PRS killed it. Why the fuck do you think NRL was created in the first place?
We don't need Shannon to help recruit here. We just need him to stop working to kill our fucking leagues because PRS is not going to fill that void. We can generate enough interest and growth on our own, but its very hard when the biggest League in the Nation is working against those interests. These competing leagues would have never even been created if PRS was doing a bare minimum adequate job of supporting the region. Our Regional NRL director comes to our matches and brings a bunch of swag and prizes. NEVER seen anyone from PRS do this.
This is my last post in this thread. Everything that needed to be said has been said. People can decide for themselves who to listen to.
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Running a match is not for the faint hearted. Stating the match directors should or should not bend to the pressure of sometimes selfish and sometimes desperate men is a harsh statement. You literally have to be there to understand.
Build it and they will come. Tried that and a few did. But it died and a piece of Brenda and I died with it. On a very hot day, we literally nearly did trying to set targets ourselves to save the three hundred dollars we would have to pay target setters. Worse, members of the club, people we never saw, never even showed up to even empty the garbage much less help us rebuild the range from a burned down, totally neglected, grown up mess. But sure enough, when they heard we took in some money (10% of what it took to get the range rebuilt and and the first match held) they ran up demanding their fair share of the “clubs” money. Don’t tell me about “do” instead of complain.
But don’t rain on me or petty me, we asked for it and we got exactly what we asked for. A couple of matches for the ages, then watched it die slowly, painfully and quite expensively. How many others have been in this same boat?
The answer is that we really have to all hang together or we will pretty much hang separately. Two separate organizations competing head to head just won’t work. One or the other will die or both. As mentioned before, its not the pros but the little fellows and ladies that will keep this going. One group or the other is going to have to step up and dedicate itself to building the base (farm team style) the other will cater to the tv and the best amateurs and pros. Otherwise, We will go the way of so many other sports, be great for a while but will struggle to be self sustaining.
Build it and they will come. Tried that and a few did. But it died and a piece of Brenda and I died with it. On a very hot day, we literally nearly did trying to set targets ourselves to save the three hundred dollars we would have to pay target setters. Worse, members of the club, people we never saw, never even showed up to even empty the garbage much less help us rebuild the range from a burned down, totally neglected, grown up mess. But sure enough, when they heard we took in some money (10% of what it took to get the range rebuilt and and the first match held) they ran up demanding their fair share of the “clubs” money. Don’t tell me about “do” instead of complain.
But don’t rain on me or petty me, we asked for it and we got exactly what we asked for. A couple of matches for the ages, then watched it die slowly, painfully and quite expensively. How many others have been in this same boat?
The answer is that we really have to all hang together or we will pretty much hang separately. Two separate organizations competing head to head just won’t work. One or the other will die or both. As mentioned before, its not the pros but the little fellows and ladies that will keep this going. One group or the other is going to have to step up and dedicate itself to building the base (farm team style) the other will cater to the tv and the best amateurs and pros. Otherwise, We will go the way of so many other sports, be great for a while but will struggle to be self sustaining.
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If you want to call me a liar, that's fine. But you may want to read your own posts first.
My posts aren't aimed at you or even guys like you. You've put time and money on the line to try to build something. Our MD is one of my closest friends and I get a pretty close up view of the amount of work it takes him. We volunteer as much as we do because of what he puts into it.
I know this is a super old thread, but what North TX matches are you referring to? I am in NTX and have been looking for some events to get involved in. Of course "North Texas" is still anywhere from 20 minutes to three hours of drive time between any given points lol
