Gunsmithing 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

[jason_mazzy]

I have been informed through a good military friend, that a friend of his makes custom sniper weapon systems from ar armalite ar 10's. I have spoke to him and he did a bunch for the marines and seals, and says they go 1/4 moa. I was told first it starts with the barrel, about $300 or so and then $400 in labor to get close to where he would be able to bring it to 1/4 or sub. I will be talking to him tomorrow at much greater detail and would like to sort the facts from the sales pitch. what can you guys tell me about doing this to an AR10? incurred costs? what parts? mill work? anything I am missing? I really appreciate your time and wisdom.

 

[smack]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

My factory Armalite was a big POS, so down the road it went.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

Tell him to build one meet him at the range with it, have him shoot a 5 shot group and if it goes 1/2 moa for $700 buy it on the spot. Otherwise bullshit walks.
Fill out your profile

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fill out your profile</div></div>
i thought I did, what am I missing and how do I do it.

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tell him to build one meet him at the range with it, have him shoot a 5 shot group and if it goes 1/2 moa for $700 buy it on the spot. Otherwise bullshit walks.
Fill out your profile</div></div>

wish I could do it like that. unfortunately the laws of courtesy, to my good friends family don't allow me that convenience. But if you could give me some advice and some knowledge on how one would try to accomplish this 1/4moa I would appreciate it.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

Cubic money plus finite gun plumbers squared to the infinite training degree in simple form.

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cubic money plus finite gun plumbers squared to the infinite training degree in simple form. </div></div>

well y didnt you say so? lol

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

It's all a sales pitch...

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

ps I grew up in san clemente, right next door to you sd ppl.

 

[jw1911]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

1/4 moa from ar10? when you do meet him at the range i want to be there for the 100 yard proving because 1/4 moa is going to be about .260 and since a .308 is well, .308... it wont fit. Not that he can't prove it at 200.

I don"t even own a bolt action that in my hands can shoot 1/4moa.

 

[Super Bee 950]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

JW. You measure from center of hole to center of hole, not the diameter of the hole....

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

so since most seem to think it would be near impossible to do, I'm assuming if he can do this it would cost and be worth a pretty penny.

 

[Rhys]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

If you go to see him take your hip waders

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

seems to me to be BS. The dropping of spec-ops people using his stuff is a real big clue. Look at it this way if you buddy knew more than the armorers for spec-ops teams than everyone would know about him and he would have build orders to fill for the rest of his life.

If you go ahead and have him build something for you, do it on a dpms platform becuase they tend to feed better and mags are cheaper and more abundant.

Also, I like the 1/4 moa guarantee. Just because it does it once by dumb luck it suddenly becomes the norm. Kinda like shooting prairie dogs and connecting at very long-range it is easy to brag up the hit and even easier to dismiss the 40 rounds it took to walk the shot in.

Ern

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

actually his brother a former marine turned me on to him. and he hates his brother. his brother was the one who told me about him making some for the marines and navy. He told me his brothers an asshole, a prick, will take his sweet time and do it whenever he wants too, would charge me alot and I wouldn't see it for months but it will be 1/4 MOA. LOL He basically says I hate him and he's a jerk, but he's great with an AR 10. When I called this info was a lil dated since it was about 2 or 3 years ago. He told me yesterday I was better off with the dpms platform, but he could do it to an armalite if he had to.

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

I hope no one takes this post as being hard headed or wanting to learn the hard way. as that is not my intention. just checking the possibility, probability and what it would take if it could be done.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

i would pass on this, for all the mentioned reasons above, if he has spec ops weapons in his "shop" he would be well known. I dont think that he could ring out 1/4 MOA out of an AR 10.

 

[308sako]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

the truth.

 

[SpotcheckBilly]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

I owned an AR10(T) for a few years. It was an accurate rifle, but certainly NOT a 1/4 MOA rifle, not even on its best days.

Some folks will shoot a five shot 100 yard group that will span 1/4 MOA and then claim that they have a 1/4 MOA rifle. Many of them will cut the group out of the target and carry it around in their wallet as a testimony to the accuracy of their rifle. That's known as a bragging group. Nintey-nine point nine - nine - nine percent of the time that group resulted from just plain dumb luck. It's a fluke and is not a true representation of that rifles accuracy. They'll probably never be able to duplicate it again. Claim that you're building a quarter-minute AR10 and you'd better be able to consistantly demonstrate it, day in and day out!

Show me a target with five, or better yet, ten of these groups on it, have that target dated and signed by several reliable witnesses, and maybe I'd start to believe it. Even better, let me witness that kind of performance personally and I'd get in line to buy one of those rifles, making absolutely sure to get the load info at the same time. Then, upon delivery of that rifle I'd insist on another range trip to make absolutely sure that my rifle performs as advertised before any money would ever leave my wallet.

That's how much I would trust anyone who claims to build 1/4 MOA AR10's (or DPMS versions), pretty much at any price.

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

thanx for the advice. if y'all had an armalite a2 and $1500 to spend on upgrades what would be realistic moa? sub 1/2 moa?

 

[deadly0311]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

1/2 MOA is reasonable. Why not sell your AR10 and get a DPMS SASS or armalite SuperSASS, both those are setup to shoot 1/2 MOA with the right driver

 

[utnapishtim]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

Somewhat along those lines, I just picked up an LR-308B with a timney trigger. I haven't shot it yet, but I'm wondering what I can do to make it as accurate as possible, and once done, what should I expect? Like the last post, is 1/2 MOA feasible? 3/4? 1? What's good for a DPMS? What's exceptional?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

Feasible with AR10 rifle is rarely reasonable to expect from the shooter.

People just don't shoot AR10 style rifle well, period. Most are lucky to consistently shoot 1 MOA on paper. Although they tend to do better at distance with them, <span style="font-style: italic">(steel has more real estate)</span> paper, at 100 always starts off disappointing the shooter. and believe me, its not all because of the rifle.

If you're looking to put a number on an AR10, I suggest you put a number on yourself first, and with that system, because its not same as shooting a bolt gun. It's much, much, less forgiving to shooter errors. And shooting an AR-15 type rifle inside 100 yards is not the same either, although most don't try for fancy .25 MOA groups.

The bottom line is, in the last year of teaching classes, I think I came across 2 people who I felt were 1/4 MOA shooter, everyone else hovered around 3/4 to 1/2 inch, with the 1/2 MOA guys being really, really good. But consider this, 70% at 2 MOA will win you any tactical / precision rifle match out there... so stop focusing on the guns and start focusing on the shooter.

Numbers are meaningless, and in the big picture it comes down to the fundamentals of marksmanship, and the fundamentals are 3X more important with an AR10, so if your not up for that, don't go thinking some sales pitch is going to rescue you.

 

[aj_brown]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JasonM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">actually his brother a former marine turned me on to him. and he hates his brother. his brother was the one who told me about him making some for the marines and navy. </div></div>

I don't know about the Marines, BUT I know he did not make any for the Navy.

Alan

 

[okiefired]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fng23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you go ahead and have him build something for you, do it on a dpms platform becuase they tend to feed better and mags are cheaper and more abundant. </div></div>

Thats a blanket statement and is basically BS, sorry. I've heard DPMS feeding issues discussed many times here. All my Armalites run like machines. Thats not saying no Armalite has any problems, all makes have problems from time to time but Armalites quality is as good or better than most. AR10's use m14 mags which are plentiful and cheap, Dremel a little square hole in the side and thier ready to go. I have about a half dozen and they work fine. If you buy Armalite made mags they are a bit steep, I just gave $150 for five which aint bad and they function flawlessly.

I've got lucky and shot .25 moa groups with my "T" but a .25 moa gun it aint. Closer to .75 on a good day now and its approching 3K rnds down the factory tube. Making one a no shit .25 moa gun might be possible but I have yet to see one personally and I doubt I ever will. BTW, a .25 moa gun will shoot .25 moa day in and day out every time, if it wont, its not a .25 moa gun.

If your wanting to get the most accurate AR10 you can, I'd advise you to have GAP or someone similar do the building. They are proven and would be money well spent. JMHO. Good luck and let us know what you come up with.

okie

 

[deadly0311]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJ Brown</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JasonM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">actually his brother a former marine turned me on to him. and he hates his brother. his brother was the one who told me about him making some for the marines and navy. </div></div>

I don't know about the Marines, BUT I know he did not make any for the Navy.

Alan </div></div>

yeah i know for a fact no one other than Knight has made or worked on any AR10, so you so called buddies friend is nothing more than full of shit.

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

wow hostile crowd. like i said second hand info from his marine brother. I will be calling and doing the information gathering. Like I said this thread is to help me sort truths from sales pitchor stretched promises. no reason to be hostile.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

No one is being hostile to you... people just read this bullshit every single day, it got old after about the 3 time we read in 2002.

 

[aj_brown]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

Could this be S1?

Alan

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

Wish I was around in '02 would have learned a bit more about sniping. I was in the sandbox and really didn't do much on the internet except occaisionally be able to write home. to be honest I never new there was so many ppl into sniping. I remember hearing about the AR-10 and its sniping potential while serving. was told its a great weapon system, and had remarkable potential to be sub 1/2 moa. So I recently had an oppurtunity to purchase, and am trying to sort out the many truths and fictions of what I've heard.

 

[sinister]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

I don't think there's hostility directed.

Some folks here do this stuff for a living and can separate fact from crap -- from personal experience.

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

I want one of those signatures. does it cost $10 just to make one? then $10 a month to keep it?

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think there's hostility directed.

Some folks here do this stuff for a living and can separate fact from crap -- from personal experience.


</div></div>

u were on the presidents 100? I remember the first time I seen some ppl wearing that. When I was a cherry I thought it was some elite sf group ahahahahh. I asked one of them exactly what they do and he said he was a competitive shooter for the Army. I was so let down LOL.

 

[Lindy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

I don't think I'm revealing anything much which his awards display doesn't show, but just for your information, Sinister commanded the United States Army Markmanship Unit.

When he says something, my experience has been that you can take it to the bank. I do.

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

thats great. its an accomplishment. I just had to stick with being a grunt. first at 75th hq, then 101st air assault, the only acomplishment I got was a fake hip, and some holes in my stomach. Well that and a few funny ribbons and badges lol.

 

[Rhys]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

In this case 1/4 MOA may be minute of Afghani

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

rofl!

 

[deadly0311]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

im kinda of usure what you are asking when you say sub 1/2 MOA, are you referring to sub MOA? I had an armalite Super SASS that would hold 1/2 to 1 MOA consistently, but this guy saying that he is going to do this and that and make it a 1/4 MOA gun, he is smoking crack. I think that you got the information that you needed when there were many people saying that it was possible but highly unlikely. The first thing that i would have to the guy i was going some where else with my rifle is when he used the sales pitch about working on AR10s for the Spec Ops community. And thanks for your service, there are a ton of us that have been there done that many a times. And most of these people weighing in on this have first hand experience with gas guns and AR10s as a tool in an operational status.

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im kinda of usure what you are asking when you say sub 1/2 MOA, are you referring to sub MOA? I had an armalite Super SASS that would hold 1/2 to 1 MOA consistently, but this guy saying that he is going to do this and that and make it a 1/4 MOA gun, he is smoking crack. I think that you got the information that you needed when there were many people saying that it was possible but highly unlikely. The first thing that i would have to the guy i was going some where else with my rifle is when he used the sales pitch about working on AR10s for the Spec Ops community. And thanks for your service, there are a ton of us that have been there done that many a times. And most of these people weighing in on this have first hand experience with gas guns and AR10s as a tool in an operational status. </div></div>

basically what I am saying is without shooter error. was it possible for the weapon to be able to be 1/4 MOA. Also like I said this was second hand info from his brother. I will ask him all about that stuff today and see what info he shoots me.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

Alan, it sounds very S1-ish, although he usually expects top dollar for his work, so i would expect his numbers to be much higher.

Jason,
Right there you have the guys that do the work for the Navy, and we all know the USMC is only fielding a small number of AR10s, so the odds of this "friend" making anything for the two units stated, at least in terms of military systems is false. That doesn't mean he hasn't made one or two for an individual, but his story has many holes in it.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

and i told you yes, but it is highly unlikely. Why do i say that, his first sales pitch, i worked on guns for the Marines and Navy, that should have sent up a bullshit flag immediately. But its your money you do with as you please, it kinda sounds like you are dead set on having this guy do it, go for it. Like others have said have him bring a rifle that he has worked on, have him tell you what he did to it, and then watch him shoot it, if it doesnt hold 1/4 MOA every group he shoots, then id thank him for his time and walk away

 

[Cartman]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

First, thank you for your service.

Second, if you think you can't ask for PROOF because it would be impolite to ask for that sort of thing from friends and family, don't you think that it would be impolite for him to ask for money from friends and family? If he's going to ask you for money, you can ask for a demonstration -- or several -- with no worry about being rude.

Third, if you think any of these responses were "hostile" you may be on the wrong forum -- because these have been about as nice and gentle as I've seen here given what you posted and how long you've been around here.

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and i told you yes, but it is highly unlikely. Why do i say that, his first sales pitch, i worked on guns for the Marines and Navy, that should have sent up a bullshit flag immediately. But its your money you do with as you please, it kinda sounds like you are dead set on having this guy do it, go for it. Like others have said have him bring a rifle that he has worked on, have him tell you what he did to it, and then watch him shoot it, if it doesnt hold 1/4 MOA every group he shoots, then id thank him for his time and walk away</div></div>

I am deaf not set on anyone. looking for everyone was doing some fact checking. I just spoke to him he says he hasn't done anything for the navy, did a few pieces for the marines, but mostly training with them on sniper stuff and mpost custom pieces for army. he said the weapon can be 1/4 moa. but its all the shooter, and the round. it was stated he shoots 1/4 moa and if he works on it, he will shoot 1/4 moa with it. He says but ur optics and rounds are some of the most important for doing this. And your teqnique has to be flawless. he said first thing I have to learn is hand loading, and load for my need and use. as far as stuff he mentioned that would be replaced first would be barrel with a custom broughton 5c to his specs. then it would be hand lap, and stress relieved. new trigger assembly, flatwire spring, heavy buffer and then some miscelanious stuff I couldn't write down fast enough. So does any of this sound like a step in the right direction?

 

[deadly0311]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

no, it doesnt. He was making to many excuses about how it gets to this magical 1/4 MOA, call George at GAP and he guarentees 3/8 MOA if it doesnt do that the rifle does NOT leave the shop. He never says anything about the shooter in his accuracy guarentee. The broughton barrel IIRC should come lapped and stress relieved. It sounds like he is trying to talk real big to pull some shit over your head, and use big technical terms. I would go elsewhere with your money. He never did any pieces that are USMC weapons, maybe personal weapons of Marines, but no USMC serialized rifles.

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cartman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First, thank you for your service.

Second, if you think you can't ask for PROOF because it would be impolite to ask for that sort of thing from friends and family, don't you think that it would be impolite for him to ask for money from friends and family? If he's going to ask you for money, you can ask for a demonstration -- or several -- with no worry about being rude.

Third, if you think any of these responses were "hostile" you may be on the wrong forum -- because these have been about as nice and gentle as I've seen here given what you posted and how long you've been around here.
</div></div>

no I plan on seeing proof. I will drive to MO. and take a look at what he can do before I let him work on it. He didn't ask me for a dime, his brother refered me to him and was telling me about his brother he dislikes, but is the best guntech he ever met. So before I went talking to him, I came here asking you guys what you thought. I have gotten some pearls of wisdom here so I'm happy. and would enjoy hearing more.

Now as far as this "given what you posted and how long you've been around here." stuff. I may not have been here long, but I've been around the world a time or two and happened to survive while brothers of mine didn't, and I ain't given you a lick of disrespect so don't throw any my way either. please.

Thank ya'll for your input. and please if there is more I am here to learn.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JasonM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote]



Now as far as this "given what you posted and how long you've been around here." stuff. I may not have been here long, but <span style="font-weight: bold">I've been around the world a time or two and happened to survive while brothers of mine didn't, and I ain't given you a lick of disrespect so don't throw any my way either. </span>please.

Thank ya'll for your input. and please if there is more I am here to learn.
</div></div>

i dont think that anyone has given you any disrespect, and as far as the service, thanks, but there are many of us here that have done exactly what you have done, and lost buddies as well. I know that i have, Frank(Lowlight) and alot of others have done the same things. You have been given honest opinions by people who know what they are talking about. This guy doesnt seem like he is going to do any good for you, i think its a waste of time and money to drive to MO to see what his rifles can do. But thats me, do as you please because at the end of the day you are paying for it not me

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

so is his first name "sam" by any chance ?

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

lou in MO.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

That's him... its S1

Don't even mention you were here cause he'll kook the hell out on you.

I'm not going to say anything else, but do what ever you want. Just know he has nothing good to say about anyone else.

 

[jason_mazzy]

Re: 1/4 moa out of armalite AR-10? ur input please

wait sam or lou is s1? and what the hell is s1? other than amilitary term.