Rifle Scopes 1-6x Optic for 3gun

skatz11

skatz11

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Jun 8, 2009
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#1
I've narrowed it down two three choices:
Razor 1-6
Bushnell 1-6.5 SFP
Khales K16i

Obviously the Khales is more expensive. My only concern is using their reticles for BDC.

I've played around with the Razor and Khales , but have no seen the Bushnell. Anyone have experience with all three?

Thanks,
Scott
 
#4
Run the Razor 1-6 and am very pleased with the performance. The extended eye relief and bright red dot make it a fast 3 gun scope. Haven't had it long enough to tell how it is going to hold up getting dumped in a barrel but by other reviews sounds like it will stand up fine. To get the most out of the extended eye relief of any of these top end scopes you'll need a extended mount. My Larue 104 wasn't enough. Had to go to the 139 E to get the scope far enough forward to take advantage of the extended eye relief.
 
#5
I like my Bushy SMRS a lot.
The Razor is a good bit heavier but I suspect the optics are better, too... but with only a top magnification of 6.5x. I doubt the optical difference is nearly as apparent as say comparing a DMR at 20x to a Razor HD at 20x.

CameraLand has some Razor II 1-6 JM1-BDC demo scopes for sale, $1200 shipped.
Vortex - Camera Land NY

Big Jim Fish has a multi scope review of 1-x scopes on "some other forum" that I probably shouldn't link. The forum is in question is dedicated to an evil black rifle.
I thought it was here on the Hide, but you'll have to find it yourself, sorry.
If you Google something like "variable, low power multipurpose scope review" you'll find it.
 
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#8
I had exactly the same question recently, and ultimately went with the Leupold Mk 6 1-6 CMR-W. It's got a known eye-box illumination problem... but I guess it indicates when you head is not in the right place... ;) (note: practice mount and cheek weld)
I suspect that the Trijicon VCOG is going to be slightly better when it finally comes out, as it doesn't have the eye-box illumination problem, but it also doesn't have the rest of the CMR-W reticle.
 
#12
I saw the Khales 1-6 at the Shot show it was sweet. I only got to look at it inside but I could tell it was top of the line and if you got the cash it seems like one of the best optics you could get in the 1-6 power range!
 
#16
I run a Swarovski Z6I BRT and a Vortex Razor 2 1-6.

The Swaro is lighter and the reticle is a bit more to my liking with wind marks and its in mils the power ring is also very easy to move compared to the Vortex. Now the Vortex I prefer the red center dot that is smaller than the Swaros amber 1.5 moa dot. Both scopes are clear and both have an excellent field of view. The Vortex has a very stiff power adjustment ring even with a cat tail is slow to move. That said I would recommend the Vortex to a new shooter as its $1000 dollars cheaper and nearly as good. If money is no object get the Swaro.
Pat
 
#18
This is an excellent resource. 1-x scopes have so many trade-offs that it's very hard to find one that does it all.

Performance as a red dot at 1x is really important for me because I prefer not to run a second optic or iron sights on the side. That means a forgiving eye box and preferably wide FOV, as well as real daylight bright illumination. This takes a lot of the competition out of the running.

As we all know from precision rifle optics, good glass can more than make up for lack of magnification. An excellent 4x (e.g. Elcan Specter DR) or 6x may be more useful on small targets than a mediocre 8x.

delixe said:
Big Jim Fish has a multi scope review of 1-x scopes on "some other forum" that I probably shouldn't link. The forum is in question is dedicated to an evil black rifle.
I thought it was here on the Hide, but you'll have to find it yourself, sorry.
If you Google something like "variable, low power multipurpose scope review" you'll find it.
Click to expand...
 
#19
Clusterfrack said:
This is an excellent resource. 1-x scopes have so many trade-offs that it's very hard to find one that does it all.

Performance as a red dot at 1x is really important for me because I prefer not to run a second optic or iron sights on the side. That means a forgiving eye box and preferably wide FOV, as well as real daylight bright illumination. This takes a lot of the competition out of the running.

As we all know from precision rifle optics, good glass can more than make up for lack of magnification. An excellent 4x (e.g. Elcan Specter DR) or 6x may be more useful on small targets than a mediocre 8x.
Click to expand...

I'm interested in this Optisan 1-6 scope that BJF designed the reticle for.
If the production units are as good as the prototype he tested, it's going to be an excellent scope. If it comes in at the price suggested in the review it's going to be a bargain, too.
Sniper's Hide » BigJimFish review of the Optisan CX6 1-6x24mm scope with Mudskipper 3 reticle of my design.
 
#20
delixe said:
I'm interested in this Optisan 1-6 scope that BJF designed the reticle for.
If the production units are as good as the prototype he tested, it's going to be an excellent scope. If it comes in at the price suggested in the review it's going to be a bargain, too.
Sniper's Hide » BigJimFish review of the Optisan CX6 1-6x24mm scope with Mudskipper 3 reticle of my design.
Click to expand...

He mentioned a 4 MOA shift in POI between 6x and 1x on that optic. That is a pretty large shift. Is that really a non-issue?
 
#21
If I were you I would save a little more money and get the Swarovski Z6i scope which is without a doubt the BEST 3-gun scope on the market, I have one and it has the best glass of any scope I have ever looked through plus it is a light scope 16oz. roughly. The Swarovski Z6i 1-6x is what most pros are using in the Heavy Metal 3-gun division or at least want to.
 
#24
Of the three you mentioned I would only consider the Vortex or the Kahles based on the brightness of their illlumination.

That being said I like the Kahles but I don't see the benefit of spending the extra $$$ when the Vortex is simply a very badass scope for 3 gun
 
#25
I run a Swaro Z6i. I much prefer the reticle in the Kahles and the Vortex is a great deal for the money.

Bottom line is that you are going to be happy with all of the scopes you mentioned. The bitch is picking the one you are going to like the best.
 
#27
Let's get real, guys. The Vortex Razor HD 1-6x is the steal of the litter. The only hurdles in your way of getting one is whether you like the reticle or not, the fact it is SFP, and it's a bit heavy. Awesome glass, excellent eye relief, built like a tank, big, beefy, precise adjustment knobs, backed by the best company in the business, and priced AT A BARGAIN for the quality you get. The magical sight picture / eyebox where the scopes tube practically disappears is a first for me in a Japanese scope, only Hensoldt and Karl Kaps have exhibited similar properties in my career. For 3-gunning, it's a dream come true. Some guy named Miculek might agree...ya know, he knows a thing or two about fast accurate shooting :)
 
#28
JRM83 said:
He mentioned a 4 MOA shift in POI between 6x and 1x on that optic. That is a pretty large shift. Is that really a non-issue?
Click to expand...

Kinda early to say how the production units will be,,, he was shooting a prototype, and plenty of prototypes have issues that are corrected once in production.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300TL using Tapatalk
 
#29
LibertyOptics said:
Let's get real, guys. The Vortex Razor HD 1-6x is the steal of the litter. The only hurdles in your way of getting one is whether you like the reticle or not, the fact it is SFP, and it's a bit heavy. Awesome glass, excellent eye relief, built like a tank, big, beefy, precise adjustment knobs, backed by the best company in the business, and priced AT A BARGAIN for the quality you get. The magical sight picture / eyebox where the scopes tube practically disappears is a first for me in a Japanese scope, only Hensoldt and Karl Kaps have exhibited similar properties in my career. For 3-gunning, it's a dream come true. Some guy named Miculek might agree...ya know, he knows a thing or two about fast accurate shooting :)
Click to expand...

Vortex's 1-4 was an FFP scope, and the evolution of that scope is the SFP Razor II 1-6. That says to me that from lessons learned with the 1-4 FFP, Vortex chose SFP as the appropriate reticle location for their improved version. Who is capable of using holds with an FFP scope dialed to 1x? I'll go SFP every time in a 1-x scope. I use my SFP 1-6.5 SMRS either at 1x or 6.5x, never in between, and I appreciate the added brightness of the illumination at 1x. If my SMRS was FFP, the illumination would be 1/42nd the brightness it is in my SFP. IMHO the weight is the only downside to the Razor II.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300TL using Tapatalk
 
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#30
delixe said:
Vortex's 1-4 was an FFP scope, and the evolution of that scope is the SFP Razor II 1-6. That says to me that from lessons learned with the 1-4 FFP, Vortex chose SFP as the appropriate reticle location for their improved version. Who is capable of using holds with an FFP scope dialed to 1x? I'll go SFP every time in a 1-x scope. I use my SFP 1-6.5 SMRS either at 1x or 6.5x, never in between, and I appreciate the added brightness of the illumination at 1x. If my SMRS was FFP, the illumination would be 1/42nd the brightness it is in my SFP. IMHO the weight is the only downside to the Razor II.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300TL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
The Vortex PST 1-4x24 is a SFP scope as well, and unless I was hiding under a rock somewhere, Vortex has never come out with a 1-?x scope in FFP. Vortex Optics - Viper PST 1-4x24 TMCQ (MOA)<br />Tactical

I stand corrected. I forgot about the old Razor. I guess I should crawl back under my rock!
 
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#31
The original Vortex Razor was an excellent scope but as mentioned the lack adequate brightness made the reticle damn near useless on 1x in bright sunlight.

In general I'm not a fan of 1x FFP scopes however the US Optics SR8 is an excellent execution of dot brightness coupled with a usable FFP reticle
 
#32
delixe said:
Vortex's 1-4 was an FFP scope, and the evolution of that scope is the SFP Razor II 1-6. That says to me that from lessons learned with the 1-4 FFP, Vortex chose SFP as the appropriate reticle location for their improved version. Who is capable of using holds with an FFP scope dialed to 1x? I'll go SFP every time in a 1-x scope. I use my SFP 1-6.5 SMRS either at 1x or 6.5x, never in between, and I appreciate the added brightness of the illumination at 1x. If my SMRS was FFP, the illumination would be 1/42nd the brightness it is in my SFP. IMHO the weight is the only downside to the Razor II.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300TL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I like FFP in 1-X because at 1X all the business of the reticle goes away and becomes a red dot (which I want at 1X) but when I dial to 4 or 6 or 8 I can utilize the reticle for holdover. I have zero desire to utilize holdover on 1 power therefore SFP scopes in 1-X are not for me. I do like the brighter illumination of SFP scopes though. I guess it just comes down to preference.
 
#33
delixe said:
Vortex's 1-4 was an FFP scope, and the evolution of that scope is the SFP Razor II 1-6. That says to me that from lessons learned with the 1-4 FFP, Vortex chose SFP as the appropriate reticle location for their improved version. Who is capable of using holds with an FFP scope dialed to 1x? I'll go SFP every time in a 1-x scope. I use my SFP 1-6.5 SMRS either at 1x or 6.5x, never in between, and I appreciate the added brightness of the illumination at 1x. If my SMRS was FFP, the illumination would be 1/42nd the brightness it is in my SFP. IMHO the weight is the only downside to the Razor II.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300TL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I respect the fact that you are enough of an independent thinker to reach your own conclusions. However, calling something universally appropriate because it aligns with your own opinion is ignorance.

I will never spend another penny on a SFP scope regardless of magnification but I appreciate the fact that they're still being manufactured and bought by people who prefer them.
 
#34
Kamkaze said:
I like FFP in 1-X because at 1X all the business of the reticle goes away and becomes a red dot (which I want at 1X) but when I dial to 4 or 6 or 8 I can utilize the reticle for holdover. I have zero desire to utilize holdover on 1 power therefore SFP scopes in 1-X are not for me. I do like the brighter illumination of SFP scopes though. I guess it just comes down to preference.
Click to expand...

For 3gun, how often would you use hold overs unless on max magnification? I use Z6is on my match rifles and I dont really ever use holdovers within 300 yards. If the shots are further than that, I'll be on 6x.

However, if someone were to come out with a 1-8 good enough to drop my Swarovskis, I'd probably want it in a FFP, as I can see using holder overs on less than 8x.
 
#35
gose said:
For 3gun, how often would you use hold overs unless on max magnification? I use Z6is on my match rifles and I dont really ever use holdovers within 300 yards. If the shots are further than that, I'll be on 6x.

However, if someone were to come out with a 1-8 good enough to drop my Swarovskis, I'd probably want it in a FFP, as I can see using holder overs on less than 8x.
Click to expand...

I'm agree with you I use 1x for the majority of everything and max power whether it be 4, 6 or 8 for holdovers, but when I am on 1x I don't want all the clutter of a holdover reticle so I prefer FFP so that the reticle essentially becomes a red dot at 1x and a holdover reticle on max power.
 
#36
There's no clutter really. The Vortex 1-6x reticle has a perfect size red dot, not to big or small, so turn it on and use it and the other parts of the reticle don't even come into play. I used mine again at the 3 Gun Nation Southeast Regional match this past weekend and it performed flawlessly.

I am a FFP guy for precision rifle optics but with the 3 gun use I actually prefer the SFP. When I am using the reticle and engaging long range steel then I am always on 6x. Anything closer like a dueling tree at 60 yards or plate rack at 100 you can dial down to like 2-3x and use the red dot and you know where you need to hold on the plate and aren't using any marks on the reticle.
 
#37
Rob01 said:
I am a FFP guy for precision rifle optics but with the 3 gun use I actually prefer the SFP. When I am using the reticle and engaging long range steel then I am always on 6x. Anything closer like a dueling tree at 60 yards or plate rack at 100 you can dial down to like 2-3x and use the red dot and you know where you need to hold on the plate and aren't using any marks on the reticle.
Click to expand...

Ditto. FFP on precision rifle, SFP on 3-gun. I run a Swaro Gen 2 1-6x for 3-gun. I haven't looked through anything else that sways me away. Dot is perfect for CQB blasting, and holdovers using the reticle aren't an issue until 300+, at which point I want the full 6x. Then, since the holdovers are mil-based, it's easy to do quick holds if you know your dope or have a drop chart. Usually dial in 2-4x for 50-200 yards depending on the sizes and spacing of targets, trying to balance visibility and FOV. Actually, I often forget to turn on the dot, but my eye is accustomed to shooting quickly with the cross hairs.
 
#38
+1 on the Vortex Razor 1-6 for 3gun.

The only "con" I've had with the scope is that if wind is crossing over 15mph and you are shooting 500 yards like we frequently do, the lack of windage reference can be a little disconcerting. But visualize target widths over and still good to go. The drop hashes are something like 8.75" at that drop distance so you have that to reference.

That is one nice perk I saw in the BigJimFish reticle on the Optisan proto review he did.....there are 10mph windage marks.

But the Vortex illumination is superb, which the Optisan and very few other scopes good for 3gun have.
 
#39
Kamkaze said:
I like FFP in 1-X because at 1X all the business of the reticle goes away and becomes a red dot (which I want at 1X) but when I dial to 4 or 6 or 8 I can utilize the reticle for holdover. I have zero desire to utilize holdover on 1 power therefore SFP scopes in 1-X are not for me. I do like the brighter illumination of SFP scopes though. I guess it just comes down to preference.
Click to expand...

Kamkaze has a good point about the appearance and disappearance of the 'close' reticle.
i.e. in limited Tac Optics, you've got 1 optic on your gun that you can transition between close and far, and scope manufacturers are trying to get the best of both worlds. At low magnification, they're trying to achieve a fast optic like a red-dot, and at high magnification they're trying to get that to 'go away' so that you only really see the high magnification detailed stadia.

Both Leupold's Mk6 1-6 CMR-W and the new Trijicon VCog have taken this to the next level with their new type of daylight illumination systems and new reticles, where at low magnification you get a really bright daylight circle (5-7.5 MOA) that you can quickly bracket a target and let rip. Then at high magnification you get the detailed 0.5 MOA center dot to work with at longer range, without the blowout of the illumination or the target covering of a red-dot. Yes, Leupold's might have the unforgiving illuminated eyebox prob, but apparently the new Trijicon (to be released soon) doesn't suffer from that.

I do get that one is really only dealing with sub 0.85Mil (300m) in elevation for 3Gun targets, where hardly any scopes have even got to their first vertical suptension at that point, so you're actually only dealing with the center dot anyway... which is why a lot of people like the SFP.

However, do have a look at the latest breed of FFP 1-x scopes, they are trying to get the best of both worlds.
Low magnification : soft focus : daylight bright super fast red-dot reticles
High magnification : hard focus : high detail with ballistic hold-over for precision

New tech is always worth taking a good look at... ;) ...especially if it can work for you.
 
#43
Tom i love this new Uso. It's the perfect scope for 3 gun. I have had zero issues with this scope. The glass is sharp and the true 1x with bright red dot is by far the best out there. I haven't gone hunting with it but it should be good with its bdc reticle for quick shots out to 800yds
 
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#44
Quote: dAyLiTe, Yes, Leupold's might have the unforgiving illuminated eye box prob

I have the Leupold Mk6 FFP 1-6X20 scope. Will someone explain what this problem is as I haven't noticed it on my scope yet.
TIA
 
#46
samnev said:
I have the Leupold Mk6 FFP 1-6X20 scope. Will someone explain what this problem is as I haven't noticed it on my scope yet.
TIA
Click to expand...

samnev: If you've not noticed it, then you've made me a happy man !
My Mk6 1-6 is on it's way, and the only negative that worried me were the many posts saying that if you move your head a bit, that the illumination of the reticle 'flickers'.
I hoped that this was operator error, and if you have a good cheek weld that you won't have the prob.

I'll have to see when mine arrives, but it would be great to get feedback from your perspective as you already have it.
 
#47
Leupold Mk 6 1-6X20

dAyLiTe said:
samnev: If you've not noticed it, then you've made me a happy man !
My Mk6 1-6 is on it's way, and the only negative that worried me were the many posts saying that if you move your head a bit, that the illumination of the reticle 'flickers'.
I hoped that this was operator error, and if you have a good cheek weld that you won't have the prob.

I'll have to see when mine arrives, but it would be great to get feedback from your perspective as you already have it.
Click to expand...

My Leupold Mk 6FFP 1-6X20 is mounted on an H&K SR9TC. The butt sock is similar to the PRS but with a higher adjustable cheek piece. It always gives me a solid cheek weld. When used at the range with parallax adjusted the illuminated horse shoe surrounding the center 0.5 for is always centered on the non illuminated horse shoe. I just checked it in the house today (didn't readjust the parallax). If I exaggerate my head head movement up and down or left to right the red horse shoe surrounding the 0.5 center dot will move slightly off the non illuminated horse shoe but in no way disappears. If I make very small head movements the shift is barely noticeable. But when the rifle is shot at the range and I shoot as I normally do with the parallax adjusted I have NEVER seen it shift of disappear so I don't know what is the cause of the other negative reports. Perhaps the solid cheek weld on the SR9TC is preventing me from seeing it but when I checked it today I purposely did not use a solid cheek weld. Hope that helps.
AS far as the overall scope the glass is extremely clear and free of chromatic aberration. The resolution is great and it tracking is spot on. The only negative so far I do not care for the locking pinch turret caps in order to move the turret dials.
 
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#48
samnev: That's great feedback.
I figured as much... I'm seriously looking forward to it's arrival.
I guess if I move my head too much, the scope will tell me I'm off... might even help teach me to keep my head down.

As to the turrets; I'm not overly worried as it's a 3 Gun scope, and once set, I'll not have to worry about them again.
 
#49
cvbond said:
I run a Swaro Z6i. I much prefer the reticle in the Kahles and the Vortex is a great deal for the money.

Bottom line is that you are going to be happy with all of the scopes you mentioned. The bitch is picking the one you are going to like the best.
Click to expand...

Are you saying you prefer the Kahles G4b reticle over the Z6i's BRT reticle, and if so why ? Can the Kahles G4B reticle on 6x be used quickly and effectively out to 500yds using 77gr ammo out of a 16 inch barrel ? Where would be your approx zero for this reticle/barrel/ammo combo ?
 
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#50
i just ordered two bushnell elite tacticals in 1-6.5 with their btr-2 reticle - ffp and sfp, to see what i liked best. first, they are both very bright. i'm keeping the sfp. the ffp reticle didn't have enough there at 1x, for me, to help with fast target acquisition. the sfp, with the full-size reticle at 1x, should be a lot faster for me. i do wish the turret clicks and reticle hashmarks were in MOA and not mils though, a little less math to do.
 
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