10.5” - 12.5” 5.56 barrel question

[Evolution 9]

LOL...

How many people in this thread have ever used an SBR to shoot a person or an animal? My guess is single digits...

I've shot a single coyote with my SBR in the probably approaching 10k rounds I have put through it. The rest has been on steel. I would guess for 95%+ of SBR owners they are toys. I fall into that category for sure.

Well I’ve done both, so I’m not real concerned about what “most” guys use their SBRs for.

OP asked for precision and my response reflected that. Not sure why it bothers some people that some of us would prefer a more accurate SBR over a less accurate one

 

[Evolution 9]

and your numbers are WAY off. I know at least 6 people who regularly shoot animals with SBRs.

Two 14.5s and a 10.5 (the 10.5 has taken over a dozen elk and deer and countless coyotes).

All shots over 200 yards. All perfect shot placement… which is possible in part because I use good barrels. Furthest any of these got was 7 yards. Bullet selection matters.

 

[Makinchips208]

and your numbers are WAY off. I know at least 6 people who regularly shoot animals with SBRs.

Two 14.5s and a 10.5 (the 10.5 has taken over a dozen elk and deer and countless coyotes).

View attachment 8213875View attachment 8213882
View attachment 8213883

All shots over 200 yards. All perfect shot placement… which is possible in part because I use good barrels. Furthest any of these got was 7 yards. Bullet selection matters.

That’s awesome. Off topic, but what caliber is that?

 

[Evolution 9]

That’s awesome. Off topic, but what caliber is that?

5.56 Black Hills 77TMK

 

[1911hombre]

research?

so no real experience.


10.5's with carbine gas is probably similar to 12.5 with a mid. 10.5's arent the easiest guns to keep running reliably. Its a big reason DD did an 11.5" with the Mk18. The extra inch of gas port dwell did a ton to keep the gun running reliably...

My 10.5 runs great with the can and an H2 buffer... Take the can off or throw an H buffer in it and all bets are off. It wont run for shit with a C buffer. Needs the mass to keep the gun locked up for an extra fraction. Short stroke city.

DD Mk 18 is 10.3". Now.... who needs to do some research?

 

[rjacobs]

and your numbers are WAY off. I know at least 6 people who regularly shoot animals with SBRs.

Out of the five hundred thousand some odd SBR's that are in the registry you have an example of 6...

So they would be part of that 5%... I still am guessing that 95% of SBR owners use them as range toys.

 

[rjacobs]

DD Mk 18 is 10.3". Now.... who needs to do some research?

It use to be an 11.5" barrel I am almost positive... did it change at some point?

 

[1911hombre]

It use to be an 11.5" barrel I am almost positive... did it change at some point?

Nope.

 

[rjacobs]

Nope.

then ill admit to being wrong, but I thought it was like a 10.3" rail with an 11.5" barrel. The MK18 rail was an odd length I remember.

 

[rjacobs]

With this administration I would not make any bets. They are busy revoking small ffls licenses at the moment but who knows where it will go

NFA was still pretty active during the 94 AWB period... I wasnt in the game back then, but a friend of mine was and he said even back then the ATF wasnt bothering with NFA folks and he thought they were as bad or worse back then...or the FUD's were worse when you would show up with fun toys at the range that they "couldnt" have... it was more like they werent aware of the NFA stuff back then and thought it was all verboten.

 

[1911hombre]

then ill admit to being wrong, but I thought it was like a 10.3" rail with an 11.5" barrel. The MK18 rail was an odd length I remember.

I don't know the handguard length offhand, but I can tell you with a Surefire 3P and an RC2 attached there is about .030" between the handguard and the suppressor. Also, my Mk 18 runs anything from M193 up to 77 gr. Razorcore flawlessly suppressed or unsuppressed. Naturally overgassed, but reliable.

 

[Evolution 9]

Out of the five hundred thousand some odd SBR's that are in the registry you have an example of 6...

So they would be part of that 5%... I still am guessing that 95% of SBR owners use them as range toys.

You don’t understand statistics.

You can’t compare the 6 I know to the half million in the registry to get the percentage. You’d have to compare the 6 I know to the number of SBR owners I know which is under a dozen. How are your numbers looking now?

 

[rjacobs]

You don’t understand statistics.

You can’t compare the 6 I know to the half million in the registry to get the percentage. You’d have to compare the 6 I know to the number of SBR owners I know which is under a dozen. How are your numbers looking now?

I dont give 2 fucks about your numbers. You just want to argue with me for the sake of arguing with me and it will accomplish nothing...

You argue with me about mental masturbation... 99% of the topics on this forum(and almost all forums for that matter) are mental masturbation.

You argue about me recommending a barrel to the OP, which I dont even think I did outside of barrel length, which I have experience with so I will share it with the OP. You have a different experience with your barrel lengths. Doesnt make my experience invalid, although you seem to be arguing that my direct experience is invalid because your experience is different than mine. Others have shared that their 10.5 barrels can be finicky as well. Glad your's is not. Mine is not once I figured out how to set it up properly.

I'm out.

 

[357Max]

Finally just getting over my disdain for spending $200 on a tax stamp to have a shorter barrel. I wont go down the DI vs piston or the optimal barre length questions as i have read as much as i can find on this. My big this is 1, I plan to get a suppressor for this set up in the future, possibly this year but who know with the way my wife spends money and 2, i realize separating cheap barrels from more quality ones will probably make a difference but as far as spending $300 vs $600 am I going to see THAT big of a performance difference? I want something that will be capable of 1 to 1.5 moa with off the shelf ammo. Realistically I’ll be shooting 55g and 62g ammo for the most part for plinking and then getting quality ammo occasionally for seeing what me and the gun can do. If I’m going to soend the money on a quality barrel i fee like i might as well get a headspace matched bolt with it. CLE has a ready to ship 10.5 for like $515 with the bolt… am i going to see that big of improvement over a DD or a noveske for $300?

Depends on your priorities.

It's a bit of a lottery, but your a lot more likely to get a good shooter with the higher end barrels.

If you want durability + gas port for suppressed use over accuracy. Still should be fairly capable of good accuracy.
Hodge defense carbine gas Chrome lined.
https://www.weaponoutfitters.com/ho...tripped-carbine-barrel-11-5in-1-2x28-tpi.html

If accuracy + reliability is the priority I'd go this way or the CLE you mentioned.
Bart gain twist 7.7-7 carbine gas
https://craddockprecision.com/signature-11-5-223-wylde/

For me it is mostly a range toy, but still wanted good accuracy. That's why I went with the $275.00 10.5" 8T carbine gas Rock Creek linked earlier.
Rock's also have a reputation for being fast barrels & my experience aligns with that, so it factored in my decision.
It's fun shooting 600y with a 10.5" AR.
First attempt with the 2575fps 73 eldm load was spot on for elevation, but I couldn't see splash from the misses (wind) via the 10x scope. Went 2 for 5 on the 8" plate @600y.

In reality though, the 2-10x was just on here for load development. I always intended this thing to wear a Vortex Huey & I'll just through a 3x behind it when I want to reach past 200.

The mid price Craddock was a bit of a pain to find good loads for & I suspect the signature series Bart would be a lot less picky.
Still It's a ton of fun and my 60gr Vmax load is stupid fast for a 10.5" using Tac.

Did I mention it's obnoxiously loud!!!
Just put a KGM 5.56 Hard use can in jail. Looking forward to shooting this with a can.

 

[ut755ln]

6. I'm not sure why others were treating this like it's a permanent decision. You can SBR one lower and then build 100 different uppers to run on it. Try a few yourself and then you'll come to the same realization that everyone else has, 11.5 is goldilocks.

14.5 with a shorter can

 

[Docsherm]

It use to be an 11.5" barrel I am almost positive... did it change at some point?

NEVER was

 

[Constructor]

I dont give 2 fucks about your numbers. You just want to argue with me for the sake of arguing with me and it will accomplish nothing...

You argue with me about mental masturbation... 99% of the topics on this forum(and almost all forums for that matter) are mental masturbation.

You argue about me recommending a barrel to the OP, which I dont even think I did outside of barrel length, which I have experience with so I will share it with the OP. You have a different experience with your barrel lengths. Doesnt make my experience invalid, although you seem to be arguing that my direct experience is invalid because your experience is different than mine. Others have shared that their 10.5 barrels can be finicky as well. Glad your's is not. Mine is not once I figured out how to set it up properly.

I'm out.

+1 Going to any gun forum in an attempt to help is a waste of time. It doesn't matter if you've been a gunsmith for 40 years and they have had their rifle for a week they will still argue or discount your experience. That said the ARP 12.5 is really 13", changed after the first batch to make it easier to use a rifle length handguard and still be able to install a muzzle device/QD. Gas ports are drilled upon order so they can be sized to work with the intended ammo or can. I would much rather have a mid gas 12.5-13 than a carbine gas 10.5, I still have 4-5 in 5.56 and 6.8.

 

[CCRBUM]

Ended up picking up a 10.5” barrel off the PX for a good price. Hopefully dealing with the form 1 tomorrow and then waiting patiently for the ATF….

 

[GUNNER10]

Finally just getting over my disdain for spending $200 on a tax stamp to have a shorter barrel. I wont go down the DI vs piston or the optimal barre length questions as i have read as much as i can find on this. My big this is 1, I plan to get a suppressor for this set up in the future, possibly this year but who know with the way my wife spends money and 2, i realize separating cheap barrels from more quality ones will probably make a difference but as far as spending $300 vs $600 am I going to see THAT big of a performance difference? I want something that will be capable of 1 to 1.5 moa with off the shelf ammo. Realistically I’ll be shooting 55g and 62g ammo for the most part for plinking and then getting quality ammo occasionally for seeing what me and the gun can do. If I’m going to soend the money on a quality barrel i fee like i might as well get a headspace matched bolt with it. CLE has a ready to ship 10.5 for like $515 with the bolt… am i going to see that big of improvement over a DD or a noveske for $300?

There's not going to be a big difference between the prices ranges you are looking at, 300 is the price point where you are getting a pretty nice barrel. I shoot LMT and have always been happy with their barrels, but if I was buying something from a different vendor, I would probably lean towards Noveske, Krieger, or Bartlen for an accuracy build, or FN or DD for a blaster/Carbine. It really depends on what you are going for.

I regard to barrel length, that's very personal. I shot LMT 10.5's for a long time and never had any issues but have recently come to the conclusion that that 12.5 inch barrels are as short as i want to go with 556. They just run smoother, offer better velocity and suppress better.

If I wanted anything shorter than 12.5, I would really lean towards something like a 300BO that folds as it just feels like a better approach.

While I have done far more supressed shooting with DI gun's I starded shooting an LMT piston a couple years ago and its a rediculously nice shooting rifle,

 

[jwhjwh54]

All i hunt with are my SBR's. I kill a ton of hogs .

I have a BA 12.5 barrel and it's ok. I'll definitely upgrade it at some point when/ If ever i use my 223/556 more than my 6.8 or 308

 

[Hoody2shoes]

12.5 is the best 556 length

My core is getting 2650 when the can is attached with factory black hills mk262's. I'm averaging about .8moa for 5 round groups at 100y with my atacr 1-8 and a front sandbag. I could probably tighten that up with a more precision oriented optic and a tripod. I'm confident out to 800y with this setup

The only two 556 lengths worth playing with are 12.5 and 18 imo

If I want shorter go with a different caliber. If I want more range go with a different caliber.

 

[lash]

Going to any gun forum in an attempt to help is a waste of time.

lol! You probably could have stopped with just this statement and it would have summed up this thread to a tee.

I’ll admit that it was fun to read and chuckle to, but if I said that there was any real takeaway from all of this mental masturbation, I’d be lying.

 

[LRRPF52]

and your numbers are WAY off. I know at least 6 people who regularly shoot animals with SBRs.

Two 14.5s and a 10.5 (the 10.5 has taken over a dozen elk and deer and countless coyotes).

View attachment 8213875View attachment 8213882
View attachment 8213883

All shots over 200 yards. All perfect shot placement… which is possible in part because I use good barrels. Furthest any of these got was 7 yards. Bullet selection matters.

I don’t think you got the memo. You see, .300 Winchester Magnum is minimum caliber for elk. Haven’t you heard?

We all know there’s a .300 RUM just outside of the camera’s field of view in those pics.

If you shoot an elk with a 10.5” AR-15, the projectile will clearly bounce off and fall on the ground.

(Imagine the slaying our ancestors would have committed with the weapons we have today.)

 

[LRRPF52]

I have tons of SBRs and I'll offer up a few universal truths that should help, many already covered here.

1. 12.5 is an overrated length, especially with mid gas. It feels too long indoors and too short outdoors. The mid gas has a short dwell time and lower pressure that lowers it's reliability range. Additionally the velocity gained vs 11.5 is minimal.

2. I strongly recommend 11.5 carbine gas for almost any SBR application, perfect length and reliability. I have 4 of them and only a few of the other lengths.

3. Why do you need so much precision out of an SBR? If that type of accuracy ever came into play you'd be out of your "effective range" anyways so it's just a waste.

4. You'll probably want adjustable gas because these guns tend to have huge gas ports for the lunatics shooting steel case. If you shoot good ammo, get a adjustable gas.

5. 10.5/10.3 is super fun but not practical. It's hard on your parts and has an extremely short effective range. You'll need special, expensive ammo if you want it for defense.

6. I'm not sure why others were treating this like it's a permanent decision. You can SBR one lower and then build 100 different uppers to run on it. Try a few yourself and then you'll come to the same realization that everyone else has, 11.5 is goldilocks.

My sniper partner and I were doing some shooting on a stage we set up when we were RO’ing for a competition in Finland. He was a Royal Marine Sniper before getting into contact work.

Anyway, he brought an 11.5” Colt Commando to plink around with just for fun. We were shooting some of the steel plates we had set up for our stage at 300m. I got on the little blaster while he spotted. It just had an Eotech on it, nothing fancy.

I just aimed center to see where it would register, then thought I’d walk my hits on-target quickly. Started busting shots with him calling the impacts. It was on-target out of the gate, shot a great little fist-sized group with just the holosight. It was only some European 55gr M193 equivalent if I recall.

The short barreled guns can be as accurate as any other, but if they’re really lightweight, they get squirrely on you and can be hard to rebuild a consistent shot-to-shot string.

I’ve always liked 11.5” though. With IMI, Federal, Winchester, and PPU M193 ammo, it will do well over 2800fps mv, which is plenty for 5.56x45.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I don’t think you got the memo. You see, .300 Winchester Magnum is minimum caliber for small white tail does.

FIFY.
At least according to some guys I know.

 

[LRRPF52]

FIFY.
At least according to some guys I know.

Those guys need to read WDM Bell, because they clearly never heard of him.

As gun guys, we get so wrapped around the axle about calibers that we easily forget that impact speeds on the animals are generally in the Mach 2+ range. Line that up with the vitals and it’s a bad day for Bambi or Elk.

 

[Chicory01]

Out of the five hundred thousand some odd SBR's that are in the registry you have an example of 6...

So they would be part of that 5%... I still am guessing that 95% of SBR owners use them as range toys.

I kill deer, hogs and coyote with my SBR out to 200 meters regularly.

Even a 10.3 is a 300-350 meter gun if you're running 70gr TSX or 77gr TMK

Nobody who isn't retarded is running M193 or M855 even out of a 16" for hunting or defensive purposes.

The advancement of ammunition technology has rendered lengths between 12.5 and 20 obsolete for 5.56

 

[91Eunozs]

12.5 is the best 556 length …

Not sure it’s ’the best’ length, horses for courses and all, but it’s my favorite ‘do everything’ length for an AR chambered in 5.56mm. Long enough to stretch out to a couple hundred yards with ease, but short enough for pushing through brush with a can attached without getting too unwieldy. Or CQB work I suppose, though my only experience in that realm is in training

Have everything from 10.5”, and one 11.5”, all the way out to 18” on 5.56 uppers, but the ones that get shot the most are the 14.5” and 12.5” uppers. I prefer the 12.5” versions. Love my SBR’d lowers!

My current favorite:

 

[ut755ln]

Not sure it’s ’the best’ length, horses for courses and all, but it’s my favorite ‘do everything’ length for an AR chambered in 5.56mm. Long enough to stretch out to a couple hundred yards with ease, but short enough for pushing through brush with a can attached without getting too unwieldy. Or CQB work I suppose, though my only experience in that realm is in training

Have everything from 10.5”, and one 11.5”, all the way out to 18” on 5.56 uppers, but the ones that get shot the most are the 14.5” and 12.5” uppers. I prefer the 12.5” versions. Love my SBR’d lowers!

My current favorite:

What length rail is that? Is the mlok useable by the suppressor?

 

[91Eunozs]

What length rail is that? Is the mlok useable by the suppressor?

15” rail over a 12.5” barrel. It’s a lot of fun to shoot, but yeah, a little limited on what accessories I can run in this configuration.

And haven’t attached anything there for exactly that reason…the nuts/attachment mechanism will clear, but the mount gets damn hot very fast. I’ll occasionally mount a light or IR designator a little farther back, but frankly this configuration is primarily, and best suited to daytime use only.

Still a lot of fun to shoot though!

Most of my night shooting is to go after feral hogs, and the occasional coyote, and I have very specific tools for that purpose. My preferred pig round is 6.8 SPC-II; here’s my 13.9” with pinned NOX SPC upper (shortest SPC barrel):

…and just swapped my 16” SPC barrel over to a new upper; haven’t even (re)zeroed this one yet; maybe this afternoon, but waiting for Reptilia to do a run in ODG to get another 45* offset RMR mount for this one vs this left over FDE 90* mount being used as a place holder:

 

[RickyRodney]

Not sure it’s ’the best’ length, horses for courses and all, but it’s my favorite ‘do everything’ length for an AR chambered in 5.56mm. Long enough to stretch out to a couple hundred yards with ease, but short enough for pushing through brush with a can attached without getting too unwieldy. Or CQB work I suppose, though my only experience in that realm is in training

Have everything from 10.5”, and one 11.5”, all the way out to 18” on 5.56 uppers, but the ones that get shot the most are the 14.5” and 12.5” uppers. I prefer the 12.5” versions. Love my SBR’d lowers!

My current favorite:

What color is the cerokote on the upper and handguard?

 

[91Eunozs]

What color is the cerokote on the upper and handguard?

It was a custom blend trying to match the Reptilia AUS ‘FDE’ anodizing on that scope mount; I just really liked the way it looked. Mostly gold, but some FDE and a couple of tans mixed in as well as I recall. Plus a clear coat.

Nothing like having an accessory drive the major components of a build! LoL

 

[RickyRodney]

It was a custom blend trying to match the Reptilia AUS ‘FDE’ anodizing on that scope mount; I just really liked the way it looked. Mostly gold, but some FDE and a couple of tans mixed in as well as I recall. Plus a clear coat.

Nothing like having an accessory drive the major components of a build! LoL

Well you know rule #1 is…..always look cool.

Form>function

 

[1911hombre]

5. 10.5/10.3 is super fun but not practical. It's hard on your parts and has an extremely short effective range. You'll need special, expensive ammo if you want it for defense.

EL OH EL OH EL