10 shot load development-balance beam-pressure signs- fail?

[Fweedombypepe]

So I decided to try Scott Satterlee's 10 shot load development when loading for my
bro in laws 6.5CM. Using once fired Starline SRP. Just to see if I can load
accurate enough on my 40 dollar ebay ohaus balance beam scale.

I was impressed with the velocity consistency if by nothing else.

Howa 1500 24" HVY BARREl. Precision Armament M-11 Brake.

100 rounds down the tube to break in and fire form the brass.

Oh and I did use expander mandrel after sizing..but didn't load till 24 hours later.
It had sprung back a bit to .0015 neck tension.

Getting serious pressure signs at low powder charges and low velocity.
What am I missing? Carbon ring?

What should be my next step?

Oh and it was 90 degrees...brass was warming up in the sun for a while.

I didn't shoot the last two. Was scared I was gonna blow my face off.

 

[Precision Underground]

Define serious pressure signs. Any heavy bolt lift? I don’t see any ejector marks but might just be the pics. It looks like the firing pin hole is massive.

 

[Fweedombypepe]

I guess I meant the primers cratering that much. Does that not mean too much pressure? I didn't feel any heavier then normal bolt lift.

 

[Ryridesmotox]

What primers are you using? I just shot my howa 1500 in 308 today. Was pushing 178gr eld match bullets 2712 FPS. Probably 100 down the tube today with no primer issues at all. I use CCI large primers for mine. Havent messed with a small primer case yet

 

[Fweedombypepe]

CCI 400. The standard small rifle primer.

 

[Precision Underground]

I guess I meant the primers cratering that much. Does that not mean too much pressure? I didn't feel any heavier then normal bolt lift.

Primers can indicate pressure but they can also imitate pressure. Looks to me like the firing pin hole needs bushing. If that’s the only sign you were seeing I seriously doubt your pressure is way up. It does look like you were close to piercing a primer or two though.

 

[Fweedombypepe]

So should I load some at 40.3 and see how they group and check sd's? Should I try different coal? I picked 2.84 to fit the magpul mag..during the fire forming and break in I was running 42g at 2750 fps..it was cratering primers but way not as much as this(but temps were freezing)..I played with coal...010 and .02 off the lands but it didn't make a difference in primer cratering so I went back to 2.84.

Can velocity node move if I changed coal or will it stay at 2660?

 

[JMGlasgow]

Have a bushing installed at your firing pin hole. It's too big and allowing your primers to crater badly. Flattened primers are a better indication of pressure than cratering.

 

[Ryridesmotox]

Its crazy that I can load my 308 pretty stout and get nothing near this. Same gun too, basically. Maybe howa/legacy sports will take it back and handle it. In my experience with ARs in 6.5 creed, unless you use a bolt with a smaller firing pin hole, it might have primer issues. This may be similar? Not sure though.

For references I'm loading 45 grains of IMR4064 in Jag brass. And I run them out as far as I can in my magpuls AICS mags as well. Just weird, to me, how you are having these issues. Good luck resolving them, I would be very interested to know what the solution may be.

 

[spife7980]

If you’re shooting small primer creed brass you need to be using 450 magnum primers. The 400 are for low pressure, you are seeing that they are not suitable. Try the thicker cup material 450s or br4s and see how bad they crater.

 

[Fweedombypepe]

Aren't br4s just 400s weight sorted? I know the 450s have thicker material and considered using them but assumed it'd be easier getting single digit sd's with non magnum primers.

 

[Fweedombypepe]

So educate me further guys...by looking at this brass.. do you think Im running higher pressure in my 243 pushing 105bthp at 2785 out of 20inch barrel using 33.3g of h4895 with a CCI 200..then the 6.5 140eldm going 2730 on the left?

 

[Precision Underground]

So educate me further guys...by looking at this brass.. do you think Im running higher pressure in my 243 pushing 105bthp at 2785 out of 20inch barrel using 33.3g of h4895 with a CCI 200..then the 6.5 140eldm going 2730 on the left?
View attachment 7111124

The primers can not tell you that. The eld primers are most likely cratering because of the physical structure of the bolt face/firing pin hole/firing pin; not from overpressure. Have the firing pin hole bushed so there is no void for the primer to flow into.

With zero heavy bolt lift and zero ejector marks I would not conclude that there is overpressure.

I would say that magnum primers will give you MORE consistency. Bigger flash= more consistent ignition. I use 450s in everything that is SRP.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Aren't br4s just 400s weight sorted? I know the 450s have thicker material and considered using them but assumed it'd be easier getting single digit sd's with non magnum primers.

No. BR4's have a thicker cup like the 450s, .025" thick vice .025" for the 400s. The cup is also slightly taller on a 450, and slightly (.0002") larger in diameter for the BR4s. For primer dimension reference.

As far as primer affecting SD/ES - that depends on the powder ignition, which can change with case capacity and temperature. Anecdotally, I saw no differences in accuracy or SD when loading like charges of 223 with cci 400s or BR4s.

Additional reading, since I went through the pain trying to find it...

 

[spife7980]

Aren't br4s just 400s weight sorted? I know the 450s have thicker material and considered using them but assumed it'd be easier getting single digit sd's with non magnum primers.

Br4 and 400 share the same primer charge weight.
Br4 and 450 share the same primer cup material.

 

[antithesis]

39.6 looks like it has a an extractor imprint and an ejector wipe on 40.5. Comments (which I agree with) about the pin aside, make sure your chamber and rounds are free of all lube/oil.

 

[Fweedombypepe]

39.6 looks like it has a an extractor imprint and an ejector wipe on 40.5. Comments (which I agree with) about the pin aside, make sure your chamber and rounds are free of all lube/oil.

Your correct...two of the eight have a faint ejector mark.

I lubed with lanolin/alcohol..sprayed while they were standing in loading block..I tried to keep it low but a small amount might have gotten in necks? I wiped the outside..but did nothing to the inside.

I seemed like an unusual amount of force required to seat the bullets with Forster bench rest seater. Although I did check several times and I only had .0015 neck tension on average.

Thoughts?

I have some br4s on hand..I'll try those with a 40.3 charge and check groups and es...or should I start from scratch and use 450s?

 

[Steel head]

I have some br4s on hand..I'll try those with a 40.3 charge and check groups and es...or should I start from scratch and use 450s?

This is exactly what I would do.
40.2 to 40.5 looked very interesting as far as velocity spreads.
A stouter primers is also a good start.

I’m also guessing you were getting close to another velocity node.
I’d go further if you weren’t getting a stiff bolt lift unless your satisfied with current speeds.

 

[antithesis]

The Forster makes a ton of pressure so hard seating is not a good sign in the accuracy department but I have never seen it / heard of it being a cause of high chamber pressure. Expanding then letting the brass sit would not have caused it - the brass is either going to spring back or its not. Things that cause it (IMO most to least common, may be others).

1. Necks are not brushed (still need to be brushed after cleaning)
2. Neck walls are too thick for the die/bushing being used (likely not an issue with Hornady brass)
3. Not enough chamfer or bad chamfer angle
4. Bullets titled too far before going up the die
5. Brass needs to be annealed (not in your case since they were 1x fired)
6. Too much powder/seating too deep (not in your case unless your scale is broke)
7. Worn expander button (likely not a worn mandrel)
8. Worn press/out of alignment
9. Bad seater die

It has been a while since I used BR4's, but I quit using them because they were cratering in a 204 Ruger that I know had a good pin and bolt. The only SRP that I use these days for precision loads is the Remington 7 1/2.

I have never used RL16 in the 6.5CM, but looking at Alliant's data your charges are way under so unless your scale is just way off, or you have some crazy heavy bullet that I have never seen, its not a load problem. What bullet are you using?

 

[Fweedombypepe]

I just might leave it at 2660 fps. That way the 6.5 will be within one click elevation as my 243 at 1000 for when we're shooting side by side. Keep things simple. Not competing..just for weekend target shooting and hunting.

 

[antithesis]

RL16 pushes pretty hard. It is certainly capable of more than 2700. If you are good with 2700 I would look at medium charge of H4350 and leave the RL16 for your hunting rifle.

 

[Fweedombypepe]

The Forster makes a ton of pressure so hard seating is not a good sign in the accuracy department but I have never seen it / heard of it being a cause of high chamber pressure. Expanding then letting the brass sit would not have caused it - the brass is either going to spring back or its not. Things that cause it (IMO most to least common, may be others).

1. Necks are not brushed (still need to be brushed after cleaning)
2. Neck walls are too thick for the die/bushing being used (likely not an issue with Hornady brass)
3. Not enough chamfer or bad chamfer angle
4. Bullets titled too far before going up the die
5. Brass needs to be annealed (not in your case since they were 1x fired)
6. Too much powder/seating too deep (not in your case unless your scale is broke)
7. Worn expander button (likely not a worn mandrel)
8. Worn press/out of alignment
9. Bad seater die

It has been a while since I used BR4's, but I quit using them because they were cratering in a 204 Ruger that I know had a good pin and bolt. The only SRP that I use these days for precision loads is the Remington 7 1/2.

I have never used RL16 in the 6.5CM, but looking at Alliant's data your charges are way under so unless your scale is just way off, or you have some crazy heavy bullet that I have never seen, its not a load problem. What bullet are you using?

140 eld-m.

Not using Forster press..just Forster bench rest seater..brand new..first time using it.

Forster full length sizer die is also brand new.

I used Lyman vld chamfer tool.

Brass is starline SRP.

 

[Steel head]

RL16 pushes pretty hard. It is certainly capable of more than 2700. If you are good with 2700 I would look at medium charge of H4350 and leave the RL16 for your hunting rifle.

I was a bit taken aback by the speeds I got with R16 in my 260 recently compared to H4350 and IMR4451.
My starting load with r16 was 80fps faster than my mild accuracy/plink load with 4451 or H4350 with the same amount of powder.

I’m going to use up my renaming H4350 for my target/plink load and use R16 for my try hard loads with 147’s.

 

[Country]

41.5 grains of powder is a max charge behind a 140 grain bullet and you are pushing a 178 grain bullet .
Move to a harder primer and drop the powder load a bit . Reloader powder is more heat sensitive also , try Hogdon H4350 in hot weather . Check the point of the firing pin it could be mall formed . The firing pin hole could be oversize .

 

[Supersubes]

41.5 grains of powder is a max charge behind a 140 grain bullet and you are pushing a 178 grain bullet .
Move to a harder primer and drop the powder load a bit . Reloader powder is more heat sensitive also , try Hogdon H4350 in hot weather . Check the point of the firing pin it could be mall formed . The firing pin hole could be oversize .

Reloder16 is equal to or better than h4350 in temp stability. It’s a separate animal entirely from rl15 or 17. Just a FYI.

 

[antithesis]

41.5 grains of powder is a max charge behind a 140 grain bullet and you are pushing a 178 grain bullet .

Where did you get that from? I have yet to find any published data for RL-16 for the 308, even on loadata.com.

 

[Fweedombypepe]

41.5 grains of powder is a max charge behind a 140 grain bullet and you are pushing a 178 grain bullet .
Move to a harder primer and drop the powder load a bit . Reloader powder is more heat sensitive also , try Hogdon H4350 in hot weather . Check the point of the firing pin it could be mall formed . The firing pin hole could be oversize .

You got me, the OP, confused with somebody else. I'm running a 6.5CM..140g eld-m. Max charge according to Alliant is 42.6 g. I'm cratering primers at 39.3 already. That was my reason for posting. I will check firing pin and firing pin hole when I get to it. The gun is my bro in laws..
He lives two hours from me..I just put it together and am reloading for it.

 

[Country]

OH ok sorry a 140 grain then , still a stiff load . Move to a harder primer .

 

[Doom]

You’re loading a cartridge designed with a LR primer but using a SR primer designed for lower pressure rounds. To the best of my knowledge no cartridge specifies a magnum SR primer. Until the 223 Remington the pressure for SR cartridges were around 50,000 psi (xducer meas.). The 223 Rem pushed that to 55,000 psi. Hence Remingtons 6 1/2 and 7 1/2 (for 223) primer confusion. At 62,000psi in the Creedmore you will need the stouter primer, either Rem 7 1/2 or CCI BR4 or 450.