New to sport of LR shooting and trying to understand 100 yd zero. I get it that long range calculations can be made from that zero but can't same calculations be made from say a 200 yd zero?
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100 yd zero?
- Thread starter Ks new guy
- Start date
Yes, but it's more precise, ie: less variables affect your bullet at 100 for example.
Two big reasons for 100yd:
Pretty much no environmental factor will affect it. A 100yd zero is a zero pretty much everywhere. Within reason.
Everything is up. With a 200yd zero, you have to dial down when shooting at 100.
Except for elr, there’s really not much reason not to zero at 100.
I'll confuse you with this: It depends on your setup.
For instance, my mark 5 on my 6.5cm is about .45 high at 100 when dialed for a 200 yard zero. Because of the scope turret design with a lock at zero, and then I have .5 mill under the lock it's easy enough to zero for 200 on the zero lock, and if I need closer I can simply dial under.
They will throw in the occasional 1" target at 75 yards at some matches just to screw with the guys that forget to have dope for everything. It's always funny seeing guys miss the closest target because they didn't ever bother to shoot less than 200 yards.
Now, I found that I'm accurate enough and my rifle is accurate enough I needed to do load development for my rifle at 200+. At 100 it was going sub-moa with everything, 200+ it really starts to show me what it does and doesn't like.
So there is a time and a place for everything. 100 yards is a good start, and you can work up from there as you see the need. Don't be afraid to experiment and adjust to make your own system that works for you.
For instance, my mark 5 on my 6.5cm is about .45 high at 100 when dialed for a 200 yard zero. Because of the scope turret design with a lock at zero, and then I have .5 mill under the lock it's easy enough to zero for 200 on the zero lock, and if I need closer I can simply dial under.
They will throw in the occasional 1" target at 75 yards at some matches just to screw with the guys that forget to have dope for everything. It's always funny seeing guys miss the closest target because they didn't ever bother to shoot less than 200 yards.
Now, I found that I'm accurate enough and my rifle is accurate enough I needed to do load development for my rifle at 200+. At 100 it was going sub-moa with everything, 200+ it really starts to show me what it does and doesn't like.
So there is a time and a place for everything. 100 yards is a good start, and you can work up from there as you see the need. Don't be afraid to experiment and adjust to make your own system that works for you.
yes, current ballistic calculators can take the zero distance, scope height (above bore axis) and other rifle variables you can provide and calculate against known values for the factory ammo you are using (velocities, BC, drop...) or data you would enter.
Even then the only reason to zero further that 100 for ELR, if if you have some wacko base that will not allow it. Today with stuff like the TACO, it is fairly lame to have a base you can't run to 100..
For those saying 200- 300 is a better zero or just as good, maybe they could preface why other than for the PBZ guys how it is "just as good".
Here is the problem other than creating mixed holds and having wind AJ, mirage or anything else really dick with you when you use a long range zero. Your zero moves with your shooting location.
For my 308 just going from my home range to the Mountains near my house:
100y change in zero (no wind) .02"
200y change in zero (no wind) .5"
300y change in zero (no wind) 1.3"
So with anything but a 100 zero, I kinda need to rezero first.. Mirage is often a much bigger factor moving the image at 200 and 200 as well.
Have a second dope card for the higher elevation. No real need to rezero at all. Your dope card could compensate for the offset. Easy peasy.
I personally zero at 100 yards, but in reality it wouldn't make any difference if it were 200 yards. Hold .5 mil under and make a center hit at 100 yards. If the target is large enough, a hold under may not even be warranted.
As long as the shooter understands his equipment and his zero then it matters little.
Just to clear things up, since some misinformation is getting stirred up here.
On paper, a 200yd zero shouldn’t make much of a distance. In reality it does.
Example:
A 10mph full value wins will move a 108 eld .3 at 200yds and 20mph will move it .6.
However at 100 yds, a 10mph wind moves it .1 and 20mph moves it .3.
This is a significant piece of information you need to keep in mind when zero’ing. Environmental factors matter FAR less at 100yds than at 200.
Pretty easy to find yourself zero’ing in a 10mph wind in certain parts of the country. Being within .1 is much better than .3 error built in.
On paper, a 200yd zero shouldn’t make much of a distance. In reality it does.
Example:
A 10mph full value wins will move a 108 eld .3 at 200yds and 20mph will move it .6.
However at 100 yds, a 10mph wind moves it .1 and 20mph moves it .3.
This is a significant piece of information you need to keep in mind when zero’ing. Environmental factors matter FAR less at 100yds than at 200.
Pretty easy to find yourself zero’ing in a 10mph wind in certain parts of the country. Being within .1 is much better than .3 error built in.
So, if you want to do a bunch of extra work, go ahead and do a 200 or further zero. It can be done and it will work.
You gain nothing, but incur a bunch of factors that need to be figured in for different situations and locations that may arise.
You gain nothing, but incur a bunch of factors that need to be figured in for different situations and locations that may arise.
I agree with what you said above, but It is easy enough to get the elevation spot on at 200 and make a shot at 100 yards to make a small wind adjustment. Either zero is fine. It is hard to argue something that really is personal preference. I do agree that 100 yard zero is easy enough.
We use 100 because environmental effects are irrelevant at that range. If you're going to be checking windage at 100 why not just zero elevation there?
You're overthinking this, zero at 100 and worry about shit that actually matters like building a solid position.
You're overthinking this, zero at 100 and worry about shit that actually matters like building a solid position.
It’s just math. So yes a 200yd zero is fine. What I zero my rifles at is typically mission specific. I rarely get to take a shot at elk below 300yds. Therefore that 300wm rifle is zeroed at 300. I have another 300wm that is zeroed at 100yds for it is mission specific to that range. Then I have a 308 that is zeroed at 50yds and another at 200... just depends what their use is.
If you're hunting and want a 300 yard zero, dial your scope up to 300 yards and leave it there for that hunt. Your true zero should still be at 100 yards.
Meh, check out his other post where he’s factoring in spin drift after 300yds.
Which came first the 100y vs 200y zero debate or MIL vs MOA, asking for a friend?
You know what math is really easy?
Zero them all at 100 and then leave the dial on whatever distance you feel is best.
(Sneaks to back of room and turns off Coriolis while no one is looking). ?
Your methods are obviously way too advanced for the rest of us... You must be using a Quigley-Ford and bench 280 I assume?
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Not concerned with "dialing down" for 100yd shot. Pretty much still everything up after 200 and more concerned about targets further down range. Don't feel like I need to adj turrets for every shot.
Lol I have seen more guys fucked with this strategy than I can count.
Buck common sense, it’s your choice.
Just came back from an Elk hunt.. we saw some stupid shit by hunters and my brother in law got totally fucked with his 200 yard zero when he over spin his turrets.
Sad day when my (1 gun) gun needed to be used on 4 of the 6 Elk taken..
there is so much you give up, but if you don’t know what that is, I guess it does not matter..
The old way of zeroing at 200 was a hunter thing. It gave you a longer maximum point blank range. In otherwords. a longer distance that you could shoot 3" high or 3" low. Hunters generally dont have the luxury of dialing the scope on animals. Think of it as a timed shoot, but the target is moving at an angle and will be visible for about 6 seconds. There is no ranging and dialing in that time and still getting off an effective shot. With target shooting, there is time to dial to get you close. And a wounded animal isn't the result when you hit the steel on the edge. With people shooting longer distances, there seems to be more time to dial in under certain circumstances.
Zero at 100 and dial the turret to 200 (and leave it there as long as you need) when you need to have that margin of error.
It ain’t rocket surgery.
I sight in at 100,
Why,
Because I own enough land to sight in anytime/check zero at 100 yards. I don’t own enough to sight in at 200/300 etc.
If your scope will adjust to 100 yard zero with the current scope/base setup than I see no reason to sight in any further. If I ran a 40 MOA base I may sight in at 300 yards etc if my zero couldn’t be untainted at 100 due to limited adjustment. Otherwise there’s really nothing to gain sighting in further and as stated above will only add environmental factors such as wind and mirage to the equation
Why,
Because I own enough land to sight in anytime/check zero at 100 yards. I don’t own enough to sight in at 200/300 etc.
If your scope will adjust to 100 yard zero with the current scope/base setup than I see no reason to sight in any further. If I ran a 40 MOA base I may sight in at 300 yards etc if my zero couldn’t be untainted at 100 due to limited adjustment. Otherwise there’s really nothing to gain sighting in further and as stated above will only add environmental factors such as wind and mirage to the equation
There was once a musket too.. so what.
the range with the old way was 300 max. Even then many theses guys can’t shoot all that great. 4-6” goops at 100 them sight their gun for a 2-300 yard shot.. Just stupid.
I hunt, and enjoy competitions. Nothing other than the sticking skills, doesn’t translate.
even on my damn bow we have the equipment of Mil dots with out multipin setups.. one gear further are our multipins with the slider (dial).
With distance comes time, if multi-pin works for bow, why the hell are some hunters fixated on a duplex and just stupid arguments trying to justify old tech?
The old scopes needed a coin or tool to dial. There was no dialing up without removing the cap and using a coin to make an adjustment. Turrets weren't a thing. I agree that there are much better options now. I was trying to explain the whole reason behind the 200 yard zero.
Since hunting is being discussed here, most all scopes on hunting rifles in America do not have turrets that are meant to be used beyond sighting in the rifle. In this case a 2-300 yard zero is the most practical. It makes shots out to 400 hards with very little hold over and little to no hold under with closer in shots. This is perfectly acceptable as I would wAger that most shots are within 150 yards. It has nothing to do with “old tech” and more to do with what is actually necessary and practical. Some of you guys are acting like snobs.
For Scopes that are meant to dial, yes 100 yard zero is probably best. The ahooter can dial in a 200 yard zero and leave it be. Point and shoot in most cases.
For Scopes that are meant to dial, yes 100 yard zero is probably best. The ahooter can dial in a 200 yard zero and leave it be. Point and shoot in most cases.
Get a better scope...
My bow has better tech than legacy scopes. This is not Calguns - people here should understand that the modern scope was made for hunting very dangerous game... that shot back..
Hunt with a musket if you wish, but don’t claim it is “better for hunting”..
You are one of the snobs I was referring to. You can feel the way you do and make your point without belittling 99% of guys that put meat on the table. I never said what was better for hunting. I referred to what is actually necessary to hunt. Big difference.
A bigger, heavier, more expensive scope that costs 8-20x as much as a standard hunting type scope is not “better” when the typical hunting shots are 200 yards and in. All that extra $$$ and complexity are just not necessary or even desirable for the vast majority of hunters.
For long range shooting, the type of scopes that you are referring to are absolutely superior in most every way. Long range shooting is not hunting though. Yes some guys shoot at game at 500+ yards but those are the minority by a large margin and those guys that brag about 800 yard shots are guys that will leave out the truth that they lost animals because of misses or bad hits resulting in wounded game.
Comparing a rifle to a bow is non sense. Rifles shoot flat in comparison. A hunter can point and shoot from the muzzle all the way out to roughly 225 yards are so with a 200 yard zero. This number can be extended further by determining the point blank zero of a cartridge especially a fast one. With a bow, the difference between 15 and 20 yards is a wounded deer. This is why bows have multiple aiming points. The sights give more reference points because it matters much much more.
I am not saying you are wrong because of your opinion but you are a dick because of how you present it. You are not superior because you have a scope with knobs on it. You are not superior because you have the newest sight on your bow. Guys are successful with much much less.
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So you need to resort to name calling --- Fairly sad state. This more about your personality than mine..
FYI I never said you needed knobs..
FWIW, 308 at a standard 2650fps (yep people use them for hunting) Drops roughly 38 inches by 350 yards.. the hunters 1moa group will bring that well over 40" even if you take away the 12" from the 200 yard zero your still working with a delta 28"+ on a perfect day.. Run a 10mph FV and you have about 15" of additional horizontal uncertainty..
The point being as a whole, most hunters do not practice enough, most you'll see at the range don't even shoot well at 100 yards.. Then not being willing to buy a $300 scope or a scope with some sort of subtentions and learn to use it, is very sad. If you can't understand that, maybe you should not be on a precision shooting forum. I happen to believe there is no need to error stack and we owe it to the animals we hunt.
FYI I hunt and live in the West, shots well over 200 are most common. Lastly, field bore sighting a scope issue is fine at 100, problematic to do so at 2x the distance (foot + drop compensation and physical thru the large FOV barrel issues). We've had many scopes go down or maybe involved in a fall, where the zero needs to be roughly checked without without the ability to shoot. But again, none of this must matter to you.
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Deleted member 113831
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It really depends on what scope you are gonna carry into the woods. If you are going to try to "long range hunt", then you need to be set up for long range precision (i.e. dialable scope with a 100 yard zero). Why? Because that is the most precise way to do it, for a number of reasons which have already been enumerated.
If you are gonna use a Leupy 3x9, then don't talk about long range, that is not a long range scope. Zero it 2" high at 100 yards (in effect, a 200 yard zero) and prepare yourself for that type of hunt.
Commingling vastly different equipment and objectives will set you up for failure. JMO
Edited to add: If you want to long range hunt, but are worried about bumping into an animal at close range, then be sure you have a FFP scope with illumination.
While walking around, have the illumination on and your scope dialed down to lowest power with your 100 yard zero. When you get to your final firing point where you can see distance, dial up your scope to the appropriate power and start making a mental range card by ranging prominent land features.
If you are gonna use a Leupy 3x9, then don't talk about long range, that is not a long range scope. Zero it 2" high at 100 yards (in effect, a 200 yard zero) and prepare yourself for that type of hunt.
Commingling vastly different equipment and objectives will set you up for failure. JMO
Edited to add: If you want to long range hunt, but are worried about bumping into an animal at close range, then be sure you have a FFP scope with illumination.
While walking around, have the illumination on and your scope dialed down to lowest power with your 100 yard zero. When you get to your final firing point where you can see distance, dial up your scope to the appropriate power and start making a mental range card by ranging prominent land features.
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The last paragraph doesn’t apply. If that were the case just bore site high at 100yards. Of course you said previously that you dont want to stack error as we owe it to the animals we hunt. Bore sighting before hunting after a drop is silly. You must shoot to rid that error.
You are correct that I shouldn’t have named called just as you shouldn’t be condescending in your delivery. We both made mistakes there.
I do appreciate the way you made your argument in this last post. Much more constructive.
The reason we have many times over the years, hunting and in matches needed to "bore sight" is to confirm nothing "moved" or was damaged. Especially when hunting on steep stuff a slip on our asses is common. If you hit the scope hard, we'll pull the bolt and check something relatively small, like a tiny bush or rock in the 90-110 range.. If the bore shadow looks perfect we are almost certain we are good. It is not a "re-sight in", but a confirmation step. This when you can't shoot to confirm or create a field zero. If it looks too low or high etc.. the gun is packed.
Last week, we did this again on a very nice hunting Zeiss scope. It looked like it was off, but his 200 yard zero had too much drop already added and was to far away for us to accurately tell if the scope was damaged. He thought it was fine, I did not. He later preceded to miss way over the back of close range Elk. So he packed his gun. My Elk tag was already filled so he switched to my gun. Had that been a 100 yard zero we would had 3-4" of gravity not 12 and a much easier time ensuring a small target image in the riffling was centered.
Remember a 200y yard zero, does not bore sight 2" high at 100, it has to deal with a lot more gravity drop.
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It really seems as if we have two separate schools of thought going on here, one for long range hunting and one for generic hunting. This being a long range shooting site, of course that is the lens we see everything through. The conversation turns from "I have to be able to get a shot off in 5 seconds" to long range ballistics discussion. We live in a world on compromises, if you are hunting in the woods don't take a LR hunting setup. Out west the old 30-30 isn't going to do well for 300 yard shots. In other words the right tool for the job.
Frank pounds it in (thank God cause I'm a slow learner) that long range provides us "time and opportunity". If you plan to shoot animals from long range it is going to require the proper equipment and time to do the job properly. Proper equipment means that you want a scope you can dial for the best accuracy and a 100 YARD ZERO. This doesn't mean you won't stumble upon an animal closer and scramble to turn down the magnification to make the 100 yard shot but you are still prepared for this circumstance.
Grabbing your lightweight rifle with a very low power optic with duplex reticle will work very well out to 300 yards if the shooter can do their part. This is how most of us that grew up hunting did it, and the rifle was 1 or 2 inches high at 100 yards to be in the "point blank range" using the top of the line ballistic chart in the back of the reloading manual.
The more money you spend on your equipment the better quality it should be and provides advantage. Better scopes = better glass for example. Pick your poison and understand that your 16lb LR rifle isn't the best choice for hunting the woods and your super light rifle with a 1-6 scope isn't the best choice for attempting long range shots.
I don't see where OP specified what he considers to be long range or what he is using for equipment. However he did specify he is looking for the best zero for long range and the answer to that is definitely 100 yards...
Frank pounds it in (thank God cause I'm a slow learner) that long range provides us "time and opportunity". If you plan to shoot animals from long range it is going to require the proper equipment and time to do the job properly. Proper equipment means that you want a scope you can dial for the best accuracy and a 100 YARD ZERO. This doesn't mean you won't stumble upon an animal closer and scramble to turn down the magnification to make the 100 yard shot but you are still prepared for this circumstance.
Grabbing your lightweight rifle with a very low power optic with duplex reticle will work very well out to 300 yards if the shooter can do their part. This is how most of us that grew up hunting did it, and the rifle was 1 or 2 inches high at 100 yards to be in the "point blank range" using the top of the line ballistic chart in the back of the reloading manual.
The more money you spend on your equipment the better quality it should be and provides advantage. Better scopes = better glass for example. Pick your poison and understand that your 16lb LR rifle isn't the best choice for hunting the woods and your super light rifle with a 1-6 scope isn't the best choice for attempting long range shots.
I don't see where OP specified what he considers to be long range or what he is using for equipment. However he did specify he is looking for the best zero for long range and the answer to that is definitely 100 yards...
First as sighted above 300-350 has way more gravity than most people realize. Secondly, most shooters using that system seem unprepared for 300ish yard shots.. I think If I was hearing "I zero at 200, because I shoot 200 and in" I would have a different reaction.
Lastly, the speed thing on target is almost silly as a subtention reticle is 100% about speed.
Here is an example of what frosts me:
Last week 2nd day of the opener, we hear 21-23 shots that appear to be coming from the area we are trying to close on some animals. We are looking at each other as we count and run out of fingers. Mind you this is BLM. Several days later we cross a camp with three guys. They talk about bagging 3 Elk already. The three first apparently, on the first day took shots at these animals at long range and misses were so bad they animals stayed. The day we heard the shots, they said they were about 300-350 yards..
They were shooting with the classic 200 yard zeros and duplexes. I know because I ended up asking about their setup after they admit to being the guys that took the crazy amount of shots. Ok it was three guys on three animals, I have no idea who missed more.. but come on right? I mean these guys did not take a shot that most hunter would say is outside there 200 yard zero..
I don't care if one hunts with slugs, a bow, a knife, open sights or a duplex . Just don't think a error prone system is good further than it should be shot without precision... 300, always ends up being more, hell any distance we set, usually gets pushed.
Todays scopes are cheap - if your going 300ys one should have invested in the time and equipment.. same for long range hunting.
Just wait until you are walking over to your kill and once you are within 25 yards shots start coming in on your already dead animal..... I hear ya, there are MANY idiots out there and I would argue most are not proficient with their weapon. In my mind it actually represents a lack of respect for the animal itself and the life that is being taken. Of course hunting is a thrilling experience but were are talking about Gods creations and life deserves a certain amount of reverence IMHO.
That story has nothing to do with how they zeroed their rifles and everything to do with how they suck. Even a slow short action cartridge has 8” of drop at 300 yards with a 200 hard zero. If a hunter cant hold slightly high and slightly into the wind to land the bullet in the 12” kill zome of an elk then he shouldn’t take that shot. Thats a 4moa killzone at 300 yards. I could do it open sight with my AK47 freehanded.
There are no right answers. For me I like 100yard zero as that has work for me in my calculation for other stuff.
There IS a right answer and it is 100 yards.... So even though you are wrong, you are correct
I’m not trying to win and Imthink you are misunderstanding me. We do have common ground. I agree that the proper gear and practice is necessary. We just disagree on what is the proper gear. I will argue against the example you used as a 300 yard shot with a duplex reticle is a chip shot if a guy takes anytime to practice. A leupold with a duplex qualifies as the the proper gear in your scenario.
For long range shooting or hunting as the OP asked and as you elude to, a 100 yard zero and a scope that can be dialed back and forth is necessary as the error for holdovers without a ruler gets greater and greater until it is almost impossible to reliably hit. This we can agree. That point is further than 300 yards especially on targets as large as medium to large game.
I agree with what you say more than you think.
@Skookum nailed it here.
@Long Range 338 made some good points as well.
I’m not a long range guy so bare with me ... if you have a 308 with a 100 yard zero where would the bullet hit at 50 and 150yards
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Deleted member 113831
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Uhm...wow...
I’m simple, so I keep my rifles all zeroed at 100 yards and that way I know where I am starting no matter what rifle I’m using.
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