1000 yard hits

#51
Re: 1000 yard hits

Wow. So Sterling it was my lack of technique that accounts for angular anomalies. Technical discussion makes my head hurt because all I had known before 1KBR was working on fundamentals.I still enjoy the discussion...no pain no gain. I was GREEN to 1KBR and the compulsive loading techniques of BR.
I am not nor was I then a noob. I will think twice before I chime in on another discussion in the LR section. Carry on.
 
#52
Re: 1000 yard hits



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since the rifle and ammunition are not as prone to inconsistency as the shooter, marksmanship is what we all should concentrate on, instead of this gobblygook which takes us off task. </div></div>

So people who disagree with your position are lesser persons, right? Didn't we leave that sort of debate technique behind on the Junior High playground? Demeaning a subject or those who discuss it has no place here or in any other forum of adult discourse.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will think twice before I chime in on another discussion in the LR section. Carry on. </div></div>

I have said this before, I will say it again, when people get heavy handed and egos take over, others will stop contributing, and then the only one's left will be the antagonizers. Not much fun... OR conducive to free exploration of the subject.

I personally am at a bit of a quandary here. I used to buy the "bullets go to sleep" argument because it described what I witnessed. But then I began to listen to well reasoned arguments from people who have WAY more experience and technical expertise in this area than I do and they began to convince me it had to be some sort of set up or shooter issue.

But Tom Sarver does not strike me as the sort of person to be lax about parallax adjustment, or shooter technique. How do we explain his example of .2's at 100 yds' and sub 2's at 1000? Not a lot of angular error there.

Granted we could just call that "perfect" shooting. But does such a thing exist? Or are there indeed other factors involved? Groper and Sandwarrior's explanations at least are worth some consideration without being pooh-poohed.

.02

John
 
#53
Re: 1000 yard hits

Fellow Students of Good Shooting,

Reading some of these posts reminds me of the lyrics from The Rolling Stones tune 19th Nervous Breakdown, the part about "your father still perfecting ways of making sealing wax", as so far, the discussion has been much to do about nothing, since there is nothing that the shooter can do to counter for a defective bullet.

The big picture here is external ballistics, and what's important about it is knowledge that the bullet trajectory is a definitive and uniform arc, which is effected primarily by drag, gravity, temperature, and wind. Countering for these effects is important; but, pondering or ruminating over the minutia of bullets "corkscrewing", "sleeping",or "waking up" is not. Also, the notion that angular error can somehow decrease with distance is absurd, it defies physical law, if groups appear to reduce in MOA at distance it's likely the result of less error, angular or other, from a more consistent position, parallax correction, and/or more consistent ammunition. Error from wobble which is not an angular concept may have, of course, something to do with these scenarios too.
 
#54
Re: 1000 yard hits

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Also, the notion that angular error can somehow decrease with distance is absurd, it defies physical law, if groups appear to reduce in MOA at distance it's likely the result of less angular error from a more consistent position, parallax correction, and/or more consistent ammunition. </div></div>

You are confused my friend, whilst you are correct in saying that "angular error" cannot decrease with increasing distance, you are confused because <span style="text-decoration: underline">this is not the point</span>!!!

Moreover (and by your own reasoning), the shooter angular errors in terms of shooting position, consistant ammunition, parralax etc ALWAYS GET WORSE with increasing distance... <span style="font-weight: bold">SO</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">i ask you again</span>, how is it possible that people can get smaller ANGULAR group sizes at longer distances ON A CONSISTENT BASIS - not just freakish good days, bad days etc?

Bullets, they yaw, its a fact. Bullet yaw effects accuracy, its a fact. Your reasoning of a simple arc, only applies once the bullet yawing has damped out to negligible levels, another fact. These facts have been proven by the military ballistics research laboratories around the world using instruments such as external dopplar radar tracking, and onboard yawsonde instruments that are fitted into large caliber projectiles to precisely measure their yaw angles and yaw frequency over their entire flight regime.

So what exactly is a defective bullet? One that doesnt yaw? They all do... the consideration is - by how much?
As a shooter, you do have the power to <span style="text-decoration: underline">choose the most effective bullet for your application</span>.
Do you suppose most all the top benchrest shooters use flat base bullets simply by chance? Or is it that perhaps it gives them an edge in accuracy...?

Or Perhaps we should all go back to shooting service rifles and bury our heads in the sand because its easier to understand... if you strive for precision, this is stuff you MUST understand or you will never be the best you can be- in addition to improving your marksmanship skill...
 
#56
Re: 1000 yard hits

I get that projectiles can pitch and yaw, etc. but I'm still absolutely stumped about how, even in a scenario with a test barrel in a test bed, with remote firing, in a hermetically sealed range setting, with match grade ammo - to eliminate shooter and enviro variables
wink.gif
a group can close up at longer ranges. Does not compute in my tiny brain..
 
#57
Re: 1000 yard hits

<span style="font-weight: bold">Because</span>, the flight path of a bullet is not a perfect arc, the bullet flight path looks like this, even when you take the shooter out of the equation!
A ramdom 5.56mm bullet ;
fig18.gif



The M80 7.62mmx51 bullet;
fig21.gif



fig28.gif


How do you expect a bullet to impact in small groups when its trajectory including its yaw, looks like this??? Remember that these graphs are greatly magnified in the yaw axis so that the effects can be visualized. Youll notice that the yawing is damped out and the precession becomes smaller. You can see in the graphs, that this yawing has approximately halved by the time it has travelled a distance of 8000 calibers for these bullets shown. 8000 calibers = 8000*.308inches = 68yds. This cyclic yawing continues to damp out until it is all but completely gone by 300m for almost every commercial projectile on the market. Then is it begins to increase again when it nears the transonic region and it starts to become less stable (shown in the 3rd graph)

At greater distances, its the AVERAGE vector and environmental conditions aswell as shooter errors that becomes more important (the direction the barrel is pointing) and is why you ususally only see shrinking angular group size when your talking about 100yd groups vs 200 or 300yds. It DOES NOT however, explain tom sarvers results of .2MOA @ 200yds and then consistently less MOA at 1000 if thats indeed what he was saying happens on a regular basis?
 
#58
Re: 1000 yard hits

I think I get it, from this discussion what I have come to understand is that if I hit the same spot more than twice in a row it basically comes down to more arse than class. If I manage to get a group at long range that seems to reduce in size then I'm reaching the maximum range of the and ideal velocity, if my group is huge and I'm shooting at a short distance >100yrds the bullet hasn't stabilised properly and its time to rethink the twist rate of the barrel in relation to the projectile I'm using and from now on I am not to think about anything other than basic fundamentals of marksmanship and wind/elevation corrections when on the firing mound.
So much for the film directors shooting movies where the hero just points and shoots and can wipe out an entire army of foes with ten rounds, all with fatal shots and no shots closer than 500 yrds.
I'll never believe the TV shows again.
grin.gif
 
#59
Re: 1000 yard hits

While your graphs are somewhat intriguing, even though they are enlarged for effect, what exactly are the units of measure for the yaw axis? It is hard to make out.

These appear to be so small that they are almost irrelevant. ?
 
#60
Re: 1000 yard hits

It is the yaw angle is in degrees... it will vary from bullet to bullet, same have very high initial yaw angles - usually boattailed bullets, and some very low angles - usually flat base bullets... it depends on many things including the barrel and the projectile design. The ones with lower initial yaw angles will be more accurate (provided everything else is identical ofcourse) and particularly noticeble at short range. The initial yaw angle and magnitude are effected by many things including muzzle jump or muzzle movement, the mach cloud of expanding gasses rushing around the projectile upon muzzle exit, and the projectile axial center of gravity /concentricity shape/balance, internal ballistics, in bore yaw, barrel vibration, etc. Some of it occurs randomly, some of it occurs more predictably. A highly skilled shooter with a good hold for example, will produce a fairly consistant muzzle jump, however the random nature of the mach cloud still means the initial yaw direction and magnitude are always variable, the net total yaw and its repeatability is better tho for the skilled shooter with the consistant hold, which is where the other argument becomes part of it RE: marksmanship.

The only thing i was trying to illustrate, is that marksmanship skill, CANNOT explain CONSISTENTLY smaller angular group sizes at longer distances because shooter error, ie angular error, ALWAYS increases the further out you go. There MUST be other reasons for it, and these are but some of them...

thats my contribution, im out...
 
#61
Re: 1000 yard hits

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: groper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Because</span>, the flight path of a bullet is not a perfect arc, the bullet flight path looks like this, even when you take the shooter out of the equation!
A ramdom 5.56mm bullet ;
fig18.gif



The M80 7.62mmx51 bullet;
fig21.gif



fig28.gif


How do you expect a bullet to impact in small groups when its trajectory including its yaw, looks like this??? Remember that these graphs are greatly magnified in the yaw axis so that the effects can be visualized. Youll notice that the yawing is damped out and the precession becomes smaller. You can see in the graphs, that this yawing has approximately halved by the time it has travelled a distance of 8000 calibers for these bullets shown. 8000 calibers = 8000*.308inches = 68yds. This cyclic yawing continues to damp out until it is all but completely gone by 300m for almost every commercial projectile on the market. Then is it begins to increase again when it nears the transonic region and it starts to become less stable (shown in the 3rd graph)

At greater distances, its the AVERAGE vector and environmental conditions aswell as shooter errors that becomes more important (the direction the barrel is pointing) and is why you ususally only see shrinking angular group size when your talking about 100yd groups vs 200 or 300yds. It DOES NOT however, explain tom sarvers results of .2MOA @ 200yds and then consistently less MOA at 1000 if thats indeed what he was saying happens on a regular basis?</div></div>

Gobbledygook! Not your explaination, just that it's moot. Here's why, while you can wonder all you want about ballistics, and even explain a notion about a particular phenomenon, there's no response to it by the shooter which will assure a better result.

Assuming the theory you presented on Tom's observation is astute, at the level of the shooter on the firing line, what's to be done? That's my point.

Until some ballistician comes up with a better bullet, or something better than today's method for sending a bullet down range by spinning it, this stuff for most of us will remain in the realm of "just some useless information, supposed to fire my imagination". Hmm, where did I here that before.

I appreciate contributions by most every one here with an informed opinion. Your explanation is interesting. It just leaves me asking, so what, since even if I accepted this explanation as fact, this revelation will not, by me being knowledgeable of it, help me in any way to become a more extraordinary shooter. Therefore, while it may be interesting, why entertain it when other stuff important to good shooting, on and off the firing line, is enough to keep most folks occupied for a lifetime.
 
#62
Re: 1000 yard hits

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: groper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Because</span>, the flight path of a bullet is not a perfect arc, the bullet flight path looks like this, even when you take the shooter out of the equation!
A ramdom 5.56mm bullet ;
fig18.gif



The M80 7.62mmx51 bullet;
fig21.gif



fig28.gif


How do you expect a bullet to impact in small groups when its trajectory including its yaw, looks like this??? Remember that these graphs are greatly magnified in the yaw axis so that the effects can be visualized. Youll notice that the yawing is damped out and the precession becomes smaller. You can see in the graphs, that this yawing has approximately halved by the time it has travelled a distance of 8000 calibers for these bullets shown. 8000 calibers = 8000*.308inches = 68yds. This cyclic yawing continues to damp out until it is all but completely gone by 300m for almost every commercial projectile on the market. Then is it begins to increase again when it nears the transonic region and it starts to become less stable (shown in the 3rd graph)

At greater distances, its the AVERAGE vector and environmental conditions aswell as shooter errors that becomes more important (the direction the barrel is pointing) and is why you ususally only see shrinking angular group size when your talking about 100yd groups vs 200 or 300yds. It DOES NOT however, explain tom sarvers results of .2MOA @ 200yds and then consistently less MOA at 1000 if thats indeed what he was saying happens on a regular basis? </div></div>

Thanks Groper - very interesting and clearly explained.
 
#63
Re: 1000 yard hits

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your explanation is interesting. It just leaves me asking, so what, since even if I accepted this explanation as fact, this revelation will not, by me being knowledgeable of it, help me in any way to become a more extraordinary shooter. </div></div>

It would appear according to Groper's explanation that the further you shoot, the better you'll look!
wink.gif


Seriously though... not every topic here is necessarily going to require a response from the shooter. I realize from the list in your sig. that is probably most important to you, since you teach others. But some of us just like to know the reason why, whether we can change it or not. And sometimes, in the understanding, revelations come forth that DO change the way we do things. Unexpectently.

John
 
#64
Re: 1000 yard hits

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your explanation is interesting. It just leaves me asking, so what, since even if I accepted this explanation as fact, this revelation will not, by me being knowledgeable of it, help me in any way to become a more extraordinary shooter. </div></div>

It would appear according to Groper's explanation that the further you shoot, the better you'll look!
wink.gif


Seriously though... not every topic here is necessarily going to require a response from the shooter. I realize from the list in your sig. that is probably most important to you, since you teach others. But some of us just like to know the reason why, whether we can change it or not. And sometimes, in the understanding, revelations come forth that DO change the way we do things. Unexpectently.

John</div></div>

The thing is, folks getting into shooting who are indeed new-bs, get ahold of this sort of information and it becomes important to them, distracting them from what is really important to good shooting. For these folks, it serves as an excuse for thier poor performance, since they believe their poor performance has nothing to do with not knowing how to shoot.
 
#65
Re: 1000 yard hits

This is a great thread, all.

I too have heard the theories of the bullet, "going to sleep" and have wondered about the subject quite a bit.

Most of my own experience seems to be where the angles broaden over distance.... I'm shooting a rifle that will shoot .3" 100yd groups and, I was out last Sat. with it at the 1000yd line and, I had a 10" AR500 plate I was shooting and, I hit it the last 15/20 rounds with a right to left wind going from -1 to 5mph.

The initial theory seems to explain the greater than expected vertical dispersion at 1000yds with my own rifle.

I don't doubt the possibility of the "sleeping bullet" theory either but, I'm not currently experiencing that with my own equipment at the moment.

I still have a lot to learn with loading etc. and, I still cut a few corners when loading my own ammo. ( like, I should be weighing cases if shooting cheap brass etc. ) I know that sort of stuff induces errors that could be removed.

For now and, for tactical applications, my rifle shoots fine but, it's not benchrest rifle ( with me loading for it )
 
#66
Re: 1000 yard hits

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your explanation is interesting. It just leaves me asking, so what, since even if I accepted this explanation as fact, this revelation will not, by me being knowledgeable of it, help me in any way to become a more extraordinary shooter. </div></div>

It would appear according to Groper's explanation that the further you shoot, the better you'll look!
wink.gif


Seriously though... not every topic here is necessarily going to require a response from the shooter. I realize from the list in your sig. that is probably most important to you, since you teach others. But some of us just like to know the reason why, whether we can change it or not. And sometimes, in the understanding, revelations come forth that DO change the way we do things. Unexpectently.

John</div></div>

The thing is, folks getting into shooting who are indeed new-bs, get ahold of this sort of information and it becomes important to them, distracting them from what is really important to good shooting. For these folks, it serves as an excuse for thier poor performance, since they believe their poor performance has nothing to do with not knowing how to shoot. </div></div>

Yes, I've heard Frank say the same thing. I don't disagree. But this *IS* Beyond 1000 Yards. Newbs really have no business here, to be fair. Maybe we need a disclaimer like in the reloading section. Why not? Frank has asked Bryan to preface his comments strongly that the subject matter of most of these conversations are esoteric and PALE in comparison to the error induced by poor shooter form. I think it's only fair to expect that people who come here be somewhat at the top of their game, both in the realm of shooting and discussion, because let's face it... some of this stuff get's really out there, and some can't be proven, so all the ingredients for a good pissing match are always just a few words away.
wink.gif


I don't see why we should limit our discourse because there is some risk that somewhere in America today some 19 YO kid will miss his intended target at 200 yds. and blame Coreolis Effect. The information is here on this site. If he can find this sub-forum, he can certainly find yours and Franks posts all over this site proclaiming the importance of fundamentals (even if the two of you can't agree on what they might be.
wink.gif
)

John
 
#67
Re: 1000 yard hits

I find it interesting that a lot of folks are discussing what is essentially gyroscopic stability and no one looks at a gyroscope to see what it does and then ask why it does it. My son has a gyroscope "toy" which is basically a pot metal cage with a flat wheel mounted inside it. When he wraps the string around it and pulls hard the gyroscope will oscillate for a few seconds and then stabilize. As the spinning wheel slows down the whole thing looses it's "balance" and finally falls over. Does not the gyroscope function on the same scientific law as a spinning bullet?

At launch the gyroscope is not perfectly true and it seeks to find stability (the first 100 or so yards of bullet flight). When it becomes stable it just sits there spinning and doesn't move around (200 to 1200 yards lets say). Then it starts to wobble and move around before finally falling over (subsonic range).

Why is it so difficult for folks to figure out that their boolet is unstable or "over stable" at launch but once it reaches stability THEN you can determine the angular measurement of accuracy.

Taking the above observation compared to some observed boolet flights you MIGHT just be able to draw the same correlation.

At 100yds the best you get is 1 MOA
At 300yds the group shrinks to .5 MOA and maintains that accuracy out beyond 1K yards.
Beyond 1K it really starts to fall apart as it looses velocity and gyroscopic stability.

Accuracy can only be predicted when the boolet is stable. Is it really that hard.

The only remaining question is to pick the twist rate that will stabilize your boolet at your speed for it's intended ranges.

View from the cheap seats....

Cheers,

Doc
 
#68
Re: 1000 yard hits

I think the real question is that, even knowing that the bullet does, in fact, gyrate (sp?), how can you expect greater accuracy at longer ranges than the extremes of the gyration angles? In other words, is it predictable enough to get better at range and settle in the middle or not?

In the example, you can use a top for example.... you can't say that a top will orbit in circles and settle in the middle of the circles it was making every time can you? ( maybe bullets are different ) there is no "z" axis in the top example.

This question is above my own pay grade.
 
#69
Re: 1000 yard hits

I'll say this then I'm out.

Groper has shown in excellent detail what a bullet does in flight.

As noted with the gyroscope, which I also pointed out using the analogy of a top, is slightly unstable upon initial launch. Then stability increases. It decreases until the critical point of the transonic range and finally to un-recoverable instability.

Also, if all you ever want to do is hit tens on the current high-power shooting program, with the bullets/ammo available, Sterling Shooter is right this information is past that kind of shooter. Sterling I believe you have this goal and I do not degrade that goal. However, what I and others are saying here is how do we slice that accuracy level in half? Or, even tenths? Most of us are pretty happy with a 10" group @ 1000 yds. There are those of us who say, "Good! Now I want a 5" group." And so on... The current standard to better is 1.397" @ 1000 yds. (held by Tom Sarver) I think this is shooting that we dedicated shooters need to sit up and pay attention to.

With that in mind, I have to ask, "Once to get to the plateau is that all there is and why get better? Because that is what I'm hearing from you Sterling is that once you've hit 'good enough' then you don't need to cut any tighter. Again, not saying that your 'good enough' isn't and shouldn't be a pretty tall order to begin with. It is, as I understand. And it should be. It's just that this discussion is oriented towards a more experienced shooter. And, while you are right about it not being for beginners, it isn't gobbledygook.
 
#70
Re: 1000 yard hits

Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooters by Bryan Litz.

Page 190

Deals with question of a rifle shooting smaller angular groups over longer ranges.

The Epicyclic Swerve is believed by many to be the mechanism for this observation. However, it is simply not possible. The Epicyclic Swerve is simply too small to account for the observed differences in angular group sizes. "...epicylic swerve at a maximum of only about .02 to .04 inches in the first 100 yards". "If the bullet is dynamically stable as most are at supersonic speeds, the bullet will dampen its oscillations and its swerve radius to nearly zero with the first 200 yards".

The faster spinning bullet with more gyroscopic stability completes the procession cycles faster than the slower spinning bullet.

The way to prove that the observed error is in fact caused by Parallax is to shoot at a series of targets with a distant aiming point. The bullet passes through the series of targets producing a measurable result. The distant aiming point eliminates the parallax error. You can repeat experiment with close aim point to then observe the parallax error.

I hope bryan doesn't mind the quotes, and I hope I correctly represented the books findings. I love the book by the way, and suggest it as reading for anyone interested in the topic.
 
#71
Re: 1000 yard hits

And to which i clearly put caveats - inside 300yds, and is only part of the problem... other members had already mensioned the parralax earlier in the thread, so it didnt need to be covered again.

The magnitude of this yawing effect is VERY different depending on the individual bullet. For bullets with high inherrant stability, such as a light to medium weight per caliber, short length, flat base bullet... and fired from standard for caliber twist rates, this effect can be pretty much ignored regardless of the distance fired, even at short range.

However, when you start dealiing with very long, heavy for caliber bullets, particularly those with long boat tails and aggressive VLD designs, (such as the ones we often use in beyond 1000yds forum goers) and then fire them from standard for caliber twist rate barrels, (as we often do), it becomes much more significant than you might beleive as the yaw angles start to get very high, even as much as 10degrees or more.

I have pushed this theory to its limit and fired VERY long bullets that were barely stable, ALL groups were horrible inside 600yds, but at 1000 and even 2000yds, ALL groups were half the angular size! Explain that? parralax is no longer a concern...
 
#72
Re: 1000 yard hits

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: groper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have pushed this theory to its limit and fired VERY long bullets that were barely stable, ALL groups were horrible inside 600yds, but at 1000 and even 2000yds, ALL groups were half the angular size! Explain that? parralax is no longer a concern...</div></div>

There is something compelling about someone who's actually experimented with this stuff as opposed to those who are willing to stand on the sidelines and cast dispersions (myself included).
wink.gif


John
 
#73
Re: 1000 yard hits

I agree with Groper in that when you run long heavy bullets out of standard twisted tubes you will observe this effect. I humbly submit that I do not have the pedigree that he appears to have at 2K yards and with big boomers. For the "average" shooter you can see it in a 300WM running 210 - 240's in a 10 twist out to past 200 yards. I see it in my 30-06 running 208's and 210 Bergers out past 100 yards but not nearly to the effect that I do in a 300WM.

I would surmise that a given boolet in a given twist it could be mathematically determined where gyroscopic stability occurs based on velocity. It seems that I have read a math formula for determining RPM from a rifle barrel somewhere.

That opens a whole new can of worms in that if you have the powder capacity to drive the big heavies fast(er) you could potentially tailor your load to perform at your preferred distance. Likewise you would also know that inside X # of yards the grouping is worthless for evaluative purposes.

On the other end of the spectrum it should be possible to determine at what RPM the boolet becomes unstable. The benefits to this should be obvious in that you can determine where you boolet goes to crap given X# of RPM's instead of the standard "subsonic transition". I make this point because long heavy boolets cross the transonic barrier much better than short light ones and are still accurate to some distance beyond that point.

While this is not a "new" observation maybe it is time that someone with a better computer and math skills than I have to take a look at the idea.

That which is scoffed at soon becomes grudgingly accepted and eventually becomes accepted as a self evident fact.

Cheers,

Doc
 
#74
Re: 1000 yard hits

Shooters,

What never ceases to amaze me is how ONE dicipline thinks it requires more skill than the other to shoot or to have skill in shooting.
I've heard several high power shooters put down BR shooters because they think BR is a sport that doesnt take skill. Well, being that I've shot BOTH I know it does. If a grand master high power shooter are so great of a shot then surely shooting 3" -4" groups with a rifle on a rest would be simple right? Yeah, ok.
Then come give it a whirl and see what skill it takes to win a match or shoot a 2"-3" group..centered. As for paralax..thats like the first thing I do...that's scope shooting 101.
For the record I have my own ideas of whats going on with bullet flight. I'm not so sure about the "sleeping" theory, so I wont pretend to know the anwsers as to why. But what I do know is if you can hold a rifle steady in HIGH POWER then you should be able to hold a rifle steady on a rest and whoop ALL the BR guys right? Well, I don't think so. I've shot prone, BR and tactical and EXTREME long range ALL with precision results.
Each one has it's challenges. I shot expert with a M16 in the Marines..everytime. So I think I can shoot with a sling and figure out FUNDAMENTALS. That's a cake walk. I will challenge ANY high power shooter in the WORLD to a 10 match agg. in BR OR tactical shooting..including Mr.Tubb. Because I already know the answer. One of the most knowledgable high power shooters I know, well maybe two...shoot here at TVP...ass handed in hat everytime by tactical and BR shooters. Just because someone doesnt shoot high power doesnt mean they can't shoot. that's plain silly.
The thread needs to go back to WHY groups open and close and open again and hits become just barely hits at long range.
If a high power comp rifle IS NOT tuned perfectly then guess what, it's not going to score as well as one that is, and that my friend requires a bench to see the TRUE results. Just like a tactical rifle.
I respect ALL disciplines of shooting. I don't feel one is BETTER than the other. I feel ALL must be blended together to form a more WELL rounded shooter..and believe me it does. There is no ONE answer..there are many, like a puzzle. and like puzzles each rifle is different and the loads are as well.
Figuring out how to shoot smaller groups with HIGHER scores is not a crime or a waste of time. Some day we will figure out how to shoot and score higher than we do now. Like I said in an earlier post. In 1000 yard BR around 2000- 2004 5" was the number to beat. Now it's 3". Geez...I wonder why? And how has it come to this? Shrinking groups 2" consitantly over the years.
I figured out a way to do it in HALF the time. Why? It's called pushing everything beyond what the normal shooters are going to do. Challenging OLD world theories and graphs and mathematics and what folks say can and can't be done...and shooting THOUSANDS of bullets at long range helps too. Oh, and listening to those who KNOW what they are tlaking about and expanding on it.
To sum it up, it takes THIS kind of passion and knowledge to make SNIPER/TACTICAL rifles capable of KILLING to save lives wiht one well aimed shot. Limit your thought process to ONE way and your limiting your goals to those of cave men. Even they kept advancing..they had to to survive.
The next couple of years with no doubt will be amazing when it comes to doors opened. Some people want to wedge the chair under the door knob on the other side so we can't break thru..for if we do books will have to be re-written. Like history has done so many times. I guess some never learn. I for one will will continue to breach the doors of doubt, and keep right on'a rolling. If I stop I might get bored, and if that happens to me and others, we may NEVER break the .250 MOA at a 1000 yards with consistancy.
Bullets and powder WILL get better, if they are TESTED by shooters who know what to look for and how to apply the knowledge to achieve the next best thing. I think the BEST ballistics guys should work with the BEST trigger pullers to gain the most ACCURATE knowledge. Not pick the guy who is the owners sisters husband best friends neigbors uncle who passed away and gave him the job at the example bullet MFG. This would help. Oh, and test bullets at LONGER ranges by folks who know what bullets already do..last but not least..hopefully they are smart enough the adjust the paralax before they do all this.
For the record..so everyone knows.
My so called chosen path to pursue EXTREME accuracy in Benchrest was to be able to have te knowledge and skill to make my TACTICAL rifles shoot as TIGHT of groups as possible to increase my chances of score/hits at LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNG range. If I would have stayed with MY...yes I am MAN enough to admit I to once thought BR was a fat man sport that required no skill till I got whooped by one. What If I had NEVER made peace with myself and decided to open that door? Then the 1000 record would still be 1.5XX. TVP would not exist. THOUSANDS of shooters would not be shooting long range and THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS would not have learned from what I and others have achieved. Someday someone will pick up where we leave off and find answers. Lets not stand in their way and tell them only ONE discipline matters.
What if Mr. Litz decided to be a Dentist instead...ahhh..now that's a thought huh?
 
#75
Re: 1000 yard hits

Good post

Also to add to your post, bullets going 300-400 FPS faster than the normal or average speed.. the flight time to target say 100-200 yards is much quicker and subtracts from the group/error of flight making it group tighter even at longer ranges. Hence the 240 SMK fired out of a 31" tube @ 3000 plus fps. or the Berger @ 3375...in a 1/10 twist..over stablizing could and can affect bullet flight, that's where the answer is.
I think??? I've shot .100" at 100 yards.. .200 at 200 yards and .250+/- at 300 yards. Slow them down and they open up. Speed them up and they open up. So I stay there. For now..till .30 VLD bullets get a better design or powders are a BETTER blend and rifling is perfected as in bore size/twist rates and quality..better triggers and lock time. I could go on and on. Bullets get the blame for everything when it's so much more than that. It's EVERYTHING touching it. Including the guy touching it off.
 
#76
Re: 1000 yard hits

Well, I wasnt going to get in on this but curiosity has got the best of me. I want to hear more about the consecutive one shot hits on the clay birds at a mile over an 8 hr period.

My first question is how the clays were placed. Were they placed on the ground, stuck to rocks or maybe a steel backstop. Did you have wind flags and what were the conditions on that day. Exactly how many clays were hit and how many rds were used. Also was there any hiding places for a guy with a supressed 10/22 within say 25 or 30 yds of the birds? JUST ASKIN!
 
#77
Re: 1000 yard hits

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: groper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Because</span>, the flight path of a bullet is not a perfect arc, the bullet flight path looks like this, even when you take the shooter out of the equation!
A ramdom 5.56mm bullet ;
fig18.gif



The M80 7.62mmx51 bullet;
fig21.gif



fig28.gif


How do you expect a bullet to impact in small groups when its trajectory including its yaw, looks like this??? Remember that these graphs are greatly magnified in the yaw axis so that the effects can be visualized. Youll notice that the yawing is damped out and the precession becomes smaller. You can see in the graphs, that this yawing has approximately halved by the time it has travelled a distance of 8000 calibers for these bullets shown. 8000 calibers = 8000*.308inches = 68yds. This cyclic yawing continues to damp out until it is all but completely gone by 300m for almost every commercial projectile on the market. Then is it begins to increase again when it nears the transonic region and it starts to become less stable (shown in the 3rd graph)

At greater distances, its the AVERAGE vector and environmental conditions aswell as shooter errors that becomes more important (the direction the barrel is pointing) and is why you ususally only see shrinking angular group size when your talking about 100yd groups vs 200 or 300yds. It DOES NOT however, explain tom sarvers results of .2MOA @ 200yds and then consistently less MOA at 1000 if thats indeed what he was saying happens on a regular basis?</div></div>

Gobbledygook! Not your explaination, just that it's moot. Here's why, while you can wonder all you want about ballistics, and even explain a notion about a particular phenomenon, there's no response to it by the shooter which will assure a better result.

Assuming the theory you presented on Tom's observation is astute, at the level of the shooter on the firing line, what's to be done? That's my point.

Until some ballistician comes up with a better bullet, or something better than today's method for sending a bullet down range by spinning it, this stuff for most of us will remain in the realm of "just some useless information, supposed to fire my imagination". Hmm, where did I here that before.

I appreciate contributions by most every one here with an informed opinion. Your explanation is interesting. It just leaves me asking, so what, since even if I accepted this explanation as fact, this revelation will not, by me being knowledgeable of it, help me in any way to become a more extraordinary shooter. Therefore, while it may be interesting, why entertain it when other stuff important to good shooting, on and off the firing line, is enough to keep most folks occupied for a lifetime. </div></div>

If you ever want to see this first hand get a BMG and load up APIT or spotter/tracer and fire it out to over 1000m, have the observer stand about 50m one side,. I agree with SS there are other more important things to worry about that can be controlled by the shooter though.
 
#78
Re: 1000 yard hits

All right folks, I just fininished busting a clay bird at a mile. I taped the bird to some AR plate at 1760 and piled up a few rds to see how many I would waste before doing some damage. The rifle is a 338/408 in a Lawton 8500 action with a 9 twist Lawton barrel. Bullet was a 300 SMK. I fired the first rd, there was a big WHOOP and the bird disappeared, turned out the poi was about 2 in. low and 3 in. right. The bird was busted by the bullet fragments and/or the vibrations of the metal due to the impact.
 
#80
Re: 1000 yard hits

They were placed on the ground. Spaced about 2' apart side by side from left to right. Three wind flags one at 350 one at 700 and one at 1000. Wind was present 3-5 mph??? If you READ the post SHOT FOR SHOT then it would explain how many rounds. As for the guy with the suppressor (are you serious?) we dont need to cheat to hit targets. Just saying. And this isn't the ONLY time in 9 years this has been done. I could have a dozen or so CONFIRMED shots explained to you by my customers who have seen it done on birds and other small objects. But it would'nt do any good. You either believe or you don't.
If I'm reading your post correctly your implying cheating or rigging it to look like hits. Some posts are taken out of text so I'm just asking.
 
#81
Re: 1000 yard hits

I think your fishing for pissing contest. I'm not saying i can do it every time. Although I DID that day and lots of times before and after. Our 12"x12" plate has been rung lots of time at a mile on the FIRST shot, by myself and some customers shooting the Hulk with be giving them the dope. If they wanting to chime in and waste their time they could tell ya.
Lets just say you would'nt want to be sitting next to the clay bird if I was shooting at it. The answer may just smack you in face.
This is where posts and threads go bad. Shooters try to help others by using raw data and EXPERIENCE and non believers have to step in and cast doubt. Hey it's a free world go right ahead if it makes your envy go away. Or come on out and join us. There should be a moderator to control this to keep threads on track. It's ok to question or to be curious but to imply cheating or BS without actually know what your talking about is wrong. It's a negative post at that point.
 
#82
Re: 1000 yard hits

Tom, surely you dont expect to come on here and claim that you can hold 1/4 min at 1 mi. consistantly and on demand with out someone asking questions. The fact that these birds were sitting on the ground speaks volumes. Go back and get a piece of cardboard target backing and trace around the clay bird, paint the circle the color of your choice and fire away. See how may lands in the circle. If you can stay inside the circle all day on demand I will then be impressed. OH, by the way since I made my last post I went two for two on the clay birds at a mile taped to the steel. One of the shots struck the steel a full foot from the clay and it exploded as if it were a direct hit. I suspect you are seeing some of the same results. Go paint the circles and if all your shots land in the circles you can ligitamately claim you are holding sub/quarter at a mile, until them you are just blowing smoke. And no, I was not serious about the guy hidden with the 10/22, I did suspect the clays were on the ground and you do not know if it was true inside the rim hits or if the poor little guys died from colatteral damage. Anyway I am impressed by your accomplishments and take my hat of to anyone who puts five under two inches at 1000. I am pretty much on board with everything you have posted until you posted the story about the clays. I do not doubt that occurance happened exactly as stated but I would bet some if not all of the clays were busted by flying debris. You do good work, keep it up.
 
#83
Re: 1000 yard hits

No, your wrong again. The bullets hit the birds direct.
Just as they do at 1000 yards which youcan clearly see the bullet punch throught them. If your on bored with my posts then you must be one hell of a shot. Good deal. Then if that was the case then you would know what your talking about and would'nt truy expplaining to me how clays birds get broke by bullets. I would say I shot about 10,000 more clay birds at 1000 yards and a mile wiht a rifle than you so I know what it looks like when it's a DIRECT hit. It's not a shot gun. This is how I know you have no clue about breaking birds at long range. In the dirt you can hit .5 inches away and it WONT break the bird. Same in the sand lie at our 1000 yard line. You can actually CLIP a corner or piece off if it's not a direct hit. Clay birds are not that fragile..unless your shoot them hangin on steel and even then it's not all that often they will EXPLODE.
I've hit .5" in from the edge of birds at 1000 yards and flip them in the air..because I missed it...and they DONT break. I adjust and break it with the next shot.
I don't mind if you ask questions please do.
 
#84
Re: 1000 yard hits

Some if not all? This isn't an illusion. Obviously your not on board. Please, lets move on to something else and drop it. Your lack of knowledge is shinning through and this is going no where. There are about 500 shooters who could tell you they've have seen it over the years. I guess they are BS'rs too.
 
#85
Re: 1000 yard hits

Tom is a perfectionist. He has the skill and equipment to build a very accurate rifle. He has the tools and technique to build almost perfect reloads. Tom is a world record holder in LR RB. He literally lives and breaths long range shooting. And he has a 1 mile range in his f&%$**g back yard.

I have met Tom once and know a little about his character. If he told me he can shoot clay birds at 1 mile the only question I would ask him is if he can teach me to do it.

If someone offers their experience, knowledge, or technique the one receiving the information should consider their self fortunate. Tom does this regularly and catches hell for it. I'm surprised he hangs around.
 
#87
Re: 1000 yard hits

My kryptonite is not being able to ignor stupid posts. We have already hung clay birds on steel etc. and you still have to hit them to break them. Thats how I know he has no clue.
Like I said before, the few hundred who appreciate the info and FACTS are worth a couple of those who don't.
 
#90
Re: 1000 yard hits

Sure,

I used 240 SMK's that day and for 1000 yard BR along with Berger 210's. Best luck with 240's with a particular barrel.
I use Berger 210's for my .300 Hulk tactical rifle and 140's for my .260 rem. as of now.
210's shoot great and very flat out to one mile. The 240 SMK is great out to 2000 yards. They both work great for hunting too.
208 AMAX is an amazing bullet too at long range but prefers a certain speed for sure. I've tried just about every combination of bullets till they blew up. Berger hunting 168's are crazy fast and flat to 600 yards. This is a special purpose load in the Hulk. I have about six loads I use for different applications and mood.
Having a shooting range in my back yard has helped me learn more about what is and I can apply those ideas and facts on paper..anywhere anytime, not just here. This is my training ground and testing facillity and that goes for many others who are on a quest. Even a non believer will show up a time or two and appreciate the results afterwards. Several .308 win. shooters have left with the knowledge to engage targets ACCURATELY out to ONE MILE.
 
#92
Re: 1000 yard hits

I knew when I posted what I saw,there would be some that would not believe the story. It is indeed fact. There is no illusion or trick shots,just plain great shooting.

Tom is ate up with shooting. I think he goes too far at times to try to appease some people though. At the range or on these boards. It would be a loss to many shooters if he would quit coming to this site. It is worth a trip to going to Thunder Valley,and seeing if he can shoot. One can at least try to prove Tom right or wrong by testing. I'm sure he will let you take a stab or two at the mile steel with his rifle.

He has shown me a lot about long range shooting. But the most important part he taught me was the confidence in myself with my equipment.


van
 
#93
Re: 1000 yard hits

Tom, since you and others popooed my post about breaking three clays at one mile in my back yard against steel w/o a direct hit, I feel I must defend myself here where I was called a liar. You indicated it took a direct hit to break the clays with a steel backer. I had just witnessed the 338/408 break the three mentioned so I thought I would see how repeatable this occurance was. I went up to the steel and taped a clay to it, I then drew a circle around it to mark its place so I could measure the distance from where the rnd hit in relation to where the clay had been. I placed my 18 volt belt about 20 ft in front of the steel with the light shining on the steel. I then backed off 100 yds and uncased my pet 308. The first shot struck the steel 4 in under the clay and there was a spectacular desinigration of the bird. I went to the target and sure enough there was the fresh splash centered 4 in from the circle I had drawn.

At that point I wanted to see what a .223 would do. To make a long story short any time the 55 gr 223 struck the steel within 6 in of the bird it would bust. If the rnd struck within 3 in. it would explode. I then placed one on a verticle clay and gravel bank and shot 2 in. to the left. The bird literally exploded. So folks, you dont have to take my word for it. You dont even have to spend the money to buy a 338/408 and spend a sack full of money learning how to put a rnd. on target at a mile to determine if flying jackets,gravel,lead splatter etc. will break the clays. Just take your 308 or 223 and go do it.

One of the founding fathers stated ( Question everything with boldness, even the very existance of God.) I reakon if he felt comfortable questioning God I should not worry too much about questioning a mere mortal.

Oh, CK this is what is so neat about having a range in the back yard. When someone makes statements that dont seem quite right concerning what certian rifles or bullets will or will not do it is a simple matter to go upstairs and pick up the combo in question, step outside and see what the laws of physics has to say obout it.
 
#95
Re: 1000 yard hits

Tom, Groper, Augustus, and many others,

We are kindred spirits. We explore the same passion, perhaps in different ways, definitely in different locales. My guess is that if we were all to go the the pub and have this conversation over a good beer (or three) it would be more congenial. It's a lot easier to call someones character into question when we are not face to face. A little benefit of the doubt would go a long way here.

My hope is that we can collaborate rather than compete, for the good of the sport. We all lose when someone stops contributing for whatever reason.

I'm really not as New Age-y as I sound... I just have hope that we CAN all get along, learn from each other and perhaps one day... have that beer.

John
 
#96
Re: 1000 yard hits

Your so way off base. Apples to oranges. Re-read my posts because obviously you misunderstood what I said. What distance are you shooting clay birds with a .223 or .308?
I'm shooting them at 1000 and ONE mile...and NOT hanging them on steel. It takes DIRECT hits when they are laying on the ground or on sand to break birds. AGAIN..after breaking a few thousand of them at long range I should know. RE-READ THE POSTS. And what DISTANCES are YOU doing this test?
 
#97
Re: 1000 yard hits

Tom, at 5:25 PM this date you posted that you had lots of experience hanging birds on steel and you still had to hit them before they would break. This is patently false and I proved it. For those that dont believe it go shoot some. They will also break sitting on the ground even from a near miss from a 223. As stated in my PM I shot another one since my last post with the 338/408 at 100 yds. Impact was 4in. to the left and there was not enough left of the little guy to say grace over. Granted this is only 100 yds and the amount of energy is staggering at that distance. Fragments from the 300 SMK can do some serious damage even at distance. I was shooting the other day at 1020 yds at a spot painted on an AR plate. The bullet sturck the plate and immediately there was a white cloud in front of the target. As it turned out I had set the can of white spray paint on a rock in front of the plate and a couple of feet to the right of the spot. When I went to the target I found the bullet fragments had penetrated the paint can causing the white cloud. The can had no holes in it other than the little frag holes.

I have other experiences with bullet fragments doing wierd things. Trooper Rocky Eales was my partner On the Indian Nation Turnpike for two yrs. He was also a part of our tactical unit who was attempting to serve a warrant on an individual. As Rockys' unit entered the driveway the bad guy stepped out on the porch and engaged them with an AR while they were inside the unit. Rocky kicked the door open and reached up with his left hand and grabbed the top of the door above the window to assist him in exiting the unit. As he exited a .223 rd went through the door post and fragmented. A little piece about the diameter of a pencil lead and about an inch long hit him in the left arm pit, penetrated deeply and went through his auorta. He died as he reached the back of the unit.
 
#98
Re: 1000 yard hits

this is stupid to even chime in on, but we were shooting clays yesterday at 960yds, and there were 4 of us shooting. one with a 6.5 grendel, me with a 6.5x47 lapua, a 7mag and a 300h&H. we missed quite a few of them by mere inches(1-3") and not one ever broke by a close miss. but they were placed in soft, sandy soil.

augustus, if you set them on hard clay and gravel, like you said, then they are going to obviously break by a near miss, that's common sense. but if you have them on sand, they won't break by a near miss, that is also common sense.

this thread started really good, please get back on track, and stop talking about bullet frags. we could be learning a lot here. also, i come in peace;)
 
#99
Re: 1000 yard hits

Im with you bro, but if we are going to talk about 1/4 min rifles at one mile, I would be much more comfortable if the rds were going through a well defined circle on paper. Thats all I have continue on.
 
#100
Re: 1000 yard hits

Again your wrong about the birds. And no birds dont break because of near misses at LONG range. 100 yards is not even close to 1000 yards or one mile energy and fragmentation.
That's common sense. How many birds have you shot at 1000 yards or even a mile? None I suspect. Or you could go to 1000 yard br forum and ask folks over there whats up and they will tell you your wrong. We shoot 600 and 1000 yard BR matches here for 8 years. I've shot 1000 yard BR for 10. That thousands of rounds fired at clay birds and NEVER have I EVER broke a bird with a NEAR miss. YOU HAVE TO MAKE A DIRECT HIT AT 600..1000 and ONE mile to break them. Even if they are on hard ROCKY DIRT...which that is EXACTLY what our upper berm is at 1000 yards. How many HUNDREDS of shooters do you want me have chime in here to prove to you your WRONG. And since we are on 1/4 MOA rifles I never said it was at ONE MILE. BUT on good days with the right conditions I have shot .5 MOA at one mile or 5 shot groups you could put your hand over CENTERED. Please tell us how many birds you have shot at again at 1000 yards..or a mile so we can end this once and for all because come htis weekend I'm goint to prove to you in front of your fan club you wrong. Care to place a bet. I would suggest going an findin ga place to shoot 1000 yards and mile before you do.
Next time compare apples to apples. And for your info my 1000 yard BR rifle IS a quarter MOA rifle...at 1000 yards.
We will have the proof after this weekend for if you dont believe the answers you get over on www.benchrestcentral.com 1000 yard forums. Your assuming you know the answer to something you have no clue about, obviously. Your INACCURATE data/tests proves nothing except and 100 yards and that is NOT always true there. Again, just for argument sake I will show you. It not to prove you wrong..it to show those who now question what is now. Incorrect info is alive and well.
And for the record, when I fire a round from the bench I can watch/see the bullets trace ALL the way to the target..it never leaves the scope..and litterally watch the bullet DIVE into the MASS of the bird. If it hits .5"...PLEASE READ...5 INCHES from the bird on ROCKY DIRT..IT WILL NOT BREAK! I've spotted for HUNDREDS of shooters over the years at 1000 yards and seen several bullets PUNCH through the CENTER of the bird and it NOT explode. So there again you are wrong. And this is with a 60 power Lieca 77 where I can watch THE BULLET fly all the way to the target.
One thing I've learned..NEVER ARGUE UNLESS YOU KNOW THE FACTS...and in this case I know the FACTS. So, with said.. answer the question...HOW MANY BIRDS HAVE YOU SHOT AT..at 1000 yards? or even 600? let alone a mile? I will anwser it for you...NONE or we would'nt be having this converstation.
 
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