110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

[jfields]

Just looking for some opinions here.

I have been reloading Lapua brass for my 110BA .338LM, and am getting ejector swipes, heavy bolt lift and stuck cases. I know these are all signs excess pressure, but it doesn't make sense that this is the case. This is the second firing of this box of 100 new cases. The load that I settled on for the virgin brass was 89.6 grains of Retumbo under a 300 gr. Scenar set at 3.900. This load was shooting .5 MOA, and while I did have a stuck case or two on that load, I chalked that up to the 110's tight chamber.

I expected that the load would change on the second firing, and I really thought I would be able to up the charge and hopefully get a few more FPS. It seems the opposite happened. 89.6 grains resulted in 2 out of 3 stuck cases, so I started backing off, and am now at 88.5 grains. I am still getting the odd stuck case, but not very often.

I'm at a loss.

I did notice something strange when I was dis-assembling some of the loaded rounds. It took all the strength I have and some whacks with a dead-blow hammer to unseat the bullets from the case. I was using the press and an RCBS collet puller. Can having the bullet that tight in the case create more pressure than normal.

Any thought or opinions are appreciated. The current load is only yielding a little over 2600 FPS. If I can't get this up a bit, I may have to try something different.

Thanks in advance,

Shaky

 

[High Binder]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shaky97</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Can having the bullet that tight in the case create more pressure than normal.
</div></div>

YES!

Sounds like your neck tension is way too tight which has the same effect as crimping. You're neck tension should be .002-.003".

Is you loaded bullet touching the lands and if so by how much?

 

[Big Dog Steel]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

Shaky, For what it is worth...the last batch of Retumbo I had seemed to be hotter than some of the previous batches I have had. I was getting pressure signs from retumbo using the same amount of retumbo as H1000.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

The neck tension may have a part in it, I'm not sold on that idea. Are you FL or neck sizing? Bushing or not?

I've had it explained two ways to me. One, after first firing, you have increased case capacity, up your charge. TimeLinex on here just had a similar issue, not pressure, but no velocity.

The second way, after first firing, the case is sized to the chamber, so no energy will be absorbed sizing the case, so it can result in over pressure with same charge.

And I wouldn't think a factory Savage would have a tight, match chamber.

If it was me, I would try a slower powder, try get my velocities back.

 

[jfields]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

High Binder,

Forgive me, but I do not know how to check neck tension. Could you point me to a place I could read up on it?

osuarchitect,

I have only been able to buy Retumbo in 1 lb. jugs. I try to get the same lots, but rarely can. I'll look for an 8lb jug online.

Thanks!

 

[High Binder]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shaky97</div><div class="ubbcode-body">High Binder,

Forgive me, but I do not know how to check neck tension. Could you point me to a place I could read up on it?
</div></div>

You'll need a set of calipers but here's the gist of it:

If the neck wall thickness is 0.0125" (measured with the blades on the caliper or a ball mic which is better but not necessary) then the total of both sides is 0.0125" x 2 = 0.0250". Our bullet is 0.338" in diameter so the loaded cartridge should have an outside neck diameter of 0.338" + 0.025" = 0.363". So thge final diameter will be 0.363" and we want to have 0.002" - .003" neck tension so you'll need to size the neck to .360" - 0.361".

Does that make sense?

 

[jfields]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

That makes perfect sense! I'll try it tonight and let you know what I come up with.

Can I adjust my Redding dies to change neck tension?

 

[High Binder]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shaky97</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That makes perfect sense! I'll try it tonight and let you know what I come up with.

Can I adjust my Redding dies to change neck tension? </div></div>

There are a bunch of factors involved so you'll have to do some experimenting but you'll probably need different neck bushings. Something like these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=neck+bushings+redding

You might also look into 'neck turning' and check the size of you expander ball.

 

[jfields]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

I'll take the measurements on a few cases tonight and see what I come up with. My die set came with a neck sizing die, but I have never used it. I am also going to try cleaning the inside of the necks with a brass brush chucked in a hand drill before I size them. I don't think the tumbling media cleans this area very well.

-Shaky

 

[jfields]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

Sorry, Milo. I missed your post this morning. I am FL sizing. I have a neck sizing die, but I have never used it. I am not sue if this factory Savage chamber is tight, but I do believe there is something funky about it. It will absolutely not shoot factory Hornady offerings, and my reloads are pretty mild according to Quickload. I am going to try a few things and if I can't make some headway, I'll send it back to Savage for them to check out.

Thanks,

Shaky

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

Shaky,
I kinda have the same problem, a 7mm Saum. I don't have a sticky bolt, just ejector marks, and a bolt face full of brass.
I can't shake it, nothing works, I've lost 200 fps from start.

If it wasn't so accurate, I would rebarrel it.

 

[jfields]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

I was able to make it home for lunch and take some measurements. Here is what i found:

Brass thickness= .015. I measured several cases and I got a couple readings at .016, but most were .015.

I also measured a 300 Scenar and a 300 SMK, and both were .338.

I measured several loaded rounds and every one measured .366.

So...
.015X2=.030+.338=.368

If my loaded rounds measure .366, this means I have .002 neck tension, correct?

-Shaky

 

[jfields]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shaky,
I kinda have the same problem, a 7mm Saum. I don't have a sticky bolt, just ejector marks, and a bolt face full of brass.
I can't shake it, nothing works, I've lost 200 fps from start.

If it wasn't so accurate, I would rebarrel it. </div></div>

Milo, is this on a Savage? I get some brass on the bolt face as well.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

Shaky, mine is a custom, older Lawton 7500 action, brux barrel.
For bushing, subtract .002 from .366= .364, buy a .364 bushing.

 

[littlerascal56]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

I ran a .365 Redding bushing w/Lapua brass and didn't have any problems like that on my 110BA. Keep the brass trimmed...the Savage likes it short.

I did remove my ejector plunger & spring, as I don't like looking in the grass for $2.50 Lapua brass. This made a difference on bolt lift also. The ejector was leaving a mark in the brass face before...looked like a "smiley face"!

 

[High Binder]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBore56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did remove my ejector plunger & spring, as I don't like looking in the grass for $2.50 Lapua brass. </div></div>

Damn that's a good idea! I think I'll do something like that too only I think I'll just drop a few coils and see how it reacts.

 

[Grizzdude]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

Hey guys I got the same savage 110ba, I noticed on my bolt face a couple minor dents. Do your bolt faces show any of this? I have a thread here with pics, http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...059#Post3698059

thanks

 

[High Binder]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grizzdude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys I got the same savage 110ba, I noticed on my bolt face a couple minor dents. Do your bolt faces show any of this? I have a thread here with pics, http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...059#Post3698059

thanks </div></div>


Are you talking about the little dent in the 11:00 position on the bolt face?

Looks like gas passing by the primer cup. Or something else, that's weird.

 

[littlerascal56]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

Grizz- my bolt face was smooth and didn't have any dents like yours. Not sure what caused those, although you could remove the ejector and polish that face with a Dremel that had a flat sanding pad attached. Those dings should not be there for sure.

My ejector would not push all the way back into the bolt face..removed it and found a bunch of "rusty crud" on the spring and in the hole, causing it to bottom out. Flushed the hole w/spray solvent, but ended up not putting spring/ejector back in bolt. Works much better.

 

[Grizzdude]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grizzdude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys I got the same savage 110ba, I noticed on my bolt face a couple minor dents. Do your bolt faces show any of this? I have a thread here with pics, http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...059#Post3698059

thanks </div></div>


Are you talking about the little dent in the 11:00 position on the bolt face?

Looks like gas passing by the primer cup. Or something else, that's weird. </div></div>

yeah at 11:00 and the other is at 7:00, real weird because I'm cleaning this thing real good after every shot so far. I wasn't too worried about the scratch at 7:00 but the one at 11:00 has got me thinking. Thanks for the input bigbore

 

[aloreman]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

my savage 110hs has a short tigh chamber. i had the same problems till i trimmed the cases under minimum and turned the necks to .0135. now it works like a champ

 

[jfields]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my savage 110hs has a short tigh chamber. i had the same problems till i trimmed the cases under minimum and turned the necks to .0135. now it works like a champ </div></div>

Are the 110HS and the 110BA the same gun in different stocks/chassis?

-Shaky

 

[High Binder]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shaky97</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my savage 110hs has a short tigh chamber. i had the same problems till i trimmed the cases under minimum and turned the necks to .0135. now it works like a champ </div></div>

Are the 110HS and the 110BA the same gun in different stocks/chassis?

-Shaky </div></div>

I have the 110FCP and I think all three are the same but I know that the FCP and the BA are the same.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The neck tension may have a part in it, I'm not sold on that idea. Are you FL or neck sizing? Bushing or not?

I've had it explained two ways to me. One, after first firing, you have increased case capacity, up your charge. TimeLinex on here just had a similar issue, not pressure, but no velocity.

The second way, after first firing, the case is sized to the chamber, so no energy will be absorbed sizing the case, so it can result in over pressure with same charge.

And I wouldn't think a factory Savage would have a tight, match chamber.

If it was me, I would try a slower powder, try get my velocities back. </div></div>

I full sized all the brass, and adjusted the seating and its back to what it was on the virgin brass.

To the OP.... use less neck tension, full size the brass and make sure your seating the bullet at the correct length.

Savages do not have 'match' chambers, but they have always been known to be tight chambers.

 

[jfields]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my savage 110hs has a short tigh chamber. i had the same problems till i trimmed the cases under minimum and turned the necks to .0135. now it works like a champ </div></div>

My brass is trimmed to 2.720. How short can you trim the brass and not start creating other problems?

-Shaky

 

[timelinex]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my savage 110hs has a short tigh chamber. i had the same problems till i trimmed the cases under minimum and turned the necks to .0135. now it works like a champ </div></div>

I measured my chamber with sinclairs neck length gauge and it was .03" above book max..... I don't see myself trimming more than maybe once in my brass's entire life cycle! So don't automatically assume that your necks need to be trimmed back for a 110ba.

 

[aloreman]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

i didnt automatically "ASSUME" i had similar issues to yours and took a cerrosafe cast of my chamber and measured all the dimensions with a micrometer

 

[timelinex]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i didnt automatically "ASSUME" i had similar issues to yours and took a cerrosafe cast of my chamber and measured all the dimensions with a micrometer </div></div>

I th there has been a misunderstanding, I replying to you, but rather telling the original poster to not automatically assume his problem is a trimming problem.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

I'm going to look into this cerrosafe casting of a chamber, being a kinesthetic learner this will be interesting.

Some of us reloader's have smarts really, really good you know.

 

[Ishallbie O'Cullkillin]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

I have the 110Hs fcp, Lapua brass, same issues. trimming cases shorter than minimum solved it for me.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MattK287</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the 110Hs fcp, Lapua brass, same issues. trimming cases shorter than minimum solved it for me. </div></div>

How much shorter did/do you have to trim? I think book is 3.014", but I'm going on memory.

Maybe it's just a short chamber, not a 'tight' chamber, that's causing the problem?

Short leade would be an issue.

Chris

 

[littlerascal56]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

I also trimmed all my new Lapua .338 brass to 3.014, per Savage recommendation. After the first firing, it was 3.024 (right out of the gun, unsized), so there must be some room to stretch in that chamber.

Got a new Savage 14 in .243, and bolt closed HARD on new WW .243 virgin brass. Had to run it all thru my sizing die before loading, which made bolt close normal. This gun has a tight chamber, but shoots great groups w/87 V-MAX bullets, so I can't complain.

 

[Ishallbie O'Cullkillin]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

Just .005".

 

[Ishallbie O'Cullkillin]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

Disregard my last. I was mistaken, in that I originally began trimming .338LM brass to 2.724", which is maximum case length. I am now trimming cases to 2.714", and am no longer having stuck cases in the 110FCP-HS, even pushing max loadings. Approaching 200 round count in this rifle.

 

[esromvre]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

I had something simaler to what you are having. I have had a HTR for years and the new barrel did this often working with the manufacture we found that the chamber was not allowing the brass to expand and contract. they set me up with a differnt chamber and now not any problems just a possability. I went through all the steps with the reloading and rechecking that I could.

Have you noticed that the ones that seem to stick comming out feel differnt going in????

 

[Luky]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

Interesting... Sounds similar to the issues I am having with my 10BA-LE in .308. Keep getting pressure signs, sticky bolt, occasional stuck case, brass on bolt face, round mark on head stamp from ejector, etc. but I am shooting a middle load of Varget (43.4gn) with a 175SMK... (45gn is max book load). Mine definitly has a tight chamber too as my FL sized brass needs to be at the minimum (or slightly under) for the bolt to close on it easily. (Using a Lyman case length headspace gauge for checking case length).

 

[lisajackusde]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

And I wouldn't think a factory Savage would have a tight, match chamber.

If it was me, I would try a slower powder, try get my velocities back.

 

[vh20]

Re: 110BA .338-High pressure where it shouldn't be.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shaky97</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was able to make it home for lunch and take some measurements. Here is what i found:

Brass thickness= .015. I measured several cases and I got a couple readings at .016, but most were .015.

I also measured a 300 Scenar and a 300 SMK, and both were .338.

I measured several loaded rounds and every one measured .366.

So...
.015X2=.030+.338=.368

If my loaded rounds measure .366, this means I have .002 neck tension, correct?

-Shaky </div></div>

Well, I'm the new guy here and don't have 1/10th the experience of a lot of folks here. But skimming through this thread I don't see where anyone answered this question. I may be wrong, but I don't see any way you can determine neck tension from measuring a loaded case. That case neck o.d. has been forced to its current dimension by the seating of the bullet. It has no choice but to expand, but you have no idea how much force it took to make that happen. I believe you have to measure the re-sized case neck o.d. (and neck wall thickness) BEFORE seating the bullet so that you'll have an idea what kind of force will be required for the bullet to seat. Once you seat the bullet, that neck gets expanded to the same size (.338 + neck wall thickness) regardless of how much tension there is on it...right?

I still think it shouldn't be that hard to pull your bullets.