112 match burners tumbling

[Gtscotty]

Here's the response I got from Barnes, the pictures I sent showed the boxes/lot numbers and measurements of shank vs pressure ring for the 112gr MBs In question and 108gr ELDs (kind of a control). My issues were with annealed brass, and I asked what neck tension they were using in their 6BR, but no response.

"Gtscotty,



Yes, we received your email/pics. Thank you for that. Several things/facts. These bullets are within our design/manufacturing specs. From initial design through shipping, our bullets go through a multitude of inspection steps. Looking at the lot #’s you forwarded to us, their were no discrepancies found. Actually, our Ballistic Lab Manager said this lot was one of the best shooting lots we’ve ever run. Second, I recall the issues you brought to light during our phone call. My first suggestion is to anneal before each loading and use a tighter neck tension. The amount is up to you. Bullets can and sometimes purposely by design have a slight taper in their shank measurements; they still shoot super tight groups. For the record our Match Burners, by design shoot much more accurately when the taper increases in diameter towards the shank/boattail junction. Next, you mention seating the shank/boattail junction below the neck/shoulder junction. Don’t! You can tune the COAL to still shoot accurately by moving it up above the neck/shoulder junction. We shot well over 100, 10-shot groups with that lot#, some of them by yours truly before leaving the Ballistic Lab and moving up to Consumer Services 3 weeks ago.. I lost count of how many .3”, .4”, and .5”, 10-shot groups we shot. Shot from a 6BR, Peterson brass using Varget and Rem 7-1/2 primers. Enjoy!


Thank You"

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I don't know enough to say if the variations in your measurements are acceptable or if they will make a difference in shooting, or I'd your equipment can accurately make such measurements, ect.....

I would be interested to hear what someone more knowledgeable has to say about that though.

@Molon might know??? Maybe @Dthomas3523

I would think that some variation is acceptable among all of them but how much is too much and how much will show up shooting I don't know. They didn't really address the numbers did they?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I don't know enough to say if the variations in your measurements are acceptable or if they will make a difference in shooting, or I'd your equipment can accurately make such measurements, ect.....

I would be interested to hear what someone more knowledgeable has to say about that though.

@Molon might know??? Maybe @Dthomas3523

I would think that some variation is acceptable among all of them but how much is too much and how much will show up shooting I don't know. They didn't really address the numbers did they?

I’ll read through the thread later this evening.

I will say (and no offense to anyone in the thread having issues) out of all the bullets or bullet lots people have sent to me or I’ve looked at because they weren’t performing well…..I can’t recall the last time it was an actual problem with the bullets. It happens, but it’s normally us doing something or some bad combination of components/equipment.

I don’t think annealing every firing will really matter much as recommended in the manufacturer reply though. And every lot from every manufacturer always seems to magically be one of the best they’ve ever made.

Also, as a general rule of thumb, for stand cup and core bullets…..if Berger makes it, I use it. Same with lapua brass. I understand that’s not always possible. But it definitely alleviates any headaches due to faulty components.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I’ll read through the thread later this evening.

I will say (and no offense to anyone in the thread having issues) out of all the bullets or bullet lots people have sent to me or I’ve looked at because they weren’t performing well…..I can’t recall the last time it was an actual problem with the bullets. It happens, but it’s normally us doing something or some bad combination of components/equipment.

I don’t think annealing every firing will really matter much as recommended in the manufacturer reply though. And every lot from every manufacturer always seems to magically be one of the best they’ve ever made.

Also, as a general rule of thumb, for stand cup and core bullets…..if Berger makes it, I use it. Same with lapua brass. I understand that’s not always possible. But it definitely alleviates any headaches due to faulty components.

Yeah I veered away from Berger and lapua and won't be doing that again if at all possible. Sierra bullets always perform well too but we aren't exactly looking for "well"....

 

[CK1.0]

So, what is the tolerance? IDK. Not without Barnes giving us their design/manufacturing specs.

I bet if we all started putting calipers on all our different types of bullets we'd all have a lot more questions than answers, and all be a little closer to the edge where precision-minded and crazy meet. I don't think any of us have to be an experts in bullet manufacturing to know that we should expect to see a tolerance of some sort, and them not all being perfect shouldn't really surprise us.

So far, as far as I can tell based on what I've experienced: a half a thou (0.0005") difference in OD between the bearing surface and pressure ring doesn't seem to matter much. But I don't know where the line is... is it 0.001"? .0015"? .002"? - it's not anything I ever thought to pay attention to honestly.

IDK, they've performed just like DTAC's for me, hopefully this thread will keep them from going up in price and from going out of stock?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Keep in mind, when going down to sub .001” measurements it’s extremely hard for that number to be confident. Even with tools certified to measure that small.

There’s a laundry list of reasons it may not be accurate outside of a very controlled environment.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

I think @Dthomas3523 is correct. I continue to shoot these extremely consistently. Just today, 2 10 round groups and 4 5 round groups all well below .5 MOA at 400, and all superimposed on each other, all 40 are still in the mid .4's.

Im not shooting them nearly as fast as most of you, and I'm not below the neck shoulder junction.

 

[Mjnelson]

@CK1.0

How often are you cleaning your barrel?

 

[Gtscotty]

Keep in mind, when going down to sub .001” measurements it’s extremely hard for that number to be confident. Even with tools certified to measure that small.

There’s a laundry list of reasons it may not be accurate outside of a very controlled environment.

I understand that measurement instruments have a resolution and some error, but there's not really any question for me that, at least my bullets, have a bulge at the pressure ring. Aside from taking many measurements with a vernier micrometer that show nearly 0.001" difference between the ring and the shank (as well as no such difference for ELDs, and much smaller difference for 105gr MBs), I can grip the 112gr width wise in my calipers, pointed either direction, and the bullets will swing by their pressure ring.

I think there's some question as to how much the bulge matters, and how much might be too much. But it's definitely there.

 

[CK1.0]

@CK1.0

How often are you cleaning your barrel?

I try to clean it every 200 rounds, but I get lazy and stretch that to 300-400 here and there, and even when being lazy I've never run into a dip in performance or any issues with speeds getting wonky. I just try to clean it every 200 because I want to avoid any surprises, and I figure that's a reasonable round count without being overly OCD or pushing it.

 

[CK1.0]

So in the interests of fact-finding (or paranoia, depending on how one looks at it) I decided to crack open one of the boxes of the more recent shipment of 112gr Match Burners I have on hand...

I measured 10 random projectiles from the lot # 7276476-7 and got: Bearing Surface = .2430", at the Pressure Ring = .2435".

Also FWIW/FYI I decided to measure the base-to-ogives of the two different lots I have on hand (just to get an idea about Barnes' consistency) and both lots came in at a BTO of ~.685" (maybe +/- 0.0005" - 0.001").

So for me at least, the dimensional differences between the two different lots I have on hand is pretty small.

However, as mentioned by @Dthomas3523, getting exact measurements by just using calipers seems a bit clumsy here (especially since the variances I'm seeing hover around a half a thou). Taking repeatable measurements actually required a little bit of practice and playing around for a couple minutes and I wouldn't bet on my measurements being perfectly exact, and that goes for both finding the bearing surface vs pressure ring measurements and the base-to-ogive measurements.

 

[parshal]

I measured some 156 Bergers and they have a .0015 difference at the pressure ring. These Bergers shoot lights out.

 

[Kentucreed6]

View attachment 7733002

I tested this same lot number today with no issues.
6 CM, Peterson brass annealed, fl sized and .242 mandrel. Loaded 5 different powder charges of h4350. Velocities ran from 2860-2935 and worst sd was 12. Groups all have potential. I’m sure I can just pick a velocity and load. Didn’t measure jump, just kept bearing surface above neck shoulder junction. Then shot last 7 rounds on plate at 400. 45 degrees today, raining and windy. I didn’t see any issues in the 46 rounds I shot. I intentionally shot all groups .4 above point of aim. With some tuning there shouldn’t be any problems

 

[SLAYIN'SWEDE]

What lot number? Did you contact barnes about the issue? I'm curious how barnes will deal with the situation.

Lot#7276476-8.....I shot a NRL Border War match with them again today and had 4 blow up and 8 that were crazy fliers. There is a problem with this lot, period, even if Barnes doesn't want to admit it!!

 

[Mjnelson]

@SLAYIN'SWEDE
What’s your barrel spec’s?

 

[Vandoogle13]

I think if everyone brings these problems to barnes attention, eventually they will accept the fact that it's a flawed lot of bullets.
Sweaky wheel gets the grease

 

[SLAYIN'SWEDE]

@SLAYIN'SWEDE
What’s your barrel spec’s?

26”, 7 twist, 5R

 

[SD Carpenter]

Yea I had a bad batch for sure, unfortunately it was in the 2-day AZ match in September. Very frustrating day as my squad mates watched my jackets rip apart midflight. It could have been the heat idk it was 112°

 

[Mjnelson]

Yea I had a bad batch for sure, unfortunately it was in the 2-day AZ match in September. Very frustrating day as my squad mates watched my jackets rip apart midflight. It could have been the heat idk it was 112°

That was a hot match. I had a squad mate shooting a 223 and he had to put a damp rag on his barrel to keep his bullets from exploding lol

 

[Vandoogle13]

Here are my findings for my barnes 112gr mb's
I have 4 different lot numbers of these bullets.

Lot # 7276476-9 shank .243 pressure ring .244

Lot# 7276476-8 shank .243 pressure ring .244

I can physically feel the pressure ring with those bullets with my fingers.

Lot # 7276476-11 shank .243 with no pressure ring.

Lot # 7276476-12 shank .243 with no pressure ring.

All measurements taken with starrett calibers usa made and certified.

 

[Kentucreed6]

Here are my findings for my barnes 112gr mb's
I have 4 different lot numbers of these bullets.

Lot # 7276476-9 shank .243 pressure ring .244

Lot# 7276476-8 shank .243 pressure ring .244

I can physically feel the pressure ring with those bullets with my fingers.

Lot # 7276476-11 shank .243 with no pressure ring.

Lot # 7276476-12 shank .243 with no pressure ring.

All measurements taken with starrett calibers usa made and certified.

I call bull shit! Ain’t nobody feeling a 1 thou difference with their fingers. Ain’t no way no how. I’m not even a Barnes fanboy. I just bought some for the first time. They shoot just fine through my creed with 1400 rounds on it.

 

[Vandoogle13]

I call bull shit! Ain’t nobody feeling a 1 thou difference with their fingers. Ain’t no way no how. I’m not even a Barnes fanboy. I just bought some for the first time. They shoot just fine through my creed with 1400 rounds on it.

Run a finger nail over the pressure ring and I can feel it. If you can't thats on you...

 

[r.tenorio671]

Here are my findings for my barnes 112gr mb's
I have 4 different lot numbers of these bullets.

Lot # 7276476-9 shank .243 pressure ring .244

Lot# 7276476-8 shank .243 pressure ring .244

I can physically feel the pressure ring with those bullets with my fingers.

Lot # 7276476-11 shank .243 with no pressure ring.

Lot # 7276476-12 shank .243 with no pressure ring.

All measurements taken with starrett calibers usa made and certified.

....good info, thanks for posting!

 

[dmaenhout]

Thanks for all of the info. I'm late in this thread but just wanted to add my name to the list of problems with lot 7276476-8. Been noticing flyers with a couple keyholing the paper. Running 42.7 StaBALL at 2960. Will try a lower node at 2850 and see if slowing the bullet down helps. 7" twist 6 Creed.

 

[SLAYIN'SWEDE]

Thanks for all of the info. I'm late in this thread but just wanted to add my name to the list of problems with lot 7276476-8. Been noticing flyers with a couple keyholing the paper. Running 42.7 StaBALL at 2960. Will try a lower node at 2850 and see if slowing the bullet down helps. 7" twist 6 Creed.

Doesn't seem to help...I'm running them at 2820

 

[Dstoenner]

Well I am taking the bull by the horns. I have a good old lot and of course I got lot -10 which shows the slight pressure ring at the base of the bearing surface and the boat tail. I had already sorted my new 500 by OAL and the sort results were in the same percentages that the original lot. The Base to Ogive of the original lot was .691 and this new lot is .696 so I don't think there are any real differences. I had some issues with 68gn Bergers that have the pressure ring at the base and caused my runout to go wonky. I figured ii out that if I dipped the case neck in graphite and then seated the bullet, my runout was back down.

So armed with all of the knowns I decided to see what 20 loaded would do for grouping at 100 yards compared to 10 of my original. I purposely didn't graphite my necks. I used my developed load for the old batch. When I measured runout It came up with actually better runout percentages than my ususal percentages. Normally I get about 60% 1's and 20% 2's with the rest 3's My lots are about 92 cases.

The runout results are

New Lot
15 - .001 runout
4 - .002 runout
1 - .003 runout

Pretty typical

Old lot
10 - .001 runout.

I guess in small numbers you don't get normal statistical distribution.

So now I will shoot these for groups. I have a match this weekend so my next range time is Saturday 11. I will publish the results when I get home. I wish I had a longer range because if they do tumble it probably wound be further out.

Just for the record, my gun is a 6x47 Rem 700 in an Eliseo stock with a 30" Criterion MTU profile barrel, 1:7 twist. Current round count is ~1100.

Stay tuned film at 11

David

 

[parshal]

I did a little more load development this past weekend playing with seating depth and charge. I found two velocity nodes where groups were in the .2's. These are all from lot #7276476-7. I ran them out to 600 and had no flyers I'd seen previously.

 

[dmaenhout]

I dropped my MV down about 110 fps to my lower node (as stated earlier in thread) and still had 1 flyer out of 10 at 100 yds. I'm waiting to see what you came up with David. Thanks for the research.

 

[SLAYIN'SWEDE]

Here’s a target from my last range session…5 shot group, one’s just a bit outside!

 

[Kentucreed6]

Here’s a target from my last range session…5 shot group, one’s just a bit outside!

Looks like they’ll shoot. I shot a one day match last weekend with one of the lots from above and they did just fine. My belief is any problems guys are having is self inflicted. Just my opinion tho, not worth much maybe

 

[SLAYIN'SWEDE]

Looks like they’ll shoot. I shot a one day match last weekend with one of the lots from above and they did just fine. My belief is any problems guys are having is self inflicted. Just my opinion tho, not worth much maybe

Do you see the one almost 3” to the right and low that went through the target sideways? I haven’t ever had any issues with D-tac’s, Atip’s, Hybrid’s, Eld-m’s or RDF’s in this barrel so I wouldn’t call it self inflicted.

 

[Kentucreed6]

Do you see the one almost 3” to the right and low that went through the target sideways? I haven’t ever had any issues with D-tac’s, Atip’s, Hybrid’s, Eld-m’s or RDF’s in this barrel so I wouldn’t call it self inflicted.

Just out of curiosity would you send me 20 of that same lot? I’d like to shoot them just to see if the issue replicates in my rifle. I can pm my shipping address

 

[CK1.0]

Do you see the one almost 3” to the right and low that went through the target sideways? I haven’t ever had any issues with D-tac’s, Atip’s, Hybrid’s, Eld-m’s or RDF’s in this barrel so I wouldn’t call it self inflicted.

Seriously, 5 different types of bullets with the same barrel..? Are you buying 100 at a time or something?

I buy 500 of 1 type of bullet, figure out how to get them to shoot, if they aren’t working out, I try something else, repeat. Once I get something that’s working out I buy enough of them to burn out the barrel with.

Messing with a bunch of different types of bullets looking for the magical ones isn’t helping your cause, it actually makes it seem more likely that your issues are self inflicted to be honest.

I don’t understand guys forming any kind of opinion on any component until they’ve tried enough of them to really be sure it’s not them that is the problem.

 

[SLAYIN'SWEDE]

Seriously, 5 different types of bullets with the same barrel..? Are you buying 100 at a time or something?

I buy 500 of 1 type of bullet, figure out how to get them to shoot, if they aren’t working out, I try something else, repeat. Once I get something that’s working out I buy enough of them to burn out the barrel with.

Messing with a bunch of different types of bullets looking for the magical ones isn’t helping your cause, it actually makes it seem more likely that your issues are self inflicted to be honest.

I don’t understand guys forming any kind of opinion on any component until they’ve tried enough of them to really be sure it’s not them that is the problem.

With this barrel I've shot matches with both Dtacs and MB's, I've been testing the others to see if they have issues and they do not! I'm not here to argue, I'm just sharing my experience with the MB's that obviously other people are having issues with...I bought 1000 of this lot# of Match Burners in September and I have less than 200 left, this is my second barrel for the year and it has 1300 rounds on it since Oct.

 

[CK1.0]

With this barrel I've shot matches with both Dtacs and MB's, I've been testing the others to see if they have issues and they do not! I'm not here to argue, I'm just sharing my experience with the MB's that obviously other people are having issues with...I bought 1000 of this lot# of Match Burners in September and I have less than 200 left, this is my second barrel for the year and it has 1300 rounds on it since Oct.

Well, my bad, just sounded like never ending load development with trying every different bullet…

 

[Kentucreed6]

With this barrel I've shot matches with both Dtacs and MB's, I've been testing the others to see if they have issues and they do not! I'm not here to argue, I'm just sharing my experience with the MB's that obviously other people are having issues with...I bought 1000 of this lot# of Match Burners in September and I have less than 200 left, this is my second barrel for the year and it has 1300 rounds on it since Oct.

Send me them last duds. I want to see how they do

 

[Dstoenner]

Well, my bad, just sounded like never ending load development with trying every different bullet…

In this economy you have to keep your options open. I am looking for alternatives that I can have if I can't get more DTACs. If you don't know valid options you don't have a strategy as far as I am concerned. I had bought 300 112's a few years ago and developed a load, It was just as accurate as DTACs and the node was a little higher. I had a chance to take a batch to shoot steel up to 1200 meters. So I took the 112's. The only misses at 1000 meters on were my inability to read the wind. All of the misses were water line with the target. So I got a chance for 500 more. They are in this known bad lot so I am testing again myself. With no DTACs in sight I got to have something to fall back on. I have enough DTACs for next year and then I have to go to something.

If I had known.....

David

 

[SLAYIN'SWEDE]

Send me them last duds. I want to see how they do

LOL, sorry bud...I'll use them for barrel break in

 

[SLAYIN'SWEDE]

In this economy you have to keep your options open. I am looking for alternatives that I can have if I can't get more DTACs. If you don't know valid options you don't have a strategy as far as I am concerned. I had bought 300 112's a few years ago and developed a load, It was just as accurate as DTACs and the node was a little higher. I had a chance to take a batch to shoot steel up to 1200 meters. So I took the 112's. The only misses at 1000 meters on were my inability to read the wind. All of the misses were water line with the target. So I got a chance for 500 more. They are in this known bad lot so I am testing again myself. With no DTACs in sight I got to have something to fall back on. I have enough DTACs for next year and then I have to go to something.

If I had known.....

David

Exactly, that's the only reason I started shooting the Match Burners...I ran out of Dtacs. I shot some A-tips yesterday and that was probably a mistake...this could get really expensive!

 

[Dstoenner]

Exactly, that's the only reason I started shooting the Match Burners...I ran out of Dtacs. I shot some A-tips yesterday and that was probably a mistake...this could get really expensive!

Same with me. I shot a 600 and then a 1000 fclass match. Best scores i have done. The wind came up on the 2nd match of the 1000 and i dropped 10 points but when i looked at everybody scores i saw a HM on the same relay as mine dropped 10 points from the first match i felt vindicated. But atips seem to be in the same camp as DTACs. Phooey

 

[Dstoenner]

Well I finally got out to test the old vs new 112 MB, the new being one of the suspect lots. My gun is a rem 700 in an Eliseo stock. The barrel is a Criterion 30" MTU profile 1:7. I used my developed load of 39.5 H4350 and loaded all at the same time. Powder was to my normal +/- .02 gn. Seated at 2.720. I loaded 23 new ones and 13 old ones. I shot the odd 3 of each on the same target to foul the barrel and there was maybe .25 MOA difference but then the 2 groups but it could have been the fouling difference.

With the new MB's I shot 4 groups from .530 to 1.030. None of the groups looked like they had a random flier, just the loose nut behind the trigger. They won't let us go prone on this range. But it is indoors so no wind to mess with. The old shot one group at .830 but I had bag issues on the first group because i changed the gun position and didn’t get it right so that first group of 1.3 inches I don't think it is fair.

I wish I had access to a longer range but at 100 yards nothing was showing up that I would be worried about. But I will test them at a 600 F-Class match or maybe a full bore where I can shoot 300. 500 and 600 and see what happens.

But right now they have shown the same potential as my original batch so I am not spending any more time testing, just being cautious.

Sorry it took so long to get these tests run. Hard at the end of the year when the rannge is shutdown.

David

 

[Rover31]

resurrecting this thread
I am having the same issues with this lot, Keyholes and crazy high pressure signs.

 

[xocyrusx]

resurrecting this thread
I am having the same issues with this lot, Keyholes and crazy high pressure signs.

Damn I loaded up 120 for a practice day tomorrow… got my mind running now.

 

[Rover31]

@xocyrusx sorry brother... what's the lot number you have
mine is the listed lot... grrr!

 

[CK1.0]

I’ve shot 2500+ of them at this point… no tumbling or anything else wonky to report.

 

[MilSpecOkie]

resurrecting this thread
I am having the same issues with this lot, Keyholes and crazy high pressure signs.

Which lot number?

 

[Rover31]

@MilSpecOkie same one listed by previous posting…
Tried IMR 7977, Staball, tried different neck tension, tried several different charges of each powder,
No joy. I could get a shot on paper and then an impact 5 feet to the right, a shot in the dirt 10yds front of the target then one on paper again. All the while blowing out primers or having them flattened with heavy bolt lift.
Change to 110 A-tips and 1/4-1/2 Moa groups (“when I do my part”)

 

[Kentucreed6]

I’ve shot 1k of the same lot number someone listed above with no issues. It’s been a couple 2 day matches and a few one day matches and haven’t been out of the top 10% yet. I still think most people’s issues are not the bullets themselves

 

[Rover31]

@Kentucreed6
Curious what your thoughts are to the issue?
I have tried seating depth variation, different powders, different charge weights, different brass, different sizing die, mandrel die... every single one has the same result. Flyers keyhole impacts, blown primers...
Switch to a different bullet and in 20 seconds I have a 1/4-1/2 moa group...
something is going on with the bullet

 

[918v]

I would weigh all the bullets. Could be a bad core that would induce a balance problem.