Everything I have read says the USMC issued (and marked) Unertls were 8X. Has anyone heard of 12X Unertls being issued? I looked at one today that is marked the same way the 8s were but trying to understand if it is a fake. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
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12X USMC Unertl?
- Thread starter Milcollector
- Start date
I have wondered why some entrepreneurial chap hasn’t started making 8x ocular heads for the 1.5” scopes? Probably isn’t enough business to make it worth it but damn It would make life easier. Would probably plummet the price of 8x scopes that don’t have providence as well.
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Pictures are needed as the serial number range of USMC 8X Unertl scopes fall within a known range. As others have noted, the ocular eye piece unscrews and different power lens were available in the 1950s-60s, so its possibly an original USMC scope tube but with an non-original/non-correct ocular piece that was possibly installed by a civilian shooter - after the scopes were sold-off in the 1960s/70s. The USMC didn't use 12x oculars on sniper rifles in WWII or Korea. That said, I have read one reference that stated in the Vietnam war both "8x and 10x Unertls" were used on M70 match rifles that were pressed into service as sniper rifles (before the M40s were available), but never read about 12x scopes being used.
The real scopes are easy to spot. The roll stamp of the J. Unertl and USMC Sniper is unmistakable. The USMC Sniper is in the shape of the bowtie. The Marines received 1750 scopes, but the serial range of them is 1000 to the high 2700 range. The serials don't stop at 2750 as I've seen some in the 2770's. But I've never seen a 2800. Probably a few were broken and swapped out by Unertl while production was still going on. Hench the few serials past 2750.
You do see ones converted to 10X or higher magnification. There is nothing in the Marine Sniper docs of them using anything other than 8X. All bought in WWII were 8X. So if you encounter a real scope that is a 10X or whatever, it was changed later.
Like Random Guy I've heard some were converted to 10X and sent to Vietnam, but that is isn't what the shipping documents state. I found them at the archives for the Model 70's and the Unertl scopes that were sent to Vietnam. It states all were 8X. The biggest thing is very few were even sent in the first place. The number is way less than most would imagine.
Personally I think if the Marines did convert some, they were probably for their small bore target rifles. The Marines liked to put the Unertl scopes on their .22 rifle trainers at the end of WWII and later. So even though the 8X Unertl is known for being a sniper scope, a lot did serve on .22 training rifles just because they are a great scope for a .22 trainer and they had them in inventory.
Actually the vast majority of them just sat in long term storage. Not many of these scopes were used in the first place. They were ordered for a sniper program that was basically doomed from the start and they never built the 1903 rifles in number to even put the scopes on them. In fact only 250 rifles were for sure converted. So when you think they had 1750 scopes by wars end but only for sure 250 rifles. Then less than a 100 scopes shipped to Vietnam. Just most were never used.
Here's some pics of mine so you can compare.
You do see ones converted to 10X or higher magnification. There is nothing in the Marine Sniper docs of them using anything other than 8X. All bought in WWII were 8X. So if you encounter a real scope that is a 10X or whatever, it was changed later.
Like Random Guy I've heard some were converted to 10X and sent to Vietnam, but that is isn't what the shipping documents state. I found them at the archives for the Model 70's and the Unertl scopes that were sent to Vietnam. It states all were 8X. The biggest thing is very few were even sent in the first place. The number is way less than most would imagine.
Personally I think if the Marines did convert some, they were probably for their small bore target rifles. The Marines liked to put the Unertl scopes on their .22 rifle trainers at the end of WWII and later. So even though the 8X Unertl is known for being a sniper scope, a lot did serve on .22 training rifles just because they are a great scope for a .22 trainer and they had them in inventory.
Actually the vast majority of them just sat in long term storage. Not many of these scopes were used in the first place. They were ordered for a sniper program that was basically doomed from the start and they never built the 1903 rifles in number to even put the scopes on them. In fact only 250 rifles were for sure converted. So when you think they had 1750 scopes by wars end but only for sure 250 rifles. Then less than a 100 scopes shipped to Vietnam. Just most were never used.
Here's some pics of mine so you can compare.
I'm attaching a couple of pictures. Please let me know what you think. I want to thank everyone for their responses. They have been most helpful. Judging from the serial number, it appears to be in the correct range. Any thoughts as to value (I'm hoping to buy it and don't know what a fair price is). It also has the Micarta case with it
Attachments
Its real just set up for small bore most likely with the 12x and spring.
Deduct some of the value because it will he impossible to find the parts to make it 8x.
The early serial does help some though.
What do they want for it?
Deduct some of the value because it will he impossible to find the parts to make it 8x.
The early serial does help some though.
What do they want for it?
I don't know. They haven't set a price. It's coming out of an estate. What would be a fair price to both of us?
It's hard to say what a fair price is given the 8x ocular eye piece is missing, but an original and complete OD green Micarta case is worth about $750 to $1k depending on its condition, possibly more. Condition is key.
Thank you, that helps. Could you give me any idea on the scope, even a range? What would one with the 8X be worth?
USMC WWII Unertl 8X Sniper Scope - Online Gun Auction
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I’m unsure of the date of this auction. I have seen these listed for $8000, but have no idea if they sold.
IMO, the 12x eyepiece and lack of an 8x with it severely diminishes its value. It’s a neat piece but for me to consider it, with the case, it’d be probably $2000, give or take $200. Threads looked a bit rough.
I may be way off, but it’s not vintage eligible and a good 12x-20x Unertl runs about $700-$1000, so I’m bumping my comfort level up for the carry case and the USMC stamp. I may be way off, but that’s what I would expect this to sell for. Curious what rifle in that estate had the mounts...
If I had an 8x eyepiece laying around in my “junk pile” I’m might go higher...
Guys like me who collect these would really like that earlier serial number. As they are rarer.
What I would do personally is I would buy this one, and then buy another one that is 8X and swap the parts and then sell the other one converted to 12X.
With this early serial converted to 8X again.
Even with the 12X, I think it would sell for $3000-3500. That is just the scope by itself. I rarely see a can sell for less than a thousand. I've seen them sell for as much as $1500 for a nice one.
I think $4000 as a package deal would be fair to both of you. I would personally think anything $3500 or less with the can would be a really good deal in your favor.
I have no real doubt the scope by itself would sell for at least $3500 on ebay and probably would sell for more. The can would probably bring 1200- 1500. But then you loose 13% or whatever with the fees.
For me and my buddies with real rifles, we see that early serial number and it becomes very desirable for us. All evidence is that the early serials were the ones actually sent to the Pacific and many do not exist anymore. The early serial numbers are rare and most serials you see are in the 2000 serial range which always look new.
If that scope was 8X still, I think the scope by itself would sell for $4000 to $4500 just because of the serial.
I try to get all the guys with real rifles on a facebook group I lead. We always post when early scopes hit the market. They would get excited if this hit ebay. I can hear them now. lol
What I would do personally is I would buy this one, and then buy another one that is 8X and swap the parts and then sell the other one converted to 12X.
With this early serial converted to 8X again.Even with the 12X, I think it would sell for $3000-3500. That is just the scope by itself. I rarely see a can sell for less than a thousand. I've seen them sell for as much as $1500 for a nice one.
I think $4000 as a package deal would be fair to both of you. I would personally think anything $3500 or less with the can would be a really good deal in your favor.
I have no real doubt the scope by itself would sell for at least $3500 on ebay and probably would sell for more. The can would probably bring 1200- 1500. But then you loose 13% or whatever with the fees.
For me and my buddies with real rifles, we see that early serial number and it becomes very desirable for us. All evidence is that the early serials were the ones actually sent to the Pacific and many do not exist anymore. The early serial numbers are rare and most serials you see are in the 2000 serial range which always look new.
If that scope was 8X still, I think the scope by itself would sell for $4000 to $4500 just because of the serial.
I try to get all the guys with real rifles on a facebook group I lead. We always post when early scopes hit the market. They would get excited if this hit ebay. I can hear them now. lol
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Ive seen and own them from 8x 10x 12x and 14x. Not uncommon as mentioned to change out the eye piece and VERY easy to do.
The last 3 I saw sell on auction on ebay went from 2800-3100
My 12xx ser range scope I got for 2200 on ebay. It is different than all the others as it looks parkerized. I believe it is 10x eyepiece.
GL!
DT
The last 3 I saw sell on auction on ebay went from 2800-3100
My 12xx ser range scope I got for 2200 on ebay. It is different than all the others as it looks parkerized. I believe it is 10x eyepiece.
GL!
DT
