140 Berger Hybrids jump...How far?

[Senor_Barney]

I have 1,400 Berger 140gr Hybrids sitting on my bench and I am considering dump them on the PX...for everyone else to enjoy

I'm spending too much time schlepping back and forth to the range (and not having fun). Before I give up...

Questions:
How far others are jumping 140 Hybrids? Assuming this Hornady OAL gauge was correct, my CBTO is 2.230. Tested 12 to 34 thous off. Many articles saying "ah, just start at 20 thou and you're good". Is there any empirical data (your loads) that suggest I should be going 40, 50 60, 70 80 (???) thous off?

What is impact on seating depth on velocity/SD/accuracy? My SD are not consistent session to session even with the same charge and same depth. Groups are also inconsistent. I can put 3 in a hole one session then 20 minutes later have a scatter graph. Could this inconsistency be a result of me not jumping the Hybrids far enough?

Would my short jump invalidate my velocity testing? When I did my initial velocity testing (40.8-42.5gr) I sat the bullets at 20 thous (CBTO 2.210). If Berger Hybrids do prefer a bigger jump in my barrel, would I need to re-do my velocity testing?


Here is my setup:

• AI/AX
• 26in WinTac Bartlein
• 140gr Hybrids
• 41.6gr H4350 >>> three ladder tests suggested node btw 41.5-41.7 and I went with 41.6....
• CCI 200 LRP
• Hornady Brass
• Benchsource annealed
• .264 mandrel expander
• .289 Neck bushing

Here are my results form yesterday's 100 yard session:
Observations:
1) Nothing clearly stands out as consistently accurate
2) I have #5 and #6 where a group with one that is completely off and random >>> SD is aweful on both
3) Vertical stringing in #1 12 thous and #3 20 thous

 

[nn8734]

All hybrid Bergers like jump, I start at .040. Ignore SD/ES unless you are taking mv data on at least 30 rounds using the same recipe

Inconsistent groups using same ammo are usually shooter-driven

ETA: 215Bs out of my AXMC 300Norma’s barrel were jumping .085” and shooting .3-.4MOA or so consistently at 100m. 130 bergers were jumping .090” in my 6.5 creedmoor barrel (also AXMC) with same results.

 

[charnicus]

I would try again at 50, 60, 70, and 80 thou jump and see what happens.

 

[accurate obsession]

I love the 140 hybrids because they're not supposed to be especially picky about jump distance. My final product sounds very similar to yours.
.260 Rem, 41.8g H4350, .262 neck ID, .01 jump. My jump is probably more, I haven't checked lands in a while and there are a lot of rounds on this barrel.
26" Bartlein, will still give .7 moa @ 100yds and has 2300 rounds down range.
The erratic grouping is frustrating especially with the cost of components right now but IMHO the 140 hybrids are not the root of your problem.

 

[Steel head]

I’ve had great results jumping 140 hybrids 1/8 of an inch in the past.
Excellent bullets.

 

[Shoots 700's]

great bullets, they are very accurate in my 6.5x47 Have you tried another powder? Just asking, but H4350 usually works very well.

 

[6MT]

I use .010" as my jump with the 140gr Hybrids. Works well for my big Kreiger. In my rifle, they won't mag feed. But I don't mind single feeding them.

 

[Shoots 700's]

or tighten up the neck

 

[Simonsza1]

Most my Berger loads jumping .060 or more

 

[spife7980]

Just test and see what your rifle likes them at. Thats the best (read: only) way to find out.

 

[Senor_Barney]

I have no problem raising my hand that it could very well be 70% me and the other 30% a combo of bullet jump + position of Jupiter and Mars

Like suggested, I'll continue to practice on my fundamentals, but my plan for the reload is to do 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 and just see what (if anything) changes then report back. That seems like the most cost-effective way to proceed. This other range session (shot prone) doesn't look any more or less conclusive and only confirms that i could be the issue.

Silver lining is that if I give up....some of you will benefit when this all goes on the PX

 

[nn8734]

Do some dry firing prior to going hot if you dont do that already. Watch your reticle as you break the shot and see if its drifting slightly off target. If so, find the direct cause(s) of that drift.

I diagnosed a “wandering zero” issue that way a few years back. Also do a dot drill, gets you more target-focused and helps keep a consistent POA vs trying to simply shoot the tightest group.

One way to rule you in or out as the main issue.

 

[jinxx4ever]

save your powder, send them to me

 

[Simonsza1]

Besides maybe one or two groups that could just be you, are those groups on the photo above so terrible? Your 2.198 looks like something to work with imo. Try tweaking around with that one.

 

[accurate obsession]

I use .010" as my jump with the 140gr Hybrids. Works well for my big Kreiger. In my rifle, they won't mag feed. But I don't mind single feeding them.

Obviously our OAL's will be different, but I had the same issue. Accurate Mags work and my AI mags work now with the binder plates removed.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

My 140 Hybrids are doing very well at 0.053" off the lands. These will feed from MDT 12-round mags with binder plate - barely. If I go 0.045" those sharp tips are drag against the binder plate - and the radius where the bullet's boattail starts is up into the case neck a little bit.

I ran 0.085" off the lands for quite awhile. I mistakenly loaded a batch at 0.053" off and found they were marginally better. All run half-MOA or better for 5-or-more-round 100-yard groups.

Wrt vertical stringing: I started seeing this when I put spikes on my Atlas bipod. I do load testing from heavy, anchored wooded benches and the spikes, of course, dig in and hold tight. I'm sure my technique is the root cause of the stringing, but it stopped when I put the rubber feet back on so good 'nuff.

 

[Senor_Barney]

Besides maybe one or two groups that could just be you, are those groups on the photo above so terrible? Your 2.198 looks like something to work with imo. Try tweaking around with that one.

You are right.

At a high level, the 2.196-2.198 seating depth look like something that would be a promising place to start, but it's really hard to know how much is total "fluke" vs. something consistent -- especially when I look at the second pic above vs. the first one.


I have 2-3 that group then consistently one whacky one that is totally random. My 200 yard group was the same....2 shots .5 MOA than one that opens up 1.5 moa.

 

[Simonsza1]

You are right.

At a high level, the 2.196-2.198 seating depth look like something that would be a promising place to start, but it's really hard to know how much is total "fluke" vs. something consistent -- especially when I look at the second pic above vs. the first one.


I have 2-3 that group then consistently one whacky one that is totally random. My 200 yard group was the same....2 shots .5 MOA than one that opens up 1.5 moa.

Probably just you, not your rifle/load seems like you have plenty to be happy with unless your going for bench rest accuracy. I surely wouldn’t be selling those bullets just working out the nitty gritty.

 

[Baron23]

Well

I have 1,400 Berger 140gr Hybrids sitting on my bench and I am considering dump them on the PX...for everyone else to enjoy

I'm spending too much time schlepping back and forth to the range (and not having fun). Before I give up...

Questions:
How far others are jumping 140 Hybrids? Assuming this Hornady OAL gauge was correct, my CBTO is 2.230. Tested 12 to 34 thous off. Many articles saying "ah, just start at 20 thou and you're good". Is there any empirical data (your loads) that suggest I should be going 40, 50 60, 70 80 (???) thous off?

What is impact on seating depth on velocity/SD/accuracy? My SD are not consistent session to session even with the same charge and same depth. Groups are also inconsistent. I can put 3 in a hole one session then 20 minutes later have a scatter graph. Could this inconsistency be a result of me not jumping the Hybrids far enough?

Would my short jump invalidate my velocity testing? When I did my initial velocity testing (40.8-42.5gr) I sat the bullets at 20 thous (CBTO 2.210). If Berger Hybrids do prefer a bigger jump in my barrel, would I need to re-do my velocity testing?


Here is my setup:

• AI/AX
• 26in WinTac Bartlein
• 140gr Hybrids
• 41.6gr H4350 >>> three ladder tests suggested node btw 41.5-41.7 and I went with 41.6....
• CCI 200 LRP
• Hornady Brass
• Benchsource annealed
• .264 mandrel expander
• .289 Neck bushing

Here are my results form yesterday's 100 yard session:
Observations:
1) Nothing clearly stands out as consistently accurate
2) I have #5 and #6 where a group with one that is completely off and random >>> SD is aweful on both
3) Vertical stringing in #1 12 thous and #3 20 thous

View attachment 7756450View attachment 7756452

Well Senor, my 6.5 barrel has 2k rounds on it and I’m seating .010 off of the MDT mag binder plate for right about .080-.090 of jump.

I have zero idea if this will help you at all.

But if you decide to sell them, keep me in mind and I’ll look for your WTS ad in the PX ;-)

 

[Shoots 700's]

Reading this I would say its more of the shooter vs the bullet.

 

[whatsupdoc]

I have no problem raising my hand that it could very well be 70% me and the other 30% a combo of bullet jump + position of Jupiter and Mars

Like suggested, I'll continue to practice on my fundamentals, but my plan for the reload is to do 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 and just see what (if anything) changes then report back. That seems like the most cost-effective way to proceed. This other range session (shot prone) doesn't look any more or less conclusive and only confirms that i could be the issue.

Silver lining is that if I give up....some of you will benefit when this all goes on the PX

View attachment 7756542

Its not the jump.

 

[Shoots 700's]

How many loads on the brass? Maybe try some Lapua Brass and practice on the fundamentals

 

[ICU22250]

My thoughts are maybe try a different primer, maybe a BR2 or GMM. Also better brass could also help. But if you wanna sell them hybrids, ILL TAKE EM!

 

[6MT]

Obviously our OAL's will be different, but I had the same issue. Accurate Mags work and my AI mags work now with the binder plates removed.

My CBTO with the 140’s, in 6.5CM, is 2.239” with that .010” jump. I really don’t measure COAL. All I know about COAL, is that it’s too long for mag feeding ;-)

 

[acudaowner]

long or short I get the same hits or misses either way you decide to go best of luck .

 

[rydah]

Mine shoot great at 50 thou.
I’ve found hybrids always shoot great between 40-70 thou.

 

[Senor_Barney]

Appreciate all the input here.

Went back to the range today with 4-Rounds of H4350 loaded at 41.6gr.

Seating at 40, 50 60, 70, and 80 off

Far superior results at longer jumps (with my setup). While 4-Rounds does not make for statistically significant results...I did return single-digit SDs and <0.5 MOA on 70 and 80 off which now gives me a direction to go from here. The "shoot and see" targets also make for "optically" superior looking results vs shooting straight paper targets...so not sure how much had improved.

I may also load up another group at 40 off because I got 3 in 1 hole and a random flyer. Maybe that was me...maybe not. But its interesting to see that at 40 off in this session and 30 off in past sessions both seem to have a one-hole group and one flyer.

The vertical stringing at 50 and 60 off is a toss...

 

[Rockdoc173]

I've always started 0.01" off the lands except for once and that load ended up at 0.005" off. I've found the Hybrids to be very forgiving in jump, unlike the VLD predecessors

 

[Simonsza1]

MDS Episode #0014: Scott Satterlee and Hand Loading | Modern Day Sniper Podcast

You asked about hand loading, so we listened! We have a special guest on the podcast who needs no introduction in the precision shooting world, Mr. Scott Satterlee. Scott is a renowned handloading “tinkerer”, and we wanted to go straight to the source for the latest information regarding...

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