145 grain 6.5 Barnes Match Burner

[NamibHunter]

I had 156 bergers to 2830fps before bolt lift in lapua brass, 24" slow factory tikka barrel with RL26. It's very common for guys to get 140 class bullets close to 3k fps with it and 26" barrels when pushed hard. Hornady brass has the most capacity, and takes up to 49gr pretty easy. Lapua typically will max out around 47gr powder. Alpha holds a lil more than lapua in my limited testing.

Will give it a try.

Folks seem to be reporting that RL-16 gives better short range accuracy, but slower speed, while RL-26 gives best speed and slightly worse 100 yard group size, even so, it might still be best for shooting steel at distance, where wind drift matters far more than 100 yard group size.

Have you tried both?

What primers worked best with RL-26?

 

[Mooseknuckles]

Had some success today with the 145 match burners in my 6.5 creedmoor. Looks like 42.7 grains will be a good place to start messing with seating depth.
load data
Prime once fired brass
145 matchburner seated at 2.950
42.7 grain of h4350
Cci200 primer
Velocity was 2730 with a sd of 4 and Es of 10.
This was shot of out my Seekins havak bravo at 100 yards.

 

[NamibHunter]

I cant find it listed, can anyone confirm the bc on these are still .700+?
How did they get that sort of bc with a 1.341 in bullet where the 153 is 1.500 tall.

Also interested in what G7 BC you guys get from truing based on drop data at 400 yards plus. I did a quick check some time ago at 600, but my zero was off, need to redo it. I must have bumped the scope.

 

[NamibHunter]

Got a semi finished 145 MB load that shot well enough. Posted some pics in the 6.5 Creedmoor thread. Group size varied mostly from 0.4” to 0.75”, but most were around 0.5”. Good enough.

Many four and five shot groups would have 3 or 4 touching and another one or two would impact 0.5” away. Had some bipod issues, so might not be the load. Might still be able to improve the load with additional tweaking.

I know from experience that this rifle will shoot 135 Atips and 140/144 Berger Hybrids into 0.2-0.35” groups, but cannot find these bullets anywhere - except on Gunbroker, where they go up for auction, and often fetch around 85 cents per bullet.

Groups ordered from ‘good’ to not-so-great:

 

[NamibHunter]

I loaded some test rounds, 46gr rl26 in lapua brass, br2 primers, seated 8k, 28k,48k, 68k, 88k, and 108k off lands. Speeds close lands was 2910, way off lands 2880, accuracy was near half moa @ 200y from 8k to 68k off lands, the 88 and 108k were moa. I have since loaded 57.7-60.3gr in 0.1gr steps at 28k off lands as it was the tightest group just under half moa and was in the middle of vertical impact nodes. This is in a 26" barrel Christensen MPR. I have to get my feed ramp cut for the longer rounds(2.93 coal). It was designed for using a short pmag.

Sounds like you are getting close to a final load. I got pretty good results with a 0.020” jump, and group size was quite similar to yours, 0.4 to 0.6”.

Are you loading for a 6.5 PRC? Presume the reference to 46 gn was a typo.

 

[NamibHunter]

Also interested in what G7 BC you guys get from truing based on drop data at 400 yards plus. I did a quick check some time ago at 600, but my zero was off, need to redo it. I must have bumped the scope.

OK, after posting this question, decided to rush and load up 20 rounds, and drive over to the range, which is only 15 minutes away. Had the zero rechecked on Friday, it shot 0.7” below my zero stop. At 600 yards (might be off by 5 yards), i needed between 11.0 and 11.25 MOA of elevation, after correcting for the 3 clicks of zero offset. Have not done a tall target test for this scope yet, so that might contribute another 2% error. Moderate mirage is another possible source of error. Berm behind the target is at least 60 feet tall, and with the 6-14 mph wind blowing almost straight towards the berm, it will lift the bullet an inch or so.

So with all those disclaimers in place: Strelok Pro gave this result for the G7 BC:

True G7 BC result may be somewhere between 0.30 and 0.33. Not claiming my estimate is perfect, but at least some indication.

 

[NamibHunter]

No this is a 65cm, rl26 is a slow burning but high energy magnum powder that's works amazing in a lot of smaller cases when utilizing heavy for cal bullets.

Yep, RL-26 does well in a Creedmoor with the heavies. Scored another can recently.

Not meaning to nitpick, but this looks off for a 6.5 Creedmoor:

“have since loaded 57.7-60.3gr in 0.1gr steps at 28k off lands as it was the tightest group”.

 

[Perchowski]

Wrong section

 

[Yondering]

Working up a load using the 140gr. Barnes burners and H4350, norma brass & cci 200 primers. Shooting these out of an AR10 I built, its a JP LRP-07 clone basically. Only difference is I'm using their VMOS BCG, different upper/lower and trigger. Alot of the time I shoot it suppressed (I am not though in this testing) which is why I went with the VMOS BCG instead, 22in barrel, 1-8in. twist.
Getting 2700fps with 42gr., seated to ~2.18 BTO. Only got a 4 round group instead of 5, there was a ceasefire so I didn't get off the last shot.
Edit: C.O.A.L. is ~2.81.

140gr or 145gr? They make both but this thread is about the 145. Mixing the data could start confusing things.

 

[Perchowski]

My bad, deleted my post.

 

[Yondering]

My bad, deleted my post.

No worries, just didn’t want to mix data. I haven’t tried the 140gr but they look good.
Seems like we should have a topic on those too; if we don’t maybe you should start one?

 

[NamibHunter]

Yep scam! Only accept bitcoin and gift cards.

 

[Perchowski]

No worries, just didn’t want to mix data. I haven’t tried the 140gr but they look good.
Seems like we should have a topic on those too; if we don’t maybe you should start one?

Going to do a final test this weekend so yeah ill post my results.

 

[TheChief]

Going to do a final test this weekend so yeah ill post my results.

Let's hear those results!

 

[atepointer]

I tried them over staball at mag length around the 44 gr region and they're much better, at least if you consider 2.5+ MOA -> 0.8-1.0 MOA much better. I tried seating them a little deeper and it was trending the right way so I may push it a few more hundredths past the book COL in before trying them at single-load lengths.

Did you get on these 145s any more or punt?

 

[SuperBruce]

Did you get on these 145s any more or punt?

I didn't get them to acceptable at mag length. I did get slightly better results (~0.8ish? MOA) when I started loading past mag length just to see but ultimately lost interest. A friend has a magic $300 savage rifle that will put them all in one hole all day long so I sold the rest to him.

 

[atepointer]

I didn't get them to acceptable at mag length. I did get slightly better results (~0.8ish? MOA) when I started loading past mag length just to see but ultimately lost interest. A friend has a magic $300 savage rifle that will put them all in one hole all day long so I sold the rest to him.

Ok wow. Buddy has new Bartlein he's going to run them in after we both pulled the plug on 24" 1:8 maybe he can find some unicorn magic. too.

 

[NamibHunter]

Update on the 145 MB bullets:

Recently fire formed a new batch of brass, and the surplus powder i used carbon fouled the barrel like crazy. SDs went from 8 to 13, with an ES of over 50 fps. Terrible!

So did a deep clean of my MPA barrel, took the brake off and cleaned it (at least there was no ugly carbon ring), and then tried again.

I am shooting HBN coated (weight sorted) 145 Barnes Matchburners, to get some extra speed, and reduce copper fouling. It usually takes 10-20 rounds to ‘coat’ the inside of the barrel after a thorough clean, and to get the speed to stabilize again. [According to the famous Mr. Tubb, the first time you use HBN, it takes up to 50 rounds. My experience was that at least 35 shots were needed.]

First two 5 shot groups were 50-60 fps slower than they should be, group size was over 2” in each case, ES of 40 plus. The third group picked up 30 fps and got to about 1”, then got two successive groups at the correct speed with all the holes touching (0.41” and 0.35”). SD back at 7.6, ES of 25. Done! And out of ammo.

So it took 15 shots to season the barrel with HBN and get back to 2895 fps (using RL-17). [Btw: RL-17 is not the best powder, really it is way too temp sensitive, but that is what i have right now. Mid-summer load will probably have to be 0.5 to 0.6 gn lower.]

I think this bullet is workable. Weight range (1.2 gn), and base-to-ogive consistency can be better, so not a 144 Berger Hybrid, but still quite capable. And far more available than Berger or Hornady ELDM.

 

[Ncwg2boatguy]

I just picked up 1000 projectiles from Midway. Now to find powders that work other than 4350

RL16

 

[TheChief]

RL16

I'd consider StaBall 6.5 as well. It seems to be fairly available compared to 4350 or RL16. I need more RL16, but I've still got ten pounds of H4350 so I'm pretty happy with that for now.

 

[Ncwg2boatguy]

I'd consider StaBall 6.5 as well. It seems to be fairly available compared to 4350 or RL16. I need more RL16, but I've still got ten pounds of H4350 so I'm pretty happy with that for now.

Agree. H4350 is super consistent. When drought hit I used RL16 for 6.5 and 140hybrids for PRS. I got 25-30 fps more but not quite as low S.D and E.S. But they didn't suck by any means. I still have 16 lbs of it and like it. I also run shooters world Precision for Varget alternative for 6.5 Lapua. It's spot on. Just had to go up.3gr to match market speed. 37.6gr with S.D of 4.6 and E.S of 9

 

[TheChief]

Agree. H4350 is super consistent. When drought hit I used RL16 for 6.5 and 140hybrids for PRS. I got 25-30 fps more but not quite as low S.D and E.S. But they didn't suck by any means. I still have 16 lbs of it and like it. I also run shooters world Precision for Varget alternative for 6.5 Lapua. It's spot on. Just had to go up.3gr to match market speed. 37.6gr with S.D of 4.6 and E.S of 9

I just use RL16 for loading 155 Absolute Hammers in my 280AI. It's almost magical for that load. I'd like some for doing 123 Absolute Hammers in my 6.5. I've still got 3 pounds of it left so I'll just have to ration it til i can find some more.

 

[NamibHunter]

Agree, RL-16 has been very accurate for me, got the best groups ever with RL-16 and 135 Atips (close to 0.1” at 100 yards). Hard to find though.

A buddy of mine has tried PowerPro 4000 MR, which is a fairly new magnum Shortcut powder. Often referred to as a “ball powder”, but under a microscope it is clearly a super shortcut extruded powder. It does meter like a ball powder. He got one hole groups in a Bergara. Easier powder to find, but apparently somewhat (moderately) temp sensitive.

I have not tried it yet. Anybody on here who has tried it in any of the 6.5’s?

 

[Hypnotk]

Has anyone used this bullet with a 1:7 twist? When I put the bullet data in a stability calculator it only gets a 1.4(marginally stable below 1.5) in a 1:8 twist. With a 1:7 it shows around 1.8 to 1.9.

 

[Chickentoast]

Might be OK if you stay under 3100 fps. I'm in a 7.5 twist and have run up to 3300 without having them come apart. Some poofed at 3350.

 

[AXEFORCE6]

Might be OK if you stay under 3100 fps. I'm in a 7.5 twist and have run up to 3300 without having them come apart. Some poofed at 3350.

What barrel maker?

 

[Chickentoast]

What barrel maker?

Bartlein 28" max charge n570. I spoke with Barnes before buying these pills and they told me the speed limit - I think they said 315K

 

[NamibHunter]

Has anyone used this bullet with a 1:7 twist? When I put the bullet data in a stability calculator it only gets a 1.4(marginally stable below 1.5) in a 1:8 twist. With a 1:7 it shows around 1.8 to 1.9.

They worked fairly well in my 8 twist factory barrel at 2,900 fps (longer barrel, very long freebore and loaded way long, also a double base powder and HBN coated).

Most 6.5 CM rifles and loads will get closer to 2,700 fps, or even a bit less.

An SG of 1.5 would have been ideal, but 1.4 is adequate, it just means you will lose a little bit of BC and your drops at distance will be an inch or two more.

Probably not worth buying a new barrel just for that. But my next 6.5 CM barrel will be a 7.5 twist.

 

[Gohring65]

I run the 2770 fps with 4831sc 45 grains 24” barrel 6.5 creed hex coated, it’s a crunch to seat them, but it runs so cool, very little throat erosion to chase.
Single digits
Es and sd.
Averages about a half inch with several well under 1/2”.
I made the switch over to them completely. I’m trying to get away from polymer tip bullets after dumping a ammo box and half the tops broke off.

 

[308Gunner]

Has anyone used this bullet with a 1:7 twist? When I put the bullet data in a stability calculator it only gets a 1.4(marginally stable below 1.5) in a 1:8 twist. With a 1:7 it shows around 1.8 to 1.9.

I loaded some of these in a 1-9 to 1-7 gain twist and they worked great. My normal load is a 130 RDF in my SLR. Gave the rest to a buddy and he loaded them up for a 47 with an 8 twist barrel, he didn’t have any problems. DA in the summer is around 4500’ here in West Texas

 

[atepointer]

@Mike Casselton

 

[Carlos Danger]

I have 1000 coming in a couple days. Hoping to see some nice results with these.

 

[NamibHunter]

After shooting out two boxes in an 9 twist barrel, my conclusion is that a twist rate of 8.0 is adequate.

But i was pushing them beyond 2800 fps in a long barrel. At 2600 or 2500 fps in a short 20” barrel, that statement might not apply…

Given the “arms race” we see between the bullet makers, with 6.5 mm bullet weight going up every year, i think it is prudent to spec a 7.5 or even a 7.0 twist, once your current barrel gets close to end of life.

Case in point: The 150 Sierra SMK did not stabilize in my 8 twist Savage factory barrel. It worked fine in my 7 twist Shilen replacement barrel. Nice BC, and a superb factory pointed bullet. But of no use to the majority of 6.5 Creed owners… because they all have 8 twist barrels…

 

[Yondering]

That seems pretty reasonable.
I push them at 2720 from a stock RAP barrel with RL16 and that load is a hammer at long distance. But I can see a good argument to go with a 7.0 or 7.5 twist as bullets like this continue to get longer and heavier.

My 14yo son went 3 for 3 on a chest-size rock at 1010 yards a few weeks ago with that load. No big deal for a lot of the shooters here, but but proud papa feels for my boy to do it. But anyway, it’s such a consistent load at that distance that it almost feels like cheating.

 

[Gohring65]

That seems pretty reasonable.
I push them at 2720 from a stock RAP barrel with RL16 and that load is a hammer at long distance. But I can see a good argument to go with a 7.0 or 7.5 twist as bullets like this continue to get longer and heavier.

My 14yo son went 3 for 3 on a chest-size rock at 1010 yards a few weeks ago with that load. No big deal for a lot of the shooters here, but but proud papa feels for my boy to do it. But anyway, it’s such a consistent load at that distance that it almost feels like cheating.

What bc did you enter. I’m running a criterion 1-8 at 2730 and .64 is what trued to get on steel at 1k.

 

[Yondering]

What bc did you enter. I’m running a criterion 1-8 at 2730 and .64 is what trued to get on steel at 1k.

.64 seems like quite a difference, unless you’re talking about the 140? I’m using .703 for this 145 and it seems to be perfect.

 

[Gohring65]

.64 seems like quite a difference, unless you’re talking about the 140? I’m using .703 for this 145 and it seems to be perfect.

No it’s the 145. It just come out that way. Every rifle is different. I tried the advertised and was off quite a bit. I’m at 800ft ASL. They shoot great. I’m not complaining at all. This is some of the first run of the bullets Barnes released. I was one of the first to get some when they came out. Things could’ve got more refined later on.

I think the 1-8 is right on the ragged edge of stability and that also affects bc. I think I got 1.48 sg factor at 59 degrees

 

[Carlos Danger]

Best group of my ladder loads, and all were pretty decent. Going to try up and down a couple tenths and adjust seating depths.

 

[Yondering]

No it’s the 145. It just come out that way. Every rifle is different. I tried the advertised and was off quite a bit. I’m at 800ft ASL. They shoot great. I’m not complaining at all. This is some of the first run of the bullets Barnes released. I was one of the first to get some when they came out. Things could’ve got more refined later on. View attachment 7867252I think the 1-8 is right on the ragged edge of stability and that also affects bc. I think I got 1.48 sg factor at 59 degrees

It could be that your 1:8 twist is just a little slow, to compromise b.c. a bit I guess? Mine is 1:8 as well, but that .703 value has proven accurate from -1,500 DA to ~7,500 DA. (I’m near sea level at home, with that low DA value in the winter, but also shoot up in the mountains of eastern Oregon.)

 

[Gohring65]

It could be that your 1:8 twist is just a little slow, to compromise b.c. a bit I guess? Mine is 1:8 as well, but that .703 value has proven accurate from -1,500 DA to ~7,500 DA. (I’m near sea level at home, with that low DA value in the winter, but also shoot up in the mountains of eastern Oregon.)

Just running thru the Berger stability calculator I got a sg of 1.44 at sea level giving a g1 of .690. I hex boron nitride coat my bullets in a tumbler and it tends to flatten the tips some, but I’d kinda leave them all the same which gives a more consistent bc, lower but more consistent. The combination of those factors leads to my trued bc input.
Berger recommends at least a 1-7.5” twist for optimal bc.

 

[Killer Deal]

It could be that your 1:8 twist is just a little slow, to compromise b.c. a bit I guess? Mine is 1:8 as well, but that .703 value has proven accurate from -1,500 DA to ~7,500 DA. (I’m near sea level at home, with that low DA value in the winter, but also shoot up in the mountains of eastern Oregon.)

How far have you shot with it?

Unless you're hot roding like a mug, I dont think it's possible to get a .7 g1 bc with the 145mb. My impression is you haven't shot far enough for the BC to really show what it's really doing.

I'm convinced they manipulated something to get that number or they lied.

Just based on the simple the sectional density and most optimized form factor calculations; The highest bc you can get is around .645g1 or .330g7. Which is reflected in my data and in the data in A LOT of people through this thread.

 

[Yondering]

How far have you shot with it?

Unless you're hot roding like a mug, I dont think it's possible to get a .7 g1 bc with the 145mb. My impression is you haven't shot far enough for the BC to really show what it's really doing.

I'm convinced they manipulated something to get that number or they lied.

Just based on the simple the sectional density and most optimized form factor calculations; The highest bc you can get is around .645g1 or .330g7. Which is reflected in my data and in the data in A LOT of people through this thread.

I disagree. .703 has been working for me out to 1300 yards, and trued at closer ranges as well of course. Feel free to stick to your own data. This is what works in my rifle.

 

[Killer Deal]

I disagree. .703 has been working for me out to 1300 yards, and trued at closer ranges as well of course. Feel free to stick to your own data. This is what works in my rifle.

Rock on, man. Just being skeptical.

What are you shooting by the way and how fast? Just curious

 

[Yondering]

Rock on, man. Just being skeptical.

What are you shooting by the way and how fast? Just curious

You could read my posts above for that info…

 

[Killer Deal]

You could read my posts above for that info…

Thanks

 

[Gohring65]

Target size will make a difference.
Chest size impacts .703 might work.
8” plate, you better have your inputs spot on.

 

[Killer Deal]

Target size will make a difference.
Chest size impacts .703 might work.
8” plate, you better have your inputs spot on.

I'm with you there. I have remind myself that we all have different styles off shooting and precision standards. The goal is to have as much fun as possible. The reality is at 1,000 yards The difference between a BC of .703 and and .645 is only 3 tenths at 75°f and a DA of 1,500. So on a full size ipsc it's almost neglible in terms of elevation. Consistency and repeatability might differ but that's good enough. I compete so my main focus is training to a 1 moa standard so hence why I'm being a little more particular because the standard I'm looking for is different and that's fine.

What's more important is that @Yondering is getting out there and having a blast with his Son like I hope to as my Two nuggets get older. Keep getting after it and thank you for sharing your experience with us.