1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

#51
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

NP Noel, and you are right, most people have no business shooting 1/4 that distance. I have a lot of guys contact me about long range hunting. Some even go so far as to have me build them rifles. Most come to my range and practice a few times and learn a little. But most realize what kind of work is involved to do it and just lose interest. When I hear people talk about long range hunting being lazy man's hunting I just grin. Normal hunting took way less time, dedication and money. Even if you have good equipment it is a weird skill set that is hard become proficient at. If I do this ten more years I will still be learning, testing, spending insane sums of money, but having a ball.
 
#52
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

I think it boils down to a high percentage shot. How many archers have seen game jump the string and a good shot become a bad one?

My personnal opinion is: 1,500yds is a hail mary for most and a high percentage shot for some. If i knew i could do it i could care less if someone else said i shouldn't!

Interesting debate though
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#53
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

+1 Mulehunter.
No two ELR shots are quite the same. When shooting rocks or steel the name of the game is education and skill set practice.
On shots at game, the shooter must make a decision on the shot based on his confidence level at the time.
When the wind is blowing I use the video camera. But when the wind drops to dead calm in my favorite areas, then the game had better watch out.
 
#54
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

Eddybo,
Are you saying your rifle is a 1/4moa shooter out to 1500yds from bullseye or groups? It is hard to believe a hunting rifle is capable of 1/4moa out at 1500yds from center, but what do I know?
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#55
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

I would not take that kind of shot on big game. I would take that shot on a coyote or a big cat. If I hit either at that distance I would try to hit again. If not oh well. The big cat I would take compass readings mark my map and start the process of locating it to put it down. If I already had one sitting on my desk then I would not take the shot on the big cat. A coyote heck yes.

I have tried hitting F7 on this site and spell check did not come up. I have not seen a check spelling button. Does one exist?
 
#56
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rpk762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would not take that kind of shot on big game. I would take that shot on a coyote or a big cat. If I hit either at that distance I would try to hit again. If not oh well. The big cat I would take compass readings mark my map and start the process of locating it to put it down. If I already had one sitting on my desk then I would not take the shot on the big cat. A coyote heck yes.

I have tried hitting F7 on this site and spell check did not come up. I have not seen a check spelling button. Does one exist?
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I don't understand how the people say it's not ok to shoot a deer at that range but varmints are a go? So it's ok if you shoot the jaw off a coyote and let them starve but not a deer. I'm really trying to understand the difference here. For what it's worth, as I said in the other thread, it was one hell of a shot and I would have done the same if I was capable of shooting that distance.
 
#58
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bradu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't understand how the people say it's not ok to shoot a deer at that range but varmints are a go? So it's ok if you shoot the jaw off a coyote and let them starve but not a deer. I'm really trying to understand the difference here. For what it's worth, as I said in the other thread, it was one hell of a shot and I would have done the same if I was capable of shooting that distance.</div></div>

Coyotes are worth less than deer. If I would shoot off a leg or jaw of a coyote I would try to kill it but not anywhere near as hard for a deer. I will not lose my privileges to shoot and hunt on the land I do by not taking a shot. I asked if the coyotes were paying for the animals they were killing would it be ok? The ranchers all laugh and say yes but it is a pain to get cash from the game and fish. I always see coyotes when I go out. I shoot at them all year. Most up here stop in the spring so the females will raise a nice bunch of pups for next winter. Not me I will shoot a pup just as fast as I will shoot a bitch or a old mail coyote. I have even shot a bitch that was out with her pups. I let them make noise to bring in the rest of them. It worked. I shot 14 or 15 dogs if you count pups that day.

To re-answer your question. Yes I will take a less than optimal shot at a coyote. On coyotes I just go for combat hits. Any hits are good hits. All other game animals I will pass up questionable shots. If it is a shot I think I will make I shoot. Does that make me a bad hunter? Maybe but I have saved lots of livestock so I will call it ok.
 
#59
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

Coyotes are pests in the Carolinas. Not native. The wildlife commission actually wants you to shoot as many of them as possible, as do most livestock farmers. If the coyote population continues to grow, it could drastically impact the whitetail deer population in NC/SC in the future, as they love to prey on fawns.
 
#60
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mram10</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Eddybo,
Are you saying your rifle is a 1/4moa shooter out to 1500yds from bullseye or groups? It is hard to believe a hunting rifle is capable of 1/4moa out at 1500yds from center, but what do I know?
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Maybe you should read the thread, and maybe the 1500 yard deer thread also. I have never claimed to shoot a 1500 1/4MOA yard group. I have once or twice shot a 3 shot group that small at 1400 but when you do that it is just because the bullets decided to land close together. If you could take wind and mirage totally out of the equation, maybe, who knows. We don't get to shoot in a vacuum often. I would say that my rifle is a 1/4 MOA rifle, which is all that I have said. There is a longstanding argument as to what constitutes a 1/4 MOA rifle. I say mine meets the definition, others may say it does not. I did once shoot a 3 shot group in the low .1s with this rifle, but of course one group does not make it a .1 MOA rifle.
 
#61
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

I agree with Cory and Mike(Tactical) This is unrealistic. I shoot alot between 800 and 1300yds with my 6.5s and 284 and even though I have had some .5 MOA groups or smaller most of the time they are just average and closer to MOA.

Hell, there are sometimes I don't even touch the damn target!!!
 
#62
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

I think its funny how people try to dictate what other people should do based on their own limitations ( 'i can't do it so you shouldn't either' mentality). I can't read wind as well as a 1,000yd Palma champion (like Brian Litz) if anything i would try to learn from him. If a guy can do it he can do it (he's got it on video).

I was playing with JBM using 338 Snipetac ballistics (i know the guy in the video was using an Edge but bear with me). On a calm day with a shooter who has practiced at those distances it's possibly a high percentage shot (of course for me until i tested the theory on my own i would not risk the shot). 1/4 moa is another story entirely. You don't need a 3.75" group at 1500 yds to take out an animal.

I wonder if the guys commenting are just worried that some dude is going to get his 308 18" barreled rifle out and start flinging hail mary's at 1,500 yds because he saw somebody do it on the internet.

You could probably crush a golf ball with a 9 iron and get 200yds but it's not likely a high percentage shot. However, with a 3 wood a lot more likely (poor example i know but you get the idea).
 
#63
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

Eddybo,
I went back and re-read. You said you would contend your rifle was a 1/4 moa rifle. Can you clarify as to how far? Also, what are the specs on it? I am wanting to build another here during the winter and would appreciate the info.
 
#64
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mram10</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Eddybo,
I went back and re-read. You said you would contend your rifle was a 1/4 moa rifle. Can you clarify as to how far? Also, what are the specs on it? I am wanting to build another here during the winter and would appreciate the info. </div></div>

It is a 338 AM built on a Bat CT action with a lilja barrel in an A5 with a jewell trigger. Kirby Allen built the rifle. I would say that since I have shot the largest number of 1/4 moa groups with the rifle at 787 yards, that for 3 shots that it is a 800 yard 1/4 MOA rifle. That does not mean that every time I have ever shot the rifle it shoots 1/4 MOA groups. But I am not surprised at all when it does, and disappointed when it does not. The groups I shoot with this rifle are not even close to the smallest groups I have shot at this range, but those smaller groups were shot with basically bench rest rifles.
 
#65
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

A. 3 shots is not a group. 5 shots minimum, 10 shots preferred
B. One must average the size of all groups
C. A minimum of 20 groups is required before you have a statisticly meaningful sample

Most '1/4 MOA' rifles actually group about a minute, which of course depresses people, so they cherry pick 3 shot groups and call it good.

Now, I don't really care much what people think their rifle shoots, but please don't tell me about it unless it's real, it's just annoying. Indulge you fantasy if you like, just leave me out of it.
 
#67
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A. 3 shots is not a group. 5 shots minimum, 10 shots preferred
B. One must average the size of all groups
C. A minimum of 20 groups is required before you have a statisticly meaningful sample

Most '1/4 MOA' rifles actually group about a minute, which of course depresses people, so they cherry pick 3 shot groups and call it good.

Now, I don't really care much what people think their rifle shoots, but please don't tell me about it unless it's real, it's just annoying. Indulge you fantasy if you like, just leave me out of it. </div></div>

You are correct, but you do not burn up barrel life in some rifles because, they just do not last that long. If you shoot several 3 shot 1/4 MOA groups then it starts to mean a little something. I admit that I have never shot a 5 shot group with this particular rifle. If you only get about 1K rounds out of a barrel only a dumbass burns the barrel up shooting groups. Load work up is about the only times I ever shoot groups with this rifle, and only three shot groups. The bulk of the shooting with that rifle after that is gathering data for verifying drops. I will admit that most of the rifles I consider to be 1/4 MAO rifles are my 6mms. Out of the twenty five or so custom rifles I own I only consider about 6 to be 1/4 MOA rifles and most of those are benchrest rifles.

BTW if you read the entire thread you will see where I stated that defintions of a 1/4 MOA rifle vary greatly and that I have never claimed to be able to reliably shoot 1/4 MOA at 1500 yards, even with spotters.
 
#68
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

Simply overlay all the 3 shots groups you DO shoot. It's not about a five shot string, it's about plotting EVERY shot, not just the shots we like.

If you shoot 5 1/4 MOA 3 shot groups, and 10 3/4 MOA groups, is it a 1/4 MOA rifle? No, it may not even be a 1 MOA rifle. Now if you plot all 45 shots around the aiming point, you probably have a good idea of how it shoots.

I don't want you to shoot groups either, excepting competitions that call for them, groups don't really mean much at all. I'd be more interested in a series of single shots, at varied ranges and the distance from center for each shot. No, you don't get spotters.

You want a really good idea of the performance of the system? Shoot 1 shot each day, from different positions and ranges from 100 to 800 yards at a single target. Mark each shot on the target with the range. Now measure the average distance from center in MOA for every shot and double it. THAT'S WHAT THE RIFLE SHOOTS. Hardly anyone will like that answer, since it won't be < 1 MOA.
 
#71
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Simply overlay all the 3 shots groups you DO shoot. It's not about a five shot string, it's about plotting EVERY shot, not just the shots we like.

If you shoot 5 1/4 MOA 3 shot groups, and 10 3/4 MOA groups, is it a 1/4 MOA rifle? No, it may not even be a 1 MOA rifle. Now if you plot all 45 shots around the aiming point, you probably have a good idea of how it shoots.

I don't want you to shoot groups either, excepting competitions that call for them, groups don't really mean much at all. I'd be more interested in a series of single shots, at varied ranges and the distance from center for each shot. No, you don't get spotters.

You want a really good idea of the performance of the system? Shoot 1 shot each day, from different positions and ranges from 100 to 800 yards at a single target. Mark each shot on the target with the range. Now measure the average distance from center in MOA for every shot and double it. THAT'S WHAT THE RIFLE SHOOTS. Hardly anyone will like that answer, since it won't be < 1 MOA. </div></div>

The definition of a 1/4 MOA rifle varies. I know builders who if they can make the rifle shoot one 1/4 MOA group, then they say the rifle is a 1/4 MOA rifle. IF I took that to be an accurate definition I would have a bunch of 1/4 MOA rifles, heck I could probably claim they were all 1/4 MOA. My definition lies somewhere between theirs and yours. If I can while loading at the bench make that rifle shoot a few back to back 1/4 MOA groups I say it has 1/4 MOA potential. I think you have the most stringent definition I have seen yet. Do you have a rifle that meets your definiton? I have shot an aggregate under .250 with a rifle that probably would not meet your definition. If you read the whole thread and the long range deer thread that spawned this abomination of a poll you will know that I realize that lots of folks have some screwy definitions of a 1/4 MOA rifle.
 
#72
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If you shoot 5 1/4 MOA 3 shot groups, and 10 3/4 MOA groups, is it a 1/4 MOA rifle? No, it may not even be a 1 MOA rifle. </div></div>

This part really makes no sense it would be like a .5625 moa rifle. You are right about how the more data collected will result in the true grouping capabilities of your gun "Law of Large Numbers", but to get the true grouping capabilities you would need to shoot it an infinite amount of times which is impossible or plot it as some sort of linear function and take the limit. But in actuality who really cares?
 
#73
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

No, I have no 1/4 MOA rifles. Neither does anyone else I know. I've got a couple that are probably good for 3/4, but nothing truly better that that. The definition does not vary, people are just not willing to accept reality, so they cheat. They shoot 3 shots and call it a group, or throw out 'fliers', or just look at one or two groups out of 50 and go "1/4 MOA, wow, this rifle is really that good!". Even a blind squirrel...

qk78, you are presuming that all the groups are perfectly centered on the same point, which would be quite unlikely in my experiance. Suppose a 100 yard 1/4" group 1/4" left of center, then a second 1/4" group 1/4" right of center. This is a 1 MOA group now, which is a whole lot closer to what the rifle can do than either single group represents. Off those two groups, it's a fair bet the next shot will be within 1/2" of the aiming point, which makes for a 1 MOA circular error probable.

This is a similar problem to people looking at the SD from 5 rounds over the chronograph. That means almost nothing at all, call me when you get 40 or 50 rounds out.

This is all work though, and again, if people got the real numbers, depressing to those who paid mega bucks for a rifle only to see the ACTUAL performance. What matters is not what you did once, it's what can you do ON DEMAND, WITHOUT FAIL. That just happens to be a whole lot worse than most people want to know.
 
#74
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

I will have to agree that if you take every shot that ever goes down the barrel, that a 1/4 MOA rifle is impossible. Heck, by your definition I doubt that you have a 3/4MOA rifle. I know a lot of benchrest shooters who will disagree with your definition though. When most say 1/4 MOA rifle it means capable of shooting 1/4 MOA.
I do not know any rifles by your definition, even if you are staying on top of your load. Hell I have shot some 1 inch groups in bad conditions at 100 yards or when I did not stay on top of my load. Those are factors beyond the control of the rifle. They are all effected by environmental conditions.
 
#75
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">, it's what can you do ON DEMAND, WITHOUT FAIL. That just happens to be a whole lot worse than most people want to know. </div></div>

You are kind of taking things kinda out of context. This does not necessarily prove that your rifle is not 1/4 moa but that you as a human cannot shoot those groups on demand to get a real feel for accuracy in your sense you would have to take human error out of it all together and use some sort of robot.
 
#76
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

Yeah, reality is a bitch, huh. EVERY RIFLE is '1/4 MOA capable'. Just shoot once. Or, shoot several hundred rounds and pick the 3 shots closest together. That's pretty much what you are doing by shooting a couple three shot groups and calling it good.

The question a practial shooter is trying to answer, or at least SHOULD be trying to answer is, How far from POA can I be SURE of placing this shot? There are not many shooters who can say "Within 1/8 MOA at a range between 100 and 500 yards", but that's what a 1/4 MOA rifle should deliver.

It's a SYSTEM, rifle, ammo, optics, and shooter combined. Benchrest attempts to take out the shooter, then normally ignores distance from POI, just looking at group size, which then becomes a mechanical pursuit rather akin to building race cars to run on a dynomometer. Interesting in some respects, but mostly unrelated to a practical shooting problem. Intrinsic accuracy is all well and good, but if you can't use it, what does it matter?

Hold error alone amounts to 1/4 MOA in most cases, much less range errors, velocity variance, etc, etc.

I'm quite happy with a 1 MOA system, 1.5 is quite usable in most cases, even 2 MOA is servicable.
 
#77
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

qk, the robot system is called benchrest, go down the line at a match and see how many 1/4 MOA groups are fired everytime by all the competitors. 1/4 MOA won't be the match winner, but most of the groups won't be that good either.

The context was the question in the poll, which I did not take to mean machine rests. Though, even then...
 
#78
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, reality is a bitch, huh. EVERY RIFLE is '1/4 MOA capable'. Just shoot once. Or, shoot several hundred rounds and pick the 3 shots closest together. That's pretty much what you are doing by shooting a couple three shot groups and calling it good.

The question a practial shooter is trying to answer, or at least SHOULD be trying to answer is, How far from POA can I be SURE of placing this shot? There are not many shooters who can say "Within 1/8 MOA at a range between 100 and 500 yards", but that's what a 1/4 MOA rifle should deliver.

It's a SYSTEM, rifle, ammo, optics, and shooter combined. Benchrest attempts to take out the shooter, then normally ignores distance from POI, just looking at group size, which then becomes a mechanical pursuit rather akin to building race cars to run on a dynomometer. Interesting in some respects, but mostly unrelated to a practical shooting problem. Intrinsic accuracy is all well and good, but if you can't use it, what does it matter?

Hold error alone amounts to 1/4 MOA in most cases, much less range errors, velocity variance, etc, etc.

I'm quite happy with a 1 MOA system, 1.5 is quite usable in most cases, even 2 MOA is servicable. </div></div>

You have created a definition unto yourself that rules out the possibility of there ever being a 1/4 MOA rifle. I have to go break the news to a bunch of BR shooters that they have 3/4 MOA rifles even though many of them have shot 100 yard aggregates averaging less than .2 with them. I am sure they will get a laugh about it.
 
#79
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

I'm sure there are 1/4 MOA benchrest guns, in their context of pure group size, independant of the actual point of aim. From what I can tell by posted scores, 1/4 MOA BR scores at 1K are fairly rare. 100 yard world records are around 1/6 MOA in all the gun classes, so while 1/4 MOA may not be exceptional, it would not appear to be the norm.

Pure mechanical precision is one thing, field shooting by a person is a whole 'nother problem. I will readily agree that the shooter is the weak link in the system. It most certainly may be that there are fieldable rifles that, shot from a fixture, hold 1/4 MOA on a repeatable basis. This is Sniper's Hide, not Benchrest Central, here, the shooter is part of the system, There may well be 1/4 MOA rifles, there ain't many 1/4 MOA shooters. Therin lies the problem People somehow think that if they have a super duper high dollar rifle, then manage a single 1/4 MOA group, then it's a '1/4 MOA gun', followed by 'if I do my part'. Once again, it's what can you do on demand, not what happened once or twice that truly tells the tale.
 
#80
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure there are 1/4 MOA benchrest guns, in their context of pure group size, independant of the actual point of aim. From what I can tell by posted scores, 1/4 MOA BR scores at 1K are fairly rare. 100 yard world records are around 1/6 MOA in all the gun classes, so while 1/4 MOA may not be exceptional, it would not appear to be the norm.

Pure mechanical precision is one thing, field shooting by a person is a whole 'nother problem. I will readily agree that the shooter is the weak link in the system. It most certainly may be that there are fieldable rifles that, shot from a fixture, hold 1/4 MOA on a repeatable basis. This is Sniper's Hide, not Benchrest Central, here, the shooter is part of the system, There may well be 1/4 MOA rifles, there ain't many 1/4 MOA shooters. Therin lies the problem People somehow think that if they have a super duper high dollar rifle, then manage a single 1/4 MOA group, then it's a '1/4 MOA gun', followed by 'if I do my part'. Once again, it's what can you do on demand, not what happened once or twice that truly tells the tale. </div></div>

If I ever get a chance to take a course in long range shooting at gunsite. You can judge if I can hold 1/4. Maybe I cannot in field positions, but prone from a bipod and bag or from a bench I do okay. Again, you can have your definition which makes 1/4 MOA rifles imaginary.


Edited because I was on all kinds of good drugs yesterday after my lithotripsy. I did not mean to try and weasel a free course out of Cory. If I ever take one I will pay.
 
#81
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

Once you introduce the shooter behind the rifle, all bets are off and it is a whole different ball game. mechanical resters need not apply here.

Getting sighters rounds, and zeroing a rifle at a given known distance is a completely different animal from walking into the field and asking the shooter to perform to the standard of which a BR rifle will shoot in a mechanical rest are two completely different things. Can the same 1/4 MOA Benchrest shooter, walk up in a field with no known distance markers, range the target and then hit it with no wind flags at a distance he hasn't practiced and zeroed on ? Put simply, will he put that same 1/4 MOA or better group on the target, on demand at say 1133 yards, if he is used to shooting 1k br ? He could probably group well, but I doubt it will be on the target given the fact that is not his game.

Falling back to the bench rest argument in a field rifle debate is weak at best, it shows you have very little foundation in what actual field shooting is about. The limits and liabilities are very different from even F Class or Palma let alone Benchrest when you consider all that goes into a shot in the wild. While accuracy maybe measured the same, as in a group size, the reality of the hit on target on demand are very different.
 
#82
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

Kill zone is larger than .25 MOA at 1500 yards it's more like .75 MOA so if I guy can shoot 1.5 MOA groups all day then he would have a 50% chance of a hit in the kill zone. Better odds then a lot of redneck hunters at 100 and 200 yards. I watch guys shooting at the range every hunting season that can't hit a zeroing paper target at 100 yards so. These same redneck hunters would argue that that shot was unethical.

Taking a shot like that would depend on your equipment, and the shooters capabilities, and more importantly if you had a good spotter, and I would prefer to take a spotter shot. Shooting alone then I would recommend against taking a shot at that distance.
 
#83
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once you introduce the shooter behind the rifle, all bets are off and it is a whole different ball game. mechanical resters need not apply here.

Getting sighters rounds, and zeroing a rifle at a given known distance is a completely different animal from walking into the field and asking the shooter to perform to the standard of which a BR rifle will shoot in a mechanical rest are two completely different things. Can the same 1/4 MOA Benchrest shooter, walk up in a field with no known distance markers, range the target and then hit it with no wind flags at a distance he hasn't practiced and zeroed on ? Put simply, will he put that same 1/4 MOA or better group on the target, on demand at say 1133 yards, if he is used to shooting 1k br ? He could probably group well, but I doubt it will be on the target given the fact that is not his game.

Falling back to the bench rest argument in a field rifle debate is weak at best, it shows you have very little foundation in what actual field shooting is about. The limits and liabilities are very different from even F Class or Palma let alone Benchrest when you consider all that goes into a shot in the wild. While accuracy maybe measured the same, as in a group size, the reality of the hit on target on demand are very different.
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Oh you are absolutely right that I have no foundation in field shooting other than hunting, but we are only discussing the definition of a 1/4 MOA rifle, nothing else. I think all of us agree that 1/4 MOA at 1500 is not a reality. By Cory's definition the most accurate rifles in the world are one inch rifles at best. I agree with the performance level of what rifles are capable of, but disagree as to the definition of 1/4 MOA. My definition would be more akin to on any given day while loading at the bench you could shoot a five shot 1/4 MOA group. Cory's definition goes much further and includes in essence shooter capabilities, load, and field conditions. I disagree. IMO We are talking about the capabilities of the gun, only the gun, and nothing more when someone says they have a 1/4 MOA rifle. I know quite a few guys who own quarter MOA rifles that they cannot shoot into an inch and a half at 100 yards. I tried to head this off when I posted in the parallel thread that my rifle was "more like a 1/4 MOA rifle" than the MOA rifle that it was questioned as being, by stating that I know definitions vary and that it would not meet every persons definition of a 1/4 MOA rifle. Some people have not been following the whole thread and maybe jumped in late while missing that.
 
#84
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

At the last Reade match Hasgun shot almost a ragged hole at 1000 yards with three shots, witnessed by the people in the pitts. Does he have a 1/4 MOA rifle at 1000? Is that a 'world record' group?



 
#85
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At the last Reade match Hasgun shot almost a ragged hole at 1000 yards with three shots, witnessed by the people in the pitts. Does he have a 1/4 MOA rifle at 1000? Is that a world record group?

</div></div>

YES !

He needs to start using it on his Resume'
 
#87
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

Graham, tell him I'll give him $50 for that rifle.
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You know, if you are just going to shoot in the same hole, why bother to shoot again?

Eddy, even if you go to a machine rest, does the rifle AVERAGE 1/4 MOA, including ALL the groups? As I've said, every rifle is 1/4 MOA CAPABLE, if you shoot enough. It's not a 1/4 MOA rifle just because it turned in a couple of 1/4" 100 yard 3 shot groups. If you took every group you ever shot with it, then averaged the group size and it was 1/4, then fine, I'd call it a 1/4 MOA rifle.

I just did a Foreign Weapons class last week and put 5 shots from a ragged out PSL into a 2" group at 400 yards using surplus Yugo MG ball, does that mean I've got a 1/2 MOA PSL? Hardly, I just won the lottery that day on where the bullets landed. I could not do that again on the best day I ever had, so it counts for nothing. Oh, and it was the best five out of 10 shots, 1 of which was entirely off the paper. Not all that impressive now that I read it.
 
#88
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham, tell him I'll give him $50 for that rifle.
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You know, if you are just going to shoot in the same hole, why bother to shoot again?

Eddy, even if you go to a machine rest, does the rifle AVERAGE 1/4 MOA, including ALL the groups? As I've said, every rifle is 1/4 MOA CAPABLE, if you shoot enough. It's not a 1/4 MOA rifle just because it turned in a couple of 1/4" 100 yard 3 shot groups. If you took every group you ever shot with it, then averaged the group size and it was 1/4, then fine, I'd call it a 1/4 MOA rifle.

I just did a Foreign Weapons class last week and put 5 shots from a ragged out PSL into a 2" group at 400 yards using surplus Yugo MG ball, does that mean I've got a 1/2 MOA PSL? Hardly, I just won the lottery that day on where the bullets landed. I could not do that again on the best day I ever had, so it counts for nothing. Oh, and it was the best five out of 10 shots, 1 of which was entirely off the paper. Not all that impressive now that I read it. </div></div>

I understand what your saying Cory, I just disagree with you. Sure you get groups that are anomalies, once in a while. But can you do it on any given day, loading at the bench. I say loading at the bench because there are days where changing enviromentals can knock your load out of its node and turn a .09 rifle into a .5 rifle in just a few hours.

Your definition takes into account siad load variability, which is beyond the capability of the gun. I say that if on any given day if you can work a load and make that rifle shoot shoot 1/4 MOA groups it is a 1/4 MOA rifle. For instance if I can take my BR rifle out shoot a .5 group, add a couple clicks of powder and then shoot 5 .25 5 shot groups it is a 1/4 MOA rifle. BTW shooting 5 .25 inch groups is damn near impossible for me at a BR match.

Here is what your definition is saying, " this is a 1/4 MOA rifle, with a 1/4 MOA load, being shot in 1/4 MOA conditions, by a 1/4 MOA shooter, every day, day in and day out, regardless." I just think it is a BS definition.

If every rifle is 1/4 MOA capable I got a few I would like you to work a load up for and shoot just one 1/4 MOA group.

Maybe gun builders and shooting instructors need a different definition. I do not know many builders who will advertise a 1/4 MOA guarantee by your definition. You are the first person who has ever given me that alternative definition. Is that one you came up with on your own, or is that a consensus here on the hide? If it is a hard and fast definition here I am gonna have to buy some of the 1/2 inch rifles I see advertised for sale here. Because if they are half inch rifles by your definition then they gotta be shooting a bunch of zeros to offset the .7 and .8s they are gonna shoot when the load goes away.
 
#89
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At the last Reade match Hasgun shot almost a ragged hole at 1000 yards with three shots, witnessed by the people in the pitts. Does he have a 1/4 MOA rifle at 1000? Is that a 'world record' group?



</div></div>

Never shot a ragged hole at 1K but I did bust the spindle on two consecutive shots. (actually that was at 600 not 1K)
It has been a while since I shot any type of match because of health problems Last match I shot I shot like a 198 14x on one string, but one shot was a freakin 8 cause I got caught in a let up. Does that mean I got a 2 MOA rifle?
 
#90
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

Eddy,

Since we cannot agree on a set definition, I won't debate the "1/4 moa rifle" anymore. I am more like Cory. If I have a large sample size, then I will use every bit of information to describe what my rifle can do. I don't care if my rifle is shooting a 1/4 moa group over the target at 1000yds, I am only interested in my first three shots from a cold bore hitting within a moa of my poa.

It makes it difficult when definitions differ, since I cannot truly know how my rifle compares to those of others. Either way, it sounds like you have a nice rifle.
 
#91
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

Once I shot a 4 shot group at 1430 yards that measured 1.25" since we are toting bragging rights, witnessed by my hunting partner.
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Thats not the norm by any means and I'd like to see that happen again in my lifetime. What I do know is that I can shoot 10 shot groups that are under 20" at that distance, the size of the 10 ring on a 1000 benchrest target is 20". I think most people look at their best and not their worste when making these kinds of assessments and the funny thing is that rifles and ammunition are the biggest limitation on accuracy but most guys don't shoot enough rounds down range to see it and they blame themselves for weapon and ammo issues or limitations. Not to say you don't have to be a great marksman to shoot well but there are a lot of great marskmen in the world and on this forum. Next time your out shoot several 5 shot groups using the same point of aim on a single target and watch to see if each group lands in the same place on the target watch for uncalled flyers and you will see if your system and ammo have weaknesses that can be improved. Once you tweak everything to eliminate those problems then you will know your systems true capabilities are and what your rifle can do and what is possible with today's technology.

Once you have maximized your rifles capability and know what the grouping capabilities are then start training for single shot hits at random distances and measure the distance from your aiming point to where your bullet actually impacted so you know if it impacted within it's grouping area. The more you practice this the better you will get and the more you will learn if you can make that shot on that trophy elk.
 
#94
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

So, we have eddy talking about what the rifle can do, purely the rifle, taking the shooter, weather etc out of the equation.

We then have Cory talking about what the entire package can do, day in and day out, this is taking into account the shooter, weather, amount of alcohol consumed etc...

You two are comparing apples to axe handles here.

I would agree with eddy in his definition, a rifle's capabilities are just that,take everything else out of the equation, consistent 1/4moa means a 1/4moa rifle at the given distance. This is purely mechanical, and does not mean you can shoot 10-5 shot groups, picking the best of the 5 shot groups for score (obviously), but also does not mean that because me shooting the rifle, in normal hunting conditions and shooting an moa group, that this weighs in on the rifles capabilities.
So we strap the rifle in, 5 consecutive 5 shot 1/4moa groups, then I put it on a bipod and shoot 5 consecutive moa groups, rifle is 1/4moa, but me and the rifle are ... accurate, this I suppose would be determined by the aggregate of all shots fired over the life of the rifle.
And I agree with Cory, the entire package, you, your ranging capabilities, weather... So on, are not a 1/4 moa package just because your rifle may be, not that people are necessarily saying this, but the point is made, and it is a good one.

You two never really hit the same page, but there is a lot of intelligent debate going on, and it is fantastic to read.
 
#95
Re: 1500 Yard 0.25 MOA Confidence Poll

With the factors of MV, wind, humidity, angle, earth rotation, spin drift, trigger squeeze and error of scope (in adjustments) and error of all of the above (in estimation) I would say no. BUT I may still take the shot : )
 
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