155 Scenar not working out

[kaspermj]

Ok. Here is the problem.
I have been shooting long range practical shooting for quite some time now. When i started I used the 175SMK with great results
Lately I have been shooting the 167 Lapua Scenar (got a serious deal om some factory ammo)
But I had allways wanted to try the 155 Scenar. The numbers looked great. Flatter trajektory and less wind drift.
So I had a friend of mine make some different loads I took to the range. But no matter what we do they are just awfull. Groups were from 30 to 45mm (Yes im going metric om you) from 100meters. The 167 Factory were about 10mm.
I shot them at 600 meters today, with these results. The 167 Scenar were 9,5cm group (pretty awerage for me)
The 155 that shot best at 100 were 29,5cm. The most terrible group I have ever shot at that distance.
So I am beginning to suspect the 155 just doesnt work for me. I would really appreciate any feedback om how you got them to work.
Rifle I am using is Remington 700P, 26 inch barrel 1/12inch twist bedded in a McMillan A5. Scope is USO ST10.
Thanks

 

[19Scout77]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

How long are you loading them? My experience with 155s (which has been positive) shows that they like to be really close to or into the lands. Plus Factory 700s generallyt have a REALLY long throat, so if you are not seating them long I'd start there.

 

[Wil]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

I've found they will tolerate a jump quite well.... and they like to be pushed FAST... REAL FAST!

I shoot the 155 almost exclusively & I've shot them from a stock remmy & a custom with great results from either.

I've loaded to max mag length in the stock remmy (2.82) and still had it shoot great.

 

[desertHK]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How long are you loading them? My experience with 155s (which has been positive) shows that they like to be really close to or into the lands. Plus Factory 700s generallyt have a REALLY long throat, so if you are not seating them long I'd start there. </div></div>

1+. I would measure the chamber length. I can tell you however, the stock Remy chamber is going to be quite long. I load my to mag length at 2.910". Some folks here load them even longer.

 

[Graham]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Check your bore diameter.

 

[Rotortuner]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Everything i have read says you need to push those at around 2900fps or so. You need to get up into that range and Like everyone else said, measure your OAL so you can seat the bullet in closer to the lands. then give it another try.

CJG

 

[Graham]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

My 155 Scenars start shooting well at 2800fps, they don't mind .020 of jump, and they hate being stuck into the lands. Some factory barrels will not shoot them well because the Scenars like a tight bore, like .299.

 

[senna.bra]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

I had similar issues with the 155gr and now I shoot 175gr long range or 168gr for inside 300 meters only. I have 1 in 12 twist and we used the green h. formula. I can't argue, it worked really well.

equation is caliber squared (.308x.308) divided by bullet length. this times 150 (for velocities under 2700) equals necessary twist. for lapua 155 [email protected]/[email protected]=11.1 which is faster than what you have. i realize that you're running 2800 and the 180 factor is for over 2800, but you're just over that so....if it was 3200, maybe......for sierra 168's, .095/[email protected][email protected], which is closest to what you have. this should work the best. for sierra 175's, .095x/[email protected]=11.55, which is still faster than what you got, so....i rounded the numbers to 3 decimals, it's even better if you run the whole number, i ain't gonna copy 12 digits.......in your range, more velocity would seem to help, but supposedly the 168's are best at 2600, so......run the numbers yourself w/all the digits on a calculator and see for yourself, einstein.......

 

[Graham]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

It's not a twist issue.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

We need to see the rest of your load recipe to make further statements than already posted.

Case:
Bullet: 155 Scenar
Powder:
Charge Weight:
Primer:
OAL:
DFL: // distance from lands
How was the case sized?
Were the cases fire formed in that chamber?
Did you shoot over a chronograph?
Any idea on the velocity?
Did the 600 yard drop data indicate good velocity?

Normally, we tend to use around 44.5 gr of something like Varget for 175 SMKs, 45.0 for 168s, and up to 47.8 gr for the 155s. you may not be loading them up stiffly enough (in Winchester cases).

 

[308sako]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

.

 

[Tims]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Kaspermi, I dont know what powders are available to you in Denmark but I would try N140, Varget, or Re15. These powders work well for the Lapua 155's.

 

[Jedi]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Nothing special about making da skinny shoot

maybe most widely used bullet here, ton of info on loads etc

ck some of my posts or pm me if ya like

 

[senna.bra]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

I won't desagre with you but why it is not a twist issue. I want to learn... please let me know.

TKS,

SC

 

[ssgp2]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: senna.bra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I won't desagre with you but why it is not a twist issue. I want to learn... please let me know.

TKS,

SC </div></div>

The Lapua 155Scenar is cheating the normal bullet configuration.

The rifle twist is in relation to the bearing surface of the bullet.
The Scenar profile is very close to a 175grs. This is possible because Lapua left the nose of the bullet empty(no lead)

 

[Graham]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: senna.bra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I want to learn... please let me know.</div></div>The 155 Scenar:
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/Lapua_Scenar.pdf

Twist and stability:
http://bryanlitz.bravehost.com/articles/7mmNumberOne.pdf

 

[FootSoldier]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Great article. Thanks for the link.

 

[senna.bra]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: senna.bra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I want to learn... please let me know.</div></div>The 155 Scenar:
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/Lapua_Scenar.pdf

Twist and stability:
http://bryanlitz.bravehost.com/articles/7mmNumberOne.pdf
</div></div>

Thanks, good stuff.

 

[wfv56]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Man don't fight trying to get a bullet to shoot too long. Each rifle has a preference. If those Sierra 175's shoot stop dogging that Scenar. It may be a dead end. For reference I never see a 155 Scenar on the line at a Palma match. Consider Berger or Sierra 155 bullets if you want a 155. Bill

 

[ssgp2]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

My load for the 155Scenar was 2.910"OAL with lots of Varget @ 2900fps.

 

[Ares]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Today I will go to test my 155 Scenar loads with 2.950" OAL from 20" factory barrel. Will see how they will shoot

 

[Ares]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Who told that 155 Lapua Scenar needs to run fast?

Speeds were:
1 - forgot to switch Chrony on

2 - 2578
3 - 2510
4 - 2579
5 - 2553

 

[matchking]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wfv56</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> For reference I never see a 155 Scenar on the line at a Palma match. </div></div>
What's the reason for that? Seems like a TON of F/TR shooters use 'em with pretty good success.

 

[FootSoldier]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

I run them from my 24" FN SPR at 2780fps with 44.0 grs of Varget, seated .030" off the lands. (2.857" OAL). I was running 2902fps with IMR4895 46.4 grs, but seeing pressure signs that made me back off.

The faster load worked best, but the tradeoffs are not worth the difference in performance for me. I can get to 1k yards with 29.5 MOA correction on the slower load, so I'm gtg.

 

[wfv56]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Struggles to get them to shoot to the standard of the Berger and Sierra bullets. In the guns that shoot the 155 Lapua well they are the same high quality as the rest of Lapua's line. The main point I was trying to make is the original poster mentioned a 175 Sierra shot great. I think we often continue to chase new loads when the answer is already found. Bill

 

[matchking]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

I agree that some chase things too far; however, I have always found the Bergers to be harder to "get to shoot" than the Lapuas and the Sierras just don't do it for me.

My 175 load has a 3 MOA drop difference at 1000 yards between the SMK (38) and the Berger VLD (35). Swap to my 155 load (which is mild compared to most) and I shave off another 3+ minutes. (can shave off 5 with a hot load). To me, that is worth chasing awhile, though I never had to look hard to find a load that worked.

I don't shoot Palma, but I do shoot an occasional F-class match. I can't see a reason why you would see nobody using the Scenars on the line.

 

[wfv56]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

I'll ask some F-TR guys what they shoot. With no bullet weight requirement I would shoot a heavier bullet than a 155. I know last years Nat. champion in F-Tr. He shot a Berger 185 bt. That is a nice bullet with a 560 bc. Note a bc of about 459 on a 155 Scenar. Bill

 

[Jedi]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Not bad shooting Bro

But consider many here obtain same or better results @ 2950+fps

Thats alot of terminal performance your losing, if it makes ya happy press on...good luck

 

[Ares]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

That is in the middle of my loads testing. I have another 5 loads to test. This slow load do not know, how pressure signs looks like

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Damn what are yall pushing a 155 scenar with to get that kinda speed ..... 2950?

Ive got some to shove over some VV540 and max load on it is 47.1 grains which just happens to be the accuracy load as well. BUT the listed speed is only at 2854 or soemthing like that. Over 100 fps slower, now granted that is out of a 24 inch test barrel. I wouldnt think that stepping up to a 28 or 28 inch barrel is gonna pick it up close to 100 fps.

 

[Nuttshooter]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

I get 2950 with varget out of a 23in barrel.46grs i think.

 

[1911.it]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

The max published charge of varget for the 155 scenar is 47.0g. I have really good results with 46.7g and this is my standard mass quantity load. I also have good luck with the 175g SMK and 45.0g varget. I load ~5:1 scenar over SMK because it shoots flatter and is slightly more accurate. I seat both to just shy of max mag length. More good load data ideas in the .308 reloading section.

 

[Wil]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Chrono'd my load today...

.308Win
47.5gr Varget
155 Scenar
Win brass
Fed 210 primer
3.265 from Ogive (2.88 OAL)... it's about a 15thousanths jump for me..

2949fps avg

ES 15
SD 7

shot well enough to shoot 1/2 MOA at 500m today... I have multiple witnesses as well....

 

[USMCj]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wfv56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll ask some F-TR guys what they shoot. With no bullet weight requirement I would shoot a heavier bullet than a 155. I know last years Nat. champion in F-Tr. He shot a Berger 185 bt. That is a nice bullet with a 560 bc. Note a bc of about 459 on a 155 Scenar. Bill </div></div>

Wrong, the 155 Scenar has a BC of .508 over 2800fps. And I dont know of anyone running them slower than 2850. I run mine at 2930.

 

[Wil]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wfv56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll ask some F-TR guys what they shoot. With no bullet weight requirement I would shoot a heavier bullet than a 155. I know last years Nat. champion in F-Tr. He shot a Berger 185 bt. That is a nice bullet with a 560 bc. Note a bc of about 459 on a 155 Scenar. Bill </div></div>

Wrong, the 155 Scenar has a BC of .508 over 2800fps. And I dont know of anyone running them slower than 2850. I run mine at 2930. </div></div>

That is the 'advertised' BC of the 155 Lapua Scenar, and to say that it's generous is an understatenemt... Brian Litz has done the testing, and the BC is a bit more conservative than what Lapua advertises.

It's not .459 but it is not .508 either...

Brian can you chime in here?

 

[robpiat]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

155s didn't work in one rifle I have, but worked great in another. Both the same twist rate...who knows!!

 

[Chiller]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

tag

 

[ubet]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Shoot what your stick likes! Some like Sierras, some like amaxs bergers whatever shoot the load for the distance it likes best. I shoot bergers and lapuas of the same weight my gun likes them about the same. My lapuas shoot best when they are tamping down on the powder, I do have to weigh and measure with them a lot more than I do the Bergers though, I load the Bergers .003 into the lands, and the Lapuas .003 off of the lands.
Ubet

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

I would have your friend load up some 155 scenars for a ladder test. Start 10% under max and go a bit over and watch for pressure signs on the way up.

Just throwing some loads together and seeing how they print is a good way to throw powder and bullets downrange, but it really isn't going to tell you about what your rifle likes. You can "stumble" on a good load, but you will never know where the accuracy nodes are, or what another .3-.5gr of powder would have gotten you.

My 700 action is the same as yours. It loved the 155 scenar with 47gr of RE-15. I haven't chrono'ed it yet so I have no idea what the velocity is.

 

[ricka0]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Wrong, the 155 Scenar has a BC of .508 over 2800fps. And I dont know of anyone running them slower than 2850. I run mine at 2930. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is the 'advertised' BC of the 155 Lapua Scenar, and to say that it's generous is an understatenemt... Brian Litz has done the testing, and the BC is a bit more conservative than what Lapua advertises.
</div></div>
Lop-wa (Lapua) transposed the BC of the 155 & 167gr Scenars - and no one seems to notice the 167 is wrong. The 155gr has a BC of .470 (what Lop-Wa claims the 167gr Scenar has) - The 167 really has the .508 BC.

 

[Wil]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out


Are you suggesting that the 167 Scenar seen below has a .508 BC...

...and the 155 Scenar seen below has the lower BC of .470?

I think both BCs are inflated, but the 155 DEFINITELY has a higher BC than the 167 regardless...


I know the G1 BCs are velocity dependent, and Lapua obviously uses the BC for the higher velocity....thus the reason I use the G7 BC.

 

[wfv56]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Guys .459 is the average BC Mr. Litz measured for the Lapua 155. Not a bad number for a 155. Right in line with the newest 2156 Sierra and 155.5 Berger. But .509 dream on. Take home message shoot the one that shoots in your gun. Support the U.S. company if you can. Regards Bill

 

[learjet]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

interesting, but i ive chronyed my scenar load at 2950 on a couple different chronys, on different days. ive gotten dope at 2 ranges out to 1k yds at various temps...both ranges at 1200msl..and at 1k my dope is 28-29 moa. if the BC is .459 i should be closer to 31...

ive seen the same results w my 300wsm(faster mv), and my m1a(slower mv) that when programmed into a couple different ballistic puters show the BC around .5 for the scenar

i dont really care, because i know what my dope is, and what my rifle does, and no bullets ive tried have the trajectory of the scenars, when fired from my rifle. some folks lovem, some hatem, but scenars are worth tryin when ur developing 'THE' load for ur rifle

 

[Wil]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

G1 BC is velocity based.... it will vary depending on how fast it is traveling...

Use the G7 BC and the numbers should jive better with your dope..

that being said.. I will ALWAYS trust real dope before I trust the computer...

 

[wfv56]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Learjet you said it all. Good accuracy and known drop for your gun trumps all. Bill

 

[JLM]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Have any of you guys shot the 155 Scenar out of a 1:10?

For whatever reason I couldn't get the 155 A-Max to perform, but the 178 shoots the lights out. Hrm.....

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

Worked well out of my buddy's Savage 1-10.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Wrong, the 155 Scenar has a BC of .508 over 2800fps. And I dont know of anyone running them slower than 2850. I run mine at 2930. </div></div>

That is the 'advertised' BC of the 155 Lapua Scenar, and to say that it's generous is an understatenemt... Brian Litz has done the testing, and the BC is a bit more conservative than what Lapua advertises.

It's not .459 but it is not .508 either...

Brian can you chime in here? </div></div>

He found 0.462, I got a little higher...

Plug his numbers into JBM and you get something like this:

308, 175 SMK, 2800 fps., -358" drop, 98.3" wind (10 MPH)
308, 155 Scenar, 2950 fps., -322" drop, 93.9" wind (10 MPH)
308, 175 Berger BT, 2800 fps., -322" drop, 84.3" wind (10 MPH)
308, 190 Berger VLD, 2750 fps., -328" drop, 77.9" wind (10 MPH)
308, 208 AMAX, 2600 fps., -352" drop, 73.7" wind (10 MPH)

I've driven each of those bullets weights 50 fps. faster. The 155 Scenar may best the 175 SMK, but it gets demolished in the wind by the heavier, high BC bullets when you drive them with powders like N550 and RL-17. People are basing their comparisons on drops alone...

I like the 190's in general because they can still be stabilized in sub-zero conditions with a 1-10 twist barrel. For flat out performance, stick a 210 on top of RL-17.

 

[JLM]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Worked well out of my buddy's Savage 1-10.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Wrong, the 155 Scenar has a BC of .508 over 2800fps. And I dont know of anyone running them slower than 2850. I run mine at 2930. </div></div>

That is the 'advertised' BC of the 155 Lapua Scenar, and to say that it's generous is an understatenemt... Brian Litz has done the testing, and the BC is a bit more conservative than what Lapua advertises.

It's not .459 but it is not .508 either...

Brian can you chime in here? </div></div>

He found 0.462, I got a little higher...

Plug his numbers into JBM and you get something like this:

308, 175 SMK, 2800 fps., -358" drop, 98.3" wind (10 MPH)
308, 155 Scenar, 2950 fps., -322" drop, 93.9" wind (10 MPH)
308, 175 Berger BT, 2800 fps., -322" drop, 84.3" wind (10 MPH)
308, 190 Berger VLD, 2750 fps., -328" drop, 77.9" wind (10 MPH)
308, 208 AMAX, 2600 fps., -352" drop, 73.7" wind (10 MPH)

I've driven each of those bullets weights 50 fps. faster. The 155 Scenar may best the 175 SMK, but it gets demolished in the wind by the heavier, high BC bullets when you drive them with powders like N550 and RL-17. People are basing their comparisons on drops alone...

I like the 190's in general because they can still be stabilized in sub-zero conditions with a 1-10 twist barrel. For flat out performance, stick a 210 on top of RL-17. </div></div>

Thank you Sir!

Need to hunt around on here for a load now for Lap brass. Experiments

ETA: the wind out here can own a person so.

 

[CoCaDoRi]

Re: 155 Scenar not working out

I never really got them to run right in my .308.

The shot .5 moa or less to 600 but I found the Berger 175 BT's

shot lights out with H4895.

From the things I've tried with the Scenars (in general). I noticed ( in my data ) they like a tighter bore.

Albeit I've on the run the 139's and 155's