16” 6.5 creedmoor?
- Thread starter steve101610
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I'm talking about those two loads he cited as normal .308 loads, not the 80ksi loads. He hints that they are book loads or a half grain under, but he's getting 150fps - 200fps more than most folks and won't just come out and say what the actual load is.
2000 MRI can’t read it, since you have the hand writing skills of a 3 year old…
50.0 of what?
Any of y'all with these shorter length barrels & gas systems having or had functioning issues ie cycling, ejecting, feeding etc?
I have built two of these now - one in 308 and one in 6.5.
Both run 16" barrels.
308 is Wilson Combat Recon barrel, intermediate gas.
6.5 is custom spec X-Caliber, mid length gas.
Have broken 2 ejectors on the 308 in less than 200 rounds, shooting mostly factory 155 Norma.
6.5 is having ejection issues and showing signs of overgas when the block is almost fully closed.
Running sprinco Orange and KAK heavy carbine buffer.
I have built two of these now - one in 308 and one in 6.5.
Both run 16" barrels.
308 is Wilson Combat Recon barrel, intermediate gas.
6.5 is custom spec X-Caliber, mid length gas.
Have broken 2 ejectors on the 308 in less than 200 rounds, shooting mostly factory 155 Norma.
6.5 is having ejection issues and showing signs of overgas when the block is almost fully closed.
Running sprinco Orange and KAK heavy carbine buffer.
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I had a 16" 308 mid gas that would show pressure signs unless loaded under book minimum, regardless of buffer/carrier weight or gas setting. Brass would have extractor pulls, ejector swipes, and loose pockets after two firings. The issue was excessive dwell; I cut 3.5" off of the barrel and now it runs book max loads without any issues.
AR10 mid gas can be problematic.
The 308 with hybrid cases runs higherNow that's funny right there. 6.5 creeds not keeping up with the 308s ballistically.let me see here which one can run the highest BC bullet fastest...
BC bullets faster than the 6.5 CM with brass cases... fact.
200 SMK to 230 gr Atips are much higher BC than anything available in 6.5.
It's the same hybrid case as the 277 Fury hybrid case which runs similar velocity as the 270 WSM in a necked down hybrid 308 case.
The 270 WSM, and the 277 hybrid have more velocity than the 6.5 CM with high BC bullets.
So one can apply hybrid cases to the 6.5 CM to bring up it's ballistic potential.
The hybrid cases in the creed are definitely fun to play with. .308 hybrid cases are a lot easier, no neck turning, I have some worked up to use for normal high end .308 loads because my mid gas SFAR (like all mid-gas .308s I've had in the past) unlocks early and tears up cases at relatively low charge weights. A longer gas system is the real fix, but I like the SFAR enough that Hybrid cases are worth a try, especially since American Reloading has them for a good deal so often.
I'd expect a mid-gas 6.5 to be rough any way you cut it, but are you using AGBs on these uppers? (Edit, nevermind, missed the part about the gas block being nearly closed on the 6.5)
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Very Interesting read... Thank You to all !!
BTW... IMHO Faxon barrels are like McDonald's Cheeseburgers.
A Cheeseburger in name, ingredients, pretty pics/ specs... but not really a great cheeseburger.
BTW... IMHO Faxon barrels are like McDonald's Cheeseburgers.
A Cheeseburger in name, ingredients, pretty pics/ specs... but not really a great cheeseburger.
The easiest is the 277 Fury.
But any caliber based on the 308 case can be improved in velocity without going to the full 80,000 psi.
Primer pockets stay tight.
I run 358 Win, 308 Win, 6.5CM, 8.6 Blkout, all with hybrid cases.
So you can improve your 6.5 CM to complete with the 6.5 PRC with hybrid cases.
This way the 8.6 Blk keeps up with the 338 Federal in supers and able to go subsonic much easier than the 338 Federal...just get the 6.5 twist or at most a 5 twist.
Stay away from the limiting 3 twist, especially in Faxon, a new report says they still haven't learned to rifle the 3 twist consistently with out torn, galled, pitted, and reamer marked rifling...just like their early ones.
Hybrid cases from 264, 308, 338, 358, and 375...and steps in making 8.6 Blkout.
I modify them by the hundreds.
Test 308 high performance loads.
And how I neck turn, but into the shoulder is good enough with hand tools.
Pursue it or not it's there... and ya don't have to go petal to the metal but leave a safety margin, to improve any 308 head based cartridges.
With the 8 twist one can even shoot 250 Atips at reasonable velocities in 308 Win if set up correctly.
Some powders burn more efficiently at higher pressures, with low S/Ds. Had some excellent numbers with hybrid cases.
Put the effort in get better performance out, and it's adjustable.
It's not for everybody, but some are doing it, and getting positive results.
I've been at it since the hybrid cases first came out.
But you have to be careful and pay attention, like any reloading endevor.
But any caliber based on the 308 case can be improved in velocity without going to the full 80,000 psi.
Primer pockets stay tight.
I run 358 Win, 308 Win, 6.5CM, 8.6 Blkout, all with hybrid cases.
So you can improve your 6.5 CM to complete with the 6.5 PRC with hybrid cases.
This way the 8.6 Blk keeps up with the 338 Federal in supers and able to go subsonic much easier than the 338 Federal...just get the 6.5 twist or at most a 5 twist.
Stay away from the limiting 3 twist, especially in Faxon, a new report says they still haven't learned to rifle the 3 twist consistently with out torn, galled, pitted, and reamer marked rifling...just like their early ones.
Hybrid cases from 264, 308, 338, 358, and 375...and steps in making 8.6 Blkout.
I modify them by the hundreds.
Test 308 high performance loads.
And how I neck turn, but into the shoulder is good enough with hand tools.
Pursue it or not it's there... and ya don't have to go petal to the metal but leave a safety margin, to improve any 308 head based cartridges.
With the 8 twist one can even shoot 250 Atips at reasonable velocities in 308 Win if set up correctly.
Some powders burn more efficiently at higher pressures, with low S/Ds. Had some excellent numbers with hybrid cases.
Put the effort in get better performance out, and it's adjustable.
It's not for everybody, but some are doing it, and getting positive results.
I've been at it since the hybrid cases first came out.
But you have to be careful and pay attention, like any reloading endevor.
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Interesting. Even with the intermediate length (only an extra 1-1.5" gas length) it is still fairly harsh.
Seems like I'm having the same problem with the 6.5 because that is the mid length unfortunately.
Regardless of bolt manufacturer, the roll pins to retain the ejector and spring are pretty much the same. Two roll pins have been sheared clean on the 308.
I have an extra set of pins on the way and I am upgrading to a JP high pressure bolt and will see if anything changes.
A single pass though a .308 die is about the same effort as a single pass through a 7mm-08 die. The 6.5 is more work because I run the .277 cases through a .308 die with the expander removed (helps move the shoulder back some and keep from getting wrinkles), then rough trim, then through a Creed die then final trim and neck turn. Either should be annealed afterwards of course.
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Zero issues with my 16” 6.5 build in ~500 rounds. Criterion barrel, rifle length gas system, JP full mass BCG
I personally wouldn’t run a 16” 6.5 CM with a mid-length gas system.
The best source has been American Reloading, free shipping, and many times on sale.
I have purchased several thousand.
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I run an intermediate gas system in a 16" 308 with no issues. It's has a titanium bolt carrier, and magnesium upper, carbon fiber handguard, titanium muzzle brake, adjustable gas block.
It's a 6 lb 3 oz AR 10 308 16" barrel...
And running 155 grs at 2875, with the highest velocity at 2922 fps and 168 Eldm running at 2756 fps, 208 gr Eldm running at 2442 fps.
This is the AR 10 with the first load of 155 gr bullets out of the 16" barrel, these are standard brass cases many are Lake City.
It's a 6 lb 3 oz AR 10 308 16" barrel...
And running 155 grs at 2875, with the highest velocity at 2922 fps and 168 Eldm running at 2756 fps, 208 gr Eldm running at 2442 fps.
This is the AR 10 with the first load of 155 gr bullets out of the 16" barrel, these are standard brass cases many are Lake City.
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I am starting to realize this now unfortunately. I didn't think rifle length gas would be ideal with the 16" so the only other option was the mid length.
That's interesting. What buffer system?
It is said that 308Win should/can have the same gas length as 223 but it is plainly untrue. "Midlength" is an AR15 gas length and shorter than the Armalite 308Win carbine length gas system. Some 308 work with AR15 midlength and some don't, it's luck of the draw. 16" rifle length 308 Win works great and should be the defacto standard.
You modify your AR 10 to feed 2.960" cartridge, with your Bridgeport mill and carbide end mill, and mags too.
But I'm not shooting 230 gr Atips in the AR10...but I could. That would be my bolt gun where 250 tips can be fired out of the mag.
And use a long action for your 308 build and go 3.4" for 250 ATips in your 308...if ya want with an 8 twist 30" barrel, for maximum effort.
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I’m told that those slower powders with longer duration port pressure cause excessive wear on AR platforms and might be a tad risky. If I remember correctly Hornady published an article on the subject and recommended NOT using Superformance with AR platforms.
Have you seen any indicators of premature wear & tear on your rifles components?
Been a year since you posted this.
How many firings did the brass make it through at the pressures you are running? How much did you set back the shoulders?
How much gas port erosion have you had.
Did you anneal the brass after each firing?
What sort of sizing dies did you use?
If RL26 can’t be obtained would RL25 be a viable alternative?
I have alot of other projects and builds besides running high pressure hybrid case loads through a 6.5 CM or 308 bolt gun, and other calibers.
I do not run those hybrid csses in auto loaders except 358 Win and not for their 80,000 psi attribute, those are bolt gun only, so gas port erosion does not apply here any more than any other AR.
I am not concerned with barrel erosion or barrel life, as all it cost it the price of a barrel blank, as I do all the chambering.
So I've built a 510 Whisper, a 338 Spectre, a 30 RAR, 8.6 Blackout, 338 RCM,...so I've been busy, and do not shoot hybrid cases every time I go shooting ...I have other interests that require aot of time.
No you can not substitute RL 25 for RL 26 and get the velocity.
Any regular commercial sizing die works on every caliber I've tried...the SS cases heads are slightly undersized just like your brass cases...so the sizing die does not size down the SS case heads.
I do not anneal after every firing, just on the initial sizing, along with neck turning.
And a .002" shoulder bump is enough just like loading regular brass cases, cause they are brass except for the SS head portion. And one can get atleast 5 firings from the hybrid cases, most likely much more.
My next 308 load will be copper 110 gr to see how they fare in an 8 twist with hybrid cases, in a bolt gun.
The next project is to put the 510 Whisper into an AR 10 or even an AR 15, with 300 gr Barnes bullets for the most muzzle energy possible out of an AR.
It requires alot of work, complete barrel profiling, chambering, threading, gas port, barrel extension, gas journal, etc..including mag work, case making, and bullet making for sub work....Why? Cause no one is making .510 barrels for ARs.
I was running the .510 Whisper 2875 fps for the 300 gr Barnes in a bolt gun for 5500 ft-lb of energy.
What will it do in an AR... well it will definitely be a low pressure option in the AR 15, and a moderate pressure option for the AR 10, for supers, short range power.
I do not run those hybrid csses in auto loaders except 358 Win and not for their 80,000 psi attribute, those are bolt gun only, so gas port erosion does not apply here any more than any other AR.
I am not concerned with barrel erosion or barrel life, as all it cost it the price of a barrel blank, as I do all the chambering.
So I've built a 510 Whisper, a 338 Spectre, a 30 RAR, 8.6 Blackout, 338 RCM,...so I've been busy, and do not shoot hybrid cases every time I go shooting ...I have other interests that require aot of time.
No you can not substitute RL 25 for RL 26 and get the velocity.
Any regular commercial sizing die works on every caliber I've tried...the SS cases heads are slightly undersized just like your brass cases...so the sizing die does not size down the SS case heads.
I do not anneal after every firing, just on the initial sizing, along with neck turning.
And a .002" shoulder bump is enough just like loading regular brass cases, cause they are brass except for the SS head portion. And one can get atleast 5 firings from the hybrid cases, most likely much more.
My next 308 load will be copper 110 gr to see how they fare in an 8 twist with hybrid cases, in a bolt gun.
The next project is to put the 510 Whisper into an AR 10 or even an AR 15, with 300 gr Barnes bullets for the most muzzle energy possible out of an AR.
It requires alot of work, complete barrel profiling, chambering, threading, gas port, barrel extension, gas journal, etc..including mag work, case making, and bullet making for sub work....Why? Cause no one is making .510 barrels for ARs.
I was running the .510 Whisper 2875 fps for the 300 gr Barnes in a bolt gun for 5500 ft-lb of energy.
What will it do in an AR... well it will definitely be a low pressure option in the AR 15, and a moderate pressure option for the AR 10, for supers, short range power.
Yes I use it exclusively in my 6 Dasher.
Alpha 6 Dasher brass can take pressure better.
As an example I run 110 SMK at 3085 fps as a standard LR load, 3020 fps for 115 DTAC, or 58 GR varmint bullets at 4100 fps.
Alpha brass gives me all I need in 6 Dasher for accuracy standard loads and higher pressure loads too.
But you can make 6 Dasher from Hybrid cases, but with LR primers...which is quite a bit of work and not really needed, unless you want maximum effort.
Pic of turning a 6.5 CM into 6 Dasher...you can do the same with hybrid cases, and see if you can reach 3200 fps with 110 SMK.
I convert hybrid cases for other calibers like 8.6 Blackout to get 338 Federal performance out of a 6.5 twist bolt gun.
The 3 twist auto is a bad choice in my book, so I scrapped it... go 6.5 twist in the 8.6 Blackout.
So yes I recommend Alpha brass for those who do not want to deal with hybrid case forming.
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When you set up your 308 bolt gun correctly for maximum effort the standard 6.5 CM is way behind... just a fact.Now that's funny right there. 6.5 creeds not keeping up with the 308s ballistically.
When you utilize hybrid cases, 8 and 9 twists barrels set up for heavy .8 plus BC bullets, even utilize a long action, or medium action, a chassis, etc for those who feed from mags, for LR shooting.
The 308 wins easily, it runs much higher BC bullets, 230 SMK or 230 Atips, even 250 Atips can be utilized...or .715 g1 BC 200 gr SMK to over 2900 fps.
Go light with 168 eldm at 3255 fps hybrid cases long barrel.
Nothing in 6.5 has the BC of the 308 in .8 plus g1 BC...now add hybrid cases.
Just the facts..
The 6.5 CM is just mediocre as it stands in factory configuration, so is the 308 Win.
New developments come along and make them obsolete, as originally presented.
The new Federal BC 7 mm is an example.
I will let the entire competition world know the flying pig is back. You just have to load them to 80k psi and compare them to 6.5 creedmoor rounds at standard pressure and ignore 153 atips and forget recoil is a factor.
I didn't forget the 153 Atips, I shoot them in my 6.5 CM.... with hybrid cases of course.I will let the entire competition world know the flying pig is back. You just have to load them to 80k psi and compare them to 6.5 creedmoor rounds at standard pressure and ignore 153 atips and forget recoil is a factor.
Not concerned about the "entire competition community."
Which is a ridiculous statement pertaining to every competition shooter, shooting everything from 50BMG competition, to benchrest, to pistol competitions, to the king of the 2 mile...ridiculous.
Many have moved on from the 308 and 6.5 CM in certain competitions... some require a 308 or 223.
None of that matters. If you want to improve these two calibers and others in their orginial form you can... or not, and use them as is.
But do not deny improved performance of new components added to any of these cartridges, can improve their performance quite drastically, over the orginial factory form.
Any over pressure you can push in the 308 you can push in the 6.5 creedmoor to regain its ballistic advantage. No magicall change in physics has happenned with these "new components" you mention.
200g bullets 2900fps in the 308. That's loading well into retard land using conventional components. Probably well into retard land using most actions also.
You 6.5 CM advocates are so much fun.
You are like today's democrats..can't handle the truth.
The 200 gr SMK has a slightly higher BC than the 153 Atip the best the 6.5 has to offer. Plus I shoot it faster without hybrid cases than most will shoot their 153 gr Atip....plus I'll use the hybrid cases...for a clear Win ... you lose, especially in the energy on target contest.
Then there are the 230 SMK, 230 Atips, or even the 250 Atips...are now in play for the new 308, with an 8 twist....nothing in 6.5 can compete with these bullets.
But you are likely to have less recoil to smooth your broken minds.
You are like today's democrats..can't handle the truth.
The 200 gr SMK has a slightly higher BC than the 153 Atip the best the 6.5 has to offer. Plus I shoot it faster without hybrid cases than most will shoot their 153 gr Atip....plus I'll use the hybrid cases...for a clear Win ... you lose, especially in the energy on target contest.
Then there are the 230 SMK, 230 Atips, or even the 250 Atips...are now in play for the new 308, with an 8 twist....nothing in 6.5 can compete with these bullets.
But you are likely to have less recoil to smooth your broken minds.
It’s difficult to call a 308 a 308 with a bullet long enough to require a medium or long action, using way higher pressure than SAAMi spec
For clarification, if you want to cherry pick bullets, the 6.5mm 153gr A-Tip had a 0.359 G7 compared to the current 2231 version of the .308 200gr SMK’s 0.349 G7. Both as measured by applied ballistics. The 6.5 will also be going faster.You 6.5 CM advocates are so much fun.
You are like today's democrats..can't handle the truth.
The 200 gr SMK has a slightly higher BC than the 153 Atip the best the 6.5 has to offer. Plus I shoot it faster without hybrid cases than most will shoot their 153 gr Atip....plus I'll use the hybrid cases...for a clear Win ... you lose, especially in the energy on target contest.
Then there are the 230 SMK, 230 Atips, or even the 250 Atips...are now in play for the new 308, with an 8 twist....nothing in 6.5 can compete with these bullets.
But you are likely to have less recoil to smooth your broken minds.
If we are intellectually honest and look at the overall distribution of loads for 6.5CM vs 308, yes the 6.5CM will come out on top overall for ballistic coefficients and external ballistic performance.
Also does the 2231 200gr SMK even fit in a 308 chamber? Or do you have to do some reaming out of SAAMI spec?
Yeah they are legit, I prefer short barrels even on calibers that historically you wouldn't consider.
The key is managing your expectations for distance.
The key is managing your expectations for distance.
