.17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

[SmallBoreSnipers]

With wind. Damn....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3LkBp1LEf8&feature=related

 

[clmayfield]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

did you notice that you didn't hear any clanging? I smell a rat.

 

[SmallBoreSnipers]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Yeah I was listening for that too. But I can barely hear mine at 300, so I can't say whether you could hear it at 500 or not. I'm definitely having some trouble believing 800 though.

 

[J_Roger]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Cool accent, Irish? Cool vid too

 

[clmayfield]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but you shoot 17HMR. Those looked like about a 5" - 6" group at 500... I haven't shot out to 500 with a 17, but based on my results I don't think I would expect to maintain MOA out to 500 yards. I don't know why the camera angle was taken showing the shooter as opposed to behind the shooter, which is the typical angle someone uses to substantiate a shot.

I am not saying it didn't happen, there are just a number of peculiar things about the video that make me go hmmmm...

As for folks shooting a crow or a fox or whatever at 500 yards... yes I believe it. It is certainly possible to make a lucky shot at that range. To make a 5 or 6-shot group that size at that range is harder for me to swallow.

If the video were shot from behind and I heard some clanging or saw a bullet trace and impact, it would be much more believable for me. Again, I am not saying it didn't happen. I am just having a hard time with it.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

also it would be good to know the details of the rifle being used does it have a tapered rail? what scope and how much elevation was used to shoot 800 yards if the facts were there to show what happened also no wind flags in a quarry makes it harder to believe

 

[SPAK]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Dang, it takes me 20 moa of elevation to get to 330 yards. I can't imagine how much it would take to get to 500 yards.

 

[SmallBoreSnipers]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Yeah and I could barely shoot out to 300. I don't think I'd have the elevation to go much farther. It has to be a totally perfect day too. It's kinda of windy in that video. You'd have insane skills to make groups like he was at that distance. But maybe he has insane skills. I dunno.

 

[SPAK]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Maybe 500 or 800ft? Maybe he got the units mixed up? I haven't done any real testing but I actually have to wait to see my shot impacts at 330 yards. At least for me, just from my elevation adjustments I think the actual bc is a lot lower than the g1 bc of .123 that's out there. I'm not saying it isn't possible but I have an easier time believing a .22 lr being able to go that distance with the heavier bullets. Even that would be quite the feat to hold that kind of grouping. Again not saying it isn't possible, but I'd like to try for myself before I make any judgements.

 

[Nocalphoenix]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

JBM gives about 105moa to get to 800yards....

My experience with a .17hmr concluded it was a 150-175yard gun for squirrels. 300yards I can see someone ringing plates but past that it becomes very difficult to see misses even on a clean dirt backdrop, just not enought emergy to call hits or misses on steel.

 

[vprtoad]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

ya you better have a ton of elevation to even think about this its about 18.5 to 19 mills on a 22rf to 400 let alone 800 yards with a 50 yd zero

 

[223man]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Im calling B.S. as well because I have a 17 hmr and I have shot it at the same thickness of steel out to 360yrds. And it did not have enough power to punch threw. It will not put holes in that kind of metal past may be 50yrds and even then I doubt it.

 

[VYD]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

The laws of physics don't apply to his bullets..........

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

6 inch group at 500yds in a moderate wind with a rimfire. I'll believe that when me sh!t turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet. Yes its an Irish accent.

 

[SmallBoreSnipers]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

223man makes a good point. If there is a slight breeze, some of my hits out at 300 have an elongated streak hole. Theres no way he'd be punching through anything but paper even if he really did make it out that far.

 

[apache308]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Yeah I'm getting a few pings on the BS meter on this one. 300 ...OK.....500 mmmmm...maybe OK. At 800 yds the slightest wind would put a 17 HMR in the next county. SR

 

[223man]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmallBoreSniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">223man makes a good point. If there is a slight breeze, some of my hits out at 300 have an elongated streak hole. Theres no way he'd be punching through anything but paper even if he really did make it out that far. </div></div>I don't even think that it would punch through paper at 800, lol.

 

[Longguns]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

There was some wind in the video but not alot. I'm with the rest of you on this one. B.S. I don't shoot my .17 in the wind if its 10 mph or harder. Don't like the price of ammo and wasting it either. Sure is an explosive little critter though..

 

[bohem]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

B.S. It doesn't have enough energy to punch that plate at 300yd, I've done it with the 17 that I had and you could use 12ga steel sheet as a gong at 300yd. In the wind most of the time all we could do for telling that hits were made was because the polished face of the plate rippled. No sound, light dents, absolutely no penetration.

 

[el gordo2]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anyone actually posted questions to the shooter via YouTube?

</div></div>

Watching his 300 yd target video it only takes a 10" hold over from a 110 yard zero. The thing is a laser!

Here is a guest book from his site.
AWESOMEST 17 HMR SHOOTER

 

[ryanjay11]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

The comments from people defending him on youtube are priceless.

 

[VYD]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Just one of those internet special forces secret service Navy Seal super sniper ninjas. Let's move on, people.

BTW, I just shot a beer can with a sling shot at 30 yards. Does that count for anything?

 

[Longguns]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Did it penetrate? How hard was the wind blowing when you did this feat?

 

[bondoscustomz1]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

We have a range here that is roughly 500yds. I could semi-accurately hit at 300yds but at 500 I was lucky if I accidentially hit a target at that distance. It did penetrate paper at 500 but if I remember correctly it would keyhole. This range is almost windless as the way they have it between treelines. I concur with all who call BS.

 

[Longguns]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Bondoscustomz1, What base do you have on your rifle? Did you guesstimate or dail in. I am wondering because I have shot out to 200 yds and don't know how much elevation is left. Thanks

 

[el gordo2]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ryanjay11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The comments from people defending him on youtube are priceless. </div></div>


yeahhhhhhhhhhhh page 4....

" i met a guy who watched a 60 year old man shoot down range with a .17 and they guy asked the man what he was shooting and he said pennies. they guy thought he was just joking and carried on then saw the guy retrieve 6 pennies from the 500 yard line all dead center shots. he was amazed and the old guy&#65279; walked off all cocky showing everyone lol"

 

[tacshooter223]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

he said it was a 70 dollar scope on a rimfire? eh this story is getting less and less believable.

 

[bondoscustomz1]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

VTR, using a mil-dot and a lot of guesstimation.lol

 

[Longguns]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: el gordo2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ryanjay11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The comments from people defending him on youtube are priceless. </div></div>


yeahhhhhhhhhhhh page 4....

" i met a guy who watched a 60 year old man shoot down range with a .17 and they guy asked the man what he was shooting and he said pennies. they guy thought he was just joking and carried on then saw the guy retrieve 6 pennies from the 500 yard line all dead center shots. he was amazed and the old guy&#65279; walked off all cocky showing everyone lol"

</div></div> Sounds kinda like a romance novel(I guess,never read one) Still have to call B.S. on the video.

Thanks,Bondz

 

[el gordo2]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tacshooter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">he said it was a 70 dollar scope on a rimfire? eh this story is getting less and less believable. </div></div>



easy now, just settle down a bit, he is explains it on page 9>>>>>>

" I have a Centerpoint 4-16x40 illuminated mil-dot&#65279; recticle I got at walmart for $79 . Its a great quality scope I cant fault it at all , although I have read some bad reviews that people had trouble with it losing zero but walmart is great for returning and getting a new one which is great, I will NEVER spend big money on a scope again because I had a Simmons 3-12x50 on a .223 and it cost me €620 here in Ireland , the Centerpoint beats it hands down !"

See there, no point spending big money on a high dollar Simmons,the walmart scope whoops it.

 

[Longguns]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Wonder how many times he turned the dials before it broke and he had to return the scope? I bet WalMart had several in stock and was very accomodating. Yeah Right..

 

[HathcockProtege]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Poor guy. He seems completely flabbergasted by any hint of disbelief! Haha.

 

[SmallBoreSnipers]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bondoscustomz1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have a range here that is roughly 500yds. I could semi-accurately hit at 300yds but at 500 I was lucky if I accidentially hit a target at that distance. It did penetrate paper at 500 but if I remember correctly it would keyhole. This range is almost windless as the way they have it between treelines. I concur with all who call BS. </div></div>

That's pretty sweet you got out to 500. Even if it was with a little luck lol. I wanted to try to hit anything at 500 but the max distance was 300 back in upstate NY. That was hard enough.

 

[mauritz45]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

what a load of bullshit. he raises his head off the stock after every shot,then reestablishes a sight picture at 500yds, guesses the holdover, and fires that quickly??? look at his website, claims its a fine round for shooting whitetails as well...if you do your part. that right there is all the proof necessary--cam

 

[vman]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Ive seen this vid before, and Im calling shenanigans on it.

I dont think the little 17 would penetrate steel at that distance.

I dont believe bullet drop would be that consistent either. He has was looks like 2" of drop amongst those 6 shots at 500 yards.

Now if that were a handloaded centrefire I would say yes thats consistent ammo.

Im not the best shot in the world, but I would not be able to produce a group like that at 500 yards I dont think.

I have attempted 350 to 450 yards on many many occasions and it is extremely difficult to even see impacts at those distances to make productive wind corrections.

warcheen seems like a genuine guy, my guess is maybe he estimated his range incorrectly.

 

[SmallBoreSnipers]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

^ Another good point. About seeing the impacts. The 17 leaves such a small hole that most times at 300 yards, I had to use shoot n c's along with the 20-60x spotting scope.

 

[artee]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

I don't WANT to answer this, I'll only look like a smuck, but...

Ask yourself if the shot to 500 yds is doable. I think, yes.

With a 100 yd zero, and using a CONSTANT G1 BC of .125 (pretty well established as good for muzzle to 200yds, but a real stretch that it's not changing over the next 300 yards as you near Mach 1 and fall to .7 Mach or so/800 ish fps)
Come Ups 100 to:
200 4 Min
300 11 Min
400 22 Min
450 28 Min After 450 yds, my program won't allow continuation with this BC/velocity combo, BUT we can reasonably estimate:
500 36 Min (Based on progression per 50yds & It's a parabola)

Lets just call it 40 Min requred, 100 to 500yds.
Could he dial it in? Who cares. Use Mil holdover.
40 Min = 11.6 MILs

Can you see 11 or 12 mils on your scope? Sure. Assume it Mils at 10X (4-16 scope stated? 10 or 12X is a common Mil Cal power). Dial down to 5X or 4X. Your "apparent mils" on the scale now have twice or two and a half times their value. So, 5 Mils on the SCALE is now spanning 10 Mils at 5X or 12 1/2 Mils at 4X

Would it penetrate .08in (2 milimeter) sheet steel? Likely
The remaining Vel at 450 yds was 860 fps. Lets estimate (by progression per 25 yds again from the computed data) a 500 yd velocity of 810 fps. That velocity is RIGHT in the HEART of many .177 cal pellet rifles muzzle velocities. Will they, with the common 8 to 9 grain lead pellets pepetrate an old washing machine? You bet. (one piece of metal, NOT the entire washer!)

Was the shooting really at 500 yard and beyond? Maybe. I think I can hear a "noise" after every shot, that seems to be the same kind of noise. Assuming it's coming from the target and not an echo from another surface, Count fast, 1 to 10. (As fast about as you can say the numbers, will be about 1 sec to cound to 10. From before WWI thru WWII they USED to teach this, counting between hearing the CRACK as a round passes you till you hear the MUZZLE REPORT as a ranging method. 100 yards per count. So, 6 would be 600 yards. Time of flight for THIS round is 1 sec to 440 yards. I'm counting past "8" to the "noise", so that locates the sound source as about 240 yards or more away. Say, .4 sec TOF plus .6 sec for sound to get back to camara. I only ran the vid once and am not going back. The counts could be improved likely. This kinda supports the idea that he ment 500 feet, not 500 yards.

In summary: Yeah, It's possible. It doesn't take a $1000 scope, you just need to be able to see the target or an offset aimpoint. You'd have to be blind looking through cracked lenses NOT to see a 3+ MOA white plate. If an 8gn .177 pellet rifle at 10 yds has about the same velocity as the .17 17gn bullet at 500, yeah, it could penetrate MILD sheet steel. But I'm not even going to try to explain away the groups or windreading. Possible, I belive NOT PROBABLE--but have offered no support.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

According to QuickTarget, a 20-gr V-Max launched at 2375 fps (Hornady's claim) will lose SOS at about 375 yards. I have a hard time believing that that bullet will survive passing through the transonic region with its dignity intact.

@500 yards, velocity is down to 951 fps, FPE to 40 and would need 28 MOA elevation.
@800 yards, velocity is down to 751 fps, FPE to 25 and would need 72 MOA elevation. Total drop is 649 inches.

 

[VYD]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

"100 yards per count. So, 6 would be 600 yards."


That's too damn slow. My .22 airgun shoots 21 grain pellet under a second to 100.

300 yards per second would be much truer, assuming we are talking about a .30 caliber bullet.

 

[artee]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

VYD: You don't understand the "count". "1" is NOT "1 one thosand"--or 1 second as most often done. "1" is about .1 seconds. So you are counting from 1 to 10 over a time interval of One (1) second. As far as the method working, again, it used to be in the field manuals. I've often done it in the pits for grins to practice it. It works very well.

 

[DTracker23]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Nice Vid!! I have to say! I'v been contract dog shooting for 9 years now n use a .22 Mag n CCI JHP's, n i'v been drop'n em out to 300mtrs consistantly! Shot placement is very critical!! So i wouldn't chance a shot beyond that didtance with it tho, You want 2 kill em, not main em n have em suffer for weeks b4 dying. But the .22Mag round shoots like a rainbow compared to the .17's, n the wind drift as well....! That's why i run a Leopold 2.5 to 8 x 36 Mk4 with TMR Reticle, with a zero of 125, i hold 6mil high for 300, i live at 400ft above sea level so trajectory ain't that great! the 17 would be doing only a quarter of that..... if that! Good to see sum 1 finally video'n how much fun these little rounds are! The main reason i'm post'n a reply is cos of the wind drift associated with the .22 Mag, i'v learnt 2 read wind so finely, i can place shots with my .223 75gr Hornady A-Max's @ 3050fps into a 6 1/2in target @700mtrs, even up 2 18kph winds!! I ain't kid'n ya! Tho honestly i'm think'n of convert'n 2 17HMR after know'n the potential of the .22 Mag, n now see'n your Vid has seald the deal! It's the fun factor behind place'n such a little round so far out... that has vertually no energy that draw's you in to shoot'n that far! but i wouldn't go shoot'n anything bigger than a rabbit at 500ish with such low energy. My barrel is standard, n i'v run over 80,000 rounds thru it n i can still place shots in 2 a 3 1/2in x 3 1/2in target at 225mtrs easy! My stock is bedded tho. Very interesting penetration tho! My round takes 1 second to get 250mtrs, the .17's are run'n a lot quicker tho!

 

[Big Bo]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

I can`t take this anymore.
I`m out.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Nice first post. That has got to be the most fantastic bit of sarcasm I have ever seen or the most massive troll in the history of online forums. I smell horseshit.

 

[KIDGLOCK]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DTracker23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice Vid!! I have to say! I'v been contract dog shooting for 9 years now n use a .22 Mag n CCI JHP's, n i'v been drop'n em out to 300mtrs consistantly! Shot placement is very critical!! So i wouldn't chance a shot beyond that didtance with it tho, You want 2 kill em, not main em n have em suffer for weeks b4 dying. But the .22Mag round shoots like a rainbow compared to the .17's, n the wind drift as well....! That's why i run a Leopold 2.5 to 8 x 36 Mk4 with TMR Reticle, with a zero of 125, i hold 6mil high for 300, i live at 400ft above sea level so trajectory ain't that great! the 17 would be doing only a quarter of that..... if that! Good to see sum 1 finally video'n how much fun these little rounds are! The main reason i'm post'n a reply is cos of the wind drift associated with the .22 Mag, i'v learnt 2 read wind so finely, i can place shots with my .223 75gr Hornady A-Max's @ 3050fps into a 6 1/2in target @700mtrs, even up 2 18kph winds!! I ain't kid'n ya! Tho honestly i'm think'n of convert'n 2 17HMR after know'n the potential of the .22 Mag, n now see'n your Vid has seald the deal! It's the fun factor behind place'n such a little round so far out... that has vertually no energy that draw's you in to shoot'n that far! but i wouldn't go shoot'n anything bigger than a rabbit at 500ish with such low energy. My barrel is standard, n i'v run over 80,000 rounds thru it n i can still place shots in 2 a 3 1/2in x 3 1/2in target at 225mtrs easy! My stock is bedded tho. Very interesting penetration tho! My round takes 1 second to get 250mtrs, the .17's are run'n a lot quicker tho! </div></div>


And no , 2 years in 8th grade does not equal 16 years of education .

 

[VYD]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

"And no , 2 years in 8th grade does not equal 16 years of education."

ROFLMAO!!!

 

[cpt.creedmoor]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DTracker23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice Vid!! I have to say! I'v been contract dog shooting for 9 years now n use a .22 Mag n CCI JHP's, n i'v been drop'n em out to 300mtrs consistantly! Shot placement is very critical!! So i wouldn't chance a shot beyond that didtance with it tho, You want 2 kill em, not main em n have em suffer for weeks b4 dying. But the .22Mag round shoots like a rainbow compared to the .17's, n the wind drift as well....! That's why i run a Leopold 2.5 to 8 x 36 Mk4 with TMR Reticle, with a zero of 125, i hold 6mil high for 300, i live at 400ft above sea level so trajectory ain't that great! the 17 would be doing only a quarter of that..... if that! Good to see sum 1 finally video'n how much fun these little rounds are! The main reason i'm post'n a reply is cos of the wind drift associated with the .22 Mag, i'v learnt 2 read wind so finely, i can place shots with my .223 75gr Hornady A-Max's @ 3050fps into a 6 1/2in target @700mtrs, even up 2 18kph winds!! I ain't kid'n ya! Tho honestly i'm think'n of convert'n 2 17HMR after know'n the potential of the .22 Mag, n now see'n your Vid has seald the deal! It's the fun factor behind place'n such a little round so far out... that has vertually no energy that draw's you in to shoot'n that far! but i wouldn't go shoot'n anything bigger than a rabbit at 500ish with such low energy. My barrel is standard, n i'v run over 80,000 rounds thru it n i can still place shots in 2 a 3 1/2in x 3 1/2in target at 225mtrs easy! My stock is bedded tho. Very interesting penetration tho! My round takes 1 second to get 250mtrs, the .17's are run'n a lot quicker tho! </div></div>

 

[DTracker23]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

Is my 2 cents spent yet......??? hehehe, but it took me 2 goes @ yr 10 tho so...! but 10 years as a long range plinker for the ADF gotta mean's i must of brown nosed sum 1 sumwhere!? Love the reply's! Now you've got me interested in film'n & post'n the results on a flesh test @ 300 for you's? or would that be too much horse shit for 1 person to fit in both hands???

 

[Downzero]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DTracker23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is my 2 cents spent yet......??? hehehe, but it took me 2 goes @ yr 10 tho so...! but 10 years as a long range plinker for the ADF gotta mean's i must of brown nosed sum 1 sumwhere!? Love the reply's! Now you've got me interested in film'n & post'n the results on a flesh test @ 300 for you's? or would that be too much horse shit for 1 person to fit in both hands??? </div></div>

Please suck start your rifle.

 

[AK10mm]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DTracker23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is my 2 cents spent yet......??? hehehe, but it took me 2 goes @ yr 10 tho so...! but 10 years as a long range plinker for the ADF gotta mean's i must of brown nosed sum 1 sumwhere!? Love the reply's! Now you've got me interested in film'n & post'n the results on a flesh test @ 300 for you's? or would that be too much horse shit for 1 person to fit in both hands??? </div></div>

Not Another One !?!? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[cpt.creedmoor]

Re: .17 HMR at 500 and 800 yards (video) CZ 452

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DTracker23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is my 2 cents spent yet......??? hehehe, but it took me 2 goes @ yr 10 tho so...! but 10 years as a long range plinker for the ADF gotta mean's i must of brown nosed sum 1 sumwhere!? Love the reply's! Now you've got me interested in film'n & post'n the results on a flesh test @ 300 for you's? or would that be too much horse shit for 1 person to fit in both hands??? </div></div>

Not Another One !?!? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ </div></div>



yep fraid so..........winter break and all, be over soon enuff though