Range Report 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

[JS Stokely]

I'm looking for some real world numbers from 700 to 1000 yards. I want to confirm which bullet flies the best (drop and wind), as compared to the listed BC's. These will be shot out of a .308 24" 5R barrel. My rifle will shoot each, equally well so that shouldn't be a problem. Both will be shot at 2670fps. If you have tested these two side by side, post up.
Within the next two weeks, I'll load up both at the same velocity using all the same equipment. Then shoot them on the same afternoon. I may shoot groups (of the same bullet and powder) before switching and then clean as to not have different powder or types of jacket fouling in the bore. I'll do this at least twice.
I have a hunch that the Amax will hold its own. Any suggestions are welcome
.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

me thoughts are you would not be able to shoot the difference between them.....with the amax being a tad more consistant

 

[elkkid3]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

I agree with Boltripper. They shoot the same out of my rifle. That is shooting the same load, only thing I changed is 175 SMK to 178 AMAX. Haven't chronoed them yet.

 

[737shark]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

I hate to tell people but I love the 178 AMAX...Please dont buy them!!!

 

[JS Stokely]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

I know both will shoot very well, and true I've seen no difference in group size between the two on average.

I guess bottom line, I want to know which one drops the least and is least effected by the wind. I'm pulling for the AMAX.

I can't remember if they have the same POI @ 100 yards. If not I'll have to verify at 100 after shooting the first group at 1k.
I may throw some Nosler 175 CC's in also. Would love to add the new 178 Hornady BTHP, but Hornady told me they don't even know if they will be released as loose bullets for reloading.

 

[Blaster4]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

I started shooting the 178 AMAX in my .308 back in 2005...the main reason being at the time I could not find SMK's on the shelf at my local store...but I could always find the AMAX there...so I tried it...never looked back. Nobody was shooting them in matches back then...the SMK was king and rightfully so. But the AMAX was cheaper and I could get my hands on them and they shot just as goo or better.

I liked them so much I asked them for a job...hahahaha

Respectfully,

--KJ

P.S. Those new BTHP's will bring the .308 out of the cemetary. I had the .308 slated for mothball status but with this new Hornady Superformance .308 BTHP...I have to admit it's got potential to get used in next years matches.

 

[Rob01]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

What Kevin said but I started shooting them in 2006. Love the 178 AMAX. Found a more consistent BC due to no deformation of the tip with the polymer point. Very accurate being pushed by some Varget.

Also agree on the 178 Superformance. Getting a rifle rebarreled for use with it in future matches.

 

[Froggy1129]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

Rob01,

Any confirmation on Hornady releasing the 178 bthp bullet?

 

[Hunt]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

MidwayUSA offered them as part of their blemished bullet sale. That was a good deal for those that got them.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: froggy2229</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rob01,

Any confirmation on Hornady releasing the 178 bthp bullet? </div></div>

 

[Rob01]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

Froggy last I talked to them they weren't going to be released any time soon. Hopefully in the future as it's a great BC on that bullet.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nchandmade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking for some real world numbers from 700 to 1000 yards. I want to confirm which bullet flies the best (drop and wind), as compared to the listed BC's. These will be shot out of a .308 24" 5R barrel. My rifle will shoot each, equally well so that shouldn't be a problem. Both will be shot at 2670fps. If you have tested these two side by side, post up.
Within the next two weeks, I'll load up both at the same velocity using all the same equipment. Then shoot them on the same afternoon. I may shoot groups (of the same bullet and powder) before switching and then clean as to not have different powder or types of jacket fouling in the bore. I'll do this at least twice.
I have a hunch that the Amax will hold its own. Any suggestions are welcome
. </div></div>

I'm shooting both at 1000 yards on steel in the morning. I'll let you know what I find out. My loads are exactly the same (45.0 varget in Lapua brass) with the only difference being the bullets (175 SMK vs 178 AMAX). And I have the AMAXs seated out a bit longer based on my load development.

 

[bohem]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

The real BC of the 175 SMK is SLIGHTLY higher than the 178 Amax, but we're talking a couple points. .473 vs. .475 IIRC, essentially no difference.

What you will likely see is that the ballistic tip no the Amax is going to make the impacts more consistent. You can dial that extra click of drop or drift (it's even less than a click actually) but you can't account for the fliers that will show more often in the SMK's from the meplat variations unless you trim/point the bullets.

I've also found the consistency to be better from Hornady's offerings, I shoot only 1 type of Sierra bullet because I have a stash of them (120gr SSP in 7mm) and everything else I use is Hornady or Berger.

 

[Grump]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

I haven't checked with real-world firing data, but the Bryan Litz rocket science BCs on JBM show only .2 mil difference in elevation between my SMK and A-Max loads at 1,000 yards.

Since my ranging abilities are probably to only 25 yards beyond 800, and my ammo/rifle/shooter combo is about .3 mils, I'll consider them to be identical for most purposes. The cones of dispersion overlap by 1/3. The bottom of one shot probability cloud will be into the top of the other if I don't take that .2 mil correction.

 

[JS Stokely]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

If all goes well today, I plan on doing some 1000 yard shooting this afternoon. I did load some Nosler 175 CC's identical to my best 178 AMAX load and they shot pretty much the same POI as the AMAX. They didn't shoot quite as well, but still very good. I'm loading 43 grns of IMR-4895 with FGM Cases(I know they suck but they are free) and Fed 210 primers. From a 24" 5R the 178's are 2640fps. Didn't have time to chrono the Nosler. When I last checked, for whatever reason, the Noslers shot a little faster than SMK's with the same charge....like 30-40 fps faster.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">me thoughts are you would not be able to shoot the difference between them.....with the amax being a tad more consistant </div></div>

plus there cheaper

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

Well, finally got out and shot at 1000 yds (and 1200) with both 178 AMAXs and 175 SMKs. Unfortunately, not a straight apples to apples comparison as the bulk of my ammo was 175 SMK I loaded up for a 600 yd F-class that I never shot, so it was slightly lower speed than my normal 1K load (44.4 Varget). I also then loaded up an additional 25x 178 AMAX with 45.0.

The 175 SMK load at 44.4 Varget chronos at 2550 and the 178 AMAX with 45.0 chronos at 2600 out of my factory SPS-T. So not a straight comparison but close.

At 1000, I really could not tell a difference in accuracy. Because of the difference in MV, the 175SMKs needed 10.5 mils and the 178s needed 10.1. But both rounds really held the verticle at 1K really, really well. Moving to 1200, the AMAX really did MUCH better - but that's a bit to be expected because of the slightly faster starting velocity. But regardless, I was really happy with how well the 178 AMAX shot at 1200 yds.

the other really cool thing I found today is how well bullet flight and ballistic do to calculate a 1st shot - as long as you give it good data to start with. We had a friendly bet on a cold bore 1000 yd l-shot. I put in all the data and it spit out 10.5 and I fudged it to 10.6 because the computer has always been a tenth or two optimistic in the past. Bam - I misses it barely over the left shoulder. If I had trusted the computer - I would have hit it left edge dead center in elev and been $15 richer. F*&K! The biggest difference is since I've been using of station pressure off my Suunto watch - my actual dope has been dead on to what the computer says.

Anyway - it was really fun to get hits with a $500 SPS-T 20" at 1200yds with a cheapo Falcon Menace scope (which by the way the scope mils seem dead on to the dope). Good times!

 

[JS Stokely]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

I also got out yesterday afternoon. I don’t have my data book with me so I am going by what I remember. I loaded 178 Amax’s with 43 grains of IMR-4895, Fed GM cases and Fed 210 primers, for 2640 fps(taken from past loads, I didn’t have time to chrono yesterday) I also loaded up some 175 SMK 175’s with 44 grains of IMR- 4064. If I remember correctly they chrono out at 2670fps. Both of these loads will shoot to the same POI at 100. I also loaded some Nosler 175 CC’s with the same specs as the AMAX load.

I verified the 100 zero at my range, then headed out to another location for 1000 yards. We set up a 17.5” steel in front of a target stand that had a 5’x5’ cardboard backer. I put 8.5x11” paper on the cardboard for individual groups.

I had good numbers to 700 with this load, but nothing further. I did go back and tweak my chart to match what my actual numbers were. I’d like to say we got a first round hit, but we didn’t. I had a spotter in a safe location calling the shots. The wind was variable but up to 10 or 12 from my 8 o’clock. I think it was 4.5 to 5 minutes off. I can’t remember my vertical but it was about right.

Once zeroed, I was really impressed with the AMAX. The first two shots were within a 2” of each other. The next shot was 4” right of the earlier shot. The next shot was 8” left of the third shot. At this point I let the gun cool off. After 20 minutes I shot two more. The 5th shot was right in with the first two and the last shot hit the top of the plate about 4” above the center of the cluster. Total spread 10”.

The SMK 175’s were shot right at dark, really too late for a good comparison. I only had time for three shots. Not a good test at all but it is what it is. They shot high and to the right. I minute right and approximately two minutes high. The group size was pretty much the same as the 178’s, 10”. I could cover them with a sheet of notebook paper.

I hope to get back out this week to try the 175 Nosler CC’s and more of the SMK 175’s.

If anyone wants to see a photo pm me with an email and I’ll send it from my phone. Not sure if I can set up a photo-buc

 

[ZLBubba]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, finally got out and shot at 1000 yds (and 1200) with both 178 AMAXs and 175 SMKs. Unfortunately, not a straight apples to apples comparison as the bulk of my ammo was 175 SMK I loaded up for a 600 yd F-class that I never shot, so it was slightly lower speed than <span style="font-weight: bold">my normal 1K load (44.4 Varget). </span>I also then loaded up an additional 25x 178 AMAX with 45.0.

The 175 SMK load at 44.4 Varget chronos at 2550 and the 178 AMAX with 45.0 chronos at 2600 out of my factory SPS-T. So not a straight comparison but close.

At 1000, I really could not tell a difference in accuracy. Because of the difference in MV, the 175SMKs needed 10.5 mils and the 178s needed 10.1. But both rounds really held the verticle at 1K really, really well. Moving to 1200, the AMAX really did MUCH better - but that's a bit to be expected because of the slightly faster starting velocity. But regardless, I was really happy with how well the 178 AMAX shot at 1200 yds.

the other really cool thing I found today is how well bullet flight and ballistic do to calculate a 1st shot - as long as you give it good data to start with. We had a friendly bet on a cold bore 1000 yd l-shot. I put in all the data and it spit out 10.5 and I fudged it to 10.6 because the computer has always been a tenth or two optimistic in the past. Bam - I misses it barely over the left shoulder. If I had trusted the computer - I would have hit it left edge dead center in elev and been $15 richer. F*&K! The biggest difference is since I've been using of station pressure off my Suunto watch - my actual dope has been dead on to what the computer says.

Anyway - it was really fun to get hits with a $500 SPS-T 20" at 1200yds with a cheapo Falcon Menace scope (which by the way the scope mils seem dead on to the dope). Good times! </div></div>

That's my sweetheart load as well. I'm planning on trying the AMAXs when I run out of the SMKs that I have. Lots of good information in this thread.

 

[Mk4]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

Good information here.

I've switched from the 175 SMK to the 178 AMAX as well. Since I had Jeff @ CDI Precision to install bottom metal on my Win. 70, I'm now able to utiilize AICS mags. Right now I'm using the 5 rounders only. Am waiting on the ten round Morta Mags to play with.

With the buffer plate removed, I can now get up to 2.950 OAL with any load. 155 Scenars are doing extremely well at that length. For the 178's, I'm loading 45.5 Varget, BR2, Lapua brass and seating @(IIRC) 2.920. Velocity is right @ 2600 out of my 21" HBV.

 

[71firebird400]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

I have found that the 155 Scenars, in my rifle, need to be much longer than my magazine will allow-

Has anyone noted any difference in OAL between the 175 SMK's and 178 A-Max's? Do they both shoot well from magazine length?

Thanks

 

[JWV]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

I load both of them to the same OAL. But, 178 Amax+Varget=pure awesomeness.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 71firebird400</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have found that the 155 Scenars, in my rifle, need to be much longer than my magazine will allow-

Has anyone noted any difference in OAL between the 175 SMK's and 178 A-Max's? Do they both shoot well from magazine length?

Thanks </div></div>

I load the 175 SMKs to 2.815 and the 178 AMAx to 2.865, both after testing various seating depths. Even though the AMAX is loaded longer, the distance to the ogive is about the same - so that probably accounts for why the two different lenghts shot similar accuracy between the two bullets.

I still haven't decided which bullet I like better, they honestly shoot about the same in my gun. I haven't seen any distinct advantage to one or the other - they both do very well.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I load the 175 SMKs to 2.815 and the 178 AMAx to 2.865, both after testing various seating depths. Even though the AMAX is loaded longer, the distance to the ogive is about the same - so that probably accounts for why the two different lenghts shot similar accuracy between the two bullets.
</div></div>

That's about where I load both of these for my rifle as well.

 

[bohem]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I load the 175 SMKs to 2.815 and the 178 AMAx to 2.865, both after testing various seating depths. Even though the AMAX is loaded longer, the distance to the ogive is about the same - so that probably accounts for why the two different lenghts shot similar accuracy between the two bullets.
</div></div>

That's about where I load both of these for my rifle as well. </div></div>

I don't own a 308 and obviously my 30-06 measurements won't do any good. However, in relation to the lands, I have a pretty solid starting point for the Amax's.

I start 0.010" off the lands and load a ladder test for charge weight. I've shot every Amax between 22 and 30 cal save the 105's in 6mm. Every one of them shot exceedingly well from .010 - 0.025" off the lands. I've never managed to get them to jam or touch well at all.

Rarely do I work up a load for a rifle and feel the need to do a seating depth test on the bullets after the charge weight test. They almost universally shoot so well at a 0.010" jump that I don't bother.

VLD's are quite a different story.

 

[1802]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

Thinking of starting up a new load. Does anyone know how the AMAX do against cover compared to the SMKs?

example, auto doors, or windshields?

 

[mattja99]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

One thing I have not seen noted in the Amax threads is the tendancy for the tips to deform in a magazine. I tried them out of my AR10T, but after a few shots the movement of the rounds from recoil caused the tips to mushroom. After the first few rounds accuracy went to crap because of the mushroomed tips. SMK dont do that, the flat hollow point does not distort near as easy.

 

[Howie Feltersnatch]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattja99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I have not seen noted in the Amax threads is the tendancy for the tips to deform in a magazine. I tried them out of my AR10T, but after a few shots the movement of the rounds from recoil caused the tips to mushroom. After the first few rounds accuracy went to crap because of the mushroomed tips. SMK dont do that, the flat hollow point does not distort near as easy. </div></div>

That's interesting. Never thought of that. Did that happen routinely?

 

[Mk4]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattja99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I have not seen noted in the Amax threads is the tendancy for the tips to deform in a magazine. I tried them out of my AR10T, but after a few shots the movement of the rounds from recoil caused the tips to mushroom. After the first few rounds accuracy went to crap because of the mushroomed tips. SMK dont do that, the flat hollow point does not distort near as easy. </div></div>

Interesting...as I don't have that problem (and I've checked) with my DPMS SASS shooting 168 AMAX's from a Magpul magazine. Bullets are seated @ 2.800.

 

[Rob01]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

I have shot many thousands of AMAX bullets in different calibers in bolts and semi autos and never had any tips deform from recoil in magazines.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

Well I suspect I will try the amax next time I'm up for a reload...

Unfortunately that will be a while as I'm still stocked full of 308 ..

 

[HotrRod308]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

Where can you find the damn 178 amaxs? You guys must have bought them all.
Any suggestions where I can find some?

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have shot many thousands of AMAX bullets in different calibers in bolts and semi autos and never had any tips deform from recoil in magazines. </div></div>

Rob, what Mags do you use? I've noticed that in my AICS mags (w/buffer plate still in).... 2.865 is still occasionally getting the tips jammed on the feed ramp because the tip is dragging ever so slightly in the Mag and I see some tip deformation. I've since seated them a bit lower to 2.860 and they seem to feed fine.

 

[Rob01]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

That can happen because the feed ramp wasn't machined back enough when putting the DBM in the rifle. Nothing to do with recoil while in the mags.

I use AICS mags and my feed ramps have all been modified by GAP when the Badger DBMs were installed.

 

[mattja99]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

All I can do is report my experience with them. I observed the occurrence of deformed tips in the magazine as a result of movement from recoil, and checked a few more times to prove the problem (to myself anyway). I seated the bullets as long as I could to fit in the mag. Good news to hear others have had better luck.

 

[Grump]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattja99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All I can do is report my experience with them. I observed the occurrence of deformed tips in the magazine as a result of movement from recoil, and checked a few more times to prove the problem (to myself anyway). I seated the bullets as long as I could to fit in the mag. Good news to hear others have had better luck. </div></div>

What's your effect on-target, both in accuracy and vertical?

I worry a LOT more about the bullet heel than the meplat, but then again this is a game where people sharpen SMKs at the front end...

 

[mattja99]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

I bought 200 of the 178 Amax's and only loaded 100. I shot all of those at 100 and 200 yards. It was at 200 yards that I noticed my first few shots were very tight, then the group rapidly deteriorated. When I inspected the rounds in the magazine (after firing 10 or so) I noticed the tip deformation. The groups went opened up from 1.5" to 3 or 4" within 7 to 8 shots as I remember. After that, I stuck with the Sierra's. I still have the other box of 100, maybe I should run them through again, but I know what I will find and will probably just waste my RL 15 and time.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

I see the same degradation of accuracy if the tip of my 178s gets buggered up because it got jammed on the feed ramp. However, I'm not seeing ANY deformation in the mag from recoil. I've just gotten a few jammed on the feed lip because I seated them a bit long. That extra .005 I seated them with seems to have done the trick.

 

[Grump]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattja99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bought 200 of the 178 Amax's and only loaded 100. I shot all of those at 100 and 200 yards. It was at 200 yards that I noticed my first few shots were very tight, then the group rapidly deteriorated. When I inspected the rounds in the magazine (after firing 10 or so) I noticed the tip deformation. The groups went opened up from 1.5" to 3 or 4" within 7 to 8 shots as I remember. After that, I stuck with the Sierra's. I still have the other box of 100, maybe I should run them through again, but I know what I will find and will probably just waste my RL 15 and time. </div></div>
Can't argue with results like that. When the group opens up that much, I don't give a flying flip what the drop or vertical dispersions are. That's performance of $10-$15/100 .30 caliber bullets, AFAIC.

 

[Mk4]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

Okay, you guys got me to thinking.

I'll have to do some range testing next go-around in a 5rd, 10rd, and 20 rd mags. (bolt and auto).

 

[Rob01]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can't argue with results like that. When the group opens up that much, I don't give a flying flip what the drop or vertical dispersions are. That's performance of $10-$15/100 .30 caliber bullets, AFAIC.</div></div>

Actually you can and I know many people, including myself as I mentioned, who would argue that and who use the AMAX bullets in semi and bolt guns with magazines and shoot very acurrately for the whole magazine.

I travel around the country and shoot competitively and if I started losing accuracy after a few rounds from the magazine I sure wouldn't be using whatever bullet it was but I don't have any problems with the AMAX bullets.

 

[bohem]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

I've never had that happen out of my 260 upper with 120, 123 or 140 Amax's... that's news to me.

 

[Grump]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can't argue with results like that. When the group opens up that much, I don't give a flying flip what the drop or vertical dispersions are. That's performance of $10-$15/100 .30 caliber bullets, AFAIC.</div></div>

Actually you can and I know many people, including myself as I mentioned, who would argue that and who use the AMAX bullets in semi and bolt guns with magazines and shoot very acurrately for the whole magazine.

I travel around the country and shoot competitively and if I started losing accuracy after a few rounds from the magazine I sure wouldn't be using whatever bullet it was but I don't have any problems with the AMAX bullets. </div></div>

Ah, but Rob01, neither can I argue with YOUR results. Depending on where I get them, 178 A-Maxes are from $2 to $4 or $5 less per hundred than the 175 SMKs. My rifle can't tell the difference.

Another person's rifle *can* tell the difference, starting with round #6 or whatever down the magazine.

Your rifle *can't* tell the difference. Recoil doesn't bash your bullets' red tips/meplats/noses.

The mysteries of recoil dynamics are best explored with high-speed photography, but not worth the cost in this subject.

Betcha your magazine has a better/more effective internal ridge that engages the cartridges' shoulders below the feed position than the other guy's does. IME, that narrower area in the mag, next to the case necks and bullets, generally STILL lets the meplats hit the front of the magazine, BUT reduces the impact a whole heap.

Just thinkin'. Dangerous, I know... Not going to argue with either one of your opposing experience results!

 

[BCP]

Re: 178 AMAX vs 175 SMK

Eh I had better luck with the 178 amax than the 175 smk. One thing that really attracted me to the amax was the tip and I can get more consistent COAL with them than with SMK's.

Only reason I'm using 175 SMKs is because they were on sale and the amax's aren't available.

Everyone's rifle is different, use what works for you.