178gr ELD-X Load Data FINAL TESTING W/ VARGET 6-29

ChiefSillyHorse

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I am having trouble finding established load data for the 178gr ELD-X bullet for my .308

Anyone have a min and max load from Hornady in the 10th edition or elsewhere? I’m using 9th and nothing. I generally use Varget but I wouldn’t mind seeing 4064 as well even though i should get a higher FPS with the Varget.

In addition I wouldn’t mind seeing the minimum and maximum FPS if it’s not too much trouble.

Anyone else running Varget on the ELD-X’s? 43gr for me in that bullet range has generally shot 1/2 MOA for me in my McMillan Tac-308.

I normally shoot 175 SMK’s but I got a good deal on 600 projectiles from SH ToddMonty and I’ve heard good things.

Thanks in advance,

M. Wright
 
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I am having trouble finding established load data for the 178gr ELD-X bullet for my .308

Anyone have a min and max load from Hornady in the 10th edition or elsewhere? I’m using 9th and nothing. I generally use Varget but I wouldn’t mind seeing 4064 as well even though i should get a higher FPS with the Varget.

In addition I wouldn’t mind seeing the minimum and maximum FPS if it’s not too much trouble.

Anyone else running Varget on the ELD-X’s? 43gr for me in that bullet range has generally shot 1/2 MOA for me in my McMillan Tac-308.

I normally shoot 175 SMK’s but I got a good deal on 600 projectiles from SH ToddMonty and I’ve heard good things.

Thanks in advance,

M. Wright
i just started doing load workups with the 178 ELD _M's which i've heard are very similar to the ELD-X's. i'm using Varget with Lapua brass and federal 210m primers. 43 & 43.7 both showed very promising. great groupings and low SD numbers so i will go back and play with the charges from 42.9-43.1 and 43.6-43.8 and see how it shoots. 43 is a good place to start though..
 
I am having trouble finding established load data for the 178gr ELD-X bullet for my .308

Anyone have a min and max load from Hornady in the 10th edition or elsewhere? I’m using 9th and nothing. I generally use Varget but I wouldn’t mind seeing 4064 as well even though i should get a higher FPS with the Varget.

In addition I wouldn’t mind seeing the minimum and maximum FPS if it’s not too much trouble.

Anyone else running Varget on the ELD-X’s? 43gr for me in that bullet range has generally shot 1/2 MOA for me in my McMillan Tac-308.

I normally shoot 175 SMK’s but I got a good deal on 600 projectiles from SH ToddMonty and I’ve heard good things.

Thanks in advance,

M. Wright
Ummm...might I suggest the Hodgdon website that lists load data for those powders? They list data for 180's. Start there and work up.
 
Just starting to test 178 Hornady BTHP and 4064 in the Ruger Precision. Did a quick pressure/ladder and no issues at 42.5 at 2.820(mag fit) Going to go back and test 42-43.5 in .5 increments. No idea on velocity yet. Started at 40 and that's a low node, 40-41, appears that the 42-+ is another.
 
I am having trouble finding established load data for the 178gr ELD-X bullet for my .308

Anyone have a min and max load from Hornady in the 10th edition or elsewhere? I’m using 9th and nothing. I generally use Varget but I wouldn’t mind seeing 4064 as well even though i should get a higher FPS with the Varget.

In addition I wouldn’t mind seeing the minimum and maximum FPS if it’s not too much trouble.

Anyone else running Varget on the ELD-X’s? 43gr for me in that bullet range has generally shot 1/2 MOA for me in my McMillan Tac-308.

I normally shoot 175 SMK’s but I got a good deal on 600 projectiles from SH ToddMonty and I’ve heard good things.

Thanks in advance,

M. Wright
-
I have varget but Not shooting varget with the ELDX 178's . but using / ( 44.2 grn.) Reloader 15 / Win. brass (once fired) & neck sized only / worked-up a load for the factory rifle, Rem. 5R 308win. .
I most shot many thousands of 175 smks for years also but just working up a hunting load with the eldx's out this factory Rem.5R . These eldx's are there own and no way like a SMK 175 . they would not even start to tighten-up group decent @ 100 yard out this tube, till it bumped over 43.8 grn. of powder .
.
 
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Just starting to test 178 Hornady BTHP and 4064 in the Ruger Precision. Did a quick pressure/ladder and no issues at 42.5 at 2.820(mag fit) Going to go back and test 42-43.5 in .5 increments. No idea on velocity yet. Started at 40 and that's a low node, 40-41, appears that the 42-+ is another.

43-43.2 of IMR 4064 is where I saw my node.
 
I also got a good deal on 600 of these.. I have been very happy with performance of the 178ELD-X VS 175 SMK, 175 TMK and Berger 175 OTM TAC.
I am shooting these from and AIAE 26 1-12 twist in my AI-AE. Here is my load data.

Brass Lapua
Primer CCI-BR2
Powder Varget
Charge 42.9Gr
Depth 20 off the lands
COAL 2.88
AVG FPS 2701 FPS
ES 6 FPS over 5 rounds tested with Magneto Speed
Accuracy just under 1/2 moa and they shot well over 1000 yards.
 
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I also got a good deal on 600 of these.. I have been very happy with performance of the 178ELD-X VS 175 SMK, 175 TMK and Berger 175 OTM TAC.
I am shooting these from and AINA 26 1-12 twist in my AI-AE. Here is my load data.

Brass Lapua
Primer CCI-BR2
Powder Varget
Charge 42.9Gr
Depth 20 off the lands
COAL 2.88
AVG FPS 2701 FPS
ES 6 FPS over 5 rounds tested with Magneto Speed
Accuracy just under 1/2 moa and they shot well over 1000 yards.

That is almost exactly the load i just developed with the 178 ELD-M's aside from i'm using Fed210M primers. same charge weight and numbers as well. Shoots great!
 
Thanks everyone for the info. The hornady data has a extremely low charge for the max charge for Varget and I started getting pressure signs just above their max load. I'm also using Federal brass. Going to try some norma brass and also get a magneto speed or lad radar to see if my fps is above hornady's listed speeds, I've heard that hornady is notorious for posting them low.
 
I am loading mine with 43.5gr of Varget using R-P brass and cci LR-200 primers. OAL to ogive is 2.164. Out of a 26” barrel I am getting 2700fps.
 

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Any gas gun data? I've got an 18" Barrel lr308. I'm going out on Saturday with a couple ladder tests.

178gr eldx
Varget 41.0-44 (.5 increments)
Norma brass twice fired
Loaded mag length
43.5 started compressing, but I think im going to order one of those rcbs funnel kits, so I'm not crushing the powder. I really hate that sound.

178gr eldx
2000MR - testing high node I found from earlier ladder test 46.6-47.8 (.3 Increments)
Norma brass twice fired
Loaded mag length

I really like this pp2000mr powder, it throws really nice out of my chargemaster and you can fit so much powder in a 308 casing! I don't have much experience with it, but I hear it's temp sensitive. I'll be sure to record weather.
 
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Here are my results from Saturday...

56 deg F, sunny, 8-12 mph cross wind

Rifle: AR-10 / LR308 - 18" Criterion Hybrid Barrel

178gr ELD-X
Varget
Norma 2F
CCI BR-2
Loaded to Mag Length 2.340" (to ogive)

Charge Velocity (fps)
41.5 2365
42.0 2387
42.5 2404
43.0 2453
43.5 2446

No pressure signs, i'm going to pack in some more varget until i see some pressure signs. Seems like my velocity might be topping out at 43 grains with the 18 inch barrel. I'm going to load up some higher charges to find out for sure.

178gr ELD-X
PP2000MR
Norma 2F
CCI BR-2
Loaded to Mag Length 2.340" (to ogive)

Charge Velocity(fps)
46.6 2565
46.9 2576
47.2 2616
47.5 2618
47.8 2647

Looks like a node at 47.2-47.5. No pressure signs, i'm going to pack some more in and do another test. It looks like my velocity could increase yet so I loaded up another 9 rounds 47.8 to 50.2gr. I'm compressing the powder but it still was seating the round quite easily. If I can get my velocity up to 2800 fps, this bullet should do 1150m without destabilizing, according to my ballistics calculator (goal in this project is 1200m out of the 18" bbl, because somebody told me it can't be done)
 
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Here are my results from Saturday...

56 deg F, sunny, 8-12 mph cross wind

Rifle: AR-10 / LR308 - 18" Criterion Hybrid Barrel

178gr ELD-X
Varget
Norma 2F
CCI BR-2
Loaded to Mag Length 2.340" (to ogive)

Charge Velocity (fps)
41.5 2365
42.0 2387
42.5 2404
43.0 2453
43.5 2446

No pressure signs, i'm going to pack in some more varget until i see some pressure signs. Seems like my velocity might be topping out at 43 grains with the 18 inch barrel. I'm going to load up some higher charges to find out for sure.

178gr ELD-X
PP2000MR
Norma 2F
CCI BR-2
Loaded to Mag Length 2.340" (to ogive)

Charge Velocity(fps)
46.6 2565
46.9 2576
47.2 2616
47.5 2618
47.8 2647

Looks like a node at 47.2-47.5. No pressure signs, i'm going to pack some more in and do another test. It looks like my velocity could increase yet so I loaded up another 9 rounds 47.8 to 50.2gr. I'm compressing the powder but it still was seating the round quite easily. If I can get my velocity up to 2800 fps, this bullet should do 1150m without destabilizing, according to my ballistics calculator (goal in this project is 1200m out of the 18" bbl, because somebody told me it can't be done)
Nice! I’m getting a Labradar in the next few days so I hope to reach 2600 FPS with Varget. It should be possible with my 26” barrel. I’m going to have to pick some PP2000MR to test with, that’s an amazing amount of powder for a .308 cartridge! Let us know your further results as well as accuracy testing once an efficient velocity is achieved.
 
I love 4064 in the 308. when Varget was god to everyone, I picked this powder and never looked back. 43 grs, .020" off the lands, 20" barrel, average 2650 fps and shot 1/2 to 3/4 moa all day. pretty sad that I shot better with a factory 308 than I am with a custom 260.

still got the barrel and will be putting it on another action.
 
I got my Labradar in, I didn't have much time to shoot before duty but limited results show 42.3 gr Varget (hornady's max load) at 2700 fps in my 26" McMillan Tac-308 for the 178 ELD-X. That's a tad bit faster than Hornady's listed FPS at 2450. I'll be in Portland for the next week on vacation but when I get back there will be a more detailed report to follow.
 
I have loaded 178 ELD-X in LC brass over 41.7 gr IMR 4064 and it shoots well. I was loading that to approximate the xm118lr that I was shooting as a target load. I know, not exactly the same but close in POI out to hunting ranges. Recently I have been goofing around with PP 2000MR and have been getting some pretty good velocities with it. Temp stability seems ok too.
 
I am currently running 40.3 grains of Varget, with CCI BR2 primers, Lapua brass, and the 178 grain ELDX in a savage 10 rifle re-barreled by Phoenix Custom rifles. I get .25 moa to 500 yards running at 2400 fps. Varget is my favorite powder due to its insensitivity to extreme weather variations.
 
I was able to load up three rounds of varying charge weights from 40.0 to 42.0 (.5 increments) today to check initial accuracy and velocity in the 178 ELD-X's.
Velocity was measured using a Labradar. ES and SD are to be taken with a grain of salt due to the low amount of shots taken per charge weight.
Accuracy is measured edge to edge subtracting bullet diameter with a caliper.

Brass: Prime (Norma) 2.008 +- .005
Primer: Federal Gold Medal Match 210M
Bullet: Hornady ELD-X 178 Grain
Powder: Varget
OAL: 2.858 +- .001
Rifle: McMillan Tac-308 Schneider 11.25 Twist 26"
Scope: Bushnell DMRII 3.5-21x50

40.0 gr Varget
Average FPS 2528
SD 11.2
ES 20.34
Group Size .432

40.5 gr Varget
Average FPS 2560
SD 14.3
ES 26.96
Group Size .561

41.0 gr Varget
Average FPS 2606
SD 30.69
ES 54.77
Group Size .777

41.5 gr Varget
Average FPS 2622
SD 14.07
ES 26.89
Group Size 1.138

42.0 gr Varget
Average FPS 2666
SD 3.64
ES 7.26
Group Size .282

Promising results at 42.0 grains. Next step will be to load from 41.8 to 42.4 in .2 increments in 5 shot groups.
 

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Nice shooting Chief. Kinda hard to improve on that. Would be interesting to see if you can get the same results with a seating depth closer to SAMMI (2.800). My gun grouped best at 2.805 COAL.
 
Nice shooting Chief. Kinda hard to improve on that. Would be interesting to see if you can get the same results with a seating depth closer to SAMMI (2.800). My gun grouped best at 2.805 COAL.

Not a ton of room to play with depth close to 2.80 due to this almost being a compressed load at 42+, but I think you could make it work. I'm yet to still work up a load for the 178's in my Seekins SP10 but once I do I'll have to abide by the magazine restrictions of it. I'll be sure to post my findings!
 
Just finished and AR10 build last week. Going to try this bullet in the new gun tomorrow. To your point I probably should back down my 43.3 grain load for this bullet. It is slightly compressed.
 
Just finished and AR10 build last week. Going to try this bullet in the new gun tomorrow. To your point I probably should back down my 43.3 grain load for this bullet. It is slightly compressed.

This bullet is unalike any other I've ever used. I tried starting out around 43, my usual for 175 grain bullets and I was getting pressure signs. The length of this bullet changes the pressure dynamics quite a bit. Thats why I started low and began working back up. Not sure your barrel length but I would back down considerably from that. I'll try to work a load for my 16" AR10 within the next few weeks.
 
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I've had no issues or pressure signs at 43.3. My bolt gun is a Remington 700 R5 with a 24" barrel. I get 2650 fps. Shoots fine as well out of my son's SPS 700 and a friends SCAR. I could be at the high end for safe for these rifles. Hard to say. The one thing I have noticed is that you do not need to push it too hard to get great performance. I've shot it out to 1177 yards. Perfect splash on steel at that distance when I'm lucky enough to make a hit!
 
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I've had no issues or pressure signs at 43.3. My bolt gun is a Remington 700 R5 with a 24" barrel. I get 2650 fps. Shoots fine as well out of my son's SPS 700 and a friends SCAR. I could be at the high end for safe for these rifles. Hard to say. The one thing I have noticed is that you do not need to push it too hard to get great performance. I've shot it out to 1177 yards. Perfect splash on steel at that distance when I'm lucky enough to make a hit!
I’m running that same load in Lapua brass. Took it out to 1k last weekend. I was impressed w the accuracy.
 
Ao looking at the Berger Twist Rate Calculator, it says the ELD-M/X will be unstable out of a 1-12” twisted barrel, lowering BC.

Has any one here been able to confirm unstability to distance?
 
I've had no issues or pressure signs at 43.3. My bolt gun is a Remington 700 R5 with a 24" barrel. I get 2650 fps. Shoots fine as well out of my son's SPS 700 and a friends SCAR. I could be at the high end for safe for these rifles. Hard to say. The one thing I have noticed is that you do not need to push it too hard to get great performance. I've shot it out to 1177 yards. Perfect splash on steel at that distance when I'm lucky enough to make a hit!

It's funny how each gun is so different. I know that my rifle has a tight chamber, not sure if that will have a huge change for pressure. However at 42.0 grains of Varget I'm getting 2666 fps on average. I'm also running a 26" barrel though.
 
I am currently running 40.3 grains of Varget, with CCI BR2 primers, Lapua brass, and the 178 grain ELDX in a savage 10 rifle re-barreled by Phoenix Custom rifles. I get .25 moa to 500 yards running at 2400 fps. Varget is my favorite powder due to its insensitivity to extreme weather variations.

Be interested to know the end result of their services. Considering them for a re-barrel on my 300RUM. They did a great job for a brake on my 7mag FYI?
 
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I have been running 40.7 gr of AR-COMP in Lapua Palma brass with the 178 AMAX at 2.885" and 2650 fps.
It is listed as the max charge by Alliant but is fairly mild in my rifle at the length I'm running it, I'm on my fourth loading only neck sizing without hard bolt lift.
I got a bit more velocity with Varget but not as accurate.
 
I was finally able to get some rounds loaded in continuance from the work up with Varget I posted a few weeks back. Last time I determined a node around 42.0 grains of Varget when I was loading three rounds in .5gr increments.

Today I was able to load up 5 rounds each of charge weights from 41.8 to 42.4 (.2 increments) today to further test accuracy and velocity in the 178 ELD-X's.
Velocity was measured using a Labradar. ES and SD are to be taken with a grain of salt due to the low amount of shots taken per charge weight.
Accuracy is measured edge to edge subtracting bullet diameter with a caliper.

Also two groups in I got caught in a huge thunderstorm, causing me to rush my shots before, and be wet and perturbed on the two groups afterwards. I also shoot extremely good 4 shot groups, and usually tend to shoot what I believe to be a flyer out of the 5 shots I take. Go figure... Because of such I measure the group without the flyer and with.

Brass: Prime (Norma) 2.008 +- .005 2x Fired
Primer: Federal Gold Medal Match 210M
Bullet: Hornady ELD-X 178 Grain
Powder: Varget
OAL: 2.858 +- .002
Rifle: McMillan Tac-308 Schneider 11.00 Twist 26"
Scope: Bushnell DMRII 3.5-21x50
Temp: 75 F
Altitude 1321ft
Humidity 82.8 %

41.8 gr Varget
Average FPS 2624
SD 10.15
ES 24.09
Group Size .442 w/o flyer
.892 w/ flyer

42.0 gr Varget
Average FPS 2629
SD 6.72
ES 18.44
Group Size .342 w/o flyer
.842 w/ flyer

42.2 gr Varget
Average FPS Did not register right after I got soaked and labradar wasn't set up precisely.
SD
ES
Group Size .472 no flyers

42.4 gr Varget
Average FPS 2664
SD 17.88
ES 44.12
Group Size .217 w/o flyer
.592 w/ flyer

Also an astounding group from factory Hornady 178gr ELD-X Precision Hunter
Average FPS 2644
SD 9.76
ES 23.48
Group Size .092 w/o flyer
.592 w/ flyer

Decent groups with each load, starting to get a stiff bolt at 42.4 but nothing major. Due to the storms interrupting my shoot, I'll likely load 10 rounds of 42.0, 10 rounds of 42.2, and 10 rounds of 42.4 and shoot them again in 5 round increments to get a more precise measurement of overall accuracy. I'm pretty happy with the results considering I'm over 2600fps and the round seems to be capable of .5 MOA or less dependent on if I do my part.
 

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I have 30 rounds loaded up to shoot in 5 round groups in the morning if the weather holds here in East Tn. x10 @ 42.0, x10 @ 42.4, and x10 @ 42.4. I'll post results in the next few days. Hopefully these 30 rounds will give me my final determination of charge weight.

10 rounds of each charge weight should give me a better idea of SD as well as ES, so those results will be more reliable.
 
So .092 is the mark to beat. Guess I've got to dust off the R5 milspec and get serious. Again nice shooting Chief!

Hahaha thanks! You’re allowed a flyer! As is obvious in almost all of my 5 shot groups. I didn’t shoot as well today but did get some solid info in regards to velocity, SD, and ES. Once I get all the data crunched I’ll share it all!
 
I was finally able to finish the load testing in continuance from the work up with Varget I posted a few weeks back. The time before last I determined a node around 42.0 grains of Varget when I was loading three rounds in .5gr increments. I then loaded 5 shots each in increments of 41.8, 42.0, 42.2, and 42.4. There were promising results in all of the groups from 42.0-42.4.

I was able to load up 10 rounds each of charge weights from 42.0 to 42.4 (.2 increments) today to further test accuracy and velocity in the 178 ELD-X's. I shot two 5 shot groups with each charge weight and shot them in the order 42.0, 42.2, 42.4, 42.0, 42.2, 42.4.

Velocity was measured using a Labradar. For this ES and SD I will use the average from each 5 shots. I also have provided an overall FPS, ES and SD from each group of shots of the listed charge weights I've shot over the last few months to give a better idea.
Accuracy is measured edge to edge subtracting bullet diameter with a caliper.

I hadn't cleaned my Mcmillan in quite awhile and decided to on a whim, I believe that to partially be why all the groups opened up a tad, or I also could have just sucked on the day I shot these groups. Either way, all of the groups were a bit larger than what I would normally like, but an average of all of the data from start to finish should still leave me with enough solid data to come to a decision.

Brass: Prime (Norma) 2.008 +- .005 1x Fired
Primer: Federal Gold Medal Match 210M
Bullet: Hornady ELD-X 178 Grain
Powder: Varget
OAL: 2.858 +- .002
Rifle: McMillan Tac-308 Schneider 11.00 Twist 26"
Scope: Bushnell DMRII 3.5-21x50
Temp: 83.7 F
Altitude 1312ft
Humidity 73.1 %


42.0 gr Varget 1st 5 shots
Average FPS 2646
SD 8.92
ES 21.72
Group Size .612

42.0 gr Varget 2nd 5 shots
Average FPS 2643
SD 10.39
ES 26.98
Group Size .400 w/o flyer
.642 w/ flyer

42.2 gr Varget 1st 5 shots
Average FPS 2658
SD 13.45
ES 32.31
Group Size .982

42.2 gr Varget 2nd 5 shots
Average FPS 2658
SD 12.15
ES 30.59
Group Size .692

42.4 gr Varget 1st 5 shots
Average FPS 2671
SD 9.07
ES 22.27
Group Size 1.192

42.4 gr Varget 2nd 5 shots
Average FPS 2671
SD 7.95
ES 18.14
Group Size 1.042

Several things of emphasis to note. I believe the results from the Labradar to be fairly consistent being as average FPS, ES, and SD are all similar in regards to charge weight even though the two separate groups (of same charge weight) weren't shot consecutively.

Group size was also relatively similar between each group of same charge weight, meaning I was shooting fairly consistent. If you look at the photos, even the way the groups look bear some similarity. Not sure if thats just coincidence or what...

Now onto cumulative data:

42.0gr Varget (4 data sets)
Overall FPS: 2645
Overall SD: 7.41
Overall ES: 18.6
Overall Average Group Size: .409 w/o called flyers
Overall Impressions: Although I do have an extra data set in this charge weight due to the initial testing from 40.0-42.0, this was my most stable load in terms of lowest SD, ES, and group size overall. Although the other charge weights did turn out smaller groups, overall throughout the course of testing this was the most efficient overall.

42.2gr Varget (3 data sets, only 2 usable data sets due to Labradar not set up properly after storm)
Overall FPS: 2658
Overall SD: 11.34
Overall ES: 31
Overall Group Size: .837 w/o called flyers
Overall Impressions: Turned out two out of three respectable groups of .472 and .692. I wish I had usable data from the group that I shot right after it stormed. I think this charge weight definitely deserves to be shot more at a later time. Respectable SD, ES is a bit high but not outrageous.

42.4gr Varget (3 data sets)
Overall FPS: 2668
Overall SD: 11.63
Overall ES: 28.21
Overall Group Size: .817 w/o called flyers
Overall Impressions: Turned out a .217 group for the best overall without a called flyer, however the 2nd and 3rd group shot were each over an inch. SD and ES were also the highest overall, however without the 1st data set and only using the 2nd and 3rd they are quite low (under 10SD and 20ES respectively). However the groups shot with 2nd and 3rd data set are also the ones that shot over an inch. Primers are also starting to flatten a tad and I experienced an extremely minor stiff bolt in this charge weight.

SO CAN I CALL IT A DEFINITE YES FOR 42.0 BASED OFF OF MY OBSERVATIONS???

Not quite sure yet. I've got 500 rounds of 178 ELD-X and all the components to load it. I think if I were to do so I would have no regrets. I still feel that 42.2 should be tested a bit more. Maybe load up 20 rounds of 42.0 and 20 rounds of 42.2 and go from there. Or maybe just split the difference at 42.1 and call it a day? My luck is that 42.1 would shoot awful! What do you guys think I should do? I haven't even tackled the issue of OAL and know that adjusting that may change things dramatically. I guess basically I want a round that will shoot .5 or better, over 2600 FPS, high .BC, and that doesn't exhibit pressure signs. I guess I pretty much have that with 42.0. Yet I'm kind a perfectionist. Help me decide!

The thing with load testing is that there are so many variables. And as shooters we can't hope to eradicate or eliminate them all while testing. Which is why a large amount of data averaged out should be a good option to give reliable data. Unfortunately for me that large set of data cost a lot of money in materials as well as a lot of time. I really appreciate everyone that has looked at and commented on this post. Being fairly new at this means that I'm open to any and all advice in the future, as I plan on working up loads in the future for my Seekins SP10 16" .308 as well as a Seekins Havak in 6.5CM that I should be getting in the next few months. Being in LE, I may be off the grid at times but will try and post when I can.

Thanks Again,

M. Wright
 

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what he say's above post . My groups all looked like that .
using ( 11-24 twist / 24" barrel ) . the ELDx's grouped like your Pic's till I poured more juice to them an bumped over 43 grains of powder .
.
 
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