1896 Swedish Mauser question

[Stephen Bachiler]

My 1896 Swede has worn leade area (maybe not anymore than normal for an old rifle)....and as I get ready to put together my first reloads i figured i would ask about "jump" to the lands and seating. This rifle is just for "fun" "casual" paper punching using the irons. I attempted to use the Hornady Heaspace gauge but the 160gr RN Hornadys exit the modified case entirely before getting to the lands. I am not sure this matters but i thought I would ask any of you with extensive m96 experience how you handle this issue as I am sure it is common. My thoughts are just seat the bullet on the long side and let it jump and most likely not an issue. The barrel looks good (scoped) for a 120 year old rifle (no obvious issues witnessed).

Any thoughts would be appreciated

 

[RTH1800]

Don’t know that there is much else you can do.
They still seem to shoot well.

 

[Stephen Bachiler]

Don’t know that there is much else you can do.
They still seem to shoot well.

Thank you for replying. So what you are saying...is...shouldn't be a problem...just load carefully and fire away!!

 

[James40004]

Just load to what will fit in magazine. Some how it still shoots berger vlds very, very well. Shouldn't with the mile jump but does

 

[Stephen Bachiler]

Thanks everyone for replying..i went ahead a loaded 10 each of the Hornady 160gr RN with h4350 & IMR 4064 (Rem 9 1/2 primers) at book start weight. Used 3.0 for COL. Everything went well at the range. Rifle functioned flawlessly & primers looked good.

 

[AZgeek]

I've built my own version of a Swede carbine. Two things I know for sure regarding load develop. It does not like powers faster then IMR 4350 or light bullets in the 100 to 123 grain range. Testing 129 to 140gr bullets now. The 135 Atips show promise in the 18" barrel.

 

[ZG47A]

The throat does not have rifling. The tapered progression into the rifling is called the leade. Leade erosion is much more of an issue with boat-tail projectiles, especially short-shank target bullets. Use of round-nose bullets is a standard method for extending the use of a rifle barrel with significant leade erosion. I suggest that you shoot your rifle with those 160 grain round-nose bullets and see how it works.
N.B. Gunsmiths do not always correct a customer’s incorrect usage of firearms terminology for the same reason that I, as a carpenter, do not always correct a customer’s incorrect description of various items and processes. Time is money.

 

[Haney]

The throat does not have rifling. The tapered progression into the rifling is called the leade. Leade erosion is much more of an issue with boat-tail projectiles, especially short-shank target bullets. Use of round-nose bullets is a standard method for extending the use of a rifle barrel with significant leade erosion. I suggest that you shoot your rifle with those 160 grain round-nose bullets and see how it works.
N.B. Gunsmiths do not always correct a customer’s incorrect usage of firearms terminology for the same reason that I, as a carpenter, do not always correct a customer’s incorrect description of various items and processes. Time is money.

 

[Stephen Bachiler]

The throat does not have rifling. The tapered progression into the rifling is called the leade. Leade erosion is much more of an issue with boat-tail projectiles, especially short-shank target bullets. Use of round-nose bullets is a standard method for extending the use of a rifle barrel with significant leade erosion. I suggest that you shoot your rifle with those 160 grain round-nose bullets and see how it works.
N.B. Gunsmiths do not always correct a customer’s incorrect usage of firearms terminology for the same reason that I, as a carpenter, do not always correct a customer’s incorrect description of various items and processes. Time is money.

Thank you for the correction...being corrected is a great way to learn.

 

[ZG47A]

@Stephen Bachiler You hereby gain some of the benefit from me being corrected over the years, by some very good gunsmiths and highly competent shooters. Any person who does not pass on what they have discovered via trial, error and asking questions; should pick up a dictionary and seek the meaning of scholarship. I turned 60 last year and will never stop learning. Have a good week.

 

[tomme boy]

Do not load the bullets out on a 6.5swede. You are looking at blowing up the rifle if you do. Make sure to use a crimp also. These are the guns that blow up from having a worn throat. The bullets get into the rifling then stop from having too much expansion of gas too soon and the powder loses pressure as the expansion increases. The bullet stops in the bore then the expansion now increases at a extremally fast rate and now the bullet is an obstruction. This is well documented in the 6.5 swede. Your safest bet is to put the gun back in the safe

 

[Stephen Bachiler]

Do not load the bullets out on a 6.5swede. You are looking at blowing up the rifle if you do. Make sure to use a crimp also. These are the guns that blow up from having a worn throat. The bullets get into the rifling then stop from having too much expansion of gas too soon and the powder loses pressure as the expansion increases. The bullet stops in the bore then the expansion now increases at a extremally fast rate and now the bullet is an obstruction. This is well documented in the 6.5 swede. Your safest bet is to put the gun back in the safe

I don't like the sound of that 1 bit. But it seems like many many shooters fire their old m96s using low pressure load outs.

I loaded my most recent at book COL and starting grain weights with IMR 4064 and H4350. Everything went well...so signs of any issues.

 

[b6graham]

Do not load the bullets out on a 6.5swede. You are looking at blowing up the rifle if you do. Make sure to use a crimp also. These are the guns that blow up from having a worn throat. The bullets get into the rifling then stop from having too much expansion of gas too soon and the powder loses pressure as the expansion increases. The bullet stops in the bore then the expansion now increases at a extremally fast rate and now the bullet is an obstruction. This is well documented in the 6.5 swede. Your safest bet is to put the gun back in the safe

wut are you talking about

 

[Stephen Bachiler]

Do not load the bullets out on a 6.5swede. You are looking at blowing up the rifle if you do. Make sure to use a crimp also. These are the guns that blow up from having a worn throat. The bullets get into the rifling then stop from having too much expansion of gas too soon and the powder loses pressure as the expansion increases. The bullet stops in the bore then the expansion now increases at a extremally fast rate and now the bullet is an obstruction. This is well documented in the 6.5 swede. Your safest bet is to put the gun back in the safe

I actually found the article that talks about "SEE" and the issue I think you are referencing...interesting stuff

 

[MK20]

Please post the link then. I would like to see it.

 

[Stephen Bachiler]

Please post the link then. I would like to see it.

It is the 10th post down

m/41b Swede Sniper Catastrophic Failure

The comments below are in the words of the owner. He had just purchased this rifle. This happened in the last few days (March 20, 2011). Let us accept as fact these separate factors. Let us not speculate outside these known factors. Let us work within these parameters to consider the cause...

castboolits.gunloads.com

 

[AZgeek]

It's beyond my comprehension that someone would use light bullets with undercharged, slow powder. Reloading manuals give you good info on what powders to use with what bullet weights/Jacket or cast type. I suppose this article is a good reminder of what not to do - even for experienced reloaders.

I always used faster powders for the 100, 107 and 108gr bullets in 6.5x55 - mostly H335 up to Varget. Always kept the starting charge as close to the middle of the range as possible. Difficult to find load data for these light bullets. Experience, common sense and research is required! No idea how much of a factor a warn throat contributes to an SEE condition. I'll leave that one alone.

 

[ZG47A]

Common sense should always prevail. As someone who ran a Club Range Complex for fourteen years, I assert that those words can never be reiterated too often.

1. Set the overall cartridge length so that every round you load is either at or just under the stated length in the manual. Bullet ogives can vary so a good thing to do is, seat ten to twenty (10-20) bullets in empty cases, confirm that all are OK—both for recommended length and reliable feeding—pull the bullets and then prime, load charge and seat bullet as normal. I always remove the striker mechanism before carrying out such checks OR setting up a resizing die.
2. My understanding, in regard to appropriate propellant choice, is based on general recommended practice, an analysis of propellant recommendations that was published by John Barsness and my own experience.

2. (a) Where a bullet maker lists a series loads for a particular bullet, you should start with a propellant in the middle of the recommended range for that bullet.

2. (b) Where a bullet maker such as Hornady provides an aggregate list of recommended propellant charges for three (3) bullets of identical weight BUT varying profiles:

The top third of the list—containing the fastest burning propellants—should be taken as the recommendation for the bullet with the shortest shank, typically a boat-tail spitzer.
The middle third should be taken as the recommendation for the bullet in the middle, typically a flat-base spitzer.
The bottom third should be taken as the recommendation for the last bullet, typically either a round-nose bullet or a semi-pointed bullet.

Engage brain, be safe and have fun.

 

[Stephen Bachiler]

Not that these address the issue being discussed...nonetheless i thought I would post them...here is pre and post cleaning....

 

[Haney]

Common sense should always prevail. As someone who ran a Club Range Complex for fourteen years, I assert that those words can never be reiterated too often.

1. Set the overall cartridge length so that every round you load is either at or just under the stated length in the manual. Bullet ogives can vary so a good thing to do is, seat ten to twenty (10-20) bullets in empty cases, confirm that all are OK—both for recommended length and reliable feeding—pull the bullets and then prime, load charge and seat bullet as normal. I always remove the striker mechanism before carrying out such checks OR setting up a resizing die.
2. My understanding, in regard to appropriate propellant choice, is based on general recommended practice, an analysis of propellant recommendations that was published by John Barsness and my own experience.

2. (a) Where a bullet maker lists a series loads for a particular bullet, you should start with a propellant in the middle of the recommended range for that bullet.

2. (b) Where a bullet maker such as Hornady provides an aggregate list of recommended propellant charges for three (3) bullets of identical weight BUT varying profiles:

The top third of the list—containing the fastest burning propellants—should be taken as the recommendation for the bullet with the shortest shank, typically a boat-tail spitzer.
The middle third should be taken as the recommendation for the bullet in the middle, typically a flat-base spitzer.
The bottom third should be taken as the recommendation for the last bullet, typically either a round-nose bullet or a semi-pointed bullet.

Engage brain, be safe and have fun.

Have you ever loaded for a Swede ? Familiar with the Chamber/freebore ?

 

[ZG47A]

Have you ever loaded for a Swede ? Familiar with the Chamber/freebore ?

I got into reloading after selling my Husqvarna Model 38 and buying a brand Winchester Model 70. I deliberately sidestepped the issue of loading projectiles further out, given that one person has already gone somewhat ‘off point’. If you wish to post images of 6.5x55 SE military chamber specifications and inform us of your experiences with Swedish military bolt-action rifles, go for it.
I suggest however, that you moderate your vocabulary and manner. Have a good week.

 

[AZgeek]

I just ordered some Berger 156gr EOL. I'm curious about this as it seems the larger, longer bullets I try, the more accurate the results. Its my understanding that the original chamberings is in fact designed for the 156/160 round nose flat base. I've never done a chamber casting before but willing to try on my old Carl Gustov barrel just as a point of reference for this discussion.

 

[MK20]

Everything you would ever want to know, minus the bullshit of "steel clad"

The Swedish Military Ammunition Site

 

[Stephen Bachiler]

Anyone with some experience with old m96 barrels care to comment on the pics I posted of my barrel? Does it look decent?

 

[USMCsean]

Swedish 6.5 ammo was never loaded with corrosive primers.

 

[Rob01]

Posts were deleted due to people not being able to be civil to each other. If it happens again the bans will start.

 

[Random Guy]

I think their is some confusion about this topic that relates to the old M96 (1896) 'small ring' Mauser actions, versus later "stronger commercial" actions in 6.5x55. The experts on 6.5x55mm ammo is presumably Lapua, and it is worth noting that Lapua offers some of their 6.5x55mm ammo with the exact same bullet - but at two different velocity/pressure specs, for example:

Lapua 120 grain SCENAR load at modest velocity of 830 m/s, or 2723 fps.

6.5×55 Swedish / 7.8 g (120 gr) Scenar-L

The 6.5×55 SE is one of the most popular all-around ammo in the world for both target shooters and hunters. Lapua’s 6.5×55 SE cartridge is especially popular in the Scandinavian countries…

www.lapua.com

Lapua 120 grain SCENAR load at high/full velocity of 920 m/s, or 3018 fps.

6.5×55 Swedish / 7.8 g (120 gr) Scenar-L

The 6.5×55 SE is one of the most popular all-around ammo in the world for both target shooters and hunters. Lapua’s 6.5×55 SE cartridge is especially popular in the Scandinavian countries…

www.lapua.com

Lapua 123 grain SCENAR-L load at modest velocity of 830 m/s, or 2723 fps.

6.5×55 Swedish / 8.0 g (123 gr) Scenar

Especially popular in the Scandinavian countries, including long-range field shooting discipline, Lapua’s 6.5×55 SE cartridge delivers a flatter trajectory and excellent ballistics.

www.lapua.com

Lapua 123 grain SCENAR-L load at high/full velocity of 920 m/s, or 3015 fps.

6.5×55 Swedish / 8.0 g (123 gr) Scenar

The 6.5×55 SE is one of the most popular all-around ammo in the world for both target shooters and hunters. Lapua’s 6.5×55 SE cartridge is especially popular in the Scandinavian countries…

www.lapua.com

The best explanation for this is found in the Speer Reloading manual #14, which divides their 6.5x55 loads into two separate sections (see attached 3 pages from that manual and note the underlined sections - this makes more sense to me that the so-called "SEE" theory):
1. 'Military Actions' (aka the old Swedish M96 'small ring' military rifles made from 1896 until I think 1944).
2. 'Strong Commercial Actions' (aka basically any decent commercial rifle made in the post-WWII era with modern metallurgy and strong actions).

My takeaway from old Swedish M1896 actions that were made basically a century ago, and the stories about some that have self-destructed, is the following: Don't shoot a bunch of full-mojo/high pressure modern ammo out of those often century old small-ring Mausers. I don't worry about the bullet and overall length, or the fact that they have long throats. As for my Full-mojo/full-power 120 grain Lapua ammo as seen below left? That will only be used in that modern Tikka Sporter rifle as seen in the top of the bottom picture - and it will not be shot out of my M41B (made in 1900), or the CG-63 (made in 1920). I think the Speer manual offers legitimate advice, and I think Lapua offers their most popular 6.5x55 load in two flavors to accommodate those European (and US) shooters who are still using those old M96 'small ring' Mauser actions.

My 2cts.

 

[RTH1800]

The Swedish rifles and the 6.5x55 cartridge have enjoyed a fine reputation for many years in the Midwest. I have never heard of a blowup.

 

[Stephen Bachiler]

I think their is some confusion about this topic that relates to the old M96 (1896) 'small ring' Mauser actions, versus later "stronger commercial" actions in 6.5x55. The experts on 6.5x55mm ammo is presumably Lapua, and it is worth noting that Lapua offers some of their 6.5x55mm ammo with the exact same bullet - but at two different velocity/pressure specs, for example:

Lapua 120 grain SCENAR load at modest velocity of 830 m/s, or 2723 fps.

6.5×55 Swedish / 7.8 g (120 gr) Scenar-L

The 6.5×55 SE is one of the most popular all-around ammo in the world for both target shooters and hunters. Lapua’s 6.5×55 SE cartridge is especially popular in the Scandinavian countries…

www.lapua.com

Lapua 120 grain SCENAR load at high/full velocity of 920 m/s, or 3018 fps.

6.5×55 Swedish / 7.8 g (120 gr) Scenar-L

The 6.5×55 SE is one of the most popular all-around ammo in the world for both target shooters and hunters. Lapua’s 6.5×55 SE cartridge is especially popular in the Scandinavian countries…

www.lapua.com

Lapua 123 grain SCENAR-L load at modest velocity of 830 m/s, or 2723 fps.

6.5×55 Swedish / 8.0 g (123 gr) Scenar

Especially popular in the Scandinavian countries, including long-range field shooting discipline, Lapua’s 6.5×55 SE cartridge delivers a flatter trajectory and excellent ballistics.

www.lapua.com

Lapua 123 grain SCENAR-L load at high/full velocity of 920 m/s, or 3015 fps.

6.5×55 Swedish / 8.0 g (123 gr) Scenar

The 6.5×55 SE is one of the most popular all-around ammo in the world for both target shooters and hunters. Lapua’s 6.5×55 SE cartridge is especially popular in the Scandinavian countries…

www.lapua.com

The best explanation for this is found in the Speer Reloading manual #14, which divides their 6.5x55 loads into two separate sections (see attached 3 pages from that manual and note the underlined sections - this makes more sense to me that the so-called "SEE" theory):
1. 'Military Actions' (aka the old Swedish M96 'small ring' military rifles made from 1896 until I think 1944).
2. 'Strong Commercial Actions' (aka basically any decent commercial rifle made in the post-WWII era with modern metallurgy and strong actions).

My takeaway from old Swedish M1896 actions that were made basically a century ago, and the stories about some that have self-destructed, is the following: Don't shoot a bunch of full-mojo/high pressure modern ammo out of those often century old small-ring Mausers. I don't worry about the bullet and overall length, or the fact that they have long throats. As for my Full-mojo/full-power 120 grain Lapua ammo as seen below left? That will only be used in that modern Tikka Sporter rifle as seen in the top of the bottom picture - and it will not be shot out of my M41B (made in 1900), or the CG-63 (made in 1920). I think the Speer manual offers legitimate advice, and I think Lapua offers their most popular 6.5x55 load in two flavors to accommodate those European (and US) shooters who are still using those old M96 'small ring' Mauser actions.

View attachment 8156701

View attachment 8156700

My 2cts.

How do you like that sporter? I have casual started looking at Modern 6.5x55 rifles and that one has caught my eye

 

[AZgeek]

Here's my rendition of a 6.5 Swede Sporter. No laughing please! I have $385.00 in parts into it excluding the scope.

It's a one of a kind built around the carbine barrel. The Peruvian CZ action is rare but has no real value now. Its unique in that its a large ring, 3 lug action that accepts a small shank barrel.

 

[Random Guy]

How do you like that sporter? I have casual started looking at Modern 6.5x55 rifles and that one has caught my eye

I bought the Tikka T3 Sporter 9 or 10 years ago and I like it a lot. With ammo that it likes, it's a solid 0.5-0.6" MOA rifle without too much effort.
If I ever decide to try an informal F-class type event, this will be the rifle that I will likely use, with RL-15 and the Lapua 139 grain Scenar bullets.
Not sure they import this particular model anymore, but I have zero complaints about this rifle. IMO, its a high-quality European target rifle.

 

[USMCsean]

The best explanation for this is found in the Speer Reloading manual #14, which divides their 6.5x55 loads into two separate sections (see attached 3 pages from that manual and note the underlined sections - this makes more sense to me that the so-called "SEE" theory):
1. 'Military Actions' (aka the old Swedish M96 'small ring' military rifles made from 1896 until I think 1944).
2. 'Strong Commercial Actions' (aka basically any decent commercial rifle made in the post-WWII era with modern metallurgy and strong actions).

The metallurgy in a Swedish military action is just as good as the metallurgy in a modern rifle. FYI. The "Strong Commercial Actions" tend to be large ring in type, or similar, with simply more material backing up the receiver and therefore are more strong. The Swedish military action is limited by the geometry of the small ring receiver design, not because of raw material.

 

[Random Guy]

Yes, that seems correct. It’s presumably more of a pressure issue. Some have noted the gas escape/blow-back process in the event of case failure is not ideal on M96s, and better with the large ring M98 action, but no expert re this arcane topic.

 

[AZgeek]

Yes. Its my understanding that the main advantage of the G98/K98 Action is the gas blow-back venting. The third lug was added as final safety mechanism in the event of front bolt lug failure. It does not offload recoil energy from the front lugs. Here's a perspective on the metallurgy topic:

 

[Stephen Bachiler]

Do you 6.5 x 55 swede shooter full length resize or neck?

 

[AZgeek]

Do you 6.5 x 55 swede shooter full length resize or neck?

I full length resize only because I'm somewhat new to his caliber and not willing to make an investment in neck sizing dies yet. I would want a modern firearm before going down that road.

 

[AZgeek]

Forgot about the new K98 Timney trigger I added. Super nice! So got $520 in to this build. Worth it in terms of resale? Probably not, but sure learned a lot.

 

[Hetzer]

I full length size all of mine.

 

[Mk16.5]

I have two old swedes a 1908 and a 1919. I load 140g barnes at 47.2g ramshot hunter, 2800fps. Accurate, no pressure signs. Me likey

 

[ZG47A]

The January-March 2007 Number 53 issue of Guns & Game-a discontinued quarterly from Australia-contains an article by Gary Przibilla, the Australian Mauser 98 expert of that time. It is entitled:
Swedish Mauser M1896 “Hand Grenade”.
The article was prompted by an account of a Kimber-sporterised M96 in NZ that had blown up. Gary heard that story in early 2005. In May 2005 he came across another ‘blown up’ Kimber conversion-still with its original 6.5x55 SE barrel-in a local gun shop and ‘was allowed to borrow the wreckage’. If you can get hold of the article, it contains plenty of good information that I will not attempt to reiterate in this post.

The author quickly demolishes the nonsense argument presented in a now deleted post, that: increased free bore due to barrel erosion increases pressure, referring to experiments by P.O. Ackley, the Weatherby company and others. The most interesting revelation, however, is that the receiver ring had not been tapped for a scope mounting base. The owner asserted that the base had been silver soldered BUT Mr Przibilla discovered that the ‘silver’ was rusty and when filed, was very hard. The filings were magnetic. The foregoing is clear evidence that the front scope base was welded to the receiver ring. There may have been other factors contributing to the action failure but this is the most alarming revelation in the article.

Gossip belongs in the pub, smoko break, etcetera. Facts are necessary when you are using firearms.

 

[Stephen Bachiler]

Dialing in the loads for this rifle has been fun...getting the hold down has been a process. Things are progressing nicely.

100 yards
IMR 4064 laddered up
Primers look good