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Suppressors 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

W

WillardCW4

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 13, 2010
11
0
37
#1
I'm currently looking to purchase my first 1911 pistol. I own an XD-9 sub-compact (my carry gun) and a Sig P226 9mm.

I've narrowed my choices down to the Springfield Armory Operator 1911 and the Kimber (Desert) Warrior 1911. I'm really interested in having a rail on my 1911, and it will be used as a range and home defense weapon (so holsters aren't an issue).

Both guns are approximately the same price (~$1200) and I've played around with both and find both comfortable. Each have their merits as far as style... so I'm branching out to see if anyone has some first hand experience with a comparison between these two firearms. Also, this specific Kimber model at the store I'm planning on purchasing from DOES NOT have the firing pin safety that the newer models have.

Thanks in advance!
 
#3
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

I have a springfield mc operator with a surefire x400. I love them both. cant see myself ever getting rid of it.
 
#4
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

Smith 1911 with a tac rail look at those, its not yout typical Smith. They can run areound 800-900. Just make sure you get the stainless steel not the scandium frame, the alloy wont hold blue for too long with a lot of shooting, unless you send it off and have it re-coated with Dura Coat or Gun Coat.Smith used to forge the frames for Kimber. Kimber went on thier own and that is why some of them are having problems with the frames. Also Smith uses high end parts on thier 1911's. Smith also makes thier own barrels, and let me tell you I will go head to head with any Kimber or Springfield Armory using that Smith 1911.
 
#5
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

I have a Springfield TRP Operator with the full length light rail. I have had Kimber's in the past. The operator I carry for work with a TLR-1 light. My OPINION would be the Springfield. Both are good guns. I would stay away from the Kimber with external extractor. Some have issues with feeding and extracting. Again this is my OPINION not to offend anyone, but I would not buy the S&W 1911. Their quality of material leaves a little to be desired.
 
#6
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

I would get an STI. Springfields are made in Brazil and have poor fit; new Kimbers are junk. STI has single stack 1911s with rails in that price range that are made in America and much nicer than any Springfield.
 
#8
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

Downzero: I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with springfield's pistols, but I've got to tell you, I've owned about a dozen or so Springfields, and all of them have been top notch, well-fit pistols.

As to "made in brazil", it's not that simple. Yes, springfield sources their low-end pistols, and their slides/frames for their higher end pistols, with Imbel of Brazil. However, Imbel has quite a good reputation. And, the Loaded, TRP and up lines are finish machined, fitted, and assembled here in the US from rough slide/frame from Imbel.

Not to mention, they have a top notch warranty and will unflaggingly fix issues with their guns and often go above and beyond the bare minimum required for their customers, as long as the gun hasn't been modified by someone other than springfield.

Adding to that, Dave Williams, the guy in charge of Springfield's custom shop, is a top-flight gunsmith (He came after Les Baer who went off on his own), and the custom shop guys also assemble, far as I know, the guns that are assembled here in the US. They do a damn fine job. If they didn't, I doubt the FBI and other agencies would continue to buy their contract guns from them.
 
#9
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

My advice is go with the Springfield......I've had Kimbers and sold them due to reliability issues. Keep in mind they both utilize MIM small parts, which I am totally against. I shoot Wilson and Nighthawk pieces but picked up a TRP a while back and now I find myself using it most of the time........just my experiences. Good luck!!
 
#10
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would get an STI. Springfields are made in Brazil and have poor fit; new Kimbers are junk. STI has single stack 1911s with rails in that price range that are made in America and much nicer than any Springfield. </div></div>

If you order an STI, order from Dawson or Brazos and have them do their special package on it. For a little extra, you get the peace of mind that it will work great.
 
#11
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

I'm hoping you are going to have a chance to handle and examine your choice prior to purchase. Of all the makes mentioned, I have seen some lemons and real beauties. And even then the good ones had some degree if professional tweeking, whether it was swapping a few springs or 2-3 trips back to the mfg.

Might as well go custom or high end and save yourself the trouble down the road.
 
#12
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwhite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep in mind they both utilize MIM small parts...</div></div>

What are MIM small parts?
 
#14
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Elxx</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwhite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep in mind they both utilize MIM small parts...</div></div>

What are MIM small parts? </div></div>

Metal injection molding parts. Prone to breakage. Like with any popular platform, people are going to be cutting corners. There are good parts out there to replace them too.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-3725.html
 
#16
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Elxx</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwhite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep in mind they both utilize MIM small parts...</div></div>

What are MIM small parts? </div></div>

Metal injection molding parts. Prone to breakage. Like with any popular platform, people are going to be cutting corners. There are good parts out there to replace them too.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-3725.html</div></div>

As long as the MIM parts are not the critical, high stress/wear parts, I don't really see a problem with it.

Bob Serva's two cents:
http://stiguns.com/FAQ-MIM.php
 
#17
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

Had both, sold the kimber not long after getting it. Take a look at Fusion, built to order rather than having to choose an existing package and they are not as high as most of the custom builders.
 
#18
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

If you decide to go with a Kimber be sure it has an internal extractor. I have several Kimbers and have never had a problem with any of them. The only complaints i have heard are about the external extractor.

Fact is thay are both very good dependable guns.

Ford, Chevy, Ford, Chevy
 
#19
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

I have yet to see any evidence that quality MIM parts break any more frequently than machined small parts. The same techniques are used to manufacture parts for jet engines and ferraris, and are used in engines where they receive far more heat and wear. Often times, the plants making the small parts are the same ones making engine parts, and use the same QC processes.

Can there be bad MIM parts? sure. But likewise there can be bad machined parts. The only parts I've had break, in fact, were machined steel, not MIM.
 
#20
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would get an STI. Springfields are made in Brazil and have poor fit; new Kimbers are junk. STI has single stack 1911s with rails in that price range that are made in America and much nicer than any Springfield. </div></div>

If you order an STI, order from Dawson or Brazos and have them do their special package on it. For a little extra, you get the peace of mind that it will work great. </div></div>

I'm curious, but why should you buy a pistol, only to have it worked over by someone else BEFORE you even get it and shoot it, just to "be sure"? If I'm paying the price for a 1911, I expect it to work out of the box, no extra tweaking required.

As to kimbers, I had the same experiences as others have had: the kimbers I've owned had reliability problems, accuracy issues, and all around the company had very poor customer service when I tried to get the issues remedied.

Likewise, with my Springfields, they have all worked and been superbly accurate out of the box (well, except for the GI i bought, but I bought that to be a project gun and the internals were scrapped in favor of a match barrel and bushing, and a complete rework). I have never in my time working with springfield guns had one that required any sort of factory work, let alone tweaking or replacing of parts beyond removal of the ILS garbage.
 
#21
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirt Diver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would get an STI. Springfields are made in Brazil and have poor fit; new Kimbers are junk. STI has single stack 1911s with rails in that price range that are made in America and much nicer than any Springfield. </div></div>

If you order an STI, order from Dawson or Brazos and have them do their special package on it. For a little extra, you get the peace of mind that it will work great. </div></div>

I'm curious, but why should you buy a pistol, only to have it worked over by someone else BEFORE you even get it and shoot it, just to "be sure"? If I'm paying the price for a 1911, I expect it to work out of the box, no extra tweaking required.

As to kimbers, I had the same experiences as others have had: the kimbers I've owned had reliability problems, accuracy issues, and all around the company had very poor customer service when I tried to get the issues remedied.

Likewise, with my Springfields, they have all worked and been superbly accurate out of the box (well, except for the GI i bought, but I bought that to be a project gun and the internals were scrapped in favor of a match barrel and bushing, and a complete rework). I have never in my time working with springfield guns had one that required any sort of factory work, let alone tweaking or replacing of parts beyond removal of the ILS garbage.</div></div>

Well, with a factory production gun there is always a chance you are going to get a lemon regardless of how much you pay.

For instance with Brazos, you spend 150 dollars. They check it for fit and function, do a 3 pound trigger job, check/tune for feeding and ejection, test fire and sight in the gun for you.

Not a bad deal for 150 bucks if you asked me.
 
#22
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirt Diver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would get an STI. Springfields are made in Brazil and have poor fit; new Kimbers are junk. STI has single stack 1911s with rails in that price range that are made in America and much nicer than any Springfield. </div></div>

If you order an STI, order from Dawson or Brazos and have them do their special package on it. For a little extra, you get the peace of mind that it will work great. </div></div>

I'm curious, but why should you buy a pistol, only to have it worked over by someone else BEFORE you even get it and shoot it, just to "be sure"? If I'm paying the price for a 1911, I expect it to work out of the box, no extra tweaking required.

As to kimbers, I had the same experiences as others have had: the kimbers I've owned had reliability problems, accuracy issues, and all around the company had very poor customer service when I tried to get the issues remedied.

Likewise, with my Springfields, they have all worked and been superbly accurate out of the box (well, except for the GI i bought, but I bought that to be a project gun and the internals were scrapped in favor of a match barrel and bushing, and a complete rework). I have never in my time working with springfield guns had one that required any sort of factory work, let alone tweaking or replacing of parts beyond removal of the ILS garbage.</div></div>

Well, with a factory production gun there is always a chance you are going to get a lemon regardless of how much you pay.

For instance with Brazos, you spend 150 dollars. They check it for fit and function, do a 3 pound trigger job, check/tune for feeding and ejection, test fire and sight in the gun for you.

Not a bad deal for 150 bucks if you asked me. </div></div>

I agree, not a bad deal. But I'm still not sure I want to spend the $1200 on the pistol, then pay another $150 on top of that when it should work right the first time.
 
#23
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mcoop8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you decide to go with a Kimber be sure it has an internal extractor. </div></div>
The model mentioned for consideration has an internal extractor- the Warrior is one of Kimber's "good" ones.
 
#24
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

see i have a TLE/RL and have had no issues what so ever with it and have put about 1500-2000 rounds through it, its been nothing but reliable, and shoots better then most of my other pistols. but i do agree their customer service is horrible (kimber). though i do plan on getting a custom 1911 here soon.
 
#25
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would get an STI. Springfields are made in Brazil and have poor fit; new Kimbers are junk. STI has single stack 1911s with rails in that price range that are made in America and much nicer than any Springfield. </div></div>

If you order an STI, order from Dawson or Brazos and have them do their special package on it. For a little extra, you get the peace of mind that it will work great. </div></div>

STI has a no bullshit, no questions asked lifetime warranty. There is no reason to have any smith work on it unless you want different parts installed. They will run or STI will fix it, in house, in the USA, and for free.
 
#27
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

Both are good pistols, but if you're not used to doing your own 1911 tuning, you may be better off getting the SA Operator.

I really like Kimbers, but they often leave the factory with annoying little issues (too much extractor tension, slide stop engaging prematurely, failure to return to battery, etc). If you know how to do your own tuning, you can fix those little issues quickly and have a very reliable weapon. Why Kimber continues to produce weapons with these easily fixed minor faults is beyond my scope of imagination.

If you're counting on it running right out of the box, the Operator would be a better bet IMO.
 
#29
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirt Diver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Downzero: I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with springfield's pistols, but I've got to tell you, I've owned about a dozen or so Springfields, and all of them have been top notch, well-fit pistols.

As to "made in brazil", it's not that simple. Yes, springfield sources their low-end pistols, and their slides/frames for their higher end pistols, with Imbel of Brazil. However, Imbel has quite a good reputation. And, the Loaded, TRP and up lines are finish machined, fitted, and assembled here in the US from rough slide/frame from Imbel.

Not to mention, they have a top notch warranty and will unflaggingly fix issues with their guns and often go above and beyond the bare minimum required for their customers, as long as the gun hasn't been modified by someone other than springfield.

Adding to that, Dave Williams, the guy in charge of Springfield's custom shop, is a top-flight gunsmith (He came after Les Baer who went off on his own), and the custom shop guys also assemble, far as I know, the guns that are assembled here in the US. They do a damn fine job. If they didn't, I doubt the FBI and other agencies would continue to buy their contract guns from them. </div></div>

+ 1
 
#30
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirt Diver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Downzero: I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with springfield's pistols, but I've got to tell you, I've owned about a dozen or so Springfields, and all of them have been top notch, well-fit pistols.

As to "made in brazil", it's not that simple. Yes, springfield sources their low-end pistols, and their slides/frames for their higher end pistols, with Imbel of Brazil. However, Imbel has quite a good reputation. And, the Loaded, TRP and up lines are finish machined, fitted, and assembled here in the US from rough slide/frame from Imbel.

Not to mention, they have a top notch warranty and will unflaggingly fix issues with their guns and often go above and beyond the bare minimum required for their customers, as long as the gun hasn't been modified by someone other than springfield.

Adding to that, Dave Williams, the guy in charge of Springfield's custom shop, is a top-flight gunsmith (He came after Les Baer who went off on his own), and the custom shop guys also assemble, far as I know, the guns that are assembled here in the US. They do a damn fine job. If they didn't, I doubt the FBI and other agencies would continue to buy their contract guns from them. </div></div>

Or I can just buy a 100%, made in USA, made on INCH machines and not metric, pistol.

I have two ten+ year old Kimbers and an STI. None of them has even a single part that wasn't made here in the USA by an American worker.

If you want to buy Springfield's third world crap at premium price, be my guest.

Fact of the matter is that the STI Trojan is everything the Loaded is an more for $999. In fact, if you look at it objectively, the Trojan has more features than any loaded for only a modest increase in price, and costs about the same as a Brazilian-made Springfield.

I'm not usually a "made in USA" kinda guy, but when it comes to 1911s, nobody knows them better than the country that invented them.

For the price of a TRP, Operator, or Professional, I can buy a base model gun, send it to a smith, and when it returns have a custom gun built to my specs. Or I can upgrade as I go. Either way, I think I can get more for my money that way.
 
#31
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

I have had a Kimber Custom II and currently own a Springfield Operator. I had a lot of feeding problems with the Kimber so I got rid of it. I have had no issues with the operator and it loves hollowpoints.
 
#32
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirt Diver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Downzero: I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with springfield's pistols, but I've got to tell you, I've owned about a dozen or so Springfields, and all of them have been top notch, well-fit pistols.

As to "made in brazil", it's not that simple. Yes, springfield sources their low-end pistols, and their slides/frames for their higher end pistols, with Imbel of Brazil. However, Imbel has quite a good reputation. And, the Loaded, TRP and up lines are finish machined, fitted, and assembled here in the US from rough slide/frame from Imbel.

Not to mention, they have a top notch warranty and will unflaggingly fix issues with their guns and often go above and beyond the bare minimum required for their customers, as long as the gun hasn't been modified by someone other than springfield.

Adding to that, Dave Williams, the guy in charge of Springfield's custom shop, is a top-flight gunsmith (He came after Les Baer who went off on his own), and the custom shop guys also assemble, far as I know, the guns that are assembled here in the US. They do a damn fine job. If they didn't, I doubt the FBI and other agencies would continue to buy their contract guns from them. </div></div>

Or I can just buy a 100%, made in USA, made on INCH machines and not metric, pistol.

I have two ten+ year old Kimbers and an STI. None of them has even a single part that wasn't made here in the USA by an American worker.

If you want to buy Springfield's third world crap at premium price, be my guest.

Fact of the matter is that the STI Trojan is everything the Loaded is an more for $999. In fact, if you look at it objectively, the Trojan has more features than any loaded for only a modest increase in price, and costs about the same as a Brazilian-made Springfield.

I'm not usually a "made in USA" kinda guy, but when it comes to 1911s, nobody knows them better than the country that invented them.

For the price of a TRP, Operator, or Professional, I can buy a base model gun, send it to a smith, and when it returns have a custom gun built to my specs. Or I can upgrade as I go. Either way, I think I can get more for my money that way. </div></div>

Hey, to each his own. However, Imbel has been making military arms (I believe using the Colt specs) for many years before Springfield started importing from them. Also, several custom pistol smiths that I am friends with have said repeatedly that the springfield guns' frames use a higher quality steel than some others, and prefer to work with them as base guns.

That being said, I cannot affirm or refute your "100% made in america" claim, as I don't know where STI or Kimber get their frames and slides from, I highly doubt that they start with a billet of steel and machine/forge the parts themselves. In fact, I know the STI Trojan uses a cast frame, and I do not know where they get their castings done.

When it comes down to it, 100% made in america is a great thing. However, I'm not going to buy something that's 100% made in america (Kimber) when the company has poor customer service and frankly produces crap. I have no experience with STI other than to say I've never been attracted to their guns. I know springfield's master smith, I know who builds their guns, and I know that their warranty and customer service is top notch, and they employ some very very good smiths.

Made in brazil doesn't bother me one iota.
 
#33
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

From my experience, any out-of-the-box 1911 not built as GI/mil-spec may or may not have reliability issues, feeding issues etc.
Brand does not mater, its a fact when manufacturers try to push "custom" guns off an assembly line, without the personal attention found in a real custom gun.
Any of those 2 in question would do, personally Id go with the Springfield.
I have never been partial to country of origin, as one country puts out junk just like the next one.
What matters to me is reliability and function, and I have seen more reliable Springfields than Kimbers.
I own Kimbers myself, but they are not my first choice for a "combat gun" without further attention from a GOOD custom smith for reliability work.

John - out
 
#34
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

Texagator, good post! Any chance your department might go with Springfield?
grin.gif


That being said, I'd love to talk to you about your experiences with the XD, maybe shoot me a PM?
 
#35
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirt Diver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Hey, to each his own. However, Imbel has been making military arms (I believe using the Colt specs) for many years before Springfield started importing from them. Also, several custom pistol smiths that I am friends with have said repeatedly that the springfield guns' frames use a higher quality steel than some others, and prefer to work with them as base guns.

That being said, I cannot affirm or refute your "100% made in america" claim, as I don't know where STI or Kimber get their frames and slides from, I highly doubt that they start with a billet of steel and machine/forge the parts themselves. In fact, I know the STI Trojan uses a cast frame, and I do not know where they get their castings done.

When it comes down to it, 100% made in america is a great thing. However, I'm not going to buy something that's 100% made in america (Kimber) when the company has poor customer service and frankly produces crap. I have no experience with STI other than to say I've never been attracted to their guns. I know springfield's master smith, I know who builds their guns, and I know that their warranty and customer service is top notch, and they employ some very very good smiths.

Made in brazil doesn't bother me one iota. </div></div>

Kimber used to have a very obvious statement on their website years ago that their parts were 100% made in USA. It disappeared around 2006.

New Kimbers are junk. I love my older Kimbers, but the new ones are nothing compared to the quality product that reinvigorated America's love affair with the 1911 in the 1990s. I wouldn't buy a Kimber today, either.

I've never heard anything bad about Kimber's customer service. I have heard a lot of stories about people returning guns to Kimber and getting them fixed free of charge in about two weeks. I couldn't ask for any better than that.

STI's business practices are very clear from this portion of their website:
http://www.stiguns.com/BusinessPractices.php

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">STI International, Inc. manufactures <span style="font-style: italic">all </span>of its own components except pins, springs, scopes, and our outsourced firearms, the Spartan and the Texican.</span> The suppliers of these purchased parts are reputable manufacturers with whom we have long term business relationships. We are, therefore, supremely confident in the fit, form, and function of every firearm and firearm part that we ship to our loyal customer base. With that in mind, we unconditionally warranty our products for their intended purpose, when installed properly, As with any product, abuse and normal wear are excluded.</div></div> (emphasis added)

STI doesn't "get their castings done," unless you meant, "done right here in our shop in Texas."

Springfields are usually decent and have a good batch of features. It's just too bad they're way overpriced for being made in a third world country.

In some attempt to drive this back to the original poster, given the choice, I would probably get a Springifield, Loaded or better. The loaded comes with almost all of the features that I think essential, except front strap checkering.
 
#36
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

Apparently you missed the statement about their Texican and Spartan pistols being outsourced...And they don't say to where or who makes them. So, my statement still stands, "get their castings done". I'd love to believe they have their castings done in-house, but I would have to see it to believe it -- investment casting of steel is a very very involved process and requires a lot of gear to do.

As to Kimber's customer service, you're in the minority...there are *lots* of issues floating around, including my own personal experience which mirrors the experience Texagator's department had with them.

Also, given the long-standing positive reputation of Imbel, I would hardly call it "made in a third-world country". This isn't some place like Cambodia here. Brazil is an industrialized nation with very good manufacturing practices.

But hey, like I said, to each his own. You buy what you like, I'll buy what I like.
 
#37
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

Riverside SWAT went with the Smith 1911 tactical from what I understand. STI is a good 1911 like some of the gents above have stated. Smith & Wesson was forgeing the frames for Kimber. After Kimber started doing thier own thing the quality went down. Spingfield TRP are also good guns. I am good friends with a former Recon Marine. He used to carry a tricked out Springfield 1911. I have a Smith 1911 and have never had any problems with it. My 2 cents check on the net for different reviews,also go to the manufactures web site and read up.Put them in your hands go from there. With a 1911 you are not going to go wrong. Look at how long the gun design has been around and who makes them. It should not have any problems what so ever when you buy one becasue of the way they are designed. So I would shoot which ever one it is that you buy before sending it off and having all the " Tacticool " stuff done to it. It should all ready have a polished and ported feed ramp for H.P. rounds, ect. if the manufacture has any common reasoning skills. Most of the P.D. here in Ohio carry Speer Gold Dot including myself. I use the Speer + P in . 45. Never had any feeding issues in my duty ( G21) weapon or my 1911.
 
#38
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirt Diver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Apparently you missed the statement about their Texican and Spartan pistols being outsourced...And they don't say to where or who makes them. So, my statement still stands, "get their castings done". I'd love to believe they have their castings done in-house, but I would have to see it to believe it -- investment casting of steel is a very very involved process and requires a lot of gear to do.

As to Kimber's customer service, you're in the minority...there are *lots* of issues floating around, including my own personal experience which mirrors the experience Texagator's department had with them.

Also, given the long-standing positive reputation of Imbel, I would hardly call it "made in a third-world country". This isn't some place like Cambodia here. Brazil is an industrialized nation with very good manufacturing practices.

But hey, like I said, to each his own. You buy what you like, I'll buy what I like. </div></div>

I don't know about the Texican, but the Spartan is made in the Philippines. It's also $600 and has the same kind of feature package that you'd expect from a loaded...for 1/3 less.

STI does not outsource any of its work on its American made products, period. Dave Skinner is a long time supporter of competitive shooting and is damn proud of the product his company produces. You can try all you want to downplay those business practices but they're clearly in black and white right on his website. STI doesn't run some hokey third world shop like SA and Taurus.

One of my Professors has written more about the economy of Brazil than any scholar in history. Brazil (along with the rest of latin america) is a backward, underdeveloped, third world hellhole compared to here.
 
#39
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirt Diver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Apparently you missed the statement about their Texican and Spartan pistols being outsourced...And they don't say to where or who makes them. So, my statement still stands, "get their castings done". I'd love to believe they have their castings done in-house, but I would have to see it to believe it -- investment casting of steel is a very very involved process and requires a lot of gear to do.

As to Kimber's customer service, you're in the minority...there are *lots* of issues floating around, including my own personal experience which mirrors the experience Texagator's department had with them.

Also, given the long-standing positive reputation of Imbel, I would hardly call it "made in a third-world country". This isn't some place like Cambodia here. Brazil is an industrialized nation with very good manufacturing practices.

But hey, like I said, to each his own. You buy what you like, I'll buy what I like. </div></div>

I don't know about the Texican, but the Spartan is made in the Philippines. It's also $600 and has the same kind of feature package that you'd expect from a loaded...for 1/3 less.

STI does not outsource any of its work on its American made products, period. Dave Skinner is a long time supporter of competitive shooting and is damn proud of the product his company produces. You can try all you want to downplay those business practices but they're clearly in black and white right on his website. STI doesn't run some hokey third world shop like SA and Taurus.

One of my Professors has written more about the economy of Brazil than any scholar in history. Brazil (along with the rest of latin america) is a backward, underdeveloped, third world hellhole compared to here. </div></div>

Ah, but see, I was't trying to downplay STI at all. I know that they ARE a good company and they are proud of their products. This isn't an attempt to attack anything, and you seem to be taking it awful personal.

I have no knowledge of Taurus, either, so I can't speak to them. However "running a hokey third-world shop" suggests that Imbel is some group of beggars who scratch out guns. Imbel has a very *long* reputation for making quality firearms, not just the 1911s.

And, as I have pointed out, SA's guns from the loaded on up aren't knocked out by anyone in brazil. Let me repeat that. <span style="font-weight: bold">SA's loaded and higher lines of pistols are not manufactured or assembled in brazil.</span> Springfield Armory imports raw slide and frames, finish machine the pistols here, fit the pistols here, assemble the pistols here, QC the pistols here, and do all the custom work here.

Their GI and Mil Spec pistols (and I believe some, but not the majority, of the loaded line) are brought in from Brazil. So how is that any different from STI who machines, assembles, and QCs their pistols here in the US, but get a low-end pistol from a third world country (in this case, the Phillipines)?

You also assert that it doesn't outsource any of the work on its american made products. Really. So, then, they own the mine that pulls the Iron out of the ground, they own the foundry where the Iron is smelted and produced into Steel, they own the company that built the molds for their casting process...? They do every step from raw ore to finished products? They Also make every small part, own the company that makes their finish material, etc.? It's rather silly to get into an argument of who makes what where since chances are the billet steel they get is chinese or made in some other part of the world. Likewise with the raw materials for other parts of the gun.

You keep making this personal and getting all up in arms about STI being the ultimate in pistols. I'm not saying they're not great guns. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">I do not have anything against STI and believe their pistols are great guns. I believe they're a good company and they make a good product. I have absolutely nothing against them, and this is not personal</span></span></span>.

If you don't like SA, that's fine. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. But unless you can state factually that there is a specific reason that their products are bad (all i've heard so far is that the products are made in a "third world" which I've shown is not true, and can provide evidence to back me up), then it's not anything but an opinion. Chill out, relax, enjoy your STIs. Have a beer on me, brother. I'm glad to accept other people's opinions.
 
#40
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

I just want to say this is by far the most impressed with a forum I have ever been. I appreciate all of your responses and you guys have truly helped me get some perspective in my hunt for my 1911.

Currently, I'm leaning towards SA over Kimber... but am in the process of checking out STI, Fusion, and S&W. Since I'm a 1911 noob I'm also thinking just buying a SA Operator or Loaded-A1 will be a good bet for my first gun so I can learn the ins and outs, likes and dislikes, before I start looking at custom builds.

Again, thanks for the input, and any additional info is still appreciated!!! (Keep at it
wink.gif
)
 
#41
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

I really don't think you can go wrong with a SA loaded. The STI Spartan, while imported, really has all the features of the loaded for about $200 less, though.

An SA loaded, + sending it off to get the front strap checkered for about $200, would be plenty of gun for most people.

I'm a competition shooter, so I'd want a mag well ($50-100) and perhaps a fiber optic front sight ($50). The trigger and the mechanism of most guns in the $800 range is going to be nice enough. You can get the trigger a little lighter by putting in a 17 lb mainspring anyway.
 
#42
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WillardCW4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just want to say this is by far the most impressed with a forum I have ever been. I appreciate all of your responses and you guys have truly helped me get some perspective in my hunt for my 1911.

Currently, I'm leaning towards SA over Kimber... but am in the process of checking out STI, Fusion, and S&W. Since I'm a 1911 noob I'm also thinking just buying a SA Operator or Loaded-A1 will be a good bet for my first gun so I can learn the ins and outs, likes and dislikes, before I start looking at custom builds.

Again, thanks for the input, and any additional info is still appreciated!!! (Keep at it
wink.gif
) </div></div>

While we can obviously get passionate about our favorite builds of guns, one of the things I can tell you is that, as a 1911 n00b, the best thing to do is to buy a decent gun from a decent manufacturer, DON"T worry about the bells and whistles, and figure out what works and doesn't work for you.

I owned Kimbers because they were available, and I had a bad experience with them. I owned SAs and they treated me right, regardless of where they were "made". I learned, however, I preferred a high grip cut under the trigger guard, I preferred a high cut on the grip safety, and hated three-dot sights. After learning all that through lots and lots of use of the 1911, I went to Volkmann Custom and invested $2500 in a full-on custom-built 1911 that was set up exactly how I wanted it.

But, regardless, the first thing I would say is, don't buy a high-end custom gun because for the investment, it won't do you any better than a quality production gun. You can't buy skill or trigger time by investing in a custom out of the gate. Get used to the platform, figure out what works for you, and get time behind the trigger. Then worry about a 1911 built up exactly to your taste.

I went through a lot of production rifles and trigger time before I decided on exactly what I wanted in a custom rifle, too. THen I invested in a good, custom-built rifle.
 
#43
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really don't think you can go wrong with a SA loaded. The STI Spartan, while imported, really has all the features of the loaded for about $200 less, though.

An SA loaded, + sending it off to get the front strap checkered for about $200, would be plenty of gun for most people.

I'm a competition shooter, so I'd want a mag well ($50-100) and perhaps a fiber optic front sight ($50). The trigger and the mechanism of most guns in the $800 range is going to be nice enough. You can get the trigger a little lighter by putting in a 17 lb mainspring anyway. </div></div>

We agree wholeheartedly. Sorry if I stepped on yer toes or ticked ya off, was not my intention.

The one thing I *don't* like on the Spartan is it comes with adjustable sights instead of fixed. If you're planning to use this pistol as a carry gun, I'd prefer to have a good set of fixed sights installed.

As to front strap checkering, I've found that it's hit or miss. Not everyone likes having that surface. A good stopgap until you decide yes or now is a strip of 3M Stair Tread Grip Tape. A roll costs about $5, and it's very resistant to solvent, etc. Gives you the textured front strap to try out, and when it wears out you can replace it. ALso doesn't harm the finish. It took a long time of shooting with grip tape to feel comfortable with it over something like finger-grooved grips from Hogue or similar.
 
#45
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

This thread has no point.....Its like asking whats better Ford or Chevy? Any item made from steel is prone to having some minor flaws in it. When steel is made some fallout will always happen. I would shoot both guns and figure out what you like better and what feels more natural to shoot. I have owned Colt, Kimber, Springfield 1911's......All of them had a minor flaw or 2 if I looked hard enough. Buy a gun that you know will be a laser in your hand! You may have an intruder wonder if the frame on your kimber has a machine mark on it, but I would rather him wonder why he has a red dot on his chest when I am not even aiming.

Just my 2 cents
 
#46
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

Your right Smudaar its like comparing a apples to apples. Hold both of them buy what fells the best. I know personaly that Springfield has great customer service, Not sure about kimbers.
 
#47
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

I cant speak for Springfield but Kimbers seem to be hit and miss. My Custom II ran ball fine from the factory but took a little tuning (extractor and new fitted slide stop) to run hollow points reliably. Now it will eat anything.
 
#48
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

I have two 1911's, a Springfield and a Kimber. Of the two, I recommend Springfields.

The Springfield is a fullsize Loaded model that I use for USPSA, it just runs like a clock. It's still dead stock, is accurate enough, and just runs perfectly.

The Kimber, a 3" Ultra Raptor, had lots of teething problems, but now runs perfectly. The extractor had no tension from the factory and the slide stop was so long it would bump loaded factory rounds feeding from the magazine and lock the slide back. I replaced both parts with Ed Brown Hardcore parts, and it runs perfectly now. Surprisingly accurate and easy to shoot, too. It's my carry gun.
 
#49
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

I own a Springfield and have looked at an STI for an USPSA gun. Go shoot them both. I have never had to use Springfield customer service, but it is purported to be wonderful. They have 3 members of the American Pistolsmith's Guild on staff. There are only 50 members in the states.

Josh
 
#50
Re: 1911 dilemma... springfield vs kimber

I have had 3 different kimbers in my possesion in the "new" condition. All 3 needed small "tweaks" before working. 2 were original SS GM's and 1 series 2 eclipse Target 2. The 1st GM was sold and a 2nd acquired. I still have that pistol and it is a 1" paster killer at 25yds, as well as it runs anything you feed it. I sold the Eclipse because it was good enough for a defense pistol, but not very accurate. (5" groups at 25yds with ball). I will not own another Kimber unless something big changes. They have lost thier way. I have purchased a Springfield TRP and ran a couple thousand rounds through it over the last year. It is fairly accurate. (<2" groups at 25yds) It runs anything but Winchester BEB truncated ammo like clockwork. It has not jammed on me, but for reloads that were known to be a hair too long, and used for training purposes. It ran those loads 6x better than several custom pistols shooting them. I cannot understand the animosity towards the Springfields. At the IDPA matches I have shot, the Springfields perform very well, and for the money, I'd like to see the big name smith that will give you that same set of features for under $2k, when the TRP is $1300. The Springfields are a deal. I don't like MIM any better than anyone else, but I have yet to see a piece break at a match on one of these pistols. When I do, I guess I'll drop in a couple of Wilson parts and not worry then either. I would buy Wilson CQB if I had the money, just because, but ended up with my TRP shortly after they changed prices on me after quoting a CQB build for me a couple of years ago. At this time I do not feel undergunned with the Springfield at all though. Hope this helps the OP.
 
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