Gunsmithing 1911 Hammer follow when empty

[jeo556]

Expierencing hammer follow when using the slide release when empty or using snap-caps, hasn't happened yet with real ammo, when shooting, or if I drop the slide by hand.

I know that the previous owner had some work done to the trigger so I'm assuming that the sear/hammer interface is the culprit.

Question I have is "Should I change out the sear and hammer? or since I haven't had any trouble yet while shooting for with real ammo let it go?"

I'd appreciate replies from those of you that have some intimate knowledge of 1911 triggers.

Thanks

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

That could be so potentially dangerous I would have all those parts replaced by a reputable gunsmith preferably whoever manufactured the pistol

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

there's too little sear engagement... it'll eventually happen w/ a live round... easiest/cheapest is to install a drop in trigger kit... I like cylinder and slide, but there are others.

 

[RMPSTRAT]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

Check your sear spring pressure as well. If there isn't enough pressure on the leg to the back of the sear you can also have follow. As a general rule it's not a good idea to drop the slide on an empty chamber on a 1911 that has had trigger work due to the face that the disconnector isn't working like is does during firing and thus the sear nose will get battered

 

[RADcustom]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

Why not try bending the spring a little bit first before you go replacing parts?

You didn't mention what trigger it had, if it is aluminum, plastic, etc.

Most likely what you are experiencing is trigger bounce. You can check this by holding the trigger back while dropping the slide or putting pressure on the side of the trigger with your index finger while dropping the slide.

If you are still experiencing hammer fall under these conditions, then you need to add tension to the sear spring by bending the left side forward slightly and try again.

While it is good to safety check it, it is not a good idea to drop the slide on an empty chamber after you have had trigger work. You could potentially damage the mating surfaces of the sear and hammer to the point of malfunction.

Parga posted while I was typing.

 

[Tactical Support]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

It should be looked at by a Competent 1911 smith.

 

[yocan]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

seems like most used 1911s for sale are gunhacked 1911s where some fool messed with the sear/hammer/sear spring.

to be safe all 3 need to be replaced by a competent gunsmith. Cyllinder and slide stuff is amazine and if you get it it might just drop in. But the safer bet is a fusion firing control group (did this after buying a gunhacked 1911) which is 99 bucks, hammer, disco, hammer strut, all the internals for the MSH, trigger sear spring, and all the pins. Getting it installed by a smith should be a smidgen under 100 bucks, so under 200 assuming nothing else is wrong with the gun, and when the smith takes it apart he can inspect for other things wrong. (mine had a few things wrong)

 

[x ring accuracy]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

Sear engagement is to light.

 

[athhud]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

A buddy of mine is having the same problem with a pistol that has a drop in Cylinder and Slide trigger group (bone stock no polishing or anything else) and a brand new un-modified Wilson Combat sear spring. I haven't gotten a chance to look it over yet, but sear engagement is the only thing that makes sense to me. The trigger is on the heavy side around 5.5lbs so I know that the sear spring pressure isn't the problem. He's also running a rather heavy mainspring, so it takes some force to disengage the sear. If I remember, I'll report back when I figure it out. I just wanted to make the point that throwing big name parts at the problem isn't always a fix.

 

[Redcreek1]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not try bending the spring a little bit first before you go replacing parts?

You didn't mention what trigger it had, if it is aluminum, plastic, etc.

Most likely what you are experiencing is trigger bounce. You can check this by holding the trigger back while dropping the slide or putting pressure on the side of the trigger with your index finger while dropping the slide.

If you are still experiencing hammer fall under these conditions, then you need to add tension to the sear spring by bending the left side forward slightly and try again.

While it is good to safety check it, it is not a good idea to drop the slide on an empty chamber after you have had trigger work. You could potentially damage the mating surfaces of the sear and hammer to the point of malfunction.

Parga posted while I was typing. </div></div>

This is the correct troble shooting procedure.

However, I would add that if after tensioning the sear spring you still have hammer follow you either have a problem with the dissconnector and/or hammer-sear engagment and those items should then be checked.

As far as replacing the hammer/sear/dissconnector, there is no such thing as "drop in" 1911 parts. "Drop-in" and 1911 is an oxymoron. These parts and any other on a 1911 should be properly fitted.

 

[athhud]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

As far as replacing the hammer/sear/dissconnector, there is no such thing as "drop in" 1911 parts. "Drop-in" and 1911 is an oxymoron. These parts and any other on a 1911 should be properly fitted.

</div></div>

Spoken like a pro....

 

[jeo556]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

Thanks for the replies guys. I will work on the spring first then look into a trigger kit if the spring doesn't help.

Anyone know what is needed to CORRECTLY do a trigger job at home?

 

[tomthebaker]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not try bending the spring a little bit first before you go replacing parts?

You didn't mention what trigger it had, if it is aluminum, plastic, etc.

Most likely what you are experiencing is trigger bounce. You can check this by holding the trigger back while dropping the slide or putting pressure on the side of the trigger with your index finger while dropping the slide.

If you are still experiencing hammer fall under these conditions, then you need to add tension to the sear spring by bending the left side forward slightly and try again.

While it is good to safety check it, it is not a good idea to drop the slide on an empty chamber after you have had trigger work. You could potentially damage the mating surfaces of the sear and hammer to the point of malfunction.

Parga posted while I was typing. </div></div>

This is the correct troble shooting procedure.

However, I would add that if after tensioning the sear spring you still have hammer follow you either have a problem with the dissconnector and/or hammer-sear engagment and those items should then be checked.

As far as replacing the hammer/sear/dissconnector, there is no such thing as "drop in" 1911 parts. "Drop-in" and 1911 is an oxymoron. These parts and any other on a 1911 should be properly fitted.

</div></div>

+1 on Sear Spring Tension, but, ***WARNING*** a 1911 that has hammer follow CAN go full-auto just by dropping the slide and chambering with a full mag. Ask me how I know!

I can still feel the gun going up and hear the ping of the 3rd round hitting the steel roof support, and see the spinning bullet on the table next to me. Good thing I had it (as always) pointed downrange when chambering a round. Good thing I was at the range and not at home. Glad it jammed after that 3rd round, and I wish I had had a better grip on it when I dropped the slide.

PLEASE load only 1 round in the mag at a time until the issue is completely resolved.

 

[tomthebaker]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the replies guys. I will work on the spring first then look into a trigger kit if the spring doesn't help.

Anyone know what is needed to CORRECTLY do a trigger job at home?

</div></div>
Cylinder and Slide hammer/trigger/sear/disconnector combinations are usually good-to-go, but a good gunsmith measures and cuts the hammer hooks, uses a sear-jig for the correct sear engagement angle, bends the sear spring to the correct tension, perhaps changes the "main" spring (hammer spring), and then checks for wear after 100-200 rounds to ensure that sear engagement is even on both sides.

I am not a gunsmith, but a very good friend is a skilled, experienced and competent 1911 smith, who even trained directly under Armand Swenson.

 

[Redcreek1]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the replies guys. I will work on the spring first then look into a trigger kit if the spring doesn't help.

Anyone know what is needed to CORRECTLY do a trigger job at home?

</div></div>

If you start with a good hammer/sear/dissconnector set like Cylinder and Slide all you need are the stoning fixtures, stones,try-pins,try thumb safety,trigger pull gauge, microscope or really good jewlers loop, Foredom or Dremel with the proper Cratex points and felt bobs to polish out parts of the dissconnector, sear spring, etc. it also doensnt hurt to stone the internal surfaces of the frame where the hammer and sear reside as well as the trigger tracks, etc.

You should also be aware that odds are that the thumb safty that in there will need to be modified (if it is still oversize) or replaced (if under size) and the new one properly fitted for safe function.

So, all it takes is about $500 to $1,000 in tools and a few years of experience to really do the job right.

 

[x ring accuracy]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

Ignition parts of a 1911 are complex, but simple when understood. As I posted before, sear engagement is too light. Others have stated that there is no such thing as "drop in" parts. If you file, fiddle, f&$k with those parts, remove too much metal in the act of polishing, all hell breaks loose.

 

[x ring accuracy]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the replies guys. I will work on the spring first then look into a trigger kit if the spring doesn't help.

Anyone know what is needed to CORRECTLY do a trigger job at home?

</div></div>

If you start with a good hammer/sear/dissconnector set like Cylinder and Slide all you need are the stoning fixtures, stones,try-pins,try thumb safety,trigger pull gauge, microscope or really good jewlers loop, Foredom or Dremel with the proper Cratex points and felt bobs to polish out parts of the dissconnector, sear spring, etc. it also doensnt hurt to stone the internal surfaces of the frame where the hammer and sear reside as well as the trigger tracks, etc.

You should also be aware that odds are that the thumb safty that in there will need to be modified (if it is still oversize) or replaced (if under size) and the new one properly fitted for safe function.

So, all it takes is about $500 to $1,000 in tools and a few years of experience to really do the job right.

</div></div>
Was reading too fast and missed it, but redcreek hit the nail on the head.

 

[pcschwenke]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

Here's my recommendation. Buy a Clark 4 finger main spring and adjust each leg individually to get the desired sear & disconnect or pressure. Most likely the spring is the problem. It may be weak and not holding pressure. Worst case you may need a new hammer and sear. EGA, Ed Brown, Koenig. Cylinder & Slide, and Wilson all make good products. Another good source is Caspian. They make incredible slides and frames.

Buy a khunhausen (sp?) manual and learn about the 1911. Book 1 would be a good place for you to start. It's not very difficult to get one running correctly. You don't need to spend $500/1000 to get this fixed either. PM me if you have questions. I built a lot of 1911s over the past 20 years.

Paul

 

[LawnMM]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

You bought it used, this may not be the only issue. Have a smith look at the whole gun and adjust as necessary.

 

[Redcreek1]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pcschwenke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's my recommendation. Buy a Clark 4 finger main spring and adjust each leg individually to get the desired sear & disconnect or pressure. Most likely the spring is the problem. It may be weak and not holding pressure. Worst case you may need a new hammer and sear. EGA, Ed Brown, Koenig. Cylinder & Slide, and Wilson all make good products. Another good source is Caspian. They make incredible slides and frames.

Buy a khunhausen (sp?) manual and learn about the 1911. Book 1 would be a good place for you to start. It's not very difficult to get one running correctly. You don't need to spend $500/1000 to get this fixed either. PM me if you have questions. I built a lot of 1911s over the past 20 years.

Paul </div></div>

If properly adjusting the existing three leg sear spring doenst fix the problem then the Clark four leg spring wont either. The only real advantage to the four leg spring is allowing for fine tuning the trigger for light trigger pull weights - under 3 pounds. However if you know how to properly do 1911 trigger jobs you can get safe 2lb and under, triggers, something I learned from Jack Weigand, who spent 20 years perfecting the process.

Also, if you dont need the tools and equipment (and more) that I listed then Wilson, Baer, Brown, Clark, Weigand, Chen, Yam, Volkman and Laughridge, as well as all the other accomplished 1911 smiths must be a bunch of dumb shits for buying all these tools and spending years perfecting how to use them.

Boy do I feel stupid now.

 

[athhud]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

Those high dollar tools are a must IF you do this for a living and time=money. They are by no means a requirement. If you have the time and patience, a sheet of glass and an extensive collection of varying sandpaper grits will suffice for the majority of work that you run into with a 1911. I've yet to see a quality sear/hammer combo that REQUIRED work. If you want to get those extremely light triggers, then yes you need the fancy tools, but for a home defense/range gun 4-5 lbs is plenty low enough. Spring selection goes a long way in trigger weight. The "Pros" over-complicate the hell out of simple geometry because it increases business. If you'll take the time to analyze how each part interacts with the other, you'll be capable of building a quality 1911 in no time.

As for the drop in parts. There are thousands of parts that will drop into a frame and work flawlessly. Could they be better? Of course they can, but to say that there is no such thing is utter bull shit. Of course a smith that is trying to make a buck on a simple parts installation will not tell you this. There are a lot of smoke and mirrors in the world of 1911 customization.

 

[tomthebaker]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: athhud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those high dollar tools are a must IF you do this for a living and time=money. They are by no means a requirement. If you have the time and patience, a sheet of glass and an extensive collection of varying sandpaper grits will suffice for the majority of work that you run into with a 1911. I've yet to see a quality sear/hammer combo that REQUIRED work. If you want to get those extremely light triggers, then yes you need the fancy tools, but for a home defense/range gun 4-5 lbs is plenty low enough. Spring selection goes a long way in trigger weight. The "Pros" over-complicate the hell out of simple geometry because it increases business. If you'll take the time to analyze how each part interacts with the other, you'll be capable of building a quality 1911 in no time. </div></div>

Well, after seeing many 1911's that were bubba'd up, I really can't agree. These weapons were designed and maintained by skilled craftsmen, something we are short on today.

A skilled craftsman might do ok without some of his "fancy" tools in a pinch, a novice might do ok with the right tools and a manual, but I couldn't recommend that a novice do without the right tools, a manual, or some serious tutoring.

Would you really like to bear the liability for the advice you gave, if someone followed it and had a serious malfunction, like a gun that goes full-auto? I am not trying to be harsh or oppositional here, I just can't agree with you. Could I drop in a C&S trigger set and test it? Sure, and so could most people, but cutting hammer hooks and checking sear engagement is beyond most "users."

What if the frame holes are a little "off"? Or the original parts in the 1911 are out of spec? Just copying the angles on the oem parts that aren't working properly will give you no end of headache. I bet if I (and I am not even a gunsmith) looked over your 1911s, I would find burrs or rounded upper barrel lugs, peened lower lug, improper barrel throating, or any number of 1911 "ills." Worse than that if you put many rounds downrange. Just because it goes "bang!" doesn't mean it is running right, it could be developing problems that will show up later on.

Gunsmiths earn their money.

 

[RMPSTRAT]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pcschwenke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's my recommendation. Buy a Clark 4 finger main spring and adjust each leg individually to get the desired sear & disconnect or pressure. Most likely the spring is the problem. It may be weak and not holding pressure. Worst case you may need a new hammer and sear. EGA, Ed Brown, Koenig. Cylinder & Slide, and Wilson all make good products. Another good source is Caspian. They make incredible slides and frames.

Buy a khunhausen (sp?) manual and learn about the 1911. Book 1 would be a good place for you to start. It's not very difficult to get one running correctly. You don't need to spend $500/1000 to get this fixed either. PM me if you have questions. I built a lot of 1911s over the past 20 years.

Paul </div></div>

Also seen the four leg springs lose a leg, stick with the standard

 

[Redcreek1]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomthebaker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: athhud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those high dollar tools are a must IF you do this for a living and time=money. They are by no means a requirement. If you have the time and patience, a sheet of glass and an extensive collection of varying sandpaper grits will suffice for the majority of work that you run into with a 1911. I've yet to see a quality sear/hammer combo that REQUIRED work. If you want to get those extremely light triggers, then yes you need the fancy tools, but for a home defense/range gun 4-5 lbs is plenty low enough. Spring selection goes a long way in trigger weight. The "Pros" over-complicate the hell out of simple geometry because it increases business. If you'll take the time to analyze how each part interacts with the other, you'll be capable of building a quality 1911 in no time. </div></div>

Well, after seeing many 1911's that were bubba'd up, I really can't agree. These weapons were designed and maintained by skilled craftsmen, something we are short on today.

A skilled craftsman might do ok without some of his "fancy" tools in a pinch, a novice might do ok with the right tools and a manual, but I couldn't recommend that a novice do without the right tools, a manual, or some serious tutoring.

Would you really like to bear the liability for the advice you gave, if someone followed it and had a serious malfunction, like a gun that goes full-auto? I am not trying to be harsh or oppositional here, I just can't agree with you. Could I drop in a C&S trigger set and test it? Sure, and so could most people, but cutting hammer hooks and checking sear engagement is beyond most "users."

What if the frame holes are a little "off"? Or the original parts in the 1911 are out of spec? Just copying the angles on the oem parts that aren't working properly will give you no end of headache. I bet if I (and I am not even a gunsmith) looked over your 1911s, I would find burrs or rounded upper barrel lugs, peened lower lug, improper barrel throating, or any number of 1911 "ills." Worse than that if you put many rounds downrange. Just because it goes "bang!" doesn't mean it is running right, it could be developing problems that will show up later on.

Gunsmiths earn their money. </div></div>

Very well stated!

I trained under Bill Laughridge at Cylinder and Slide and use a lot of their parts. I have never seen a hammer/sear/dissconnector set that came out of the package ready to go, ever. Bill preps all of his by hand still... Same for the other brands. The hammer hooks always need to be final stoned to true them up and remove tooling ridges and the while the sears have the primary angle cut properly (for most 1911 frames) you still need to cut the secondary relief angle and check engagement in that frame with the external try pins and a good jewelers loop. And, you don’t do that with a piece of glass and fine sand paper, really.

I have a writer here locally who writes for Combat Handguns as well as the other Harris pubs such as Special Weapons, Guns and Weapons, etc and is a 20 year veteran SWAT commander and competition shooter. The magazine recently sent him to Hilton Yam's 10-8 Performance 1911 Comprehensive LE Armorer course. Hilton (who also is a serving Federal Agent) has a rigorous function drill he puts 1911's through to clear them for duty use. Only one 1911 brought by the attendees passed the drill...

So, the moral of the story is the 1911 just isn’t a platform for armatures. And, the vast majority of 1911's out there today are not setup and tuned properly for serious work.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: athhud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those high dollar tools are a must IF you do this for a living and time=money. They are by no means a requirement. If you have the time and patience, a sheet of glass and an extensive collection of varying sandpaper grits will suffice for the majority of work that you run into with a 1911. I've yet to see a quality sear/hammer combo that REQUIRED work. If you want to get those extremely light triggers, then yes you need the fancy tools, but for a home defense/range gun 4-5 lbs is plenty low enough. Spring selection goes a long way in trigger weight. The "Pros" over-complicate the hell out of simple geometry because it increases business. If you'll take the time to analyze how each part interacts with the other, you'll be capable of building a quality 1911 in no time.

As for the drop in parts. There are thousands of parts that will drop into a frame and work flawlessly. Could they be better? Of course they can, but to say that there is no such thing is utter bull shit. Of course a smith that is trying to make a buck on a simple parts installation will not tell you this. There are a lot of smoke and mirrors in the world of 1911 customization. </div></div>

I agree that the fire controls of a 1911 are often over complicated and made out to be a voodoo. But in this litegous world we live in, I make the same statements to people. Not that I am trying to make a buck, but I tell them if they dont fully understand the how, why, where, and what it could get bad quickly. I learned the 1911 a couple of ways, the road of "oh shit I dicked this up again, and then from a 1911 builder after I was tired of seeing UPS at my house couple times a week (I was only working on my guns at the time). The idea that you can cut the primary and secondary angle of a sear with a glass table and sandpaper is ridiculous, likewise how do you propose he get a perfect 90 degree cut on the hammer hooks? Keep in mind the # I shoot for is .020 on the hammer hooks, if I could do that repeatedly with a glass table and sandpaper, I wouldn't have spent the countless dollars on jigs, stones, feeler gauges, magnifying glasses, ruby stones (80 dollar stones), and all the other countless stuff just for the 1911. The angles must be right, period the end. I always tell customers that there are 1911 drop in kits, sure they will drop in, but will they be right????? Maybe maybe not. I have seen more than a few "bubba'ed" 1911 trigger jobs and they are bad.....most times the sear and hammer are toast.

I suggest to the OP that you get a sear, hammer, and sear spring from a reputable shop and have them installed the correct way.

Onto the smoke and mirror part of the post. There are alot of things that get over exaggerated in the 1911 world. With the time I have invested in that one platform, studying, reading, watching, and doing I removed those smoke and mirrors. But ask yourself if you want to sit down and do all of that, just half assed put the part in, or pay someone who has already done that and has the tooling to do so THE RIGHT WAY.

oh and keep the dremel away from pistols.......

 

[Redcreek1]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: athhud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those high dollar tools are a must IF you do this for a living and time=money. They are by no means a requirement. If you have the time and patience, a sheet of glass and an extensive collection of varying sandpaper grits will suffice for the majority of work that you run into with a 1911. I've yet to see a quality sear/hammer combo that REQUIRED work. If you want to get those extremely light triggers, then yes you need the fancy tools, but for a home defense/range gun 4-5 lbs is plenty low enough. Spring selection goes a long way in trigger weight. The "Pros" over-complicate the hell out of simple geometry because it increases business. If you'll take the time to analyze how each part interacts with the other, you'll be capable of building a quality 1911 in no time.

As for the drop in parts. There are thousands of parts that will drop into a frame and work flawlessly. Could they be better? Of course they can, but to say that there is no such thing is utter bull shit. Of course a smith that is trying to make a buck on a simple parts installation will not tell you this. There are a lot of smoke and mirrors in the world of 1911 customization. </div></div>

Stop by sometime when you are in the area and I will be happy to show you most the the major brand parts under magnification and you may change you mind.

Could you just "drop them in" and have them work, sure. But the real question is should you? Or. should you have the parts <span style="text-decoration: underline">properly</span> prepped and fitted? I would opt for the latter. And if you opt for the latter, would you rather have someone with the proper experience do it with the proper tools?

Life is full of choices isnt it...

 

[athhud]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

In no way did I intend to convey the idea that one could cut sear angles with sandpaper..... A big deal was being made about fitting and prepping parts for installation. With the exception of sear work, all parts can be fit to very tight tolerances with a sharpie, glass, and sand paper. As with everything, there is a better level of quality and efficiency that can be achieved with advanced tooling and proper know-how. To say that the latest and greatest tool is a requirement for a reliable build is simply inaccurate. The Springfield GI model is a reliable weapon with very loose tolerances, poorly prepped parts, and far from desirable sear engagement. It performs great for what it is, but is in no way an Ed Brown. However, neither the Springfield or the Brown is unsafe or unreliable. The Ed Brown just performs better. Education is the key to proper 1911 work. Understanding what is required of the finished product dictates what is needed to build it. The OP simply wants a safe reliable firearm, not a racegun!

As for all of the talk about sear polishing.... My point was that a quality sear and hammer will typically function as it should with no modifications. There is no doubt that they can be better by being cut to engage as perfectly as humanly possible. In an ideal world, every 1911 would have a custom sear and hammer fitted to them. The fact of the matter is that hundreds of them leave factories every day with a varying degree of tolerance. These imperfect tolerances are not ideal, but are by no means unsafe.

In no way am I saying that there is not a serious dumbass problem in the 1911 world. There are morons everywhere dremel fucking 1911's into the scrap pile. Their work is not what I'm referring to.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

Understood.....thought you were trying to convey that the ignition components could be cut with sandpaper and glass. The latest and greatest whiz bang tool isnt always needed though.

 

[athhud]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I agree that the fire controls of a 1911 are often over complicated and made out to be a voodoo. But in this litegous world we live in, I make the same statements to people. Not that I am trying to make a buck, but I tell them if they dont fully understand the how, why, where, and what it could get bad quickly. I learned the 1911 a couple of ways, the road of "oh shit I dicked this up again, and then from a 1911 builder after I was tired of seeing UPS at my house couple times a week (I was only working on my guns at the time). The idea that you can cut the primary and secondary angle of a sear with a glass table and sandpaper is ridiculous, likewise how do you propose he get a perfect 90 degree cut on the hammer hooks? Keep in mind the # I shoot for is .020 on the hammer hooks, if I could do that repeatedly with a glass table and sandpaper, I wouldn't have spent the countless dollars on jigs, stones, feeler gauges, magnifying glasses, ruby stones (80 dollar stones), and all the other countless stuff just for the 1911. The angles must be right, period the end. I always tell customers that there are 1911 drop in kits, sure they will drop in, but will they be right????? Maybe maybe not. I have seen more than a few "bubba'ed" 1911 trigger jobs and they are bad.....most times the sear and hammer are toast.

I suggest to the OP that you get a sear, hammer, and sear spring from a reputable shop and have them installed the correct way.

Onto the smoke and mirror part of the post. There are alot of things that get over exaggerated in the 1911 world. With the time I have invested in that one platform, studying, reading, watching, and doing I removed those smoke and mirrors. But ask yourself if you want to sit down and do all of that, just half assed put the part in, or pay someone who has already done that and has the tooling to do so THE RIGHT WAY.

oh and keep the dremel away from pistols.......
</div></div>

I agree completely! My problem is I'm always in the group that wants to "sit down and do all of that". There is no doubt in my mind that smiths earn their pay. There are many people that just assume have someone else do the work and expect it to be done right on the first try. That is where a competent smith comes in. I just get pissed when someone in the business throws around exaggerated dollar figures for tooling and touts that there are complex techniques that a novice could never master..... It ain't rocket science, it's fairly simple mechanics.

 

[Redcreek1]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: athhud</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I agree that the fire controls of a 1911 are often over complicated and made out to be a voodoo. But in this litegous world we live in, I make the same statements to people. Not that I am trying to make a buck, but I tell them if they dont fully understand the how, why, where, and what it could get bad quickly. I learned the 1911 a couple of ways, the road of "oh shit I dicked this up again, and then from a 1911 builder after I was tired of seeing UPS at my house couple times a week (I was only working on my guns at the time). The idea that you can cut the primary and secondary angle of a sear with a glass table and sandpaper is ridiculous, likewise how do you propose he get a perfect 90 degree cut on the hammer hooks? Keep in mind the # I shoot for is .020 on the hammer hooks, if I could do that repeatedly with a glass table and sandpaper, I wouldn't have spent the countless dollars on jigs, stones, feeler gauges, magnifying glasses, ruby stones (80 dollar stones), and all the other countless stuff just for the 1911. The angles must be right, period the end. I always tell customers that there are 1911 drop in kits, sure they will drop in, but will they be right????? Maybe maybe not. I have seen more than a few "bubba'ed" 1911 trigger jobs and they are bad.....most times the sear and hammer are toast.

I suggest to the OP that you get a sear, hammer, and sear spring from a reputable shop and have them installed the correct way.

Onto the smoke and mirror part of the post. There are alot of things that get over exaggerated in the 1911 world. With the time I have invested in that one platform, studying, reading, watching, and doing I removed those smoke and mirrors. But ask yourself if you want to sit down and do all of that, just half assed put the part in, or pay someone who has already done that and has the tooling to do so THE RIGHT WAY.

oh and keep the dremel away from pistols.......
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I agree completely! My problem is I'm always in the group that wants to "sit down and do all of that". There is no doubt in my mind that smiths earn their pay. There are many people that just assume have someone else do the work and expect it to be done right on the first try. That is where a competent smith comes in. I just get pissed when someone in the business throws around exaggerated dollar figures for tooling and touts that there are complex techniques that a novice could never master..... It ain't rocket science, it's fairly simple mechanics. </div></div>

If you think $500 to $1k is exagerated for a basic set of proper tools for the 1911, I would suggest you visit Brownell's website and look at the price for just the Powers Custom stoning fixture and the stones, which will set you back $300. You can also go to the websites for several of the gunsmithing schools and look at the required tool list for the 1911 classes they teach and you will see the cost is in excess of $2,000, and thats just for the basics. Then there are the "wiz bang" tools which are needed in a shop which specializes in 1911's, which will set you back about another $1,500

Feel free to price them out and report back.

As far as techniques, I never claimed in any of my posts they were "complex" But ask yourself, what sets the top 1911 pistolsmiths apart from the average gun plumber? Yes, the answer is experience, which is what I said it takes to do competent top level work. Nothing complex about it.

 

[athhud]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

The Power Custom fixture is overkill for a home user and is $120. Their stoning kit is $15. Where does the other $865 for a trigger job come from?

 

[jeo556]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

I appreciate all the help here guys. No need to go after one another.

The gun came with the original untouched parts so that is what is going back in the gun until I determine if this is something I can do at home or not. I appreciate the knowledge of the the smiths that chimmed in here, and I realize that this isn't something to take lightly. However, I really take joy in getting things done myself and would really love nothing more than knowing the trigger in my gun was done by me. In the event that I decide to tackle this task at home is there a surefire test to know that I've done it correctly?

I noticed that Red Creek Tactical mentioned that there was a test at the armorors course that was pretty strigent, does anyone know what that test entails?

Thanks again gentlemen, I really do appreciate all the help and advice.

 

[pcschwenke]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

Jeo556, buy the manual I mentioned above. Not sure if this is the first or second book. I have both. Here's a link

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=13815...S-A-SHOP-MANUAL

It's one of the best sources available anywhere. Most of 1911 work can be done at home without major fixtures or jigs. Also check out this website:

http://forums.1911forum.com/

You can post question and answers without being harassed.

Paul

 

[Redcreek1]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I appreciate all the help here guys. No need to go after one another.

The gun came with the original untouched parts so that is what is going back in the gun until I determine if this is something I can do at home or not. I appreciate the knowledge of the the smiths that chimmed in here, and I realize that this isn't something to take lightly. However, I really take joy in getting things done myself and would really love nothing more than knowing the trigger in my gun was done by me. In the event that I decide to tackle this task at home is there a surefire test to know that I've done it correctly?

I noticed that Red Creek Tactical mentioned that there was a test at the armorors course that was pretty strigent, does anyone know what that test entails?

Thanks again gentlemen, I really do appreciate all the help and advice. </div></div>


PM me and I will email you Hilton Yam's function check procedures.

The two books by Jerry Kuhnhausen on the 1911, mentioned in a few of the posts, are the standard reference works on and a must have as well. Volume 1 also includes the military and Colt Armorer check procedures, which cover other areas than Hilton's procedure.

You will need the right tools to do the job properly, regardless of what some may tell you.

This excerpt is from Bill Laughridge at Cylinder and Slide shop who teaches 1911 pistolsmithing classes: <span style="font-style: italic">"*Due to the type of metal used In the factory hammer and sear it is not advisable to attempt to perform a trigger job on them. We will cover this discussion in class, however, if you would like to be able to perform the accurate stoning of angles on sears and shortening hammer hooks, you should purchase the Power Jig.”</span>

The Power stoning jig is $157 and the stoning kit is $125, which totals $283, and that’s just to dress out the hammer and sear, nothing else... I also use a 25x microscope with hammer and sear pins on an attached fixture $130, Bob Marvel stoning jig for truing the face of the hammer hooks $156, external try pins to check proper hammer/sear relationship in the individual frame $30, a try thumb safety $25, digital trigger pull gauge $69, various other stones files and polishing bobs to remove tool marks in the frames $150, Kuhnhausen books $30 each, etc…

Some of the folks on this forum should get the list of all the 1911 pistolsmiths form the American Pistolsmith's Guild and send them all an email telling them how stupid they all are for thinking that the tools, fixtures and years of experience are of no value because you can do it all on your kitchen table with some sand paper and a piece of glass and maybe a few other items from Home Depot.

I respect that you want to do it yourself, I’m that way too. Just approach the project with your eyes open and understanding that to really do the job right, which I assume you want to do, will require some knowledge and proper tools or a whole bunch of luck.

I also take issue with those on the forum who are so quick to tell someone they don’t know, to make modifications to a weapon they don’t own, which could prove to be dangerous. Just because one person did it successfully, or thinks they did, doesn’t mean that someone else can.

My advice would always be to learn as much as you can from qualified sources before attempting most weapons modifications.

 

[jeo556]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

Redcreek, thanks for the advice.

As a side note I did a little more research last night and stumbled upon the Cylinder & Slide website and their instructions for 1911 safety check. My pistol passed all checks, does this say anything to you guys that know the inner workings of the 1911, or is this safety check not sufficient?

 

[athhud]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

Red,
You are missing my point completely. Anyone claiming to be a smith should most definitely have those tools at hand! If you are doing trigger jobs for a living, then you want the best of the best tools that will work time and time again. HOWEVER, for someone building one pistol a year, your shopping list is a bit much. He doesn't need an entire stoning kit. He would do just fine with 2 maybe 3 stones and a mediocre stoning jig. A 25x microscope and the try pins most certainly speed the process up, but they aren't necessary for someone who has plenty of time to spare. A digital trigger pull gauge is easily replaced by a hundred different measuring methods. While it is easily the quickest method, it is not a necessity. Even your beloved Power Kustoms guys are selling sandpaper and a stick for parts prep. A stone is definitely quicker to use than sand paper, but both yield the same results when the time is put in. As a smith, you should be using the best tools available. As a one time builder, you can use far less and get fantastic results. The difference is that the smith can turn the product out in hours and the one time builder should spend days, possibly weeks, educating themselves and putting in the time to ensure that they aren't taking shortcuts due to the limitations of their tools.

 

[Redcreek1]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: athhud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Red,
You are missing my point completely. Anyone claiming to be a smith should most definitely have those tools at hand! If you are doing trigger jobs for a living, then you want the best of the best tools that will work time and time again. HOWEVER, for someone building one pistol a year, your shopping list is a bit much. He doesn't need an entire stoning kit. He would do just fine with 2 maybe 3 stones and a mediocre stoning jig. A 25x microscope and the try pins most certainly speed the process up, but they aren't necessary for someone who has plenty of time to spare. A digital trigger pull gauge is easily replaced by a hundred different measuring methods. While it is easily the quickest method, it is not a necessity. Even your beloved Power Kustoms guys are selling sandpaper and a stick for parts prep. A stone is definitely quicker to use than sand paper, but both yield the same results when the time is put in. As a smith, you should be using the best tools available. As a one time builder, you can use far less and get fantastic results. The difference is that the smith can turn the product out in hours and the one time builder should spend days, possibly weeks, educating themselves and putting in the time to ensure that they aren't taking shortcuts due to the limitations of their tools. </div></div>

I dont disagree with you, just feel "to be forwarned is to be forarmed" (meaning: advance warning provides an advantage)

The 1911 is a platform that doesnt suffer fools and while there are a number of "master pistolsmiths" under the auspices of the American Pistolsmiths Guild, there is no such moniker for Glock, M&P's, etc, etc. Just 1911's and revolvers, that it.

So, in summary, if you are going to try to work on your 1911, learn as much as you can first, second - get the proper tools, even if they are not the "top of the line" and be prepared to ruin some parts.

Also, as President of Gadget-a-Hollics Anonymous, I maintain there is no substitute for a cool set of tools, and alot of experience.

 

[athhud]

Re: 1911 Hammer follow when empty

Agreed