Sidearms & Scatterguns 1911 shooter Jinxed with G-17?

[Woodlanddude]

So,
Here is the deal: After 20 years of shooting 1911's almost exclusively, I got a G-17 gen 4 for my 40th birthday. (Thank you wifey ). Now I am impressed with the function of the gun and it has obvious good accuracy. However, my precision when shooting the gun seems jinxed. I can shoot quite satisfactory groups with it at 15 yards (about 2-3 inches in diameter), however the groups are consistantly left a couple inches and a couple inches high, no matter what I try. Dry firing yields no obvious large flaw in my pull, other than an ever so slight movement right upon the break. One handed shooting is a little worse high and left. Now the clincher is when shooting from a table/bench at 100 yards using a 2 hand grip and bags/rest, the pistol seems to be pretty well zero'd in. Has my 2 decades of 1911's left me unable to shoot a glock on the principal(J/K), or what am I probably fouling up here?(cant we all get along?) Should my grip be different on the glock? (By the way, I tried both the M backstrap and the bare gun with about equal results. My hands are not big enough for large grips.) I usually shoot left hand below and thumbs pressed together up to get a quick locked grip without hitting my 1911 safety or slide stop(an old Rob Leatham method). I notice when rapidly firing the gun I get groups more around the center of the target if this helps any. It seems the harder I try to shoot it accurately and slowly, the worse off high and left I get. Suggestions on corrections to try would be appreciated. I do not wish to adjust the sights when I know they appear to be aligned right when the gun is benched.
Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[sinister]

Could be you're not used to the trigger. Is yours a 4.5 or 5.5 pounder?

The 4.5 is lighter but has a little creep-squish or roll, while the 5.5 is heavier but seems to break cleaner (for me).

You can change out the firing pin safety spring for a little lighter first-stage take-up, and change the trigger spring for a faster break.

Not an uncommon observation for shooters familiar with the 1911. My brother (a career cop) doesn't like shooting a Glock in deliberate slow-fire but says it's acceptable for competition requiring close-in rapid shooting.

 

[Metal Gear]

I much prefer the 1911 over the modern polymer pistols. For me the 1911 is a natural pointer and just feels right. For what it's worth when I go from shooting my 1911 to shooting my Glock, I always shoot a bit high and to the left as well. I think it will just take some getting used to the trigger and grip angle of the Glock for you and over time you will get used to it.

 

[Woodlanddude]

Stock set up. I believe 5.5 lbs. Pulling with center of end finger pad. 200 rounds downrange in first two days trying to see wtf I am doing wrong. I am surrounded by 1911 shooters here, so no immediate help.

 

[alpine44]

You CANNOT shoot a Glock like a 1911 and expect to be happy with the results.

Some key points for shooting a Glock:

The web between thumb and trigger finger needs to be as high on the grip and as snug against the grip as possible. You may have to cant your holster a little towards the back compared to your 1911 to get that master grip established quickly. HIGH and SNUG is all you worry about since there is no thumb safety or grip safety to mess with.

Before the support hand joins the shooting hand, roll the wrist of the support hand forward so that the thumb is in line with the forearm and points at the target. Bury the gun into the support hand as deeply as possible with the thumb of the support hand pointing straight forward at the target and almost touching the slide. The thumb of the shooting hand goes right behind it, also pointing a the target. Think about hiding as much of the gun as possible in your hands.

The forward rotation of the support hand wrist may also allow you to get some meat of the support palm behind the back-strap of the grip. The more, the better. This is limited by how much grip real estate your shooting hand leaves.

The web of your shooting hand pushes the top of the grip forward, the fingers of the support hand pull the bottom of the grip backwards. Both thumbs point at the target.

I keep the fingers of the shooting hand relatively relaxed and use the support hand as a C-lamp to tighten everything up. Additionally you can use your pectorals to squeeze the gun between your palms. The goal is to have the shooting hand work the trigger and support the top of the gun with the web from the rear but not jerk the grip around during trigger pull. (BTW: Save your time and money effing around with the trigger, learn how to drive the gun).

Now go and shoot at the berm. Do not try to hit anything specific just play with how to grip the gun until it snaps back naturally to the original POA after recoil. This is your "NPA" for a Glock.

A 1911 can be shot bulls eye or duel style with your support hand stuck in your pocket. The much, much lighter frame of a Glock needs to be "driven" with the opposing forces of your support hand and the web between thumb and index finger of your shooting hand and. Roll your wrist forward as much as possible. Do not "heel" a Glock with the bottom of your shooting hand or your shots will go high.

What if we need to shoot single-handed? Here are some things that make this less frustrating.

Curl the thumb of your shooting hand down on the ledge molded into the grip.

Roll the gun inward towards the other side of your body so your hand is positioned like when you point at something with out a gun (I call this "half Gangsta"). Do not worry about the cant; it does not matter on a handgun where the sight line is so close to the bore axis.

Make a fist with your support hand and press that against the pectoral of your shooting arm.

"Roll" the trigger back smoothly like with a DA revolver. Do not try to prep the trigger and to time the shot.

Now, drop that computer mouse (or tablet), grab that ugly plastic piece of Austrian engineering, and put some lead down range. Because if you want to shoot well, you need to - well - shoot.

Hope that helps. Please ask if something is not clear. Once my wife comes home I will have her take some pictures that may be worth more than all the words.

 

[Woodlanddude]

AWESOME REPLY! ^^^^^^

I have been dry firing for a couple hours and am seeing definite improvement on the feel of the trigger with the above instructions. Your synopsis tells me there were several things I was doing wrong for this pistol!! I will try these changes out tomorrow for sure at the range with another box or 2 of shells, but I am optimistic. You addressed several things that I was doing as instructed to do differently on the 1911 that I can see a big difference in with this Glock. Especially with gripping with more pressure from the off hand, and not trying to "bullseye shoot" when single hand shooting. This pistol does NOT like the old rubber ball slow squeeze/pressure till break with a 1911 style bullseye grip. That gave me the worst results, putting me at the top left of a sheet of paper with center hold at 25 yards. Photos never hurt, if you would post some, and with all the bs I was trying to sort through on several other sites, I think that this may help a lot of guys that are also "glocking the trigger". Many guys have given up and are sliding their sights way right to comp. their bad form. I will try to post pics of the differences in the next couple of days. There is nothing special about the gun other than it is a FDE version of the GEN 4. That is why I bought it and like it, it is what it is for better and worse! This is both my first 9mm and first striker fired handgun. I have shot 1911s when I can since I was 20, learning from my Dad, who was an MP during the Berlin crisis. He had a trophy for 2nd place from Perry for service pistol. (my other pistols are 1911's ) I do have a set of Ameriglo I-dot pro's in hand waiting for me to put them on to help my sight picture. I wanted to square this problem away prior to changing anything with the gun. I will be learning to shoot this pistol stock, as intended otherwise. A (-) connector installed by an armorer would be the only change I am considering at a later point, when I am straightened out. 200 rounds in 2 days already, I will absolutely keep shooting it. Thanks for the help!!

 

[alpine44]

Here ya go.

The details depend on your anatomy and the situation (If I peek around a corner in a confined space for example, I go more "weaverish") but the photos should point you in the right direction.

EDIT: I put some text in the photos. In case the text is too small: The first photo where the arms are parallel with the bore axis is the more desirable position.

 

[alpine44]

And a motivational video for frequent practice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYyxbFn20GE

Around the 0:20 mark are some closeups showing the positioning of both hands. If you have arms like this guy you can have the slide a little higher and the thumbs a little further back but the basic idea is the same.

 

[Hootiewho]

Dryfire Brother. Dryfire with an empty case on the front sight (you'll need help & be sure the pistol is clear). Get to the point you can press the trigger straight to the rear & not drop the case. Some shooters do better with a bit more finger on a glock trigger than you would on a 1911. You cannot shoot a Glock per say "like a 1911", but you can shoot it as good as a 1911. It is just different and you have a lot of time on the 1911 that you'll need to work out of the 1911 trigger thinking & learn the Glock.

I know cross posting is usually frowned upon, but the best person I have ever seen break the glock trigger pull down is a dude nsmed Surf on this forum, in this thread...

Glock Trigger Press [Archive] - pistol-forum.com

He had some outstanding videos on youtube but pulled them some time back. You may be able to contact him and get the video file.

Grouping to the left is very common for right handed glock shooters. Usually, esp when trying for tight groups/precise shots with a 1911 they loosen their grip a bit and baby the trigger. You cannot do this with a glock. You have to keep a somewhat firm grip. Try for yourself, dryfire with a good tight grip and then a loose grip. You will see the muzzle dip then go right (for right handed shooter) with the loose grip. So experiment with a good solid grip and the amount of finger you have on the trigger. Keep dryfiring, it will eventually click

 

[sinister]

The details depend on your anatomy and the situation (If I peek around a corner in a confined space for example, I go more "weaverish") but the photos should point you in the right direction.

EDIT: I put some text in the photos. In case the text is too small: The first photo where the arms are parallel with the bore axis is the more desirable position.

Assuming his hands fit differently (as the photos appear to be a Gen 3 as opposed to a Gen 4) he may or may not need to hold/point the pistol differently than with an M1911A1 -- I find the Gen 4 a whole lot more user-friendly than previous Glock frames. I tend to shoot WAY high using a (longer front-to-bacl) Gen 3 G17.

 

[alpine44]

Assuming his hands fit differently (as the photos appear to be a Gen 3 as opposed to a Gen 4) he may or may not need to hold/point the pistol differently than with an M1911A1 -- I find the Gen 4 a whole lot more user-friendly than previous Glock frames. I tend to shoot WAY high using a (longer front-to-bacl) Gen 3 G17.

The Glock in the photo is the Gen2 G23 I had pulled out of the IWB holster and unloaded for the pictures. Bone stock except True Dot night sights.

Gen4 Glocks are definitely more adaptable to different hand sizes but they are still Glocks and not a 1911 in terms of dimensions and weight distribution.

I shoot about 200 rounds weekly in defensive scenarios involving drawing from concealment, moving, use of cover, and shooting from compromised positions. I purposely change between various Glocks, SIGs and a Keltec P11 (BUG). We also swap guns among each other and this way 1911, M&P, CZ, FN, H&K (including the P9 squeeze cocker), and almost anything else that goes bang are thrown into the mix.

When our instructors ask why we did not get hits, they do not take any BS about the gun. Sight alignment is sight alignment and trigger control is trigger control regardless of make or model. Even if your front sight falls off (which has happened) you stay in the fight and make do with what you got left (i.e. the edges of the slide). The Indian and not the arrow is responsible for hits or misses.

Initially, I may be a little slower with a "new" gun but two or three magazines later that difference has shrunk to being insignificant. The way I draw and drive the gun is going to change though depending on the peculiar design characteristics.

Here is a video of an "old school" guy shooting Glock and 1911 side-by-side. If you look carefully (camera angle is not great) you'll see that his grip changes depending on what gun he shoots. It has to if the grip ergonomics of the gun are different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly5UnR7pPtk

As you shoot different platforms, your brain is going to generate a database of how to handle the different tools efficiently. In an analogy, a contractor is not going to consciously obsess about transitioning from a framing hammer to a sledge hammer. He grabs the tool and his experience takes care of the rest subconsciously. He hits the fence post just as squarely as he hits a nail on the first swing. He MIGHT grab the handles slightly different than his colleague but he is CERTAINLY going to grab the sledgehammer different than the framing hammer.

 

[bkw1911]

This is very common almost every single time from a 1911 shooter. You're most likely using more of the tip of your finger like most do for a rifle or single stage trigger. It causes impacts to the left. You need to choke up on the trigger to at least the first crease of your finger if not a little more and you should see it center up more.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[alpine44]

This is very common almost every single time from a 1911 shooter. You're most likely using more of the tip of your finger like most do for a rifle or single stage trigger. It causes impacts to the left. You need to choke up on the trigger to at least the first crease of your finger if not a little more and you should see it center up more.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

Agree that one should experiment how much finger each gun needs but the problems often come from the rest of the shooting hand and not the trigger finger. Many people shoot the baby Glocks better than the full size because the small grip offers less leverage to mess things up by "milking", "heeling", etc.

This http://www.shootersupply.net/site/Files/Target Analysis Handout.pdf analysis pretty much applies to all handguns regardless of what gun favors certain conditions.

Now, I am off to the range to put some rounds through the barrel and see what can be improved.

 

[Woodlanddude]

Great motivational video. The one thing I notice is when he is holding his rear thumb up where I was he is tending to hit left about where I would have been doing the same. I can only strive to get that fast with the glock though, lol. We will see in September at the Trijicon/PNTC match. The second vid is pretty good, but I am having to change my grip more than him. I have smaller hands than most of you guys in general, so it looks a lot different on the grip change for me. Hi Sinister, I still remember shooting with your club a couple years back!! I really enjoyed my time out in Utah, and had a blast shooting with you guys!!! Just too hot out there for this hillbilly to stay for long!!! Keep the good info rolling guys!! Thanks! Can't wait till ammo 30 to hit the range!

 

[alpine44]

Just played with other detail that may help.

I do not like the "tactical turtle" stance especially after picking up multifocal glasses recently. However, while holding your face straight towards the target you can still lift the shoulders up and push them forward. That brings the forearms and gun further up into your line of sight and also locks the shoulder joints. Both arms are now like a spring that brings the gun back quickly on target after each shot. I forgot the timer to take split times but the magazines were empty awfully fast without sacrificing accuracy. You may want to give that a try.

 

[Woodlanddude]

I already raise my shoulders and push my elbows out a little when shooting for speed from previous shooting experience, it helps a lot. I have had mixed results this weekend. I dry fired a pile and shot another 100 Friday evening with a final target looking good with a 3" group centered at noon over the bullseye with 4 shots leaning left and 1 right. 2 others I pinkey fingered out low and left. I went out again today and had about 70% of my shots flying left and 30% where they should be. After having a glock armorer install the new sights I am simply left now. I spent all day slow firing though. I may have overconcentrated, and overdrilled today on this as I was agrivated at the end of the session and throwing a few shots way further off than I should have. One good note to take away though, the one handed shooting changes have paid off. I can shoot the gun straight that way 80% of the time. It must be something I'm doing wrong with the 2 handed grip more so than the pull of the trigger. Will keep at it. By the way, I like the new Ameriglo I-dot pros a LOT.

 

[Woodlanddude]

Well 700 rounds into this gun I have halved my problem and am hitting 3-4" just left most times at 25 yards. Still I cannot completely rid myself of this issue. Have dry fired a lot, but am a little frustrated to say the least. Had Brock shoot the pistol and he ran it just fine. I think my small hands may be a large part of the problem at this point. Will keep trying.

 

[bkw1911]

Well 700 rounds into this gun I have halved my problem and am hitting 3-4" just left most times at 25 yards. Still I cannot completely rid myself of this issue. Have dry fired a lot, but am a little frustrated to say the least. Had Brock shoot the pistol and he ran it just fine. I think my small hands may be a large part of the problem at this point. Will keep trying.

I haven't read through all the posts to check, but has someone else tried shooting it to see if it is on? I was able to on one glock just push the rear sight easily out with my finger. Plastic sights aren't perfect and they can move.

 

[Woodlanddude]

Yes. And it was right on for him. Ameriglo sights installed by glock armorer with pusher and calipers showed center installation of original and replacements.

 

[bkw1911]

Hmm, very hard to diagnose without seeing you shoot. Maybe worth a try to post a top and both sides view and trigger position of your hand grip and then a photo of two handed grip.

 

[Winny]

Just thinking outside the box a little bit. Why don't you drift your sights a hair to compensate for the 2-3 inches at 25 yrds? I know that many people don't like to do it, but it may just be a much quicker fix to your problem and more cost effective then sending more rounds downrange trying to fix the last 2-3 inch problem.

 

[Unknown]

Well 700 rounds into this gun I have halved my problem and am hitting 3-4" just left most times at 25 yards. Still I cannot completely rid myself of this issue. Have dry fired a lot, but am a little frustrated to say the least. Had Brock shoot the pistol and he ran it just fine. I think my small hands may be a large part of the problem at this point. Will keep trying.

If you are right handed, shooting a glock to the left is pretty common. Here is a way to find out why this may be happening to you. Take your pointing and middle finger from your left hand, and grip them in your right hand as you would grip your pistol, with your right trigger finger extended forward, as if it were running above the trigger area along the slide of your pistol. Now, as you simulate pulling the trigger with your right hand, most people feel the tendons of their right hand squeezing on their two left fingers.

The reason why this happens is simple...the human hand is designed to close to grasp an object using all four fingers and thumb. When you grasp an object (like a pistol) with only some of your fingers, and close the trigger finger, it is only natural for the other fingers to close along with the trigger finger. Separating out the trigger finger from the others simply takes practice, as you training the hand to do something it wasn't designed to do.

I found that merely knowing what was going on with my fingers and tendons made a huge difference.

The glock's overtravel usually also causes most shooters to dip the front sight a bit, causing low hits.