Suppressors 1st 1911

[johngfoster]

Considering getting my first 1911. Seems like such a lot of choices.

Priorities for me:
-Reliable
-Quality firearm & parts
-Accurate
-Price

Intended uses:
-Self defence
-plinking
-possible concealed carry, but not main intended use
-possible competition down the road but not a high priority

Please help point me in the right direction. Some questions, but not only questions: which brand/make, full-size frame vs compact, other things I should be considering?

Please educate me. Thanks for the input.

 

[Silverbullet2]

Re: 1st 1911

I'd get a Springfiels Loaded if I was on a budget. Honest shooter for the 6-700 range. Great base gun, JPG

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: 1st 1911

springfields are hard to beat for the price, you get a reliable pistol with a awesome factory backing it, their customer service is top notch and you can send the gun to the custom shop for upgrades whenever you want.

 

[bryanZ06]

Re: 1st 1911

Hard to go wrong with the Springer Loaded for the reasons stated above.

 

[Oodin]

Re: 1st 1911

I've got a Springfield Loaded on order for my first 1911, so consider that another +1.

 

[NY700]

Re: 1st 1911

Not to hijack the thread but I'm looking at my first 1911 as well. Is a 4" barrel too much of a compromise. I would like something comfortable to carry and I've read many posts and articles saying most 3" 1911's are touchy and I'm thinking 5" is a littl e much

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: 1st 1911

The 1911 is best in all steel, a bushing barrel, and in a 5" length, only.

I wouldn't recommend them to anyone who doesn't feel up to tinkering with them, and spending some serious time and money working on them.

This should be required reading for anyone who wants to get into carrying one:
http://www.10-8performance.com/1911_Duty_Use.html

I recently took LAV's 1911 Operators class... a few key points from it:
1) The 1911 is an enthusiasts gun. If you don't want to tinker with it, don't buy one.
2) A $3k 1911 (5" steel, .45ACP, with a bushing) is just barely as reliable as a $400 Glock.
3) Most major manufacturers have forgotten more about the 1911 in the last hundred years than they've learned about them.
4) You can spend big money on a 1911 and still have problems with it.
5) Magazines, extractors, and springs are all disposable wear items. If you don't stay on top of them, they will bite you in the ass.
6) If you know what you're doing, the 1911 can offer something really no other firearm can (essentially the trigger).

I like 1911's, I want to own a few, I have no desire to carry one again, though.

 

[dlc356]

Re: 1st 1911

I love my TRP. Nothing wrong with the Loaded either. That said, my daily carry is a Commander size Colt. As a side note, I shot a bud's slightly massaged STI Spartan a few weeks ago and it was really nice. IIRC, he'd done a trigger job and swapped the main & recoil springs to I want to say around 14#. Standard loads with a lot less felt recoil. It's amazing what a set of springs can do.

My next 1911 is probably going to be a STI Trojan.

 

[SpenceDaddy]

Re: 1st 1911

If i were you i would wait until money wasn't a big deciding factor and not cheap out, you get what you pay for.

 

[dlc356]

Re: 1st 1911

^ I didn't see the price concern... Best bang for the buck IMO is the Spartan.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: 1st 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 1911 is best in all steel, a bushing barrel, and in a 5" length, only.

I wouldn't recommend them to anyone who doesn't feel up to tinkering with them, and spending some serious time and money working on them.

This should be required reading for anyone who wants to get into carrying one:
http://www.10-8performance.com/1911_Duty_Use.html

I recently took LAV's 1911 Operators class... a few key points from it:
1) The 1911 is an enthusiasts gun. If you don't want to tinker with it, don't buy one.
2) A $3k 1911 (5" steel, .45ACP, with a bushing) is just barely as reliable as a $400 Glock.
3) Most major manufacturers have forgotten more about the 1911 in the last hundred years than they've learned about them.
4) You can spend big money on a 1911 and still have problems with it.
5) Magazines, extractors, and springs are all disposable wear items. If you don't stay on top of them, they will bite you in the ass.
6) If you know what you're doing, the 1911 can offer something really no other firearm can (essentially the trigger).

I like 1911's, I want to own a few, I have no desire to carry one again, though. </div></div>

having friends in HRT and a few other units that still use them, they can be a very reliable carry gun. the MARSOC guys LOVE them, but they require upkeep the marsoc and HRT guns get major overhauls once a year with all new springs, etc. but the guns just run and run. I fully intend to have a maitnance schedule on mine. do i feel comfortable carrying them? yes, are they the be all end all pistol? hell no. i think everyone falls into a 1911 cuz they think of them as "everyone needs at least 1 1911" there is a cult following to them just like any other gun. If you want one go for it but just know before hand what you are getting into.

 

[Metonymy]

Re: 1st 1911

10 days ago I picked up my first 1911.

It's a Springfield Loaded SS.

 

[Downzero]

Re: 1st 1911

I would choose the STI Spartan.

I think the 1911 is indeed the "end all, be all" pistol, that most complaints about reliability are due to ignorance or stupidity (not wear, because most people don't shoot enough to wear anything out), etc.

I do, however, concur with people that it's an enthusiasts' gun. If you don't care and will settle for second best, feel free to buy a Glock, or worse, a double action pistol, which will offer nothing except enhanced capacity at the expense of ergonomics.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: 1st 1911

ergonomics are a individually dependant thing though, and there are people who shoot a 1911 well and some who do not. also i would like to see a 600 dollar out of the box 1911 do what a 600 dollar glock can do out of the water, sand, mud, etc. it is NOT by any means the be all end all pistol. never was nor will be. it is a brilliant design and a pistol that has stood the test of time but even to those who have had HUGE impacts on the 1911 platform they all speak of it as a enthusiasts pistol and all reccomend carrying something else for hte most part. if the 1911 makes you happy by all means shoot it, i have 2 but i also have polymer frame pistols etc, that see just as much use. the 1911 has its place in my safe but it doesn't replace everything else

 

[Downzero]

Re: 1st 1911

I'll take a 600 dollar 1911 and put it up against any Glock. I bet I can give it to even a random person off the street, and he can deliver shots faster and more accurately with the 1911 than any Glock. Ergonomics are the key to pistol accuracy, regardless of whether someone is experienced or not.

I also have polymer frame pistols but I'm really starting to wonder why.

In fact, give me a $400 1911 and I bet I can get it to run against a Glock, no problem. Just give me some decent magazines and make sure the gun is a .45. I bet I can do just fine even with a Rock Island.

The idea that a 1911 has to be super loose, tight, and/or expensive to be reliable is utter nonsense. There are some nice guns out there, but it need not be that expensive to run.

 

[ToddM]

Re: 1st 1911

While I've never done the test, I remember reading that the glock grip angle was actually designed for people that had never shot a handgun before or at least significantly and that the general consensus was that for those people the glock pointed better. It's only for people that grew up on other platforms that feel the glock points "weird".

I'm with Joe on this one, I love my 1911's but you take 10 bone stock no mods 1911 under $1000 and put them in sand, water, dirt, dust, crap and neglect and abuse them against 10 glocks....the glocks will win 99 times out of 100. If you need a gun you can throw in the bed of a farm truck and forget about it for a year and still need it to work, it's a glock.

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: 1st 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll take a 600 dollar 1911 and put it up against any Glock. I bet I can give it to even a random person off the street, and he can deliver shots faster and more accurately with the 1911 than any Glock. Ergonomics are the key to pistol accuracy, regardless of whether someone is experienced or not.</div></div>

BS. Accuracy is related to the barrel locking up consistently with the sights on the pistol, and the user being able to get the trigger to break without moving those sights once they're on the target. Ergo's has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I also have polymer frame pistols but I'm really starting to wonder why.

In fact, give me a $400 1911 and I bet I can get it to run against a Glock, no problem. Just give me some decent magazines and make sure the gun is a .45. I bet I can do just fine even with a Rock Island.

The idea that a 1911 has to be super loose, tight, and/or expensive to be reliable is utter nonsense. There are some nice guns out there, but it need not be that expensive to run. </div></div>

Everyone who builds 1911's, or maintained them at a unit level disagrees with you. I might consider that a clue.

 

[The_Hoff]

Re: 1st 1911

I personally love the 1911 platform, and i'm not to fond of the glock. however each has its strong and weak points.

that being said my 1st 1911 was a llama 1911 clone (worth 2-300) and I run it in competition lol.

Its not the nicest looking or most expensive but it hits its mark.

I would however get a rock island or other mil spec clone. the llamas are not 100% mil spec so a lot of parts are not interchangeable or need to be fitted.

 

[JonnyHawes]

Re: 1st 1911

Ive got a S&W 1911 and Ive never had any issues out of mine. They just released the new "E" Series which has my finance hiding the checkbook from me haha

I prefer the fullsize model, but I guess that would be personal preference. It does get heavy after a long day carrying it.

My next 1911 will be a Smith, I love it.

 

[Downzero]

Re: 1st 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
BS. Accuracy is related to the barrel locking up consistently with the sights on the pistol, and the user being able to get the trigger to break without moving those sights once they're on the target. Ergo's has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.</div></div>

I'm not saying you're wrong, we're just talking past each other. I was not suggesting that ergonomics had some bearing on mechanical accuracy. In fact, I think even discussing mechanical accuracy beyond that which is necessary for a fighting pistol is a complete waste of time, although I recognize that there are others who disagree with me on that.

You did say something that gets to what I'm talking about, actually, and contradicted your later statement. You said, "and the user being able to get the trigger to break without moving those sights once they're on the target."

There is a direct causal relationship between ergonomics and a user's ability to make the trigger break without moving the sights. If the grip is not of a shape where a human being can comfortably keep the gun in a steady position, or one that cannot be gripped consistently, or is slippery, or if the sights are too small for a person to acquire a consistent sight picture, or if the trigger is so heavy, gritty, or long that it takes a particularly high amount of concentration to keep the sights from moving while pressing the trigger, only the most professional of users will ever shoot that gun accurately.

I've spent enough time trying to train new shooters to realize that these factors are the most important for practical accuracy. In fact, the one thing that makes new shooters stay interested and keep progressing is seeing results. Most new shooters don't see results with pistols that have a grip too fat for their hand, too much recoil for them to not flinch, or too heavy a trigger for them to deliver the shots into the black from the first shot.

It is a direct contradiction to suggest that ergonomics don't have anything to do with accuracy, but not moving the sights when the user is on target is somehow not related to that fact. Doing so negates the most important benefit of a single action design--a trigger pull that makes it easier for the user to keep the sights on target when pressing the trigger to the rear. I hope once you re-read your own statement, you'll agree that you've contradicted yourself.

Any suggestion that "everyone" believes anything about maintaining pistols should be rejected outright, and even if "everyone" did believe something, they could still be wrong.

I've really tried to like every other type of pistol. I avoided the 1911 for my first few years shooting. I thought it was antiqued, expensive, unreliable, and outdated. I later discovered that I was completely and utterly wrong. There have been no substantial improvements in pistol designs since. The focus has been on the wrong things, like capacity at the expense of an ergonomic grip, or perceived safety at the expense of a smooth, light, and short trigger pull.

You're welcome to disagree with my opinions, but it is disingenuous to suggest that somehow yours are better than mine because they're repeatedly regurgitated on the internet. If the 1911 wasn't a reliable design, I would be carrying and shooting something else.

The problem is that there are so many kinds of 1911s, and many of them are so far out of spec (due to tolerance stacking and a general disregard for the specs in the first place) that the 1911 has earned an undeserving reputation for being unreliable. A good, well made 1911 will be reliable, accurate, and easy for even the newest shooter to put shots on target accurately. A crappy, out of spec, poorly fitted 1911 will be a nightmare.

Furthermore, most people maintaining guns as armorers are dealing with very high round count guns. Most users will never put that kind of wear on any pistol. I probably shoot 20,000 centerfire rounds a year or so. I know I'm the exception (although I know people who shoot many many more than I do). Most users, even pretty hardcore users, shoot 5,000 rounds a year max. As long as you replace springs every few years and other parts as they break, nearly any gun will hold up to that for a long time.

 

[cvedrick]

Re: 1st 1911

"Considering getting my first 1911. Seems like such a lot of choices.

Priorities for me:
-Reliable
-Quality firearm & parts
-Accurate
-Price"

OK in order,

Reliability:

You will need to change out your recoil spring every 10,000-15,000 rounds ($20.00)and at least check your trigger main and firing pin springs. These are the only expected wear items and unless you are double charging your loads or buying cheap ammo (white box, green stripe) Your new pistol can and will last for 500,000 rounds with regular cleaning and minimal lubrication (A broken in SS model only needs 3 drops of oil if that, CS needs a protective coating)

Quality firearm and parts

SIG
Springfield
Taurus
Para

This is in order of expected pricing, not quality, they are pretty much equal in basic quality.

Accuracy:

Before you buy it, cycle the slide, is it gritty or smooth. Try to get the slide to move side to side, try to do the same with the barrel.

(it has nothing to do with accuracy, but do take a look at the feedramp a smooth shiny feedramp prevents Failure To Feeds) (If yo haqve a dremel, you caqn Fluff -N- Buff your hood throat and feedramp yourself)

Pricing:
you can get a basic (GI) in Springfield, Para or Taurus in the $500 to $600 range. I would figure to add a SA extended magwell ($75 + fitting) and a S&A high rise grip safety ($30.00 + fitting) before too long especially if you are like me and have "man" hands. Believe me you will want that hi-rise beavertail the first time you get "hammer bite" which being a noob will probably happen in the first 2 boxes you run it through.

I admit some models have both features, but I do not like springfields minimal thumb safeties, the huge lump on their grip safeties or their cluttering of a good design with ambidexterous safeties. (If I am shooting lefty, my right hand is buggered and I am in a situation where I DO NOT need a thumb safety) As far as target sights go, all you need is the front sight, target sights snag, slow you down and absorb your money.


"Intended uses:
-Self defence
-plinking
-possible concealed carry, but not main intended use
-possible competition down the road but not a high priority"

Uses:
Any 1911 will take care of plinking and self defence, concealment is a bit rougher as it is 1) heavy and 2) a full size handgun.

With the two changes listed above you can compete in IPSC or other action comps, probably not place first, but also not unheard of and if you really really get into it you can always go out and buy a $3000 pistol. (FYI one of my buddies uses an off the shelf para, his kid placed 3rd the first time he went out, would have been 1st for speed and accuracy, but he kept fouling)

If you think you might want to get into "Wild Bunch" you are forced to use the GI model.

Forget about undersize frames, might as well get a chick gun as a shortened 1911. John Browning was a friggin genius and he went with 5" for a reason.

Another +2 freebie for you GET CHIP MCCORMIC SHOOTING STAR MAGAZINES. Get them in SS, get them with the optional base pads. I kid you not, do not even think about any other mag. Get them!

 

[cvedrick]

Re: 1st 1911

One addendum I do not mention K!^b@r deliberately, for one they are out of your price range and for two you don't p#$$ me off.

(Actually I would have to hate you with an all consuming passion and a stong desire to wizz on your plot in order to recommend one to you) That and the fact that the ones I have seen leave their factory with silly stupid and easily corrected mistakes that would have taken 2 minutes to fix if their QC department was awake

If you have money for one go to STI, or if you want SS check out Caspian or even Foster Industries.

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: 1st 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
BS. Accuracy is related to the barrel locking up consistently with the sights on the pistol, and the user being able to get the trigger to break without moving those sights once they're on the target. Ergo's has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.</div></div>

I'm not saying you're wrong, we're just talking past each other. I was not suggesting that ergonomics had some bearing on mechanical accuracy. In fact, I think even discussing mechanical accuracy beyond that which is necessary for a fighting pistol is a complete waste of time, although I recognize that there are others who disagree with me on that.

You did say something that gets to what I'm talking about, actually, and contradicted your later statement. You said, "and the user being able to get the trigger to break without moving those sights once they're on the target."

There is a direct causal relationship between ergonomics and a user's ability to make the trigger break without moving the sights. If the grip is not of a shape where a human being can comfortably keep the gun in a steady position, or one that cannot be gripped consistently, or is slippery, or if the sights are too small for a person to acquire a consistent sight picture, or if the trigger is so heavy, gritty, or long that it takes a particularly high amount of concentration to keep the sights from moving while pressing the trigger, only the most professional of users will ever shoot that gun accurately.</div></div>

If you can't suck up a different feel than you "prefer" your fundamentals suck. It's not that difficult to hold a pistol steady and press the trigger without moving the sights, regardless of how it "feels". This BS about someone not being able to shoot a Glock because it's more angled is just stupid. Two of the most accurate pistols ever built have aggressive grip angles too (Sig P210, HK P7).

If you can only shoot a 1911 well, your fundamentals are flawed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've spent enough time trying to train new shooters to realize that these factors are the most important for practical accuracy. In fact, the one thing that makes new shooters stay interested and keep progressing is seeing results. Most new shooters don't see results with pistols that have a grip too fat for their hand, too much recoil for them to not flinch, or too heavy a trigger for them to deliver the shots into the black from the first shot.

It is a direct contradiction to suggest that ergonomics don't have anything to do with accuracy, but not moving the sights when the user is on target is somehow not related to that fact. Doing so negates the most important benefit of a single action design--a trigger pull that makes it easier for the user to keep the sights on target when pressing the trigger to the rear. I hope once you re-read your own statement, you'll agree that you've contradicted yourself.</div></div>

I haven't contradicted myself. If you want to suggest that "some shooters, who don't have good fundamentals, will shoot a 1911 better than a Glock" I can't disagree.

I've been present when LAV shot a better score on the famed "Humber" with a red dot equipped Glock than a highly tuned 1911. I also shot the same drill (side by side) better with a G19 than a Les Baer Super Tac. How is that possible if ergo's are so important?

LAV has small hands, I have huge hands. I press the trigger with the joint of my finger, LAV presses with the pad, etc.

If you can't adapt your grip/technique a little bit to make another pistol work, you're not that good.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any suggestion that "everyone" believes anything about maintaining pistols should be rejected outright, and even if "everyone" did believe something, they could still be wrong.

I've really tried to like every other type of pistol. I avoided the 1911 for my first few years shooting. I thought it was antiqued, expensive, unreliable, and outdated. I later discovered that I was completely and utterly wrong. There have been no substantial improvements in pistol designs since. <span style="font-weight: bold"> The focus has been on the wrong things, like capacity at the expense of an ergonomic grip,</span> or perceived safety at the expense of a smooth, light, and short trigger pull.</div></div>

So, you're suggesting that how a pistol feels in the end users hand is more critical than it's capacity? Wow...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're welcome to disagree with my opinions, but it is disingenuous to suggest that somehow yours are better than mine because they're repeatedly regurgitated on the internet. If the 1911 wasn't a reliable design, I would be carrying and shooting something else.

The problem is that there are so many kinds of 1911s, and many of them are so far out of spec (due to tolerance stacking and a general disregard for the specs in the first place) that the 1911 has earned an undeserving reputation for being unreliable. A good, well made 1911 will be reliable, accurate, and easy for even the newest shooter to put shots on target accurately. A crappy, out of spec, poorly fitted 1911 will be a nightmare.

Furthermore, most people maintaining guns as armorers are dealing with very high round count guns. Most users will never put that kind of wear on any pistol. I probably shoot 20,000 centerfire rounds a year or so. I know I'm the exception (although I know people who shoot many many more than I do). Most users, even pretty hardcore users, shoot 5,000 rounds a year max. As long as you replace springs every few years and other parts as they break, nearly any gun will hold up to that for a long time.</div></div>

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: 1st 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cvedrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Considering getting my first 1911. Seems like such a lot of choices.

Priorities for me:
-Reliable
-Quality firearm & parts
-Accurate
-Price"

OK in order,

Reliability:

You will need to <span style="font-weight: bold">change out your recoil spring every 10,000-15,000 rounds</span> ($20.00)and at least check your trigger main and firing pin springs. <span style="font-weight: bold">These are the only expected wear items</span> and unless you are double charging your loads or buying cheap ammo (white box, green stripe) Your new pistol can and will last for 500,000 rounds with regular cleaning and minimal lubrication (A broken in SS model only needs 3 drops of oil if that, CS needs a protective coating)

<span style="font-weight: bold">Quality firearm and parts

SIG
Springfield
Taurus
Para

This is in order of expected pricing, not quality, they are pretty much equal in basic quality.</span>

Accuracy:

Before you buy it, cycle the slide, is it gritty or smooth. Try to get the slide to move side to side, try to do the same with the barrel.

(it has nothing to do with accuracy, but do take a look at the feedramp a smooth shiny feedramp prevents Failure To Feeds) (If yo haqve a dremel, <span style="font-weight: bold">you caqn Fluff -N- Buff your hood throat and feedramp yourself)</span>

Pricing:
you can get a basic (GI) in Springfield, Para or Taurus in the $500 to $600 range. I would figure to add a SA extended magwell ($75 + fitting) and a S&A high rise grip safety ($30.00 + fitting) before too long especially if you are like me and have "man" hands. Believe me you will want that hi-rise beavertail the first time you get "hammer bite" which being a noob will probably happen in the first 2 boxes you run it through.

I admit some models have both features, but I do not like springfields minimal thumb safeties, the huge lump on their grip safeties or their cluttering of a good design with ambidexterous safeties. (If I am shooting lefty, my right hand is buggered and I am in a situation where I DO NOT need a thumb safety) As far as target sights go,<span style="font-weight: bold"> all you need is the front sight</span>, target sights snag, slow you down and absorb your money.


"Intended uses:
-Self defence
-plinking
-possible concealed carry, but not main intended use
-possible competition down the road but not a high priority"

Uses:
Any 1911 will take care of plinking and self defence, concealment is a bit rougher as it is 1) heavy and 2) a full size handgun.

With the two changes listed above you can compete in IPSC or other action comps, probably not place first, but also not unheard of and if you really really get into it you can always go out and buy a $3000 pistol. (FYI one of my buddies uses an off the shelf para, his kid placed 3rd the first time he went out, would have been 1st for speed and accuracy, but he kept fouling)

If you think you might want to get into "Wild Bunch" you are forced to use the GI model.

Forget about undersize frames, might as well get a chick gun as a shortened 1911. John Browning was a friggin genius and he went with 5" for a reason.

Another +2 freebie for you GET CHIP MCCORMIC SHOOTING STAR MAGAZINES. Get them in SS, get them with the optional base pads. I kid you not, do not even think about any other mag. Get them!</div></div>

You're advice directly contradicts that offered by numerous respected experts on the platform.

What is your experience with 1911's, and all of the brands of 1911's which you specifically mentioned above?

 

[Downzero]

Re: 1st 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
BS. Accuracy is related to the barrel locking up consistently with the sights on the pistol, and the user being able to get the trigger to break without moving those sights once they're on the target. Ergo's has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.</div></div>

I'm not saying you're wrong, we're just talking past each other. I was not suggesting that ergonomics had some bearing on mechanical accuracy. In fact, I think even discussing mechanical accuracy beyond that which is necessary for a fighting pistol is a complete waste of time, although I recognize that there are others who disagree with me on that.

You did say something that gets to what I'm talking about, actually, and contradicted your later statement. You said, "and the user being able to get the trigger to break without moving those sights once they're on the target."

There is a direct causal relationship between ergonomics and a user's ability to make the trigger break without moving the sights. If the grip is not of a shape where a human being can comfortably keep the gun in a steady position, or one that cannot be gripped consistently, or is slippery, or if the sights are too small for a person to acquire a consistent sight picture, or if the trigger is so heavy, gritty, or long that it takes a particularly high amount of concentration to keep the sights from moving while pressing the trigger, only the most professional of users will ever shoot that gun accurately.</div></div>

If you can't suck up a different feel than you "prefer" your fundamentals suck. It's not that difficult to hold a pistol steady and press the trigger without moving the sights, regardless of how it "feels". This BS about someone not being able to shoot a Glock because it's more angled is just stupid. Two of the most accurate pistols ever built have aggressive grip angles too (Sig P210, HK P7).

If you can only shoot a 1911 well, your fundamentals are flawed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've spent enough time trying to train new shooters to realize that these factors are the most important for practical accuracy. In fact, the one thing that makes new shooters stay interested and keep progressing is seeing results. Most new shooters don't see results with pistols that have a grip too fat for their hand, too much recoil for them to not flinch, or too heavy a trigger for them to deliver the shots into the black from the first shot.

It is a direct contradiction to suggest that ergonomics don't have anything to do with accuracy, but not moving the sights when the user is on target is somehow not related to that fact. Doing so negates the most important benefit of a single action design--a trigger pull that makes it easier for the user to keep the sights on target when pressing the trigger to the rear. I hope once you re-read your own statement, you'll agree that you've contradicted yourself.</div></div>

I haven't contradicted myself. If you want to suggest that "some shooters, who don't have good fundamentals, will shoot a 1911 better than a Glock" I can't disagree.

I've been present when LAV shot a better score on the famed "Humber" with a red dot equipped Glock than a highly tuned 1911. I also shot the same drill (side by side) better with a G19 than a Les Baer Super Tac. How is that possible if ergo's are so important?

LAV has small hands, I have huge hands. I press the trigger with the joint of my finger, LAV presses with the pad, etc.

If you can't adapt your grip/technique a little bit to make another pistol work, you're not that good.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any suggestion that "everyone" believes anything about maintaining pistols should be rejected outright, and even if "everyone" did believe something, they could still be wrong.

I've really tried to like every other type of pistol. I avoided the 1911 for my first few years shooting. I thought it was antiqued, expensive, unreliable, and outdated. I later discovered that I was completely and utterly wrong. There have been no substantial improvements in pistol designs since. <span style="font-weight: bold"> The focus has been on the wrong things, like capacity at the expense of an ergonomic grip,</span> or perceived safety at the expense of a smooth, light, and short trigger pull.</div></div>

So, you're suggesting that how a pistol feels in the end users hand is more critical than it's capacity? Wow...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're welcome to disagree with my opinions, but it is disingenuous to suggest that somehow yours are better than mine because they're repeatedly regurgitated on the internet. If the 1911 wasn't a reliable design, I would be carrying and shooting something else.

The problem is that there are so many kinds of 1911s, and many of them are so far out of spec (due to tolerance stacking and a general disregard for the specs in the first place) that the 1911 has earned an undeserving reputation for being unreliable. A good, well made 1911 will be reliable, accurate, and easy for even the newest shooter to put shots on target accurately. A crappy, out of spec, poorly fitted 1911 will be a nightmare.

Furthermore, most people maintaining guns as armorers are dealing with very high round count guns. Most users will never put that kind of wear on any pistol. I probably shoot 20,000 centerfire rounds a year or so. I know I'm the exception (although I know people who shoot many many more than I do). Most users, even pretty hardcore users, shoot 5,000 rounds a year max. As long as you replace springs every few years and other parts as they break, nearly any gun will hold up to that for a long time.</div></div> </div></div>

If you want to respond to what I actually said instead of arguing with a straw man, be my guest.

If you want to continue to argue that 'ergonomics == feel in users' hands' feel free to see your way out of this post.

I will also add that learning the difference between the possessive its and contraction it's, as well as the possessive your and the contraction you're could go a long way. But you've obviously never been one for detail, or you would have a substantive response instead of the crap you spewed.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: 1st 1911

orginal poster and anyone else reading. There is a reason guys like hilton yamm, chuck rogers, larry vickers, etc guys who have INFINATE rounds through a 1911 don't push its use for a carry pistol to the average person. don't take my word for it, you don't know my background or experience as you don't with any poster on here, go read those guys posts, blogs, etc on the platform for some well researched and experienced backed knowledge, the information in this thread is getting rediculous.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: 1st 1911

http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2011/01/choosing-your-first-1911-some-thoughts.html

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: 1st 1911

quote from larry vickers

7. How do I know if a 1911 is the right choice for me?

A:That is a tough question as I feel most people are best served NOT using a 1911 as a primary sidearm. Two criteria come to mind a) A passion for the 1911 platform and b) you are willing to be your own armorer and can fix relatively minor problems or fit certain parts yourself. If you are the kind of guy that doesn’t mind tinkering with your Harley Davidson motorcycle to keep it running then you are a candidate. If however you treat your pistols like we all treat our lawnmowers then don’t get a 1911 – use a Glock.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Downzero]

Re: 1st 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: White Dynamite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">quote from larry vickers

7. How do I know if a 1911 is the right choice for me?

A:That is a tough question as I feel most people are best served NOT using a 1911 as a primary sidearm. Two criteria come to mind a) A passion for the 1911 platform and b) you are willing to be your own armorer and can fix relatively minor problems or fit certain parts yourself. If you are the kind of guy that doesn’t mind tinkering with your Harley Davidson motorcycle to keep it running then you are a candidate. If however you treat your pistols like we all treat our lawnmowers then don’t get a 1911 – use a Glock.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</div></div>

I think there's a fair degree of truth to that.

I still know how to replace points, adjust ignition timing, and gap spark plugs, however, and so none of that is really an issue.

Pretty much every hardcore user (someone who shoots 10,000+ rounds a year) is going to have to learn how to detail strip whatever platform he chooses.

 

[aggiesig]

Re: 1st 1911

as far as reliability is concerned, all mechanical devices eventually fail. I've broken every part in an STI, and before that a Stainless Springfield Loaded. That being said, I've also seen Glocks throw extractors into orbit during matches and fail any number of different ways.

I personally have a safe of 1911's by Colt, Springfield, Kimber, STI, etc. and I have a Glock in my glovebox, I carry the 1911's when I'm going somewhere I legally can carry, and have the glock in the car for personal defense, if my car gets broken into, I won't lose one of my "babies". And I always have decent trade bait on hand if I see something at a gun shop/pawn shop I want to own. Glocks have their purpose

I've lost matches to Grandmaster level 1911 shooters who were shooting Glocks in production class. I'm not going to argue whats best for everyone, I will say that a 1911 is better for ME than a Glock, 1911's are also better for ME than the Sigs that I originally owned and eventually traded in on my stash of 1911's.

Take home message for anyone trying to decide between these or any other type of pistol is:

Pick something you like, that fits you, and that you feel confident in. buy a Dillon 550 shoot, pick up brass, reload, rinse, and repeat.

 

[aggiesig]

Re: 1st 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cvedrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One addendum I do not mention K!^b@r deliberately, for one they are out of your price range and for two you don't p#$$ me off.

(Actually I would have to hate you with an all consuming passion and a stong desire to wizz on your plot in order to recommend one to you) That and the fact that the ones I have seen leave their factory with silly stupid and easily corrected mistakes that would have taken 2 minutes to fix if their QC department was awake

If you have money for one go to STI, or if you want SS check out Caspian or even Foster Industries. </div></div>

If going kimber get a used series 1, these guns are amazing, and exude the same quality that their rifles always have. The series 2 have many issues (including the series 80 trigger disconnect safety) that I don't have the time or energy to mention here.

That being said I have built 1911's on Caspian frames that had multiple problems that I had to correct, pin holes that weren't perpendicular to the frame, grip bushing threads that were all chewed to hell, and a number of other things. I thought I was getting "the best" when I put my order in with Caspian and waited... I don't hold them in the same regard anymore.

 

[jeffm]

Re: 1st 1911

Why does it always become a 1911 vrs glock pissing contest? There are 3 1911s and 4 glocks in my safe, they get along fine.

 

[Downzero]

Re: 1st 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why does it always become a 1911 vrs glock pissing contest? There are 3 1911s and 4 glocks in my safe, they get along fine. </div></div>

Because it's the internet. It's easier to tell someone that 1911s are unreliable than to actually construct a decent response.

 

[Buckeye Scott]

Re: 1st 1911

I have had good luck with my kimber series 2, but after reading the post here I would lean toward a SA. I don't compete but I recently saw a post that bull barrels on 1911s are not allowed and SA has a few models with them. Whatever you get make sure you break it in and keep it clean though.

 

[super-tac]

Re: 1st 1911

In my experience, low end 1911s are nice paperweights. Higher end 1911s are some of the the finest pistol on earth.

I had a Les Baer Supertac that i pulled out of the box and shot a 2000 round 2day class with one field cleaning. I had one hiccup, a fte due a mag loaded with sand.

I Also had a Charles Daly "custom" that was the biggest turd on earth. I simply could not trust this thing. I also sold a Springfield GI version that was a turd, is left a bad taste in my mouth toward Springfield 1911s.

I was thinking of purchasing a Kimber, every time I wanted to rent one of the ranges 4 Kimbers, they were being worked on by Kimber. I didn't want to bother. It seams a lot of people have great experiences with them.



Ive also put about 4000 rounds down range with my G23. I have never had a malfunction, I have never cleaned it either. I have a G19, 17, 22, 23. I have personally never had a failure of any kind. I have a lot of trust in these.




I would never dream of carrying a firearm that I did not trust 100%. Before you ever carry one, take it out and shoot the shit out of it.

Handguns I PERSONALLY trust to protect my family:

Les Baer
Valtro custom 1911s (Jardine is the man)
Wilson 1911s
Glock G19,17,23,22,26
S&W revolvers
Springfield XD series
Sig 229, 226, 239, 220
HK USP

 

[super-tac]

Re: 1st 1911

That turned out long than I hoped.

Basically, if you like the 1911 platform, buy the best one you can afford. Shoot it a lot to make sure it functions 100%, keep it clean, keep it lubes.

Most of all: Don't skimp on mags! These can make or break a 1911.

Wilson 47d all day long.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: 1st 1911

Thanks for all the input so far. I never thought this simple question would grow a thread this long. Lots of good info and food for thought. Thanks. Please keep it coming.

I went into town a few days ago to look what was available. A few Springers, mostly GI models. There was one Loaded SS that was already spoken for. After studying the features on SA website, I think the one I'm the most interested in is the Loaded Parkerized, but no-one had any in stock for me to handle, let alone compare prices on. I found a Colt Commander for $800 but it didn't have the sights I was interested in, and it had a pretty bad scratch to the finish by the slide lock. The finish on the Kimbers I looked at seemed nicer than the GI model SAs, but that's not comparing apples to apples. Prices was quite a bit more than I was wanting to spend. I really like the triggers on the nicer 1911s I handled. I definitely want one now.

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: 1st 1911

check out the expert GI from para ord.

it's a very nice, very accurate firearm @ any price

 

[azdead]

Re: 1st 1911

I friggin LOVE my cheap ass Springfield Ultra Compact. It is a tank.

 

[fairbanksr6]

Re: 1st 1911

I think Super Tac has the best info. Ive shot my fair share of Kimber's Taurus PT1911s Colts Springfields and a Smith. Ed Brown makes em pretty good too. Les's Customs are about the best you can get. The main point is unless you get a handbuilt handcannon you may get a turd anyhow but its like everything else. You usually get what you pay for. Then again the thing hasnt changed much in a hundred years. Buy a springfield take it out shoot it until something breaks and upgrade that with a good part. As for the whole Glock versus 1911 argument. I dont think this thread applies. The question wasn't looking for my first glock or 1911. I wish you luck in your search and not all of this thread wasnt crap.

 

[Sgt. 0811]

Re: 1st 1911

+1 Springfield.

I've got a Springfield and love it, great quality, great customer service, very accurate and reliable.

I own a Kimber as well, the Kimber is a great gun but it has had issues and the customer service blows.

 

[MEAT4272]

Re: 1st 1911

I just sold a very nice Springfield Armory Loaded 1911, the pistol was upgraded with all of the TRP options. I had all of this work done before really getting to shoot the pistol, doing it this way I spent alot of money on items I didn't need. You should know now that a M-1911 is a pistol you WILL modify, so the best advice I could give you is get a Springfield Armory GI.45 and just shoot 1000 to 1500 rounds before doing anything. By doing this, you will have spent enough time with the pistol to figure exactly what you need in a M-1911. When you do make the choice to modiy your pistol, the first thing I would do is change out every MIM part with a EGW, Brown or Wilson part. Good luck with your choice, the M-1911 is a MUST have weapon.

 

[bama110]

Re: 1st 1911

Kimber Custom II

 

[Asiparks]

Re: 1st 1911


I have 16 1911's at the mo, a mix of production, high end production and custom and I've sold or traded another dozen. With the exception of a Kimber ultra ten II, they've all run beautifully. Now, of those, there's my EDC and maybe 2 others that I'll each put 6-8 thousand rounds a year through. Some I've got only 1000 rounds through so far, so it's hard to speak to hard use durability across the line and those I've shot a lot through could break a part in the next mag or the hundredth mag from now. Whilst one wouldn't want to argue with Vickers and those over on 10-8, their criterea and standards for their 1911's are above and beyond how most will run them. 98% (yeah, that's a random number),of people not using their 1911 hard will be well served by STI, Springfield, even Kimber.

Now, Kimber pull the same MIM parts from the same bins and assemble them with the same level of fitting whether it's a $700 Custom or a $2000 Gold combat. So good value at the lower end, then, but a bit shit really once you pay over $1000 or so.

If you're prepared to go $1300 or so you could look at Dan Wesson. MIM free, tool steel ignition parts, other bits by EGW, Wolff, Greider, Heinie sights etc, so top notch bits, all fit together very well with decent customer service if anything goes tits up.

Above that, Baer, Brown or if you have time, something built by the Springfield custom shop.....

pics, because it happened....

there's a springer Pro, RRA, a Valtro, Baer, couple of Browns, Springfield custom Shop/ Heinie , some other customs etc in there somewhere.....
The Wilson lwt bobtail is my current EDC. Prior to that for 3 years and 17K rounds it was a DW CBOB...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't recommend them to anyone who doesn't feel up to tinkering with them, and spending some serious time and money working on them.</div></div>
that's exactly the type of nonsense that perpetuates the myth of 1911's being not as reliable as Glocks.
As far as likening them to Harleys, most people tinker with 1911's because they just can't leave well enough alone. If your 1911 doesn't run right out of the box, don't mess around with 500 round break ins, re tensioning extractors or other bollocks. It's broken, return it. Lie if you have to. They are no more difficult to look after or shoot than any other gun, if anything the moa is one of the simplest.
Other than spring changes, 2 new extractors, oily wipe downs and the occasional detail strip I've not had to mess with any of my 1911's and many of them cost thousands less than $3k....of course, YMM very well V

 

[Wolf22]

Re: 1st 1911

Looks like Asiparks wins! choices must be tough each morning.......

Not to hijack - but did your DW CBOB have an external extractor? curious, don't see any with the ext. extractr any longer....

Also - which model has the 45 ACP stamped on it, I believe it to be Baer.

Love the RRA too. woulda coulda shoulda before they spooled the AR's.


For the OP - Springers (TRP ), Colt, SW PShop, Ed Brown, Dan Wesson, Fusion??, SIG GSR?, RRA, YOBO 1*. for sub $2k.

If you go with a Commander or 5", carbon steel, in a loaded springer or Colt.....you can easily send it off to a Smith for work and customizing when you figure out what you like and don't like. ALthough, when you are done you have spent close to the same $$ as a new semi'custom or Custom, odds are.........

Finally, IF you have the great fortune of meeting a 1911 afficionado, see if you can shoot the collection, and bring plenty of ammo!

 

[Asiparks]

Re: 1st 1911

cheers !
the CBOB is a 2nd gen 06, with the internal extractor. I think that they switched over sometime in '05. Not sure though. You're right the one stamped "45 acp" is a Baer.

Guess my, (long arsed winded), point was, that there's so much mystic voodoo bollocks talked about the 1911, it can be off putting to someone looking to get into them. They are a very friendly, simple gun to shoot and look after and you do not need to spend anything past $400 on an RIA, ATI or Citadel to enjoy them. And if you want to step up there's lots of excellent choices under $1000 if you don't plan on running it as hard as Vickers or Yam...

And if anyone is in the PDX area, they're more than welcome to try any of my 1911's and see how minimal the practical differences are between the

 

[cvedrick]

Re: 1st 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cvedrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Considering getting my first 1911. Seems like such a lot of choices.

Priorities for me:
-Reliable
-Quality firearm & parts
-Accurate
-Price"

OK in order,

Reliability:

You will need to <span style="font-weight: bold">change out your recoil spring every 10,000-15,000 rounds</span> ($20.00)and at least check your trigger main and firing pin springs. <span style="font-weight: bold">These are the only expected wear items</span> and unless you are double charging your loads or buying cheap ammo (white box, green stripe) Your new pistol can and will last for 500,000 rounds with regular cleaning and minimal lubrication (A broken in SS model only needs 3 drops of oil if that, CS needs a protective coating)

<span style="font-weight: bold">Quality firearm and parts

SIG
Springfield
Taurus
Para

This is in order of expected pricing, not quality, they are pretty much equal in basic quality.</span>

Accuracy:

Before you buy it, cycle the slide, is it gritty or smooth. Try to get the slide to move side to side, try to do the same with the barrel.

(it has nothing to do with accuracy, but do take a look at the feedramp a smooth shiny feedramp prevents Failure To Feeds) (If yo haqve a dremel, <span style="font-weight: bold">you caqn Fluff -N- Buff your hood throat and feedramp yourself)</span>

Pricing:
you can get a basic (GI) in Springfield, Para or Taurus in the $500 to $600 range. I would figure to add a SA extended magwell ($75 + fitting) and a S&A high rise grip safety ($30.00 + fitting) before too long especially if you are like me and have "man" hands. Believe me you will want that hi-rise beavertail the first time you get "hammer bite" which being a noob will probably happen in the first 2 boxes you run it through.

I admit some models have both features, but I do not like springfields minimal thumb safeties, the huge lump on their grip safeties or their cluttering of a good design with ambidexterous safeties. (If I am shooting lefty, my right hand is buggered and I am in a situation where I DO NOT need a thumb safety) As far as target sights go,<span style="font-weight: bold"> all you need is the front sight</span>, target sights snag, slow you down and absorb your money.


"Intended uses:
-Self defence
-plinking
-possible concealed carry, but not main intended use
-possible competition down the road but not a high priority"

Uses:
Any 1911 will take care of plinking and self defence, concealment is a bit rougher as it is 1) heavy and 2) a full size handgun.

With the two changes listed above you can compete in IPSC or other action comps, probably not place first, but also not unheard of and if you really really get into it you can always go out and buy a $3000 pistol. (FYI one of my buddies uses an off the shelf para, his kid placed 3rd the first time he went out, would have been 1st for speed and accuracy, but he kept fouling)

If you think you might want to get into "Wild Bunch" you are forced to use the GI model.

Forget about undersize frames, might as well get a chick gun as a shortened 1911. John Browning was a friggin genius and he went with 5" for a reason.

Another +2 freebie for you GET CHIP MCCORMIC SHOOTING STAR MAGAZINES. Get them in SS, get them with the optional base pads. I kid you not, do not even think about any other mag. Get them!</div></div>

You're advice directly contradicts that offered by numerous respected experts on the platform.

What is your experience with 1911's, and all of the brands of 1911's which you specifically mentioned above? </div></div>

Please be more specific, what did I say that contradicts the rest of the shooting community and what makes yo think the makes and models I listed are not good choices for a beginner with limited funds?

 

[MEAT4272]

Re: 1st 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for all the input so far. I never thought this simple question would grow a thread this long. Lots of good info and food for thought. Thanks. Please keep it coming.

I went into town a few days ago to look what was available. A few Springers, mostly GI models. There was one Loaded SS that was already spoken for. After studying the features on SA website, I think the one I'm the most interested in is the Loaded Parkerized, but no-one had any in stock for me to handle, let alone compare prices on. I found a Colt Commander for $800 but it didn't have the sights I was interested in, and it had a pretty bad scratch to the finish by the slide lock. The finish on the Kimbers I looked at seemed nicer than the GI model SAs, but that's not comparing apples to apples. Prices was quite a bit more than I was wanting to spend. I really like the triggers on the nicer 1911s I handled. I definitely want one now. </div></div>

Remember, the Springfield Armory GI-45 is a good starting point for a good price. Keep us up to date on what M-1911 you get and good luck!

 

[johngfoster]

Re: 1st 1911

Decided on the SA Loaded parkerized. Picked one up today. Not quite as pretty as a Kimber, but it has all the features I'm looking for. May add a mag well down the road, and maybe some skaters tape to the front strap. Otherwise it looks great. Tight slide fit--no slop at all. Can't seem to make the barrel move any in the bushing either. Shot 10 rounds through it this evening before sundown outside my backyard just to check function. Loaded 5 rounds in each mag it came with. Didn't have a paper target to shoot at, just a rock on a gravel pile. Seemed to be acceptably accurate, and no failures of any kind in the 10 rounds I shot. Looking forward to checking accuracy on paper with this pistol. Very happy with it so far.

 

[Sgt. 0811]

Re: 1st 1911

PICS DAMNIT... PICS