I just purchased a Remington 700 aac-sd in .308 i ordered a nikon monarch 3 4-16x42 scope and b4 i even opened the box i sent it back and decided im going to get a better scope because ive always wanted one. now im having such a hard time deciding between a few things. ive read multiple threads and still can not make up my mind. figured this would be a good first post. 1st i cant decide for the life of me if i want 1st or 2nd focal plane. im really leaning towards 1st focal plane because i mainly white tail hunt and the deer are always at diff distances and sometimes on the move. the only thing holding me back is im worried at lower magnification i wont be able to see the reticle very well, most the mature bucks dont come out till later in the day or first thing in the morning. the pst has illumination so that takes some of that worry away. i am wanting to do some long range shooting at targets with my buddies also. im looking at the vortex pst line very hard. either the 4-16 or the 6-24 (worried the 6 power would be to much to start out with but having the 24 power would make up for it i think) ive read alot about the 4-16 glass quality not being equal to the 6-24. another scope high on my list is the weaver tactical 4-20x50. seems like alot of scope for the money. i really want moa tho so thats whats holding me back on the weaver. I just recently learned about the swfa 5-20 and really like what i see but again i want moa and my pockets aren't that deep right now. might give that a shot around tax season when i can get the savage i want. i will mainly be adjusting the turrets for anything past 300 yards and not the using the reticle for hold overs. ranging with the reticle isn't that important to me but holdover shots would be. If i were to decide on 2nd focal plane that opens up another scope, the vortex hs long range or the hs-t. there's just to many darn choices out there! ill be honest. i make 10.75 an hour so spending this much on a scope is important to me to get it right the first time. takes me awhile to save up. i also have another question i want to ask on this post, dont want to make another thread. if you have two of the same scopes, one in 1st focal plane and the other in 2nd focal plane. at the lowest magnification is there a diff in reticle size? i have been thinking about all this hard for the last two months, anything you can give me for advice will be greatly appreciated. i hope i didn't overdue this thread and piss anyone off. also i usually order from midway or opticsplanet. anywhere else i should be looking at? thanks again for any responses!
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Rifle Scopes 1st high quality scope purchase (to me) , give me all you got! ...headache...
- Thread starter bloodsport06
- Start date
It sounds like you've thought long and hard on this topic. It's not an easy one, that's for sure. For a hunting scope, I like to have some low magnification available for general browsing; in the 3x to 4x range. I think a low end of 6x might be a problem in this respect.
You are correct with your concern of a thin crosshair in a FFP scope. That's detrimental for general hunting too. If you think you would have some extra time on a long hunting type of shot, a second focal plane scope might do the trick for you. You can ignore the reticle scaling unless you're making a long shot and want to use a hold over on the reticle - then you would have to crank the magnification to the correct setting to get the reticle scaling to be correct, and make your shot. You would just have to make dang sure you didn't miss that step.
As for long range target shooting, (I'll admit I'm still kinda new myself), a lot of times you're dealing with mirage. And with heavy mirage you have to drop your magnification down to 12x to 14x. So, it seem like you would probably be okay with the top end of magnification of 14x or 16x.
Good luck on your decision. Let us know what you decide and how it works out.
You are correct with your concern of a thin crosshair in a FFP scope. That's detrimental for general hunting too. If you think you would have some extra time on a long hunting type of shot, a second focal plane scope might do the trick for you. You can ignore the reticle scaling unless you're making a long shot and want to use a hold over on the reticle - then you would have to crank the magnification to the correct setting to get the reticle scaling to be correct, and make your shot. You would just have to make dang sure you didn't miss that step.
As for long range target shooting, (I'll admit I'm still kinda new myself), a lot of times you're dealing with mirage. And with heavy mirage you have to drop your magnification down to 12x to 14x. So, it seem like you would probably be okay with the top end of magnification of 14x or 16x.
Good luck on your decision. Let us know what you decide and how it works out.
I think the 2.5-10x44 PST would do a good job for ya. The scope is affordable for the features it boasts.
To answer your question, yes the reticle on the first focal plane scope will get bigger and smaller. The reticle scales with the magnification giving you constant subtension values (hash marks). The second focal plane scopes reticle will remain the same size but the subtension value will change depending on the magnification.
Example at max magnification a hash mark represents 1 MOA, the more you dial down the magnification the more that same hash mark will represent. At half of the magnification range the subtension value will double, so your 1 MOA mark now represents 2 MOA.
To answer your question, yes the reticle on the first focal plane scope will get bigger and smaller. The reticle scales with the magnification giving you constant subtension values (hash marks). The second focal plane scopes reticle will remain the same size but the subtension value will change depending on the magnification.
Example at max magnification a hash mark represents 1 MOA, the more you dial down the magnification the more that same hash mark will represent. At half of the magnification range the subtension value will double, so your 1 MOA mark now represents 2 MOA.
ShtrRdy you just made me realize something. if i happen to be shooting at a deer at say 400-500 yards(probably my max) that deer is going to be standing still for me to even think about taking a shot. so i would have time to dial the magnification to the highest value. i never really considered this till now. im not gonna be shooting at a deer running that far away. i was thinking i need ffp because of all the diff yardages they would be but in reality anything under 100 yards to 300 yards id just use the scopes zero and anything further i would be taking my time. i may just save the extra money and buy the sfp and then with the extra buy a bell and carlson stock for my remington 700. well i think i actually have it narrowed down to the sfp pst line or the weaver 4-20x50 (which is ffp and mil dot) if i can learn it. both are right in the same price range.
JFComfort i have a nikon monarch 3 2-8x32 right now and thats pretty close to the 2.5-10 pst (magnification wise) and i feel i want more then that. idk why but i want the most power i can get but still have usable low magnification and good clear glass. thanks for the replys so far guys. really appreciate it
JFComfort i have a nikon monarch 3 2-8x32 right now and thats pretty close to the 2.5-10 pst (magnification wise) and i feel i want more then that. idk why but i want the most power i can get but still have usable low magnification and good clear glass. thanks for the replys so far guys. really appreciate it
The Viper HS-T 4-16x44 is an excellent value; I recently purchased two of them and they'll be used for range work, hunting a wooded creek bottom, and maybe some competition.
The HS-T is second focal but for any ranging you'll likely be at 16x anyway, and you can always do your holdovers @ 8x and simply double (ie. holding over 1 mil @ 8x is really 2 mils @ 16x where the reticle is subtended).
I hunted with the Viper HS 5-15x44 (MidwayUSA exclusive that the HS-T essentially replaced) and did not feel illumination was necessary, but YMMV.
The HS-T is second focal but for any ranging you'll likely be at 16x anyway, and you can always do your holdovers @ 8x and simply double (ie. holding over 1 mil @ 8x is really 2 mils @ 16x where the reticle is subtended).
I hunted with the Viper HS 5-15x44 (MidwayUSA exclusive that the HS-T essentially replaced) and did not feel illumination was necessary, but YMMV.
With the total amount of rounds that come out of my LMT MWS with a vortex4-16x50 PST viper in a FFP, I use it for 95% target & 5% deer hunting 3days a year freezing my ass off in a tree stand with a max radius around my tree stand of about 150yards in the woods I hunt in..... Because of this during deer hunting & having a max deer kill range of 150yards with a typical shot around 75ish yards, then my scope is all the way down on the lowest 4x setting..... let me tell you this right now, DO NOT get a FFP scope for ANY TYPE of hunting unless it is illuminated. My scope would and is totally worthless on the lowest power setting during the early / late part of the day with low light visibility unless the illumination is on... The illumination on my scope is on during these times and its the only way around it, especially if the deer is somewhat on the move. As for running deer running past my stand I have RTS offset iron sights. If I was you, i'd get the Viper HS-T 4-16x44.
As for target shooting, my scope is amazing.
As for target shooting, my scope is amazing.
I have a Vortex Viper PST FFP Illuminated MRAD 2.5-10 that bought for use on my main hunting rifle. I want with the illumination precisely because if I need the scope at the low mag setting I could turn on the illumination to help with the thin reticle. In thick brush it is a little difficult to pick up the crosshairs especially in low light conditions, however, the illumination soles that problem. Additionally, the reticle is well designe and when dialed up to 3.3 I find that I can pick up the reticle no problems without the illumination. If the rifle is for hunting use only I would probably go with a good SFP scope.
I know I'm new here, but i just bought the same rifle and picked up the PF RR-900-4. 2.5-10x 40mm. i've been doing a lot of research as well, and this one is what did it for me. Made in Japan with amazing glass. the reticle allows for bullet drop and windage up to 10MPH. i couldn't be happier.
PRIDE FOWLER PFI Rapid-Reticle 2.5-10x40 (Meters) Rifle Scope, Value Package (RR-900-4-PK)
comes with EGW rings in this package. and for some reason, its $400+ cheaper than the optic alone with this bundle pack.
PRIDE FOWLER PFI Rapid-Reticle 2.5-10x40 (Meters) Rifle Scope, Value Package (RR-900-4-PK)
comes with EGW rings in this package. and for some reason, its $400+ cheaper than the optic alone with this bundle pack.
If you want an MOA based reticle your only options under $1000 are from Vortex, Sightron, or the Redfield Battlezone (3-9x, $200, probably below the level you're looking for). Vortex and Sightron are both good brands, with good scopes and great warranties. The Viper PST line is good, but glass quality varies, and is pretty poor on the 2.5-10x44 SFP that was mentioned earlier. (The newer FFP model is totally different and has excellent glass.) I'd be looking seriously at the Viper HS-T 4-16x44 based on your requirements and budget. The Sightron SIII 3.5-10x44 with the MOA hash reticle would be another one to consider, for a bit more ($650-700).
The good thing is you are taking your time and weighing your options.
Here are some points from a guy who did not "buy once"
Price point vs value.
If anything, glass and coatings should be your priority. Anything greater than x10 you really need to step up in pricepoint. All the little features (FFP, illumination, reticle) means squat if you cant see your target. If you can wait, buy the scope you "really" want.
Magnification
Do you really need a x20 scope to shoot a deer? I can see shooting prairie rats at 800Y, but deer and other large game are pretty big. Again, this is just my subjective opinion based on my objective experience. You have to pay for magnification; look through a NF, Steiner or MK8 at x16 and you will be amazed. I can not say that for Vortex. I found myself dialing down all the time. The only exception was the Weaver Tactical at x15, that image was damn clear and contrasty. Just the scope is a frickin tank for a walking rifle.
FFP vs SFP
Yes FFP is superior, but do you really need that feature on a hunting rig? FFP is very important if (1) you have a caliber and chambering that allows you to see the bullet impact the ground/ target to use the reticle as a ruler (2) you are shooting with a spotter (3) if you use the reticle for drop
Most hunters set the drop for MPBR and dial from there. If you can dial an elevation turret, you can damn well dial a mag ring.
The SFP reticle is only true at one magnification, but if you are keen you can use the reticle and mag ring to range your target. Deer are approx 18" shoulder to brisket. If your reticle has appropriate markings, you can mag an 18" target at various ranges and mark your mag ring. Leupold has this feature on its VX3 scopes.
Again, if you can afford FFP, then get it.
Illumination
The point has been made about hunting deer in the brush, and I have to agree. I switched to VXr's for my brush guns because of the small illuminated dot. In dense woods, target acquisition is quick and easy. A small dot is non-obtrusive, as full illuminated reticle can be a pain. The Leupold scopes also turn themselves off, so you dont have to worry about dead batteries. My NF has illumination, but I seriously doubt I will ever use that feature on a plains rifle.
Profile, weight, turrets
The Remington will take any scope you throw at it. My Tikka, however did not like a scope with external windage knobs (also there is another hider having similar probs with a Stiller action). The ejection port slams the cases against the windage knob and does not eject the case. Also the more mag, the more weight. If you want heavy thats cool, just sling it appropriately because climbing rocks with the rifle falling off your shoulders gets old very quickly.
I like an exposed elevation turret, thats just me. MOA, MIL doesn't matter because I know and use both. Also doesn't matter because the day before my hunting trip I tape my turret and mark my dope with a sharpie. Again, anything under 300 is set at MPBR, the tape is as good as my dope card. Move locations, change the tape. Slight changes in temp and elevation are important if your shots will be over 700Y.
In summary, if you can save $600 you can save $1200, get the scope your really want the first time.
If that doesn't work, buy a scope from the hide. There are loads of scopes from guys who didnt "buy once" myself included..lol.
Here are some points from a guy who did not "buy once"
Price point vs value.
If anything, glass and coatings should be your priority. Anything greater than x10 you really need to step up in pricepoint. All the little features (FFP, illumination, reticle) means squat if you cant see your target. If you can wait, buy the scope you "really" want.
Magnification
Do you really need a x20 scope to shoot a deer? I can see shooting prairie rats at 800Y, but deer and other large game are pretty big. Again, this is just my subjective opinion based on my objective experience. You have to pay for magnification; look through a NF, Steiner or MK8 at x16 and you will be amazed. I can not say that for Vortex. I found myself dialing down all the time. The only exception was the Weaver Tactical at x15, that image was damn clear and contrasty. Just the scope is a frickin tank for a walking rifle.
FFP vs SFP
Yes FFP is superior, but do you really need that feature on a hunting rig? FFP is very important if (1) you have a caliber and chambering that allows you to see the bullet impact the ground/ target to use the reticle as a ruler (2) you are shooting with a spotter (3) if you use the reticle for drop
Most hunters set the drop for MPBR and dial from there. If you can dial an elevation turret, you can damn well dial a mag ring.
The SFP reticle is only true at one magnification, but if you are keen you can use the reticle and mag ring to range your target. Deer are approx 18" shoulder to brisket. If your reticle has appropriate markings, you can mag an 18" target at various ranges and mark your mag ring. Leupold has this feature on its VX3 scopes.
Again, if you can afford FFP, then get it.
Illumination
The point has been made about hunting deer in the brush, and I have to agree. I switched to VXr's for my brush guns because of the small illuminated dot. In dense woods, target acquisition is quick and easy. A small dot is non-obtrusive, as full illuminated reticle can be a pain. The Leupold scopes also turn themselves off, so you dont have to worry about dead batteries. My NF has illumination, but I seriously doubt I will ever use that feature on a plains rifle.
Profile, weight, turrets
The Remington will take any scope you throw at it. My Tikka, however did not like a scope with external windage knobs (also there is another hider having similar probs with a Stiller action). The ejection port slams the cases against the windage knob and does not eject the case. Also the more mag, the more weight. If you want heavy thats cool, just sling it appropriately because climbing rocks with the rifle falling off your shoulders gets old very quickly.
I like an exposed elevation turret, thats just me. MOA, MIL doesn't matter because I know and use both. Also doesn't matter because the day before my hunting trip I tape my turret and mark my dope with a sharpie. Again, anything under 300 is set at MPBR, the tape is as good as my dope card. Move locations, change the tape. Slight changes in temp and elevation are important if your shots will be over 700Y.
In summary, if you can save $600 you can save $1200, get the scope your really want the first time.
If that doesn't work, buy a scope from the hide. There are loads of scopes from guys who didnt "buy once" myself included..lol.
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My flavor would be to Vortex PST Line
the 2.5x10 or the 4x16 will serve you well. FFP is great IF you need it. the question you REALLY need to as yourself is DO you need it?
the 2.5x10 or the 4x16 will serve you well. FFP is great IF you need it. the question you REALLY need to as yourself is DO you need it?
ended up trading my bcm upper and 75 bucks for a vortex pst 6-24x50 moa ffp rifle scope today at the gun show!! excited!!
