1st round flyer, what is going on?
- Thread starter Coyote Kev
- Start date
Yeah, stupid to try new tech. Flip phones are the fucking bomb too.
As others have stated, barrel stress. POI shifts suck. A friend of mine has a zev build with a 22” proof 6.5 creed barrel. He has the same issues you do. 1st round 1 moa lower Than the rest of the group. It’s repeatable so he just deals with it.
I won’t deal with it. I have much more testing to do and I’ll update when I know more. I’m getting sick of load development and I should be hunting when the wind isn’t blowing so it may be a while.
I wouldn't deal with it either. That would irritate me, to the point of spending the money for a new barrel.
I experience a very similar issue but with a bolt gun. When the gun was cold it would shoot 1.5" low,. I tried everything but came to the conclusion it was the barrel and gave up on the gun. Gave it to my dad to shoot prairie dogs with, as when the temperatures outside were warm it grouped well. Only when I left the gun outside overnight to get cold would the issue appear.
In your case with an AR you have other things that could factor in. The same barrel had issues in a different AR-10, correct? If so were you using the same bolt carrier group?
how are you installing the barrels? Do you use loctite on the barrel extension? Truing the receiver face? Also is there much slop between the upper and lower?
One thing I tested was cold vs warm ammo. Didn't seem to matter and only when my barrel was cold would the POI shift occur.
What about optics and mounts, are you using the same optic and mount on these different guns when you move the barrels? I hope you get it figured out, as it is odd you have gone through several barrels with the same issue.
In your case with an AR you have other things that could factor in. The same barrel had issues in a different AR-10, correct? If so were you using the same bolt carrier group?
how are you installing the barrels? Do you use loctite on the barrel extension? Truing the receiver face? Also is there much slop between the upper and lower?
One thing I tested was cold vs warm ammo. Didn't seem to matter and only when my barrel was cold would the POI shift occur.
What about optics and mounts, are you using the same optic and mount on these different guns when you move the barrels? I hope you get it figured out, as it is odd you have gone through several barrels with the same issue.
Shoot a group, get rifle warm.
Then put rifle UPSIDE DOWN and let cool.
See if 1st round hits in different location, it may help zero in on whats moving.
Then put rifle UPSIDE DOWN and let cool.
See if 1st round hits in different location, it may help zero in on whats moving.
Please explain a bit more. I know what you are getting at, but I'd like to hear more and why/if this has worked before.
Have only one JP in 6.5 cm that is an absolute laser. Def worth every penny and I would pay twice what I did for it.
Re: first round flyer. That is frustrating as hell and unacceptable to me as well. Is that the only rifle you have that does it? Have you loaded a full mag and shot several cold 5 round groups without reloading? Or do you load a new mag and charge the handle with each group?
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It may let you know if a bbl nut or barrel extension is moving in upper (gravity may move that) or actually a bind in the barrel ass'y (may move the same regardless of gravity).
And the bbl problem may move w/ gravity, too, but not as likely.
What parts have NOT been changed with all the bbl swaps, that's what I would focus on.
I would also shoot a group with the gun laying on it's side in the sandbags.
Have you tried a different scope/mount combo?
Is your lower to upper fit tight?
People say it doesn't matter, and it doesn't on a 1.5" gun, but it ABSOLUTELY does on a 1/2" gun.
It looks like a lower/upper fit problem or upper to bbl extension problem or scope/mount to me more than anything.
Also, always place your front sandbag at the farthest forward section of your forend, never back by the magwell.
Is your handguard really tight, can you push it around hard and touch the gas block or barrel anywhere?
If shooting off a bipod, pull it off and shoot off bags. Your bipod could be slightly jumping where it mounts.
Are you 100% certain the gas block or screws are not touching anything (not even close, needs .100" minimum, 1/8" is better)?
Also anything you have mounted (pic rail, etc) screws touching or even close to the barrel?
Is your handguard really tight, can you push it around hard and touch the gas block or barrel anywhere?
If shooting off a bipod, pull it off and shoot off bags. Your bipod could be slightly jumping where it mounts.
Are you 100% certain the gas block or screws are not touching anything (not even close, needs .100" minimum, 1/8" is better)?
Also anything you have mounted (pic rail, etc) screws touching or even close to the barrel?
More.stability. if the rest is in the center you would have a.long barrel/supressor to control. If the rest is as far forward a s possible, it would be more controllable.
But when shooting off a rest, make sure the placement is the same each time.
Ok. I figured it was a stability thing.
When I'm doing load development, I have my magnetospeed on a home-made adapter on my pic rail, so the bag ends up pretty close to my mag well. I use the Caldwell "tack driver", which is a pretty long bag that offers a lot of support. I know the OP uses the same one, so while I don't think that's part of it, it would be interesting to test using a loaded bipod instead.
However, I've noticed with my AR-10 that varying degrees of cheek pressure on the stock can make a big difference. Other than being mindful of it, and striving for consistency, are there any "tricks" for mitigating that? I have an adjustable stock that I've snugged up with some shims. Would a more solid stock like the Magpul PRS help?
When I'm doing load development, I have my magnetospeed on a home-made adapter on my pic rail, so the bag ends up pretty close to my mag well. I use the Caldwell "tack driver", which is a pretty long bag that offers a lot of support. I know the OP uses the same one, so while I don't think that's part of it, it would be interesting to test using a loaded bipod instead.
However, I've noticed with my AR-10 that varying degrees of cheek pressure on the stock can make a big difference. Other than being mindful of it, and striving for consistency, are there any "tricks" for mitigating that? I have an adjustable stock that I've snugged up with some shims. Would a more solid stock like the Magpul PRS help?
This is part of it, but an AR also has pivot points and slop between the upper and lower (even tight ones, which mitigate some of this) but the further forward the bag is, the more it preloads the slop out of it (Off a bench anyway, it's a different dynamic if shot unconventional position)
You can take a loose gun and put the bag by the magwell and slightly push forward and back (like recoil) and watch the crosshairs move up and down on the target 3/4" or more as the upper and lower moves.
SuppressYourself....
This may also be part of what your seeing.
While on the bench, all setup and ready to shoot, hold your head (not touching the gun) so you can see the crosshairs on target; then put your hand where your cheek would sit and put varying amounts of pressure on the cheekrest while watching the crosshairs.
Move your rests and bags around in different positions until you mitigate the movement as much as possible, you usually want the front bag as far forward as possible. A big, wide bag, resting under the whole forend, is usually NOT as good as a single small bag out at the end.
Also, VERY important on an AR vs. boltgun, FOLLOW THROUGH after the shot....a boltgun bullet is 50-75 yards downrange before an AR's even leave the barrel. Slow locktime sucks, even off a bench.
I’ll try to answer a few questions that have came up about my methods. This has occurred with just about every combo of parts and yielded the same result. 3 different uppers, 3 different lowers. 2 different high pressure bolts. 2 different triggers (high end). I have never trued a receiver or used locktite on the barrel. The only thing that remained the same was the suppressor and shooter. But I have shot unsupressed. It doesn’t matter if I charge the round manually or if it’s the 5th out of 10 in the mag. If the barrel is cold it shoots high. Also 2 different scopes and rings. All high end shit. And torqued to manufactures specs.
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So before I started this thread I had some very limited evidence of a cure. It has now been confirmed. The first round flyer does NOT occur when I crimp the bullets.
I had been using spendy Redding bushing dies and micro adjust seater. I was running 0.288 bushing with my 260 Rem and 0.268 bushing with my 6 Creedmoor. This gave me 3-5 thousandths neck tension. The first round flyer occurred with several different bullets weights and manufacturers.
I recently bought some cheap RCBS dies and have been small base sizing and taper crimp seating. And now shots 1 and 2 are side by side. WTF? And before y’all start in about the bullet sliding forward with the neck tension rounds this has been controlled for by loading that round in every different way possible.
I had been using spendy Redding bushing dies and micro adjust seater. I was running 0.288 bushing with my 260 Rem and 0.268 bushing with my 6 Creedmoor. This gave me 3-5 thousandths neck tension. The first round flyer occurred with several different bullets weights and manufacturers.
I recently bought some cheap RCBS dies and have been small base sizing and taper crimp seating. And now shots 1 and 2 are side by side. WTF? And before y’all start in about the bullet sliding forward with the neck tension rounds this has been controlled for by loading that round in every different way possible.
This is an example of my crimped groups. Shots 1 and 2 are the ones in the same hole. While not a stellar group, it has been confirmed multiple times now. I was having other problems with this rifle today that are worthy of a whole new thread so I was shooting very pissed off and it was cold as shit out. Also, shot the old 260Rem with the JP barrel. It shot well for a burnt out barrel. I’m glad to know this first round flyer shit isn’t caused by something going on between my ears.
That video has been out for a while. Yet they still don’t offer a barrel for any bolt gun. Maybe their R&D isn’t going so well. When I originally bought the Dracos barrel, their website said bolt barrels would be available 1st quarter of 2018.
You can still use your old dies if preferred, get a lee factory crimp.
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/7...tSgPGVJ62PlnBh-zRl3mTtHl7jgJSNqcaAmgvEALw_wcB
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/7...tSgPGVJ62PlnBh-zRl3mTtHl7jgJSNqcaAmgvEALw_wcB
If crimping is the fix, it would seem to suggest the issue is with bullet movement during chambering. Either being pushed further into the case by contact with the feed ramp, or moving out a bit during the sudden stop at the end of the stroke. On the surface, it makes a bit of sense as the first round is usually 'different', being chambered manually instead of (semi) automatically.
However, that don't jive with it happening on the 5th round in the mag (1st shot of the 2nd group). It doesn't seem to quite line up with it happening with factory ammo either.
Regardless, I'm glad you found a fix. If the gun shoots, maybe it ain't worth thinking about...
However, that don't jive with it happening on the 5th round in the mag (1st shot of the 2nd group). It doesn't seem to quite line up with it happening with factory ammo either.
Regardless, I'm glad you found a fix. If the gun shoots, maybe it ain't worth thinking about...
The whole bullet slide thing just don’t fit. Since I have also pushed the rounds into the chamber and closed the bolt before.
Now this has only been confirmed with one bullet and powder combo, but it’s my favorite bullet and powder and it shoots well so I’m not gonna mess with it.
Does anyone have a theory why crimping the bullets gets rid of my first round flyer?
Now this has only been confirmed with one bullet and powder combo, but it’s my favorite bullet and powder and it shoots well so I’m not gonna mess with it.
Does anyone have a theory why crimping the bullets gets rid of my first round flyer?
Maybe your receiver or the proof barrel suck for some reason.
Not square etc.
Not to bash proof barrels or your receiver but one of them is probably trash. The fit between the two is probably not good.
Something is moving in the fit between. Imho
Pr has a good following but?
Can not see a crimp fixing that?
Not square etc.
Not to bash proof barrels or your receiver but one of them is probably trash. The fit between the two is probably not good.
Something is moving in the fit between. Imho
Pr has a good following but?
Can not see a crimp fixing that?
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I very, very lightly crimp all of my match loads with the Lee Factory Crimp die. The only thing I see is that it possibly levels out out neck tension?
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Take your first shot off the target, then immediately shift and set up your position and fire several more.
If the first shot after the new setup is still off, it ain't the rifle, it ain't me, my advice isn't "shit", and you owe me an apology.
I was instructing youth shooters and former Marines in precision shooting back before this site was even established, but you got the knowledge base that allows you to dismiss well intended, experienced advice as "Shit".
Blame everything but the shooter, that's an old tale here...
Greg
PS Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
If the first shot after the new setup is still off, it ain't the rifle, it ain't me, my advice isn't "shit", and you owe me an apology.
I was instructing youth shooters and former Marines in precision shooting back before this site was even established, but you got the knowledge base that allows you to dismiss well intended, experienced advice as "Shit".
Blame everything but the shooter, that's an old tale here...
Greg
PS Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
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From a purely logical standpoint I don't understand how ammo can be the issue. The ammo is basically all the same correct?-crimp more, less, or whatever it's still the same for all of it for the most part. Unless you're saying the cold bore/warm bore has an effect on the bullet in chamber once seated and ready to fire where the second shot has a warmer bore causing the bullet to expand ever so slightly due to heat energy vs. first bullet? It must be some threshold because subsequent rounds don't seem to exhibit it?
A warmer cartridge should shoot lower due to shorter bore transit time, which reduces the amount of muzzle flip.
For over a century cowboy revolver shooters have 'regulated' their fixed sights by altering the powder charge/bullet weight, more powder for lower, less for a higher POI. Heavier bullets would shoot higher for the same powder charge, but we're not varying bullet weights for the purposes of this discussion.
The bore transit time dictates where the muzzle points at bullet emergence. The warmer cartridge contains more energy with the additional energy of heat, speeding the transit time, resulting in a lower POA at bullet emergence. This would support the implication that the cold bore shot shoots higher, but the degree by which this occurs is usually very small.
Simple physics.
Greg
For over a century cowboy revolver shooters have 'regulated' their fixed sights by altering the powder charge/bullet weight, more powder for lower, less for a higher POI. Heavier bullets would shoot higher for the same powder charge, but we're not varying bullet weights for the purposes of this discussion.
The bore transit time dictates where the muzzle points at bullet emergence. The warmer cartridge contains more energy with the additional energy of heat, speeding the transit time, resulting in a lower POA at bullet emergence. This would support the implication that the cold bore shot shoots higher, but the degree by which this occurs is usually very small.
Simple physics.
Greg
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So basically crimping bullets somehow allows the cartridge to dissipate heat/manage heat energy better. Maybe more surface area in contact between brass and bullet or the like.
If my cheap RCBS seater die that also tamper crimps is making good rounds, is there any reason to use my expensive Redding micrometer seater just to run them all through the press again with the Lee crimp die?
Relax Greg I wasn’t calling your advice “shit” like it’s not useful information. “Shit” happens to be a synonym for “stuff” in my vocabulary. My Dracos friends have also suggested cold shooter syndrome. The problem is that it doesn’t fit. This flyer phenomenon appeared immediately with the new barrel and doesn’t occur with my other rifles including my JP AR10 in 260 Rem. I offered to send the whole rifle to Dracos to let them either prove I suck or their barrel does but they seemed only interested in sending me a new barrel.
Roger that, and much thanks for the clarification.
This is not anywhere like a new topic, and many have offered advice spanning a full range of often contradictory solutions.
When I'm faced with such a quandary, I defer to LowLight, who has danged near all of his shit totally together.
Greg
This is not anywhere like a new topic, and many have offered advice spanning a full range of often contradictory solutions.
When I'm faced with such a quandary, I defer to LowLight, who has danged near all of his shit totally together.
Greg
I have read the entire thread and understand you have solved it with crimping or more neck tension.
Just out of curiosity, did you ever state how you mount your scope? Are you using a particular mount or rings?
I have a nightforce nxs with nightforce ultralight rings on my JP upper. They are all torqued with a wheeler fat wrench to nightforce specs. On a separate upper I have a vortex PST gen 2 on Warne 1 piece mount. Also to spec. I take great care mounting my scopes using levels and tightening in a crisscross pattern a little at a time. The nightforce has also been on my aero upper. All 3 uppers have shown the same 1st round flyer. I have no explanation why crimping solves the problem. I am currently fixing another problem so it will be a little while before I can shoot more confirmation groups. I currently have 8-10 groups of crimped loads that have not shown this tendency.
I’ve shot this from 20 to 70+ degrees and it exhibits the same tendency. The only thing a colder temp does is shorten the amount of time it takes to cool and do it again. In 20 degrees it’s only a couple min. In 70 it’s more like 5 to 10 min.
If your serious about finding the cause/ruling out possible causes here's what I would do:
Load 20 rounds crimped and 20 not crimped plus buy a box of factory ammo that shoots well in rifle.
Wait for a cold day, use fresh sheet of 8x11 paper for each group, bring two identical mags, load each twin below and have someone give you one of the two mags (without you know which is which until your done shooting). Make sure they know what you are doing so they can write which is which in sequence. Shake all mags well before shooting (simulate recoil a bit).
- 4 crimped
- 4 no crimp
- 1st crimped +4 no crimp
- 1st no crimp + 4 crimped
- 5 no crimp
- 5 crimped
- 1 crimped round, fire, leave loaded, let cool, next 4 crimped (do not disturb rifle while cooling if possible; leave on bag, in shooting position)
- 1 no crimp, fire, leave loaded, let cool, next 4 no crimped. (do not disturb rifle while cooling if possible; leave on bag, in shooting position)
- 1 factory round + 4 crimped
- 1 factory round + 4 no crimp
- 5 factory rounds
- 5 factory rounds using Shoot, Rest, Shoot method.
If it happens only on type #2, #4 and #6, it could be crimp keeps bullets from dislodging upon chambering (think kinetic bullet puller). Your first round might be the "right" POI and subsequent rounds are unseating or squaring correctly in chamber).
If you see anything other than those groups with this issue, it's likely cold shooter/positional.
If it doesn't happen at all (including factory ammo) its either a fluke or shooter related related with your handloads.
If the groups with the fire/rest/fire 4 more have two rounds high (first two) it's almost certainly something to do with rifle barrel cooling and repositioning itself relative to scope.
Chrono all shots and for the groups that exhibit flyer, look for first round velocity trend.
The reason for 4 round group is to simply test magazine loading even vs odd. I had a barrel that would more often than not shoot a "flyer" from the right side of mag because it was catching feed ramp slightly.
Factory rounds are control to see if it's shooter induced.
Post results here and I'm sure we can collectively help interpret. I'm curious about this now.
I know that @Subwrx300 has done extensive research with his Dracos, I tend to try and follow it, for reasons you may deduce later. I would take his advice, and work with it. I am very familiar (read EXTREMELY) , with the StraightJacket barrel system, the system from which the Dracos was born. I own 6. I have fired Dracos with great success in a multitude of calibers (soon will be trying 7mm08!), but not hand loaded for. For the most part, speculation on assembly has been close to spot on. Heres the thing, like I said, I own 6 StraightJacket barrels, assembled on weapons, and none of them exhibit what you are experiencing. The idea behind the system is to give the shooter a "cold bore" shot every time. Essentially taking heat and whip out of the equation. I also know that StraightJacket barrels are hand fitted and assembled; whereas the Dracos is not, and could potentially lead to what you're experiencing as far as alignment issues. It's a damn shame it's happening, because the idea, and function of the system is genius. I'll be another hider willing to swap rifles for a day, and we can see if that makes a difference. My next build, when my current .308 ar10 is done, will be a "toilet rifle" assembled from leftover parts, and I fully intend to use a factory second Dracos for the project. As to why I do not use them now: the company that makes StraightJacket, is a few miles from my house here in Maine, they have stellar customer service, will paint any color I'd appreciate, the 1.25" tubing has a better look, and more stability than the 30mm used by Falkor, gas block design is far superior, and my bolt guns will shoot the proverbial "one hole " warm or cold. Maybe this was just a rant, but I'm sorry you're having problems. I know the guys out there at Falkor are great for CS, and will take care of you. Good luck
I assume you have Teludyne (sp?) straitjacket? What's the price difference between them and Dracos? And do they use a barrel you send them or do they make their own?
Yes, Teludyne. I go through Teludyne Custom Shop in Hope, ME. The cost difference is not too bad, if you dont consider the seconds that Falkor will sell. They use the barrel you send, and use it in their system.
I have an SJ 30-06 on a savage action and it does shoot very well...
Have you had any trouble with the cerakote at the barrel nut? Mine started bubbling after the first 100 rds. Didn't care much because I'm guaranteed to beat up the rifle a bit as I use it and don't care about cosmetics.
I have not had any problems with paint. Most of mine are within the last 3 years, but see regular use. I also have a 700 tac .308 with over 9000 rounds through it, and the only blemishes are from me scratching it. Did you call and inquire about your paint issue? If it was done at the custom shop, I'm sure Glenn would have helped you out. Otherwise, I'm glad to hear you enjoy your barrel. Was it a factory Savage he wrapped?
Wait. You sold your JP barrel and bought a Dracos (or 3, I guess)? What barrel are they using under the straight jacket material, Faxon, BHW? Did you ask them?
I've run my LRP 07 in .260 for a couple years now. It was far from a "squirrelly (sic) bitch" to load for and can shoot circles around many bolt rifles.
And also, JP's barrels come with the headspaced bolt, which adds to their cost.
Dracos recommends you put match grade ammo (PRIME, BH, FGMM) through them for maximum accuracy results. Have you tried any factory ammo?
That's a bunch of bullshit. You can get better results from one of those 89.00 Bergara barrels.
Let this be a lesson unto you: don't fuck up the mojo JP created when he spun that barrel into that upper receiver.
I do hope you get this issue fixed. I think we all want to know what barrel Dracos is using, so we'll wait here...
I've run my LRP 07 in .260 for a couple years now. It was far from a "squirrelly (sic) bitch" to load for and can shoot circles around many bolt rifles.
And also, JP's barrels come with the headspaced bolt, which adds to their cost.
Dracos recommends you put match grade ammo (PRIME, BH, FGMM) through them for maximum accuracy results. Have you tried any factory ammo?
That's a bunch of bullshit. You can get better results from one of those 89.00 Bergara barrels.
Let this be a lesson unto you: don't fuck up the mojo JP created when he spun that barrel into that upper receiver.
I do hope you get this issue fixed. I think we all want to know what barrel Dracos is using, so we'll wait here...
