1st safe

[kstraughen]

Re: 1st safe

I got mine a while ago you really have to anchor it down. since then 3 of my friends have got theirs. there are good safes

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: 1st safe

It's difficult to objectively judge if a safe is "good" or "bad" until it's actually put to the test of a burglary or fire. The only real standardized metric is a UL security label.

It's primary purpose is to protect against fire and burglary. Most of us will never see that. No gun safe manufacturer is going to do promotional demos that show their safe being breached.

Until then, it's a box to place all your stuff in and the most anyone can do is give a review based off personal experiences with cosmetic appearance, fit and finish, convenience, ease of storage or organization, creature features, and if you can fit as many guns as the product claims it can fit.

 

[Shootnjunky]

Re: 1st safe

Screw the safe build a vault

 

[Brett_B]

Re: 1st safe

I'm also looking at safes, is it ok to bolt it directly to a painted concrete basement floor?

I've seen some say you need a rubber mat for a moisure barrier under the safe. I've also seen some say to set the safe on either hockey pucks or 2x4's to keep it off of the concrete.

I don't have moisture coming up through the basement concrete but was curious about others experiences.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: 1st safe

Some people keep it on the factory pallet, bolt it down, and put wood trim around the safe so it looks like it's on a plinth or platform.

 

[DOA]

Re: 1st safe

I put a piece of plywood down to protect it some from rust. Steel and concrete react sometimes.

 

[Brett_B]

Re: 1st safe

Ok thanks for the pointers.

 

[Hammertime]

Re: 1st safe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I absolutely, completely disagree with the idea of buying bigger than you need. Logistically, and security-wise you're better off buying a second safe if you outgrow your current one.

Reasoning?

Split your eggs in two baskets. Double the burglar's working time to access the same quantity of assets and more than halve your risk if the burglar is only aware of one safe. In fact, you could purchase two different levels of protection and use one for more valuable goods and one for less valuable goods and allocate the storage of your collection accordingly.

All gun safe safes are going to be roughly the same, no matter what a salesman tells you. They come up with BS marketing jargon, throw in locking bolts, slick videos, glossy paint, and bonus lighting but they're all just variations on sheet metal boxes with most using sheetrock for "fire insulation", not plate steel or composites (AMSEC's BF and HS series, Graffunder, Brown, and a couple other lesser-known companies being exceptions).

Also one must realize the fire ratings are worthless. Every gun safe company uses a different "independant lab" to obtain their fire ratings so one company might claim 2hrs@1500 and another claims 1.5hrs @ 1750. It's like shopping for mattresses between chain stores. You can't make direct comparisons when everyone uses a different test. The only standardized fire rating standard is Underwriter's Laboratories and no gun safes carry a UL fire rating.

If you're putting irreplaceable photographs and critical documents, or memory storage devices into your gun safe, you've bought yourself a false sense of security. Safes have specific design functions. It's why a burglary safe or fire safe exists. The gun safe industry tries to convince you their safe is good for safely storing all sorts of goods, from photos and electronics to heirlooms guns. It's outright phony advertising. Buy yourself a small document fire "safe" or media "safe" (the ones with the flimsy key locks) like a Sentry or Fireking and place that inside your gun safe. The only containers that can guarantee photos and electronic media survive are UL 125 or UL 150 media safes which keep internal temperatures under 125F and 150F respectively. </div></div>
I agree, that was my thought when ordering my first safe. Bought a Bighorn 19ECB from Costco 560.00 delivered. I'm sure someone will have something to say, but it got great reviews and I could not beat the price. Will it hold everything I want? no, but it will hold everything I need at the moment and down the road I can get another. And I can still buy ammo and that new DBM. Plus, the logistics of moving and locating a big ass safe in my house was another factor.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: 1st safe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hammertime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bought a Bighorn 19ECB from Costco 560.00 delivered. I'm sure someone will have something to say, but it got great reviews and I could not beat the price. </div></div>

Some day your local meth heads will applaud your purchase.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: 1st safe

A safe is a manor investment because you never get your money back out of it when you decide to upgrade either in size or to a better safe. Also the typical "safes" aren't really safes, they're RSC's (residential storage container). All it will do is keep honest people honest and offer some fire protection. A smash and grab thief can defeat most of them with a good ax, sawzall, or prybar all of which most people have laying around their house. Not to mention most of them even if bolted down can be drug out of the house with a chain and loaded up by two strong people.

Another thing to think about if you live in a rural area is fire protection. If you're away from home if could take a while for somebody to see the fire and call, and also a decent bit of time for a volunteer fire department to respond. Even if the fire is found quickly your house could burn to the ground before help arrives.

I recommend a GOOD safe with a minimum of 2 hour fire rating. A safe that carries that much rating is going to offer great burglary resistance and be heavy enough that people aren't getting it out without some equipment. Sturdy safe is a great example.

My recommendation though is craigslist and eBay. You can get TL30 and TL60 fire proof safes for dirt cheap. There's a massive diebold on eBay right now for $3300 that is probably a $15k safe. I got my diebold on eBay for $350 and had to make the trip to NY to get it which wasn't bad. It's got a 4 hour fire rating for paper which is more than you need for guns and ammo. It's also TL30 rated for burglary. In the end I got an amazing safe for less than the cost of a cheap fire proof 24 gun safe after the cost and the trip. Getting it in was the only issue with the 4500lbs weight but luckily my next door neighbor had a backhoe that I used to unload it and bring it to the patio. After that it was all muscle with 2x4's and pipes.

Shop around and do it right the first time regardless of whether you go new or used.

 

[SPfeiffer]

Re: 1st safe

I have several buddies with high dollar firearms... Kreighoff Perazzi Bereatta, Browning that I know of.. not sure what other goodies they have.. and they all have Cannon's

Thats what I plan to get.. Cannon 80 gun safe. My #1 concern is theft and that will deter everybody! I am really not concerned with fire at all maybe 5% If the house burns I have bigger problems than the gun collection!

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: 1st safe

A cannon won't deter crap especially a professional thief. Even an amateur would get to thinking when the 10-14ga steel sides dent when smacked with a hammer. Anybody who knows what they're doing is going to go to town and be in it with little effort. It's thin sheet metal and drywall, that keeps honest people honest at best. That big safe will just make them want in it more. More reward = more effort.

If somebody is locking up a high dollar collection in a RSC and expecting theft protection they are a fool.

 

[jasonk]

Re: 1st safe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hammertime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bought a Bighorn 19ECB from Costco 560.00 delivered. I'm sure someone will have something to say, but it got great reviews and I could not beat the price. </div></div>

Some day your local meth heads will applaud your purchase.</div></div>

I have a Bighorn safe, don't knock em til you've seen them, very well made for the money.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: 1st safe

Dont' go in youtube and read up on them then.

You can break into one with a framing hammer and a screwdriver.

 

[Hammertime]

Re: 1st safe

I never said my choice was the best or smartest. My expanding collection (thank you everyone here) needed to find a home ASAP. And it is far safer now than before. To the OP, paulL01, obviously go with the best you can afford. Hopefully someday I will have 2 or 3 grand to spend on a better safe and will upgrade. 9H, thanks for biting and offering those kind words of wisdom and thoughtful opinion. And for assuming the "local meth heads", it's such a problem here, will be able to find the safe to begin with. My regret is that it is made in China and will take the hit for that.

 

[jeo556]

Re: 1st safe

SASSdriver,

Not to be a dick but do you just look at a Cannon and proclaim that nobody's getting in based on your x-ray vision/safe building expierence/safe cracking expierence? Seriously, just because some guy you know has one filled with expensive guns doesn't mean shit. Or is your determination of the cannon safe based on realworld accounts of attempted break-ins that you choose not to mention in your previous post. Again, I'm not trying to be a instigator but rather point out how silly one sounds when using that type of judgemnet to make proclamations on safe quality.

For your reading pleasure, a Cannon 80 gun safe weights between ~780 and 950 pounds, a Amsec BF series rated to hold half as many guns weights in at nearly 1300 lbs. That Cannon don't seem to well made now, does it?

EDIT TO ADD: Even though the AMSEC safe I offered for comparison is ~4x as heavy for a given storage capacity I still realize that it's still a speedbump at best.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: 1st safe

There are no standards in the gun safe world. There are standards in the commercial safe world for insurance. You need a B-rate safe just to store a maximum of $2,000 in insurable cash . That is, 1/4" solid steel plate body and a solid 1/2" solid plate steel door. For 20 sheets of paper. Only at the highest trim levels do some gun safes start to approach 1/4" thick walls.

I can pick up a $30 carbide metal-cutting blade for a circular saw and split open a B-rate safe in 5 minutes. A RSC isn't even an insurable rating. Any home power tool will open a RSC in short order. The sooner folks realize the strengths and weaknesses of their security, the better they can layer their security. With dogs, alarms, hardened entry points and good neighbors, it becomes less of an issue.

There is a reason why no gun safe companies can make commercial safes, and only a couple commercial safe companies bother to make a gun safe line. People buy into the gun safe mythos. I'm currently looking at a small TL-15 safe with an internal volume of 14x14x12". It weighs over 750lbs. Most folks don't want to deal with a 5000lb safe for logistical reasons and its understandable. The market reflects the price and weight people are willing to deal with. Simply, don't convince yourself a sub>1000lb safe that's twice the size is just as good just because slick gun safe marketing says so. That extra 4000 lbs serves a barrier purpose. With all the torture tests that gun safe manufacturers are proud to put out (some even involving cutting torches) notice not a single one involves drilling a hole or using a sawzall, or attacking the walls? Buy the best you reasonably can and ammend weaknesses with other security layers.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: 1st safe

I just looked at the page for Cannon's 80 gun safe, the Armory Series 64. Your primary concern is burglary protection. Cannon didn't even achieve a UL RSC rating on this model. A safe that is 72"x48"32" that weighs only 944lbs has very little substance. By comparison, AMSEC's HS7943 TL-15 (the lowest UL commercially-insurable security level) guns safe is similarly sized at 79"x43"x29.5" (actually 10% smaller in exterior volume) but weighs 6,840lbs.

The particular Cannon 80 gun safe offers no real burglary protection against any thief with more than two braincells to rub together. Luckily most thieves are stupid and will smash your handle, smash your lock, then give up. Occasionally you'll find one that grabs power tools from your garage. That 80 gun safe won't stop a power tool. It won't stop a pry attack. Cannon wants $3,212 MSRP. The only value it offers is storage space, but not security.

Looking at the features:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Massive 4” steel composite door</div></div>
Actually that's not a composite door by the definition used by the commercial safe industry. 4" implies 4" of barrier material in the form of aggregate and steel. Cannon's door is 4" thick because 3" of it is a frame of empty space used up by the boltwork assembly. The door steel thickness is formed by folding 12ga sheet metal on brakes to give the illusion of solid steel. In fact, it's only about 1" of actual door thickness formed by two folds of 12ga steel, sandwiching 2-3 layers of drywall. By comparison to the HS7943, it has a composite body construction of 3.5" and a door composite structure of 2.75" consisting of 1" solid plate steel with the rest being a poured aggregate barrier.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1” active-locking bolts</div></div>
Their photo shows a total of five bolts down a vertical span of 66-68". That's one 1" diameter bolt per linear foot. The bolts are retained in a door frame of 12ga sheet metal. The bolts rest against a 12ga sheet metal body. You might be able to get away with this on a UL-rated plate safe with a 1.5" solid steel plate door resting against a 1" plate steel body, but a 12ga sheet metal body and 12ga sheet metal door doesn't provide rigidity from prying when coupled with 1" thick mild steel bolts. See the infamous "Security On Sale" video.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">High-security commercial grade Type 1 electronic lock</div></div>
There is no such thing as a "Type 1" lock. They probably meant UL Group 1 lock, and safe manufacturers that offer such a lock will list the lock by brand (usually LaGard, Sargent & Greenleaf, or Kaba Mas). If Cannon used a well-respected "commercial grade" lock, they wouldn't hesitate to use the name.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Triple fin intumescent cold smoke expandable seal that expands many times its size when exposed to heat</div></div>
I have no problem with this.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3 layers extra-hard, 60+ RC steel hard-plate protects the lock</div></div>
I have no problem with this, assuming a burglar had the advanced knowledge to try a lock-punch attack or wanted to drill the lock. A burglar with this kind of knowledge will probably recognize this safe is made with very thin metal and will breach the body instead.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Truelock internal hinges</div></div>
Internal hinges weaken fire protection. There is no fire barrier where the internal hinge work takes up space. Internal hinges take up interior space. Internal hinges serve no security benefit over exterior hinges. In fact, it would put more stress on the hinges because they're much longer, and leveraged more than direct external hinges. Like most generic thieves, most generic buyers assume hinges are a weak point and that internal hinges are somehow better. In an odd way, that misconception would benefit safes with external hinges from generic burglars because they'd waste time attacking external hinges.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
3-spoke handle</div></div>
Irrelevent to security

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unibody construction delivers maximum ruggedness and strength</div></div>
Unibody (of 12ga steel) construction

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Predrilled bottom for bolting to floor</div></div>
A good precaution to prevent burglars from moving the safe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heavy 12-gauge steel for long term durability</div></div>
12-ga steel for durability, but not security.

Listed under "Available Options":
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Commercial grade Group 2 lock with key-locking dial</div></div>
Why would I downgrade to a Group 2 lock when they advertise a Group 1 lock as standard equipment?

If you really do have friends keeping five-figure guns in a 12-ga sheet metal safe without layered security like reinforced doors, walls, windows, an alarm system, dogs, and other measures, then it really is a false sense of security.

 

[Brett_B]

Re: 1st safe

Can you guys share some news stories where criminals were smart enough to strategically drill holes in a residential safe door to crack it open? I'm sure it's happened but I haven't seen any news reports of it so I'm curious how common it really is.

Most of the home theft crime I have seen (including once when our house was robbed in college) has involved grabbing what was easy to get to and easily sold for cash. If it’s all you can afford for now, it’s certainly better to have a “cheap” safe then nothing at all.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: 1st safe

You don't need to drill holes in a RSC to get into it, you've been watching too many movies.

A good 5-6 foot pry bar will pop the bolts right passed the thin sheet metal once you get it on its back. A ax, or sawzall will open up as big of a hole as you wish in the sides or back like a hot knife through butter.

Or they'll just wrap a chain around it and yank it out of the house with a truck and cut it open later.

All three of these has happened more than you think. You don't have to be a professional safe cracker to get into a RSC. Your typical dumbass criminal can do it with ease.

 

[Brett_B]

Re: 1st safe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You don't need to drill holes in a RSC to get into it, you've been watching too many movies.

A good 5-6 foot pry bar will pop the bolts right passed the thin sheet metal once you get it on its back. A ax, or sawzall will open up as big of a hole as you wish in the sides or back like a hot knife through butter.

Or they'll just wrap a chain around it and yank it out of the house with a truck and cut it open later.

All three of these has happened more than you think. You don't have to be a professional safe cracker to get into a RSC. Your typical dumbass criminal can do it with ease. </div></div>

This is funny. You get one guy who says "look at youtube movies about these" when talking about how easy they are to open, and then when I ask about news stories were this has actually happened I get a response of "you have been watching too many movies".

Of course there are 100 ways to break into a metal box, it’s nothing new. Obviously you want to install any safe in a manner that makes it as difficult as possible to break in to.

So I asked my question because of the comments below, but I will ask you the same question since you say it “happens more then you think”. I don't care about what the specific method is. Can you share some news stories where criminals were smart enough to bring steel cutting tools to open a safe? Again, I'm sure it's happened, but I can't remember the last time I saw a news story about a safe cracker, so I'm curious how common it really is.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dont' go in youtube and read up on them then.

You can break into one with a framing hammer and a screwdriver. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have no problem with this, assuming a burglar had the advanced knowledge to try a lock-punch attack or wanted to drill the lock. A burglar with this kind of knowledge will probably recognize this safe is made with very thin metal and will breach the body instead.
</div></div>

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: 1st safe

You asked about criminals drilling locks which is why I made the comment I did. That doesn't go down except for people who really know what they're doing and if they do have the know how to crack a lock they aren't going for somebody's gun collection in a RSC. They've got bigger scores. Both of the people you quoted reiterated the same thing I said, they aren't drilling locks on a RSC.

You aren't going to find news articles about the details of break ins, not gonna happen. News reporters don't write about that sort of thing anymore. A murder gets a lot more attention than some bubba's safe getting broken into.

The fact is news articles or not people's shitty RSC's get broken into and/or taken entirely on a daily basis. Just because you don't hear it on the news every night doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Unless you pour concrete surrounding the entire safe except for the door they will get it out. A big prybar or a wedge and good sized hammer is all that's needed to overcome concrete anchors. Once that's done all they need to do is flop it over. If they have access to a side, rear, or top they don't even need to bust the anchors to get in it.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: 1st safe

Why would a residential burglary involving a compromised residential safe be more newsworthy than any other number of hundreds of residential burglaries that happen every day without ending up on the news? Simply because a safe was involved?

Here's a small sampling of photos. If anyone has more details on some of these cases or makes/models, please feel free to add it.

Brand/line? Pick-axe. Details fuzzy. IIRC it was used to store coins at a commercial location but I could be incorrect. Big mistake. Sheet metal skin on body opened. Door untouched (thief was slightly smarter than the type that would attack the door)

Liberty Centurion series. Two-handed sledgehammer or fire axe. Est 5 minutes. Been floating around the Internet for a while.

Another Liberty Centurion series. Appears to be basic hand tools. Safe remained intact. Typical burglar attack: smash dial, smash lock, try to work open a corner. Stupid thief and lucky owner.

Brand/line? Prybar attack. Time unknown. Pried open. Entry gained. Carrier bar deformed. Folded sheet metal frame deformed.

Heritage safe, appears to be Regal series perhaps? Time unknown. Pried open. Entry gained. That's a solid 1/4" or 3/8" plate door. Door did not bend. Boltwork and carrier bar appear to be intact. 1/8" folded-frame sheet metal body deformed instead of the door or carrier bar and boltwork.

Liberty Colonial series. Time unknown. Pried open. Entry gained. Carrier bar deformed. Folded sheet metal frame deformed.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: 1st safe

More photos.

Remington safe, line unknown. Perhaps Silver series based on hardware and bolt size. Six-foot prybar attack with several screwdrivers. Pried open. Entry gained. Carrier bar severely deformed. Folded sheet metal frame deformed.

Winchester safe. Series unknown (hinge style doesn't match with any current gun safes). Smashed open. Entry gained. Time was cited at three minutes. Outer skin pounded off with one-handed sledge hammer.

Another Winchester safe. This time the criminal used torch. Torched open. Entry gained. The criminal wasn't very bright as they spent time trying to cut off hinges. Eventually they just cut open the body

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: 1st safe

Another batch.

Another Winchester. A purchase was made between the frame and door, whereby a Hi-lift jack was inserted and used to open the safe. Pried open. Entry gained. Carrier bar severely deformed. Folded frame sheet metal body deformed.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: 1st safe

Just to make you all feel better, here is a photo of a B-rated commercial depository safe, a container that actually meets an insurance underwriter's standards to store a certain amount of assets. It's got a solid 1/4" plate body, a solid plate steel frame to support the boltwork on a solid 1/2" plate steel door. It was cut open with an angle grinder and sawzall, using a prybar to bend back the cut tabs around the bolts. Cut open. Entry gained. IIRC the thieves were obviously caught because the tools and money in the photo. Apparently they took too long.

It's worth noting anyone could make the same cuts in about one minute with a widely-available power tool from a box store and a specific $30 blade. Not even B-rated safes provide a lot of barrier against the right tools. Very few gun-specific safes marketed to consumers even offer anything equal or exceeding a B-rated construction. I can count them on one hand.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: 1st safe

That ladies and gentleman is how you own a thread. Nice pics.

Buy a decent safe people.

 

[ROK]

Re: 1st safe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEGA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Last I saw Lowes (yes THAT Lowes as in the Home Improvement place) had a pretty good price on the Fat Boy Jr.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_141134-1028...safe&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=gun+safe&facetInfo=

In my case they had it ready to deliver faster than I had the spot in my house ready for it. Take a look online since I doubt your local place would have one. </div></div>

Good find...

 

[Yama Arashi]

Re: 1st safe

Thanks for all those pics Cesiumsponge.

It's actually amazing how secure safes aren't, given the thief has the time and tools to get into it. There isn't a whole lot out there that CAN'T be broken into, and especially when dealing with the type of safes usually found in residentials.

I suppose it ultimately comes down to layers of protection, and hoping the thieves don't have the time, knowledge or tools to gain access.

Exterior motion lights, alarm system (that can't have the notification system cut off) some good dogs, etc. Stack it up.
Whatever it takes to limit their time as much as possible and add as much inconvenience as is possible.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: 1st safe

Pretty much. A safe is a unit of time. The more secure the safe, the more time you buy. However its only one piece of the equation. You can usually make up a weak link by strengthening another. If you lived in a bunker, you could leave your guns out in the open. If you had an alarm system with motion sensors, glass break sensors, dogs, hardened doors, a security camera system, good neighbors, and a quick police response time, you could get away with a cheap Stack-On safe in a closet.

I just don't like it when people feel a consumer gun safe offers a level of protection that isn't realistic because of marketing literature or sales people. It's all about risk assessment. Most thieves will smash the lock and handle, which doesn't do anything. Once in a while you'll get one that is marginally brighter and will grab power tools. Gun safes offer very little resistance to power tools. People will have to gamble with what they believe will be a plausible risk to guard against. A commercial safe provides no protection if someone points a gun to your spouse'a head demanding the combination.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Re: 1st safe

So, on that note what safes do you guys recommend? Say between a $3000-$5000 budget?

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: 1st safe

What internal volume so you need? Exterior size limitations? Weight limitations? Desired security level? Desired fire protection?

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: 1st safe

For those that wondering how thich a certain gauge is, here is a link. http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/scales/sheetmetal.html

I must say, these pictures are disturbing!! 3-5 minutes to get into a safe is unreal! No wonder all the safe companies show attacks on the door. Lets see some videos with a diamond tip blade, sawzall etc on the top or sides..

So is it safe to say that NO safe can go un-defeated? Whether its a $1000 safe or $10,000 safe, I guess all you are buying is thickness of metal?

I have a Liberty Franklin and it was all I can afford at $2300.. But damn, these pics make me wonder if I should have saved up more money before I made a purchase.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: 1st safe

Commercial composite burglary safes use a thin inside and outside steel shell to hold in an aggregate barrier. Only the TL15 and TL30 security levels will you really find plate steel safes. Anything more secure uses an aggregate with things like carbide, corundum, and ceramic to slow or defeat special tooling, along with giant plates of stainless or copper to defeat torches.

A steel plate safe needs to have a 1" plate body and 1.5" plate door to stand a chance in obtaining a TL-15 rating, the lowest of the high security ratings available. This would be an E-rated construction.

Keep in mind many of the above safes were opened with hand tools that exceed the limits placed by the UL RSC test parameters. You can't use a sledgehammer or a 6' prybar for the RSC test, but a thief doesn't care. Therefore the peace of mind is very low with the RSC tag. Does a safe barely pass 5 minute of hand tool attack? Or can it withstand 15, 30, or even over 60 minutes with such an attack? The RSC label doesn't let you know which safe is better. Its just a pass/fail test.

This is why you see gun safe companies show mainly pry attacks and no attacks on the body. You can beef up the door and frame area with sheet metal to make it reasonably pry-resistant to normal household hand tools. It's a lot harder to beef up a 10ga sheet metal body without adding more steel (and cost and weight). Some companies even show torch attacks by utilizing a stainless steel plate. No gun safe company has released a video of their product withstanding a hand drill, a saw, or grinder for good reason. Plenty of metal-working tool companies out there have demo videos of their products. Those will give a fair idea of how quick it is to open up a B-rate or lower rated safe.

 

[kingjr]

Re: 1st safe

very disturbing indeed!

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: 1st safe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SilentStalkr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, on that note what safes do you guys recommend? Say between a $3000-$5000 budget? </div></div>

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIEBOLD-TL30-BAN...=item4d0547e74e

Something like that. Watch ebay and something in your area will pop up. I got a huge double door diebold with a TL30 rating and a 2 hour fire rating for papers so guns would be fine for much longer. I paid $300 for it and had to go to NYC to pick it up which wasn't bad. I see similar deals on their all the time, you just need to hop on them quick.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: 1st safe

Contact a local safe and vault guy. Ask a bank or jewelry business who services their equipment. These guys usually get used safes from businesses that upgrade, leave, or go out of business. They service the mechanisms, put some fresh paint, and turn around and sell them at 50%+ off new pricing. If you don't want fresh paint and do it yourself, it'll be even cheaper. They usually aren't listed online. Many aren't even in the phone book.

Check Craigslist too. There's a lot of junk to sort through but there are some gems occasionally. Right now in the Seattle listings, there is an AMSEC 1814 sized composite Amvault (either TL-15 or TL-30) for $300 ($2000 new). Not suitable for rifles obviously, but a hell of a safe for documents, jewelry, handguns, suppressors, etc. There is also a 3920lb Bernardini JV6836 TL-30 composite jewelvault with a mechanical combination and auxillary high secuirty key lock. It measures 74X43X34" (68x36x26 internal) for $3500 (probably $8000 new 10+ years ago) and would make an incredible gun safe. I'd have to tear out my drywall and doors to move a 36" deep safe (34" plus another 2" for the hinges and handles) into the house. Otherwise I'd have jumped on the listing already.

Hell, depending on where you live, it might be worth the additional $1500+ to get it freighted and installed by an expert safe tech crew. It'll cost you half a Graffunder and look half as nice, but offer commercial burglary resistance and security. I'd definitely have a professional safe tech inspect the boltwork and lock, and service as/if required unless that work was already documented by the last owner. One bad thing about high-security safes is your local locksmith won't be too familiar with them. They might even set off the relockers in trying to fix the current problem and leave you with a very, very expensive bill from a qualified safe tech to fix. It's like having a general garage mechanic working on a Formula 1 race car.

If you're looking for a new tool-rated safe for guns, you can pick up something like a AMSEC Amvault CF6528 TL-30 for about $4k new if you know where to shop. If you jump just past the $5k budget, that'll get you into AMSEC's new TL-30x6 CFX582820. Both are American-made. That's a TL-30 rating on all six sides, not just the door. Neither are very big inside compared to the gun safes we typically see, so it would be fairly cramped for a larger collection. Of course, that excludes shipping. The cheapest prices also tend to be from warehouse Internet stores so you're probably not going to get any technical expertise or help from those folks. At that price range, if you have no qualms about Chinese products, International and Original make comparably sized/security safes, and so does Mutual (I don't know if the larger models are South African or imported from the far east).

Of course, you're going to be dealing with some serious weight issues, and you have to ask yourself if you'd be better off buying a higher end RSC instead of a commercial safe for $2000-3000 and spending the remaining $2000-3000 on beefing up your other security layers and visual deterrents like cameras, signage, and sensors on all entrances and windows.

 

[melloyello]

Re: 1st safe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig716</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look for the biggest one with the best fire rating in your budget!
</div></div>
That's probably as close to the best answer you will get. The only thing I can add to that is make sure it's got locking bars on more than one side of the door.

 

[Shootnjunky]

Re: 1st safe

Wow, Talk about making me feel like my stuff is unprotected.

 

[Whit]

Re: 1st safe

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shootnjunky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Screw the safe build a vault </div></div>

I had the same idea. I am going to have a vault built and a safe vault door installed when I have my house built.


For now I just bought a Cannon Armory 80 gun safe for $1100 (MSRP $2400) as a Black Friday deal.

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: 1st safe

Put a safe inside the vault. Dont think a vault is not hard to get in to.. All you have is concrete, hopefully solid reinforced concrete..<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: whit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shootnjunky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Screw the safe build a vault </div></div>

I had the same idea. I am going to have a vault built and a safe vault door installed when I have my house built.


For now I just bought a Cannon Armory 80 gun safe for $1100 (MSRP $2400) as a Black Friday deal. </div></div>

 

[wdebo]

Re: 1st safe

After reading this thread there must be no way to secure your firearms. The homes I have built with vaults in the basement if one thinks they are easy to get into you are crazy. The thief will have to bring a concrete saw and a jackhammer and will be working for a while.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: 1st safe

A "vault" is a vague term, just as a "safe" is a vague term that could include flimsy sheet metal RSCs to safes that can take thermic lance and torch attack for hours.

A vault could be nothing more than a cinder block structure with a storm door. Or it could be a modular system that will withstand multiple RPG and C4 shaped charge attacks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4biAMI1JsHk