I have a question for some more experienced match shooters. I started with a Ruger Precision rifle for the first 2 years. I had a defiance built at the end of the year and it’s substantially smoother and the trigger tech trigger is light years better than the Timney in the RPR. My initial plan was to keep them both. use the RPR for the club matches/practice and use the Defiance for larger 2 day matches and RTC. Save the barrel life on the Defiance sort of thing.I used the RPR in a local match yesterday and it just wasn’t like shooting the Defiance. Kind of like going from a Cadillac to a Hyundai. Now I’m just toying with the idea of using the Defiance all of the time and just buying more barrels for that rifle. Or my second thought was to build another complete identical rifle to the Defiance but that somehow seems counter productive. Not sure why. Anyways what do you guys do? 2 rifles to manage or just more barrels for the 1 and shoot the snot out of it? Thanks for the help.
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PRS Talk 2 rifles..1 for practice 1 for matches?????
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I was in the same boat as you towards the end of last year. I had my trued Remington 700 I started with two years ago thought I could use this as a trainer and that’ll save barrel life. I should have just bought a really nice action from the start because Ive since upgraded to an Impact and I love it! And I am just going to switch barrels on it.
You’d be far better off just using one rifle with a really nice action, trigger, scope, and stock and all you’d have to do is replace barrels on it instead of switching back and forth between the lesser of the two rifles and also trying to come up with everything to make them two like each other which no matter what you do to the RPR it’ll still be the Hyundai in the end.
I don’t know what caliber you are running but with the barrel life of a 6.5 Creedmoor being around 2500 rounds It’ll last the better part of a year depending on how much you are shooting it.
You’d be far better off just using one rifle with a really nice action, trigger, scope, and stock and all you’d have to do is replace barrels on it instead of switching back and forth between the lesser of the two rifles and also trying to come up with everything to make them two like each other which no matter what you do to the RPR it’ll still be the Hyundai in the end.
I don’t know what caliber you are running but with the barrel life of a 6.5 Creedmoor being around 2500 rounds It’ll last the better part of a year depending on how much you are shooting it.
There's no right or wrong answer here. For most, it's a matter of economy. If you budget allows, a clone training rifle keeps the wear and tear off your game day rifle. If budget is better spent on ammo, I'd recommend sticking with one rifle and have a second barrel ready to go. It'll be far less expensive, and from a training perspective, you eliminate even small differences between two rifles (although if they're truly clones - same optics - the difference will be very small if at all).
If you get both barrels cut and fitted at the same time, you'll only need an action wrench and barrel vise to change out barrels. Keep track of round count, especially if you're shooting a 6mm Creedmoor or other barrel burning cartridge. Plan mid-season barrel changes - give yourself time to confirm the original load still works in the new barrel. Or, be like the rest of us that make those changes right before a match.
If you get both barrels cut and fitted at the same time, you'll only need an action wrench and barrel vise to change out barrels. Keep track of round count, especially if you're shooting a 6mm Creedmoor or other barrel burning cartridge. Plan mid-season barrel changes - give yourself time to confirm the original load still works in the new barrel. Or, be like the rest of us that make those changes right before a match.
I think the most important thing is to do what works for you and go from there.
That being said, I think training should be as realistic as possible, so I practice with my match rifle. I have some barrels that I save for matches and I try not to burn them up, but I like to practice with as close a match setup as possible.
The goal of my training is to get as much relegated to the subconscious as possible and switching between two very different rifles doesn’t sound very appealing.
That being said, I think training should be as realistic as possible, so I practice with my match rifle. I have some barrels that I save for matches and I try not to burn them up, but I like to practice with as close a match setup as possible.
The goal of my training is to get as much relegated to the subconscious as possible and switching between two very different rifles doesn’t sound very appealing.
I started out with the idea of swapping barrels back and forth on one rifle but ultimately settled on two identical rifles for convenience sake. Nice to have the trainer always ready to go out the door when you want to go practice, no swapping or prep needed. Also nice to not have the last minute pressure of one more range trip to change barrels, rezero and confirm just before a match - especially if I just want to do a bit of practice one or two days before the match with the trainer.
Yeah I definitely don’t want to switch barrels on the same rifle for practice/matches. I was just going to order 2 barrels at a time for the nicer rifle so when I shoot out the first one I’m ready to go with the second. I shoot a 6.5 CM but between local matches, practice, PRS/NRL matches, and riflemans team challenge matches I’ll have to change the barrel 1/2 to 3/4 of the way through the season. I like to pull my barrels at 2500 rounds. No rhyme or reason why.
I could afford to do an exact replica of my match rifle. I already have the scope but it’ll still cost me 3k-3.5k to do the barreled action/chassis and I don’t know if the benefit is really there for that amount of money.
I appreciate the input so far and it kind of confirms my thoughts. I can see the point where training with the Ruger is kind of counter productive because it’s very different than the Defiance.
I'll tell you the point which I arrived at, which may or may not be helpful. I tend to think we overthink the game when it comes to training rifles. I have found that whether I'm shooting my match gun, or a milspec AR, my fundamentals should be the same. I say this because some of the best training(IMHO) I found by accident. I had a buddy who lent me a completely stock AR-15 with a Vortex HS scope on it. I had a bunch of M855 lying around, so I hit the prairie dog town with it. It was not shooting great groups by any means with the crap ammo. At this particular prairie dog town where I shoot there is an old barn where I sneak into, stick a gamechanger on a slat where some siding has blown off, and shoot. Works really well to conceal myself. Long story short, the more I shot, the more I focused on that terrible 8 lb trigger pull, the more hits I started getting and at some very respectable distances for the setup.
The next time I took my match gun out, I couldn't believe how much better I was shooting. Positional shooting seemed waaaay easier and a nice crisp trigger was heavenly. I felt that crappy AR really improved my shooting. It made me think that an AR is really a great trainer because it makes you follow through. Any mistake is magnified exponentially. Just my 2 cents so take it for what worth.
The next time I took my match gun out, I couldn't believe how much better I was shooting. Positional shooting seemed waaaay easier and a nice crisp trigger was heavenly. I felt that crappy AR really improved my shooting. It made me think that an AR is really a great trainer because it makes you follow through. Any mistake is magnified exponentially. Just my 2 cents so take it for what worth.
I have 2 completely identical rifles aside from chambering. One chambered in 6xc for 2 day matches, and 1 chambered in .223 for club matches and practice. Both are MPA chassis, Kelbly Actions, Triggertech Diamonds, MTU profile bartlein barrels, MPA weight kits, NF ATACR 7-35x mil xt, and cans. I load for the 223 on my Dillon and it hammers. I highly recommend having a trainer rifle and having it identical to your match rifle is icing on the cake but building 2 customs can stretch some folks budgets.
When I think of a training rifle, two things come to mind:
1) cost savings (cost per round, barrel life, wear and tear, etc)
2) build fundamentals (train with a caliber that exploits fundamental more)
Figure out what benefits you're looking for. If it makes sense, then go for it!
1) cost savings (cost per round, barrel life, wear and tear, etc)
2) build fundamentals (train with a caliber that exploits fundamental more)
Figure out what benefits you're looking for. If it makes sense, then go for it!
I’d only use two totally different rifles if you could absolutely not even afford barrels for the main rifle.
If your budget doesn’t allow for a complete clone build, swap barrels. If your budget allows, build a complete clone.
Sell the RPR or use it as a backup/loaner rifle.
If your budget doesn’t allow for a complete clone build, swap barrels. If your budget allows, build a complete clone.
Sell the RPR or use it as a backup/loaner rifle.
Commonality. My 22LR trainer is a Rem 40X repeater. I also have 308, 6.5x47, 7SAUM, etc. All in McMillan A5 stocks, all feel and balance the same.
You can either have dedicated rifles, or swap barreled actions between stocks or chassis systems, but swapping barrels I believe would be cumbersome unless you have an AI or WTO quick change capability.
You can either have dedicated rifles, or swap barreled actions between stocks or chassis systems, but swapping barrels I believe would be cumbersome unless you have an AI or WTO quick change capability.
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T-Payne has done this for a while...last I talked with him in Alabama in ‘17 he was running 2 identical builds...one stayed ready and verified for big matches and the other got used in practice...said he was a big fan of that game plan and felt like it helped him
I have a trainer in 223 and my match rig in 6 Creedmoor. While they're not identical, they are very similar. I definitely feel like the 223 has been a useful training tool without having to deal with the shorter barrel life of the 6 Creedmoor on multiple rifles, and the 223 is cheaper on ammo, too.
Personally, I still think you will be further ahead (short term - first year or two) by simply having spare barrel(s) cut/prechambered for your action. You can usually swap them pretty easy. Putting 3-4000 rounds through a barrel is not something most shooters do unless they have tons of national 200+ round matches or they put 100+ rounds down range every weekend between matches all year long.
If buying second rifle as backup or match gun, you still need to learn your backup rifle and match rifle by shooting it: verify dope, check speeds, develop best load possible for your needs, etc. The problem with second rifle can be time: it takes extra time to keep two barrels up to date and shooting well.
I started by burning the piss out of my stock barrel (2500 rounds). Bought another barrel and bought separate rifle at same so I could practice with the other while installing new barrel on match rifle.
The advantage of second rifle is that you have ability to work on one (change barrel, tune, tweak, etc) and still shoot your matches/practice without second rifle. I use it backup in 223, 224V and 6.5CM for various practice types.
If I knew what I know today and I had to do it over and budget was no object, I'd buy two identical rifles in two calibers. After learning which one I liked more or performed better for matches/needs, I'd keep running that rifle for matches and use other as practice/backup.
If buying second rifle as backup or match gun, you still need to learn your backup rifle and match rifle by shooting it: verify dope, check speeds, develop best load possible for your needs, etc. The problem with second rifle can be time: it takes extra time to keep two barrels up to date and shooting well.
I started by burning the piss out of my stock barrel (2500 rounds). Bought another barrel and bought separate rifle at same so I could practice with the other while installing new barrel on match rifle.
The advantage of second rifle is that you have ability to work on one (change barrel, tune, tweak, etc) and still shoot your matches/practice without second rifle. I use it backup in 223, 224V and 6.5CM for various practice types.
If I knew what I know today and I had to do it over and budget was no object, I'd buy two identical rifles in two calibers. After learning which one I liked more or performed better for matches/needs, I'd keep running that rifle for matches and use other as practice/backup.
I have been using two almost identical rifles since around 2004. I use a .308 for practice and a 6.5 or 6mm for matches. Have them set up with the same scope, trigger pull and stock so they feel the same. I get the pro of longer barrel life with the .308 and don't waste barrel life practicing so I have a more actual in match time with the 6/6.5.
Rob,
Nowadays with the 6mm’s taking over, would you still recommend .308 for a trainer, or do you see 6.5 morphing into the new training round?
Having a .308 spun up for AI, as I want the extra recoil to exploit any weak points in my position.
But I had an interesting conversation will a top local shooter a few weeks ago. He prefers 6.5 trainer so he knows it was definitely him breaking a bad shot and not just some screwy with the wind.
He’s at a point where his positions are mostly solid, so he wants to eliminate another possibility of a missed shot during practice.
6mms have been used for years in these matches. That is what I started using in 2004 when the .308 moved to practice. The 6mm is not new in these matches.
I will continue to use my .308 as with a brake the recoil is not that much worse and I see no downside to it. I would rather get 8000+ rounds through a barrel than 2500 in a 6.5. You will be spending 3 barrels to get the same as the 1 .308 barrel.
As for the wind, it's part of the game. When practicing you need to practice everything and a wind call is part of that. That said most of the practice from positional/obstacles etc is inside 500 yards so wind won't be much of an issue with a good call.
Your local guy can do as he likes but I feel a .308 is a very good practice round and it's like swinging a weighted bat before going to bat. Makes the littler rounds feel like nothing in a match.
not sure if this fits but a long time ago i was told if you want to learn to drive don't do it in a nice car with power steering and an automatic transmission use the old truck with out any modern anything like no floor in spots, nothing like sweating your but off in a truck without power steering when you had to fight just to make a turn, and you could only pray for a cool breeze in the summer since the old truck windows did not open. nor did it have mirrors. It did not even have side windows. A manual trans shifting on a big hill in a city with way too many people and things that you could hit. learn the hard way makes newer cars a breeze to park anywhere or drive. He wanted a ride to the liqueur store he was just too drunk to drive himself and its fun to watch people struggle and then learn . i love the 308 its not great for buckin the wind and pitters out quick but you can learn how to over come that to a degree then move up to bigger n better things. sorry i rambled a bit .
I'm in the same camp with 2 identical rifles. .308 for club matches and .260 for others.
So my concern with a .223 trainer. Say I’ve got my match rifle dialed in, dope is spot on and gun shoots great. Put it in the safe then go fire a couple hundred rounds from a 223 to practice. I’ve now learned some valuable techniques for how to get steady in positional shooting, but I’ve also learned wind holds for a 223 not my 6mm. The matches I’ve been to everyone shoots well on calm days. Its the windy days that sepwrate the top guys from the average. Don’t we need to practice wind holds with our match rifles? I just feel like I’d learn more about my rifle, and still get same benefits of practicing positional by shooting it all the time and buying barrels.
That’s with the operating assumption the reason people miss in high winds is because they don’t know the wind holds for their cartridge.
I think you’ll find the biggest reasons is we don’t know how to read wind well.
What’s the difference in reading the wind on a practice day with a .223 (or any carriage), knowing what the hold is, and shooting it.
Vs
Match day, reading the wind, knowing the hold, and shooting your 6mm?
Unless you are at the very top top, most of your swing in points is going to be 600 yds and in. So, the .223 trainer isn’t going to cripple your wind reading holds enough to move you up or down the ladder much.
Now, if you’re a top 5/10 guy, then yea, missing a shot or two on the long distance stage/s is gonna be the difference in 1st and 10th. I’d say then, it makes more sense to train a lot with your match cartridge.
This isn’t a personal attack, but anyone who says “if I had practiced with my 6mm instead of my .223 I wouldn’t have shot so bad in the wind today” is making excuses for themselves. Even if subconsciously.
I think a bigger debate would be:
Which has more benefits as a training cartridge, .223 or .308?
I think there is some value in knowing what your cartridge does in certain conditions though.
Example:
When you have a wind speed of 8mph left to right, but when you are behind the gun you can see dirt or splash moving right to left, you know what your adjustment in your hole needs to be.
Solution to that:
Take both guns to range. If the winds or weather picks up to something that seems of training value, you switch from the training cartridge to the match cartridge.
So, on calm days, you get to save your barrel.
On shitty (good training) days, you opt to burn a little of that barrel as the training benefit outweighs the cost.
Example:
When you have a wind speed of 8mph left to right, but when you are behind the gun you can see dirt or splash moving right to left, you know what your adjustment in your hole needs to be.
Solution to that:
Take both guns to range. If the winds or weather picks up to something that seems of training value, you switch from the training cartridge to the match cartridge.
So, on calm days, you get to save your barrel.
On shitty (good training) days, you opt to burn a little of that barrel as the training benefit outweighs the cost.
This is my training theory that I’m develop as I go. I am not a top 5/10 shooter currently. So keep that in mind.
I have 3 cartridges for PRS and PRS training:
22 (vudoo)
.308/6mm (barrels for AI)
In practice, each one has a different purpose:
22: fundamentals with emphasis on trigger control. This is like dryfire with live results
.308:
1: fundamentals with emphasis on positions and recoil management. The recoil is going to exploit shitty positions
2: having to hold off plate further for wind. On calmer days, I will still have to hold a bit further. Keeps me out of the habit of “just hold edge of plate and see what happens.”
6mm:
Knowing what my match caliber does. This would be best described as “feel.” As the above example of what to do in adverse conditions
Jacob at RO describes it like throwing a football to someone. You don’t know exactly how far ahead to throw it, you just do it from experience and repitition.
I have no real use for .223 (except it’s fun as hell) as there is no training value I cannot get from the above cartridges.
I have 3 cartridges for PRS and PRS training:
22 (vudoo)
.308/6mm (barrels for AI)
In practice, each one has a different purpose:
22: fundamentals with emphasis on trigger control. This is like dryfire with live results
.308:
1: fundamentals with emphasis on positions and recoil management. The recoil is going to exploit shitty positions
2: having to hold off plate further for wind. On calmer days, I will still have to hold a bit further. Keeps me out of the habit of “just hold edge of plate and see what happens.”
6mm:
Knowing what my match caliber does. This would be best described as “feel.” As the above example of what to do in adverse conditions
Jacob at RO describes it like throwing a football to someone. You don’t know exactly how far ahead to throw it, you just do it from experience and repitition.
I have no real use for .223 (except it’s fun as hell) as there is no training value I cannot get from the above cartridges.
wind is relatable via BC/speed...if you can gauge the wind speed/direction correctly you can apply it to whatever...thats where knowing the BC/wind formulas for your bullets comes in handy
I agree with Morgan's comments. It's just a number... make your wind call at the start of the stage, write out your wind holds/bracket for your targets from your ballistic calculator, make corrections on the fly as needed. Doesn't matter if the wind hold is 0.2 or 3.8 mils.
As far as whether its more important to have a strong positional game or to have perfect wind calling ability, I lean more towards a strong positional game. If you can shoot 100% perfect on positional but are mediocre on wind calling, I think you've still got a solid chance at a top 10 finish. There's a second order benefit of a strong positional game in that it "frees your mind" so to speak.
If you have the ability to perfectly run a complex positional stage without thinking or stressing, now your mind is more much free to observe and react to your environment - both the wind around you or where the bullet is impacting downrange. It doesn't take super wind reading skills to say "Hey, the wind in my face is starting to blow harder". It just takes enough space in your head that you pay attention and notice that when you are shooting.
What Sheldon and Morgan said. You don't practice for the wind call but for the ability to have smooth movement and that will save time.
Yup two rifles, 223 and a 6 "cread more" same stock/scope/trigger etc etc. I'm all about the 223, 1000 pieces of brass for $100. I even have a load for it that I throw blc-2, a super cheap 62 grain bthp that I use for position practice.
I’ve heard of people using an identical rifle in an affordable and low recoiling cartridge like 223, to save money while practicing but still keeping the feel of the match rifle otherwise. If they were the same caliber, if it were me I would the get one rifle and practice with it and get really comfortable with it.
The problem with that is you burn out your match barrel practicing. The practice rifle is in a caliber with longer barrel life than the 6 or 6.5mm match rifles. That is the reason for the practice rifle.
I just ordered a .223 barrel and bolt for my vector. I don't plan to save any money with this set up but I will get to run a ton more ammo. I can shoot Long range 2x a week so running 6 Dasher all the time would get annoying when it comes to barrel life. The .223 should go to 5k rounds or more. I'll still shoot the Dasher barrel for practice but mostly longer range to work on wind calls. The .223 will be for working on positions, splits and speed.
Absolutely. Completely justifies another barrel or rifle. The gf and friends shoot my 223 so it's nice to have a extra rifle that's set on go all the time.
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